Social SGD: The hedgehogs are back in town.

[Kuraudo]

I remember us watching Sonic X during WHOBO3.
Sonic grabbed a missile and hurled it back. I remember shouting "**** you Samus" at some point.

LOL I totally remember that. Those were some awesome times.

If I ever find myself living in Texas or something for whatever reason, I'm gathering all the Sonic X episodes and we've gotta marathon it while ripping on as much as possible. Or....uhm, whatever you guys wanna do is fine. lol

 

[Sinister Slush]

No, that's a pretty good idea.
Let's rip on Super Mario World animated series while we're at it!

 

[Umby]

I hear Eggman is turning Texas into a wasteland with some super machine that causes extended periods of Drought. Will this be the end of Espy's Sonic as we know it!?

 

[Life]

I hear Eggman is turning Texas into a wasteland with some super machine that causes extended periods of Drought. Will this be the end of Espy's Sonic as we know it!?

Yeah, no.

ESPY
Te__X__as Ranger​

(Quick, somebody competent with photoshop!)

 

[WedginatorX]

Nope, trela will be

 

[Mr. Johan]

So what are the chances of starting a new matchup thread, and getting it off of the ground and making it stay active?

I could head it if need be, I don't really have much else to do this summer.

 

[Tesh]

I tried that, it didn't work. Espy says matchup discussions are pointless

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'm willing to try and keep it active. I want to help contribute in some ways, because this place desperately needs it.

 

[Kinzer]

*Ahem.*

Tesh is right to some degree. Whether or not he's actually quoting Espy makes no difference, doing a traditional matchup thread is all but too much work and for little benefit for anyone.

The more efficient thing to do is just leave it as a sort of place of inquiry where anyone who is having a particular problem with a certain matchup can post for advice, and get whatever criticism people have to offer.

Nevermind that sometimes it isn't always the best advice.

 

[Exceladon City]

TL;DR Theorycraft beats Match-Up Facts 70:30 or +3.

 

[Tesh]

You realize the matchup chart says we lose to Lucario as bad as Ganondorf does?

Gonna go train my Ganondorf for Trela now.....

 

[Kinzer]

You realize the matchup chart says we lose to Lucario as bad as Ganondorf does?

Gonna go train my Ganondorf for Trela now.....

Yeah~...

Have you thought of the people who made that?

Or how old that is?

Then again, I get the feeling I'm the only one here who is any bit optimistic about that MU, so fugg y'all or whatever I dunno.

I'ma **** errbody, even if I have to outplay them.

 

[Espy Rose]

Actually, I agree with the sentiment.
You'd probably have just as much difficulty with Sonic vs. Lucario as you would if you were an effective Ganondorf. Sounds about right.

And it wouldn't be completely pointless if we were able to get an effective discussion going on.
Also, I think you might want to read better, Tesh. I said it was pointless to have a STICKIED match up discussion.

 

[Kinzer]

Tell me in what regard Ganondorf has the same MU against Lucario as Sonic does.

Ganondorf doesn't even have the utility of being able to approach. He just hits stupid/scared people.

BRB gonna find an image that accurately depicts how hopeless it is for the old man.

'Kay I'm back, get a load of this reactionary image/MFW you say Ganon does just as good... or bad, however you want to look at it.

Spoiler

 

[Espy Rose]

Ganondorf can't commit, but neither can Sonic.

That, and standing Ganondorf is more intimidating than standing Sonic.

 

[Kinzer]

Ganondorf can't commit, but neither can Sonic.

That, and standing Ganondorf is more intimidating than standing Sonic.

... Hmm... I think this is going somewhere, and perhaps I should take it further.

How about this then. Sure, neither can commit, but then again, I don't think Sonic has to worry about that. ( Edit: Augh this was poorly brought up, I have to find a better way to present this.)

I also have reason to believe that people fear Ganon more than Sonic is for a few reasons.

1. There ain't no one out there patient or willing to use Sonic properly. The same can be argued for Ganon, but that brings me to my next point.

2. How many people use Ganon to begin with? I'm willing to think this can be summed in parts too, being that if you all of a sudden lose to Ganon, you're apparently super suckish; so that's more reason not to lose, and some people just crack under that particular pressure.

3. Matchup experience. I wanted to put this in the second point but afterall it sort of does give an element of surprise if there aren't that many chances to get a hands-on feel of how the matchup plays specifically. I am too lazy to look right now but I think it's even been proven statistically that Sonic just has more/better representation than Ganon, neverminds results to back up that Sonic is (obviously...(?)) a better character. Either suited or competitive play or in specific places, yes.

... This, is from a Sonic players perspective though. If only I could ask some of the people who have to play against (good) Sonics, I'd like to see what they think. In a perfect world Sonic is impossible to predict, but as it is I'm sure any of us who still play lose just because we aren't playing to our best abilities. Or even if we are, it isn't enough (at this time).

 

[Mr. Johan]

Getting your skull bashed in for 15-23% a hit, or put into a techchase position into a move that would bash your skull in, or dying off the top to a Dash Attack at less than 100% is a lot more intimidating than getting grabbed and thrown into a move that won't kill until 180%, getting thrown into a double-hitting move for about 20%, or getting hit by a 5% Dash Attack that doesn't kill until like 350.

 

[Kinzer]

Getting your skull bashed in for 15-23% a hit, or put into a techchase position into a move that would bash your skull in, or dying off the top to a Dash Attack at less than 100% is a lot more intimidating than getting grabbed and thrown into a move that won't kill until 180%, getting thrown into a double-hitting move for about 20%, or getting hit by a 5% Dash Attack that doesn't kill until like 350.

... Are you agreeing with me when I say people just have more to fear from Ganon (but might not actually be legitimately (threatening))?

If you aren't, I just cannot get a break around here~!

Yes yes, I understand Ganon hits like a @#$%ing truck when he does, but why is he getting in in the first place?

Seriously, I can't see how he gets hits in... if this wasn't taking into account human error.

*Ugh.* I don't think I want to bring it up again and beat a dead-horse. I'm just glad the techchase thing was brought up, it just tells you that when and if either can get inside their opponent, it's just matter of making the right guesses after that.

They're different in the regard that Sonic has other/more ways to make opportunities happen, while Ganon just gets more rewards for guessing right with his finishers.

I am still a person that values versatility over (heavy) investments. That much you can believe me on, or I wouldn't be playing Sonic because I don't feel any other character in this game (bar MK) has nearly the same amount of things to play around with... Though I'll be the first to tell you that having so much to think about leaves a lot of room open for frustration down the road... but that doesn't matter for the topic at hand. Sorry.

 

[Tesh]

Actually, I agree with the sentiment.
You'd probably have just as much difficulty with Sonic vs. Lucario as you would if you were an effective Ganondorf. Sounds about right.

And it wouldn't be completely pointless if we were able to get an effective discussion going on.
Also, I think you might want to read better, Tesh. I said it was pointless to have a STICKIED match up discussion.

Nope, I'm not talking about when you recently unstickied a bunch of stuff (why would i care about that?). I'm talking about when the matchup chart came out and you said it was pointless for non-BBR people to discuss things. Now that I think about it....thats also sort of what ESAM is saying over and over too.

... Are you agreeing with me when I say people just have more to fear from Ganon (but might not actually be legitimately (threatening))?

If you aren't, I just cannot get a break around here~!

Yes yes, I understand Ganon hits like a @#$%ing truck when he does, but why is he getting in in the first place?

Seriously, I can't see how he gets hits in... if this wasn't taking into account human error.

*Ugh.* I don't think I want to bring it up again and beat a dead-horse. I'm just glad the techchase thing was brought up, it just tells you that when and if either can get inside their opponent, it's just matter of making the right guesses after that.

They're different in the regard that Sonic has other/more ways to make opportunities happen, while Ganon just gets more rewards for guessing right with his finishers.

I am still a person that values versatility over (heavy) investments. That much you can believe me on, or I wouldn't be playing Sonic because I don't feel any other character in this game (bar MK) has nearly the same amount of things to play around with... Though I'll be the first to tell you that having so much to think about leaves a lot of room open for frustration down the road... but that doesn't matter for the topic at hand. Sorry.

I think Sonic poses a much more relevant threat to Lucario than Ganondorf, if you factor in his ability to camp and possibly time out. Ganondorf's best kill options (best chance of hitting) are Uair and Dash attack. They also just happen to be your best chances at landing hits in general and they don't kill well stale. I doubt Ganondorf would manage anything but a revenge kill before 100% against a good Lucario. And if we are talking bad Lucarios, I'm sure Sonic could kill them before 100 as well.

 

[Exceladon City]

OreoVersion1: MK = Lv. 3 X-Factor
OreoVersion1: "Hey, I'm mediocre in this game." *picks MK* "I stand a chance against Mid Level players now!"
Wedge: Lol shoutouts to nj
OreoVersion1: Got 'em.

Shoutouts to talking mad **** about people on AIM. looool

 

[Espy Rose]

Tesh, it's pointless because the BBR MU Chart is more "Dominant" than the character board charts.
You're still very, very welcome to do it.

Just realize that it doesn't hold as much weight.

And I still disagree with you. Ganondorf can camp just as well as Sonic against Lucario.
Killing before 100 for bad Lucarios? If you're gonna play that card, then Ganondorf can kill bad Lucarios before 80%.

 

[Kinzer]

Of course Ganon can probably camp.

The reason he is so bad/has a hard time in general is because he gets very few/no opportunities to camp. More than half the time he's forced to approach (... Juuuuust like Sonic~!).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Of course Ganon can probably camp.

The reason he is so bad/has a hard time in general is because he gets very few/no opportunities to camp. More than half the time he's forced to approach (... Juuuuust like Sonic~!).

And I still disagree with you. Ganondorf can camp just as well as Sonic against Lucario.
Killing before 100 for bad Lucarios? If you're gonna play that card, then Ganondorf can kill bad Lucarios before 80%.

Trent lost to Ganon, all this is Relevant now.

 

[Browny]

That match was extremely painful to watch.

Its not so much about camping ganondorf, as it is not treating him like MK and thinking all his moves are safe on block.

 

[Exceladon City]

Trent lost to Ganon, all this is Relevant now.

Damn, Slush out here namedroppin hella hard.

 

[Tesh]

Tesh, it's pointless because the BBR MU Chart is more "Dominant" than the character board charts.
You're still very, very welcome to do it.

Just realize that it doesn't hold as much weight.

And I still disagree with you. Ganondorf can camp just as well as Sonic against Lucario.
Killing before 100 for bad Lucarios? If you're gonna play that card, then Ganondorf can kill bad Lucarios before 80%.

I have no evidence to my point I suppose, other than "oh yea well why don't you use Ganondorf vs Trela!!". My point was that reliably landing something like Dair, Fsmash, or other early killers (as ganon), against lucario is about as likely as getting a half charged Fsmash, or an early gimp as Sonic. Which leaves other things like Uair and Dash attack, which are Ganondorfs 2 best punishers which leaves them stale.

Also, I don't think anyone here is trying to create a matchup discussion that "holds more weight" than your chart. Its about sharing information, experience and ideas about a matchup. I had a few aesthetic ideas for our own chart, but its not important at all to even have a chart imo. Just because it won't be useful to you, doesn't mean it won't be helpful to any of us.

Also according to the matchup chart, it wasn't dumb of me to counterpick Trela with Pokemon Trainer. So there, whoever laughed at me.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

most of texas isnt allowed to set off fireworks.

also this mu discussion is kinda silly, ganon is primarily bad for having alot of frame recovery on his moves. Doesnt mean hes not lethal in the right hands. That includes spacing tactics

 

[Kinzer]

Also according to the matchup chart, it wasn't dumb of me to counterpick Trela with Pokemon Trainer. So there, whoever laughed at me.

How far do you want to take this bro?

If you go by what MU charts tell you, you're doing it wrong if you aren't playing Lucario's worst MU.

... Not that I know who that is, nor do I care.

Doin' it wrong since December '08 and still proud... somewhat.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

mu charts are not the end all conclusion for a match up everyone knows this [or should] bad players look at match up charts and let other people decide the mu for them[this is why they never beat their problem match ups]. Good players do the opposite

 

[Kinzer]

[collapse="God I'm pathetic~!"]Pinklover1422 10:58 pm
hi

Pinklover1422 is available 10:58 pm
drunk and lookin for fun 4m ago Comment
KinzertheBrawler 10:58 pm
Uhm, hello.

Pinklover1422 10:58 pm
i hope you want to chat with a horny girl today... ;-)

KinzertheBrawler 10:59 pm
... As long as you're not a bot?

Pinklover1422 10:59 pm
what's a bot??

KinzertheBrawler 10:59 pm
Oh you know, an automated program designed specifically to get me to click on a weblink that more likely than not has worms in it.

Pinklover1422 11:00 pm
lick n slurp!

KinzertheBrawler 11:00 pm
Excuse me?

Pinklover1422 11:00 pm
i am a little busy right now, just got a new laptop trying to set my cam up..

KinzertheBrawler 11:01 pm
... But I didn't ask if you were busy?

Pinklover1422 11:01 pm
i have a fetish for being on camera h

KinzertheBrawler 11:01 pm
Well, that's nice. I have some of my own but I'm not sure if you want to hear them.

Pinklover1422 11:02 pm
you can watch my webcam but you're not a kid right??

KinzertheBrawler 11:02 pm
Oh no of course not! I'm only twelve years old!

Pinklover1422 11:02 pm
k ..well im gonna show you ..k?

KinzertheBrawler 11:03 pm
Oh, but can you really?

Pinklover1422 11:03 pm
*URL removed to avoid other people getting worms/viruses" go there and my video will load, just click accept invite, its 100% free to join since I'm a premium member, you only need a credit card to verify that you are over 18 ;p

KinzertheBrawler 11:03 pm
Awww~! What a shame~! You almost had me when you asked what's a bot. I thought you would've just been really innocent, but it turns out you're no better than any of them. ;_;
I'ma have to block you now sorry.

The username is not currently accepting Instant Messages. 11:04 pm
Pinklover1422 11:04 pm
what's a bot??[/collapse]

Welp, back to reading some manga/doujinshi.

 

[Kuraudo]

Why even entertain the bot with trying to lead them on? Just try and confuse them.

"You shouldn't have done that." would have sufficed. LOL

 

[Kinzer]

It's the internet. I always give "people" the benefit of doubt that they're just super oblivious. I remember I was like that when I was first starting out/using the internet too; when I was thirteen.

Also who says I'm entertaining the bot? I call it playing along for my own amusement, because 95% of the time they probably are bots and anybody who actuallys checks on their logs I want to troll them back.

... and oh God I don't even know if I want to go back to just learning what the internet was like anymore~...

 

[ShadoFiend]

The internet is fun tho.

 

[~TBS~]

more like **** you wesker IMO

That doesn't make any sense, Steam.
Sonic's not in Resident Evil. Or MvC3.

I hope dad is trollin. @______@

Tesh, it's pointless because the BBR MU Chart is more "Dominant" than the character board charts.
You're still very, very welcome to do it.

Just realize that it doesn't hold as much weight.

And I still disagree with you. Ganondorf can camp just as well as Sonic against Lucario.
Killing before 100 for bad Lucarios? If you're gonna play that card, then Ganondorf can kill bad Lucarios before 80%.

Ganon camping is the scariest crap i have ever heard of. pls no.

The internet is fun tho.

!?

 

[Kinzer]

"Fun" is figurative.

And with that, I'm in agreement with Shado, huehehehehe~...

 

[WedginatorX]

The internet is fun tho.

You're almost as big of a fgt as speed for not coming to cot5. Joe/kai/myself were salty.

 

[da K.I.D.]

all I know is... lucarios like to roll alot.

reading a roll by lucario as sonic = either a charged down smash, or a grab. 15-20%.

reading a roll by lucario as ganon = Stomp to up smash. 45%.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

failed to mention that a lucario that spams rolls in a serious match makes him bad to begin with

 

[Espy Rose]

Who said they were spamming it?

 

[Life]

Two things:

1. I think I noticed something at /hope. No character can cover the whole stage at once ('cept maybe Falco and Snake with the long-range projectiles--no, nothing to do with the losses I took at /hope), but nearly every character has a blind spot fairly close to them somewhere. For most, it seems to be above them and to the side somewhere. (think near where Shuttle Loop's hitbox is--obviously this isn't an MK strat <.<) If you dance around the area long enough, eventually they'll get nervous and go for an attack, which you can usually punish because they spent extra frames moving towards you/jumping. I actually beat a Lucario in friendlies by bait-and-punish-ing this way--not sure how good he was though. How right am I?

2. So I'm trying to teach one of my distant (physically, not genetically) cousins how to Falco. Quite fun. Normally I'm a terrible teacher, but I think that's more a consequence of my lack of charisma IRL than anything else. I am so much cooler online...