Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

The possibilities are endless. I can see CS connecting after many Fairs, Bairs, Nairs, dash attacks. Even back throw with some mind games. Many of these are probably combos. With the grab release and Fthrows pummeling with unstale the move too.

 

[Shaya]

Things with Z there were his obvious discomfort in handling the move.
Jump air dodges weren't used, he never DI'd to avoid it/get the sourspot.

It's obviously a good move. But I think nearly all the same weaknesses we see people refer to Mii Brawler as persist here. People shouldn't be playing smashville against us first game (smashville is such a bad stage this game... you shouldn't be beating sonic or mii brawler on this stage yet no one's striking it yet, lol).

 

[Locuan]

It's obviously a good move. But I think nearly all the same weaknesses we see people refer to Mii Brawler as persist here. People shouldn't be playing smashville against us first game (smashville is such a bad stage this game... you shouldn't be beating sonic or mii brawler on this stage yet no one's striking it yet, lol).

Can you give me a run-down of why Smashville is a bad stage? I personally don't like it, but in terms of actual data etc. I have a lack of understanding as to why it's not a good stage.

 

[Shaya]

Because all these characters with "cheesy" kill specials get guaranteed combos/frame traps from the moving platform that kill ludicrously early. It allows normally risky actions to be nearly completely safe on top of this. In sonic's case he can essentially out camp/stall everyone indefinitely.

 

[Vipermoon]

I automatically ban Smashville, unless a character I'm against specifically does well on FD. Smashville is pretty janky with things like Sheik carrying you offstage or the many kill throw backthrows.

 

[Langston777]

you don't like killing Fox at 70% with dancing blade?

 

[Vipermoon]

you don't like killing Fox at 70% with dancing blade?

Lol you can already do that on other stages. Tipper + rage + light character + fast faller + bad horizontal air speed. Fox loves dying

 

[SterlingMaroon]

I've seen many people bump down Marth to the end of the tier list (kinda a shot fired to us Marth mains). But honestly, is Marth all that bad?
I've found that a good way to use a Marth us just by mind games.
I have seen a ton of Marth players play him perfectly, constantly snagging wins, and hardly losing. He's not frequently seen in the competitive scene anymore (for Smash 4, that is), but is it just that the players can't manipulate him properly?

Is Marth a horrible competitive choice?
I still believe Marth should be much higher up on the tier list, and many people have just ignored him completely just because they can't find his full potential.

 

[Locuan]

@ SterlingMaroon , I moved your post to the General Thread. This discussion has occurred many times. Marth suffers from many weaknesses that a lot of characters on the cast can exploit; especially those characters that are considered the top tiers.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is solid now. Dancing Blade is definitely one of the best moves in the game. And apparently Crescent Slash is pretty stupid too, but there's more counterplay to it and weaknesses gained that you may not like/prefer.

DB has to be respected. And Marth making people respect him is pivotal to his success. He still lacks real safety on shield, hence the ability to dynamically pressure with attacks, but now he can be played reactively with success as he doesn't really lose to "attacks" and DB mixups keep flubs/whiffs being overly damaging.

DB beats all dodges and practically all attacks due to transcended priority. People fearing it give opportunities for other attacks.

 

[Vipermoon]

I never see Marth's using Utilt.

This move is very underrated. It has the same great range, comes out fast, and sure it doesn't kill anymore (Brawl, Melee), nor is it lagless (Melee) but the trap situations are real. Utilt can put people in some really nice trap situations. Utilt to grab, Fsmash, dancing blade, shield breaker. Reverse Utilt to Bair, Grab, Ftilt, etc. Get the reverse hit from a roll dodge read for example.

Now I absolutely HATE the damage output, the extreme levels of end lag, and how the front animation goes right through your opponent's head before it actually hits (like Brawl). I mean this move is so laggy when comparing to almost every other Utilt. For something that comes out so fast, it lags like a smash attack. So why does it do 6% damage? Idk. I mean, at low percents, Utilt isn't even safe on hit (like freakin downsmash/Usmash)!! You'd be punished for hitting them if they are smart enough to use offense. These are the weaknesses we are familiar with, but I still think this move needs to be used a lot more. It's ability to stop approaches from all angles didn't change. It needs to be used for this.

The good thing is, people are not used to Marth's Utilt, nor do they have his frame data memorized. Sometimes I'll get away with an Utilt on shield without punish because they are not bold enough to try.

 

[cerealkiller]

I never see Marth's using Utilt.

That's true for me I never use it. I don't know it doesn't fit my style I guess, even though all the guides recommend using it a lot. I do realize many times where I should have gone with it. It's strange how you say it is underrated but then you make it look like overrated
And rarely do I use Dtilt unless I must, depending on the opponent.

 

[Not_Indigo]

Where do you usually play, Viper? I use his Utilt and Ftilt regularly outside of FD when the other person is above, since they both can tipper easily through most platforms. On flat ground, I occasionally use it against bigger characters for coverage, like you mentioned, since it can hit them when they're in front of you, when they roll behind you (if their roll starts around the grounded Utilt tipper distance from the front), or when they jump.

I haven't tried out Utilt -> Fsmash/DB/SB, but it seems like you would need to commit too much to those outside of hard reads. I'd need to test it out a bit before I could say for sure, though.

 

[Shaya]

hmm, I use up tilt!
I try to get people with the second half of it on people in the air. Good for people who are empty jumping or good jump reads to roll in and then reverse up tilt em for what's usually an up air or back air (or so famously not recorded most of the time, air dodge read into tipper fsmash).

 

[kj22]

hmm, I use up tilt!
I try to get people with the second half of it on people in the air. Good for people who are empty jumping or good jump reads to roll in and then reverse up tilt em for what's usually an up air or back air (or so famously not recorded most of the time, air dodge read into tipper fsmash).

Fsmashing people out of their airdodges is one of the things I play Marth for. When its a reverse fsmash its twice as sexy

 

[Langston777]

I've been using utilt a lot out of habit recently since i've been messing around with PM Marth. It's actually pretty solid and at low %s puts the opponent right where Marth wants them to set up a follow up or something. especially beneath BF platforms where you can just keep utilting safely. I've done things like (utilt x2 > fair (land on platform) > DB), or (utilt x3 > (opponent tries to airdodge but lands on platofrm) > fsmash). Not true combos obviously but marth can use platforms pretty well to make it tricky for your opponent to land since utilt goes right through them and will force them to tech or jump away at low %s. they basically have to jump away because airdodging into the platform will usually lead to them getting hit again, and if you can capitalize on that and read their jump away you can hopefully knock em off the stage without their double jump, or just keep punishing their airdodges.

 

[Locuan]

Hm, I did not realize you guys were not using U-tilt; much less did I think it was an underrated move. It's a move I use quite frequently and it's pretty good to set up for follow ups. It can also catch opponents that are behind you. Granted not one of my most used moves, that spot belongs to Dancing Blade, D-tilt, and Jab, but it performs it's purpose really well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I never use it. I'm not a fan of moves that get me punished. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Langston777]

i live life on the edge

utilt for days

 

[kj22]

I remember Shaya posting about how uptilt is one of Marths better/fastest moves to immediately hit in front of him, so I've been using it as a CQC punish option when db is too risky and jab won't have a big enough reward/will just reset to neutral.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, before dancing blade being useful again/jab buffs, Up Tilt was a better "jab" than our jab.

Now I find Jab on shield is nice to some extent, 3 frames extra safety is huge. You'd be surprised how much I've noticed throwing ftilt out on the ground on shields isn't as bad as it used to be either.

 

[fox67890]

Marth is solid now. Dancing Blade is definitely one of the best moves in the game. And apparently Crescent Slash is pretty stupid too, but there's more counterplay to it and weaknesses gained that you may not like/prefer.

DB has to be respected. And Marth making people respect him is pivotal to his success. He still lacks real safety on shield, hence the ability to dynamically pressure with attacks, but now he can be played reactively with success as he doesn't really lose to "attacks" and DB mixups keep flubs/whiffs being overly damaging.

DB beats all dodges and practically all attacks due to transcended priority. People fearing it give opportunities for other attacks.

How exactly is one supposed to use dancing blade in neutral and take advantage of its transcended priority? I'd like to know this. I feel like I'm missing something based on what you're saying.

 

[cerealkiller]

Well... it's of good use because like Shaya said it has high priority so you can use it against almost everybody without the fear of being trampled, hit has 4 hit that you can control beating the spotdodge, neutral DB locks people well in a combo, down-DB is great against shields (altough again, like Shaya said, not always safe) and up-DB racks up more damage and with the right angle can actually kill. I've been using DB against fast and high pressure characters and it's a great tool, they can't just keep coming as they want.

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

I always felt like up tilt was a great option after spot dodging. (for a reason I can't quite explain it just seems to work) The only problem really is it's ending lag is huge but the start up is pretty good.
By the way: Hello Marth mains.

 

[Shaya]

How exactly is one supposed to use dancing blade in neutral and take advantage of its transcended priority? I'd like to know this. I feel like I'm missing something based on what you're saying.

It's use in neutral is the idea that if two moves come out at around the same time, Marth's is always going to cleanly win.
The range/step forward is also huge, outranging most of the cast. As he can do it out of a dash, him running is "scary".

You aren't "using" it in neutral as such as you're using it to punish essentially anything the opponent does, you just have to be capable enough at those punishes (like smart movement in neutral, baiting, outspacing, etc). If the opponent isn't playing to avoid dancing blade, then you need to use it more.

In Brawl, Marth had the most diverse mid-range game play due to having the most out of dash options (dancing blade and aerials). Falco could do almost all of the same with just dash attack though, to put it into perspective. MK used dash grab and forward rolls while also having great dash aerials.
With dancing blade being functional again, that means that his mid-range game in Smash4 which previously consisted of just dash aerials (way too easy to roll in on or shield) is suddenly closer to what it was in Brawl again, allowing him to be actually really quite strong against characters who don't have reliable answers to it.

 

[fox67890]

Hmm....
I understand that because it's transcended, it'll beat out other attacks. I just never really used it for that purpose in particular, since it was more of a punish tool for me (instead of using it to beat out an attack, I'll use vs an airdodge to the ground, whiffed move/dash grab, etc).

This seems to be consistent with what you're saying...I think? If I'm following, you're advising to use dancing blade to punish mid-range movement options, which was a use for it in brawl.

So as an example, I kinda feel Marth is somewhat weak to grounded cross ups when the opponent rolls in. So one use for dancing blade would be to weave into tipper range with a short hop, then weave right back out of it. If the opponent rolled in, use dancing blade. Is this along the uses you're talking about?

Perhaps I'm getting stuck on its use as a move with transcended priority. Even in brawl, I never really saw it used for the purpose of beating out an attack per se (example: I think the opponent will dash attack, so I'll use dancing blade to beat it out), but more so to punish something when it was guaranteed. I almost feel like it doesn't really matter that it has transcended priority, since it's a move used to punish a movement/attack, rather than to beat it straight out. Does this sound on or off?

 

[Shaya]

You're right that it's use as a punish is great, but then you're not abusing the fact it's transcended priority at all. With your current usage, if it was regular priority you wouldn't hardly notice.

I use dancing blade (and aerials, and spacing with a sword in general I guess) to hit limbs that are being extended from an opponent's attack, a lot. That's just part of abusing a sword/disjoint, you can get away with attacking "where they'll be if they move/attack" (although with lag nerfs this is a tighter wire than before; in Brawl I could just space neutral air and shut down legitimately 90% of the cast).

 

[kj22]

Everything shaya said is so true.

Instead of respecting someone's attack and having to shield/avoid it, you can just db and at worse you'll trade. It doesn't clang, won't get "overpowered" by another move it just slices right through, like falcos laser on a sword handle.
I view it like this--If my opponent is within db range provided I db before they hit me I will always win.
If falco shoots his laser at you, you can't hit it away like samus charge shotshot/mario fireball, you have to respect it and either avoid it or shield. You cannot get hit by it because whatever move you're doing will be stopped and lose.
Apply that same thinking to Marth's db. If they aren't avoiding or shielding it, there attack option will lose (superarmor/longer disjoints/i.e. special cases aside)


In brawl db was so sweet vs snake. The ability to beat out some of snakes attacks and not trade was so valuable. Dash db/dash shield mixup made approaching a littlittle more doable.

 

[fox67890]

Okay, I'll give DB a try in just trying to beat out other attacks strategically. I still feel questioning towards using it in case the opponent blocks (as opposed to jab/dtilt/ftilt/perfect retreating SH fair being kinda safe on block/whiff), but maybe it'll work out a bit. I'll give it a shot.

I definitely resonate with spacing Marth's moves if the opponent extends their hurtbox with a movement/attack option. Maybe I'll look there first.

Thank you.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I will summarize...

Because...footsies

 

[Shaya]

I try not to think about "what if it gets shielded" more than I try to think about "okay they're not going to shield *free $$$ damage $$$*"

 

[Beach]

Sorry guys posted in wrong thread

 

[Locuan]

I just got 9th in Austin's weekly out of 52 players. I saw you play as well on your weekly @ kj22 against Slush. Anyways, a question. I tried using DB to beat out Wario's N-air but I was never successful at it. I'm probably thinking it was because I was mistiming it but in the random off chance; can Wario's N-air out trade DB1?

 

[kj22]

I just got 9th in Austin's weekly out of 52 players. I saw you play as well on your weekly @ kj22 against Slush. Anyways, a question. I tried using DB to beat out Wario's N-air but I was never successful at it. I'm probably thinking it was because I was mistiming it but in the random off chance; can Wario's N-air out trade DB1?

Funny, I got 9th as well and you took a game off the guy who got third...who beat the guy 2-1 you lost to in Winners 2-0

Aerial moves are cant be canceled out so beating it would depend on spacing. I don't believe his Nair has a disjoint, but trying to db his Nair doesn't seem like the best thing to do, I'd take a page from the brawl marth/wario mu and just jab his approaches. That mu became so much easier once I learned that jab shuts down all of warios approaches, not much has changed so I'm assuming its still the same.
Dash away bair would beat it as well if he's approaching you with it. Will there be a video?
And what did you think?

 

[Shaya]

A wario who cannot air dodge shield into us is a generally easier Wario to deal with. Although I think overall his capabilities have gone up, none of it is too often applicable because the same issues as before are kinda exemplified when we have our pivot tilts, good trapping on him from throws and can still mostly play a punish focused game that I don't know the extent of which Wario can handle.

But eh, @ TheReflexWonder , what do you think? You seem to have a pretty positive opinion on Marth, you've probably played this match up while I only have pitiful wifi experience.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Honestly, the only Marth of significant worth I've played is Mr. E (which is something, to be fair) at Final Round, but that was literally the first time I'd fought a good Marth up to that point--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM8fuCsDNyY&ab_channel=SmashStudios
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZERxhSH6pvo&ab_channel=SmashStudios

I'm of the opinion that the changes significantly help Wario in this matchup. Marth has to respect a different kind of mid-range game and fight back with tools that I think don't work as well as they did. The new airdodge is a huge boost to Wario; my airdodge lasts only slightly longer than your Jab (six frames longer since 1.06) and takes less time than all of your aerials, meaning that I can "just do it" often and find myself with frame advantage or even a guaranteed punish on random stuff more than in Brawl.

The new Dash Attack is much better for reactive punishes and pops opponents up (where Wario wants them to be). D-Tilt is like Pikachu D-Tilt (it's fast with stupidly low cooldown) if it gave you a follow-up and/or mix-up every time you landed it. Neutral-B carries momentum if used in the air, so it can go over Marth's D-Tilt and generally threaten shields much more effectively.

Forward-B is gonna be a big part of making Wario respect your space, IMO. Marth can do such solid damage off of relatively easy reactions against Wario with it, generally discouraging Wario from playing too passively, and you still outpoke him.

 

[Locuan]

Funny, I got 9th as well and you took a game off the guy who got third...who beat the guy 2-1 you lost to in Winners 2-0

Aerial moves are cant be canceled out so beating it would depend on spacing. I don't believe his Nair has a disjoint, but trying to db his Nair doesn't seem like the best thing to do, I'd take a page from the brawl marth/wario mu and just jab his approaches. That mu became so much easier once I learned that jab shuts down all of warios approaches, not much has changed so I'm assuming its still the same.
Dash away bair would beat it as well if he's approaching you with it. Will there be a video?
And what did you think?

Yep, I switched to Fox against BloodyBoom though. He two stocked my Marth with his Capt. Falcon in like 30 seconds... I wish I was kidding. Regardless, composed myself, got my secondary ready for match-ups like these and faced the challenge head on. And as you said, I got a match off him; so for me, that was great.

In regards to the match against @Magik0722's Wario, there won't be a video since it wasn't on stream sadly. Although this is good info we can both use to further our knowledge on the match-up.

I need to watch your match against Slush again. I couldn't watch it completely because I was on commentary too.

A wario who cannot air dodge shield into us is a generally easier Wario to deal with. Although I think overall his capabilities have gone up, none of it is too often applicable because the same issues as before are kinda exemplified when we have our pivot tilts, good trapping on him from throws and can still mostly play a punish focused game that I don't know the extent of which Wario can handle.

But eh, @ TheReflexWonder , what do you think? You seem to have a pretty positive opinion on Marth, you've probably played this match up while I only have pitiful wifi experience.

In terms of the neutral game, it was relatively ok for both of us. Where I struggled was on the ledge, as I usually do. Which I believe it comes down to my ledge recoveries being too predictable. Not as much as in the past though but high level players can basically exploit them really well.

Honestly, the only Marth of significant worth I've played is Mr. E (which is something, to be fair) at Final Round, but that was literally the first time I'd fought a good Marth up to that point--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM8fuCsDNyY&ab_channel=SmashStudios
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZERxhSH6pvo&ab_channel=SmashStudios

I'm of the opinion that the changes significantly help Wario in this matchup. Marth has to respect a different kind of mid-range game and fight back with tools that I think don't work as well as they did. The new airdodge is a huge boost to Wario; my airdodge lasts only slightly longer than your Jab (six frames longer since 1.06) and takes less time than all of your aerials, meaning that I can "just do it" often and find myself with frame advantage or even a guaranteed punish on random stuff more than in Brawl.

The new Dash Attack is much better for reactive punishes and pops opponents up (where Wario wants them to be). D-Tilt is like Pikachu D-Tilt (it's fast with stupidly low cooldown) if it gave you a follow-up and/or mix-up every time you landed it. Neutral-B carries momentum if used in the air, so it can go over Marth's D-Tilt and generally threaten shields much more effectively.

Forward-B is gonna be a big part of making Wario respect your space, IMO. Marth can do such solid damage off of relatively easy reactions against Wario with it, generally discouraging Wario from playing too passively, and you still outpoke him.

Thanks Reflex! I'll be sure to hit the lab later on in the day.

 

[Freelance Spy]

snip...

Captain Falcon destroys us. He true combos us into the knee from a GRAB! Which kills way to early. I've tried to DI every wich way, tried to iai counter... Nothing works. Plus Falcon doesn't seem to be affected by any attempts at spacing, defensive play, or trying to out prioritize. I used to think it was an even MU, but after playing a guy who really knows what's up... I don't see Marth winning against any pro falcons in this game.

snip.
These are the gist of my Marth dreams I hope you guys can agree. It's fun to think of these things.

All these buffs would make Marth go well beyond god tier. While we all know Marth needs something, he can't have everything or any sense of balance this game has will be far out of whack.

 

[Emblem Lord]

CF has greater reward and a greater threat range on the ground. That is literally...it. There is nothing else. This is made painfully obvious when even the simplest throw trap set-ups are very hard for him to escape. He has to respect his opponents traps alot and he commits hard to a challenge. Every button Marth has, beats his. Very important to keep in mind. It might not be even, but CF does not destroy Marth.

Sheik destroys Marth. There is a huge difference in ability and option limitation right there.

 

[RavensArk]

I wasn't sure where to post this but I'll go ahead and post it here.
You marth mains are dedicated surely, so you probably already know but I found that U-air>Bair into crescent slash works around 40% and can kill with bad DI