Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

Does the usmash foot hitbox still stage spike?
I remember discussing this earlier in this thread, but I don't know which page... I may be wrong, it may have been the ledge getup attack stage spike we were discussing, though.
Or maybe the usmash stage spike was mentioned in one of the guides? I dunno.

Well if they aren't on-stage, being a ground hitbox, it can't hit them unless touching the stage counts which I doubt since they still register as being in the air.

 

[kesterstudios]

if I could this is how I would buff marth (he really needs a buff):
Down smash: 12% -> 13% (hit 1, tip)
Neutral aerial: 3% -> 5% (hit 1, tip), 8% -> 9% (hit 2, tip)
Forward aerial: 7% -> 8% (base), 10% -> 11% (tip)
Down aerial: 13% -> 14% (non-meteor tip)
Down throw: significantly lower base knockback, 5% -> 4%
Up throw: 4% -> 5%

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Marth remained as is and received a 2% damage buff on everything aside from his B moves he would be a solid character within his archetype. Right now his damage per hit is completely out of whack for a character that has no links or set-ups. Not including customs of course.

 

[Shaya]

Honestly, our main follow up throw is forward throw still (over multiple games), customs or not. Combos? Not necessarily, but positional and frame advantage wise it's our best bet.
Down Smash is one of the worst moves in the game, the entire thing could do with refocusing/working. If Marth'd down smash could be deleted so 'smash stick down' was just down tilt, I'd take it.
Our low damage output on grabs seems now counter intuitive, in Brawl and Melee our damage output was actually ridiculous. Out of high tiers, we were only second to Snake in Brawl. Damage reeled back as much as it was while grabs remained the same, like Down Smash, seems like design oversight.

Otherwise, neutral air damage definitely underpar (18% -> 11% [12% -> 8%], that's LUDICROUS; neutral air is literally our most nerfed move).
Anything else really isn't an issue or matter of damage. Knockback of a move does scale with damage, so the complete lack of kill power on Down Smash and a bit underwhelming on Up Air or Neutral Air could be rectified, but I think most of us would prefer the loosening up of our auto cancels on at least one of our aerials.

 

[Vipermoon]

I agree that while this game does less damage overall, Marth does even less. I would bring Dsmash front hit to 9% from 8, tipper to 13 from 12. First hit of Nair up 1% to 3 non tip and 4 tip. I'd raise Utilt to 7 and 10% from 6 and 9. And dancing blade 3-down needs to go back up to 4 and 5% up from 3 and 4. Subtle changes that are definitely not uncalled for nor are they unreasonable.

As far as other buffs. Less end lag with Utilt, Usmash, Dsmash, dash attack, and dancing blade 4-down. Let Fair hit above Marth again (I hate it when crap doesnt match animations), meaning give it frame 5 hitboxes. There are many more moves that need either hitboxes on more frames (ex. jab) or larger hitboxes in general (ex. dolphin slash, grab) to match animations.

Brawl/Melee autocancel was kind of OP and Brawl landing lag was definitely OP. So all I ask is for Marth's 4 fastest aerials to autocancel in the low 30 frame range and give Dair its Brawl autocancel. Lastly, Melee had a nice consistent 15 frame (non L cancel) landing lag on Fair, Nair, and Uair. So if Fair and Uair matched Nairs current 15 frame landing lag I'd be content.

I'd love for Dair to have slightly less landing lag so we can combo more consistently off a landing Dair ground-spike but that's asking for too much since the Dairs, Bairs, and Up B already has less landing lag than previous Smash.

These are the gist of my Marth dreams I hope you guys can agree. It's fun to think of these things.

 

[kesterstudios]

it really sucks marth was nerfed this way. he was my main in melee and one of my secondaries in brawl. I understand marth needed a nerf but he didn't need a big one. SAKURAI please buff marth!! (and lucina as well)

 

[cerealkiller]

SAKURAI please buff marth!! (and lucina as well)

lol He doesn't listen to no one!

 

[Quickhero]

lol He doesn't listen to no one!

So he does listen to one? #rekt

Nah but seriously, I'm content with no Marth buffs. He feels perfectly fine now and while maybe a few minor buffs would still not make him like top 5 material, I think what we have is enough to handle any character in the game, and that there is much more reward for my moves. :3

 

[mjunior1214]

At around mid-stage and your opponent is 60% or so, Fair into a jab lock, then that should position yourself perfectly to charge up f-smash briefly and tip the f-smash. Probably something that someone else has posted before, but I just found this on my own time playing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK5RFaXsqvI

 

[KillLock]

Nice little Ken combo here for you gentlemen.

 

[Shaya]

Where have you been KillLock? I haven't heard of any things/results coming from you in ever!

 

[KillLock]

Was on hiatus for a bit but now I'm back in full force.

 

[Shaya]

Pro or anti-customs?

 

[Locuan]

In that train of thought, Crescent Trash or Crescent Slash?

 

[cerealkiller]

Not really a Ken combo but, within his possibilities,still pretty nice!

 

[Pugwest]

Remember this list is entirely an opinion if you cannot handle that then please don't start lighting my list on fire with matches. I'll explain certain match-ups. Anything that is "N/A" I have never experienced before but Mr.E might have.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z0iSgnrBKdXlxJuqICPrPT6dZ_1h1iJOJjpGNc35ZqA/edit?usp=sharing

Things me and Mr.E disagree upon

Little mac - My Vote 40:60 , Eric 55-45

Olimar - My Vote 45:55 , Eric 60-40

C Falcon - My Vote 50:50 , Eric 55:45

We Both play against the same Top 5 Luigi whom I've never beat and Eric rarely beats. ~ belaC

Arguably , Sheik might be 60-40 depending on how much the meta progresses.

 

[Locuan]

@ Pugwest , moved your post to the General Thread.

 

[Rubidium]

Do we have a resource of the Kill %s of Marth's Neutral-B? I feel like it could be useful as it's a good kill move after a Shield Break.

 

[KillLock]

Pro or anti-customs?

Leaning more towards anti-customs, but I've had a lot of fun with Dashing Assault, fantastic move for Marth.

In that train of thought, Crescent Trash or Crescent Slash?

I prefer our regular Up B, so Crescent Trash?

 

[Pugwest]

I prefer our regular Up B, so Crescent Trash?

100% agree. Regular up-b is better in every mu imo

 

[Vipermoon]

You can use DS in a non grab release MU (I personally would always use CS) but I feel like CS is a requirement on grab release combo characters.

 

[kj22]

Remember this list is entirely an opinion if you cannot handle that then please don't start lighting my list on fire with matches. I'll explain certain match-ups. Anything that is "N/A" I have never experienced before but Mr.E might have.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z0iSgnrBKdXlxJuqICPrPT6dZ_1h1iJOJjpGNc35ZqA/edit?usp=sharing

Things me and Mr.E disagree upon

Little mac - My Vote 40:60 , Eric 55-45

Olimar - My Vote 45:55 , Eric 60-40

C Falcon - My Vote 50:50 , Eric 55:45

We Both play against the same Top 5 Luigi whom I've never beat and Eric rarely beats. ~ belaC

Arguably , Sheik might be 60-40 depending on how much the meta progresses.

Why do you think Jiggly/Marth is in her favor?

I think Fox should be way worse, I don't think mk beats us harder then fox?

diddy kong 50/50? What did you have it before the patch?

I actually think falcon is one Marth's worst mu. Dash attack/dash grab mixup is very strong, rage makes him KO light Marth even early, and he lives long outside of gimps among other strengths like bair being safe on POWERshield, safe back hit dsmash, great jab and juggling game, and a surprisingly decent camp game. What makes you think this is in Marth's advantage?

I think Sonic should have an asterisk saying becomes 70-30 if you lose your stock first.

I think the Pits are bad for Marth, partly because they can take way less risk then you for equal or greater reward. Feels like I'm playing a better version of my character with a bad recovery when I play pits. Oh and better range with equal if not better reward and definitely better safety. Fought @Zano several times, never fun.

Played Trela's mewtwo quiet a bit, he thinks its tough for mewtwo.

Greninja prolly around 50/50.

I'll explain myself more if anyone has questioins

 

[Shaya]

Yeah Pit's are disadvantaged. Dash attack out of shield is the guaranteed punish, tilts are better, can punish stuff with fsmash as it's longer range than us. Dash grab wrecking our ass too and yeah, just generally getting out done in anything slightly.

Fox maybe isn't too bad

Falcon is weird; don't know if it's even like I once said but there's a degree of him never getting out of disadvantage against us playing smart/precise [bair is stupid, i also hate how easy it is to up air people on the ground with him in contrast to ZSS]

Diddy Kong may not be much of a disadvantage anymore in theory but I doubt we'll be showing results in that against competent diddy's anytime soon. But I could see it going somewhere nice at some point

Sonic, lol. Silly match up. We have no presence within our mid-range of him, he can ignore our everything forever because the moment we commit (i.e. anything but walking... away from him) he'll get a solid punish/put us in an awful spot. So yeah, like almost no chance if we have a stock deficit. But as per usual, dancing blade has changed our match ups a lot though.

I agree with around even with Greninja, maybe slight advantage? my experiences with Sync were very positive (ZSS was evenish / his favour IIRC). Not a real shield grab is a lovely god send, our swords out prioritising a lot of his things is good, shuriken's are not hard for marth to play around; dancing blade actually working on him now too? Actually with that in mind, I'd think slight advantage is very feasible.

I'm quite surprised at Lucario? huh? Getting outspaced significantly and dies to tippers pretty exceptionally... Unless I'm missing some sort of auto combo I'm not sure how that's worse than ZSS.

ZSS, despite how much I love her and tease my counterpart with Marth, it's hard. ZSS wins on the ground by quite a bit, and that's something she doesn't so easily get against a lot of the cast... Dancing blade actually is quite a god send against her (transcended priority), but I don't think that's going to stop the match up getting worse over time once the ZSS players wise up. I know too much, I make Marths look like jello. Tools like zair, the hard punish / combo finisher of BOTH flip jump and boost kick, the mobility, the tilt advantage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think CF vs Marth is even. CF should be dead or take 30% anytime you get him off the stage. And there is alot of counter play to his approaches. But in terms of raw data he is definitely superior. But Marth just outbuttons him really well. He is limited in neutral just that the options he does have, lead to high reward scenarios/combos.

Jiggz imo is only slightly in Marth's favor. You may not like the way you beat her but essentially you just don't DO anything. EVER. She presses a button you jab her or f-tilt her. It's just counter poking all day.

Mewtwo and Marth play a similar footsie game but Mewtwos sword is actually his body so that doesn't work out too well for him.

I think Pits vs Marth is disadvantage. They are not more safe then Marth though. F-tilt and D-tilt are not safe on block. They do take less risks overall and they can play a more threatening waiting game then Marth can due to arrows. Way better recovery and edgeguarding imo as well.

 

[Pugwest]

You can use DS in a non grab release MU (I personally would always use CS) but I feel like CS is a requirement on grab release combo characters.

If u hold down (if you're the one grabbed) you will 100% be released to the floor and never in air grab release. This is one reason Crescent will never be good. If thats what you'r banking on.

I agree with all of you that Pit is probs 60-40. I fought one and got outranged by everything but won simply with smart spacing/grab mindgames. Pit is just so fast.

Jiggs - Shes actually a whole lot better than most people take her for. Her moves can beat ours if we don't respect them + time wrong. From my experience she also has some stupidly safe On Shield moves which makes punishing a little harder.

Falcon - Just retreat short hop everything and you really beat him lol. Unless he short hop u-airs. Its a pretty easy match up once you adapt to the characters speed. Mind you I play a Sonic main every tournament (Craftis) So i'm used to fast characters.

Zss - My little brother is #1 in my region (New England, Not state, region) and thats his main. I played it everyday over 3000 matches. With knowledge the match up isn't extremely bad but it is still a slope to climb. She can 0-death you if you're not careful, kill you with one grab at around 45% and has amazing juggles with no escape.

Fox - Just fast as hell and annoying. He didn't become so good just because. I may change this in the future as my experience isn't against a Top level one.

Lucario - A good lucario shields everything we do and punishes. Hes got some nice combos early and if we don't kill him before Rage the match up becomes stressful as one mistake results in death.

Diddy- Before the Patch i would have said 65-35 or 70-30 but he can't kill us anymore. U-throw - u -air doesn't work at a certain high % since u can DI out of the way. This makes us hard to kill for Diddy. I've lived up to 170-190% now and it's just making this match up extremely easy. He can't ever side-b approach as our Jab 100% beats it and we can even F-smash punish for the kill if properly timed. The only reason Diddy even has a chance in this match up is banana. No banana Diddy is 70-30 Marths favor but thats all my experience.

Never fought a good Greninja so I'll let you guys help my judgement here. I heard he just can't kill kinda like Sheik.

 

[Vipermoon]

If what you said, Pugwest, is true then I have no idea why everyone is freaking out over these grab release combos. I'll test it myself later today.

About MUs. Marth is 50-50 with Cpt. Falcon. I agree with everything EL said. This character can destroy anyone if given the chance but honestly he's pretty simple, honest character if you think about it. I probably have 1000 games with Falcon and he's my secondary. When I go Falcon against Marth (which I'd never do in tourney) I'm usually able to camp Marth (best way to do the MU) and get the win but it feels even and it's a lot of work for Falcon.

Zinoto (one of the best Diddys around) got destoryed but Ally's pocket Marth at a midwest tourney recently. Diddy used to win 60-40 IMO but post patch that MU is reverse. Diddy has to rely on Utilt and Usmash for vertical kills now. And you now have a certain four hit combo that will consistently send him offstage (IMPORTANT). You can easily survive against him and you play the match and beat him the same way you'd play and beat Falcon. They are kind of similar.

Pit wins 60-40 or against Marth. He's tough and as long as he has that broken frame 5, lagless Dsmash, among other things, it will stay this way. But nothing Pit has outranges Marth except for Fsmash (by a lot though). The rest of Pit's moves definitely can't compare with Marth's range (not only that but unlike Pit, Marth swings his sword in arcs covering much of the area around him). Idk why you'd say otherwise. Marth is up there with Shulk and Ike as the higher ranged sword fighters.

I think Marth is 50-50 with Greninja but I'm not an expert here.

Just from my own experiences Marth loses to Lucario at 55-60 but I don't have too much experience because at that point I go Falcon, one of Lucarios worst MUs.

I explained in another thread why Marth is about 50-50 or BETTER with Fox. Here is what I said:
"I wouldn't say tough. Marth does well against Fox. It's probably 50 50 (Marth could even win but we don't see this matchup much in high level). This kind of MU says a lot considering Fox is pretty decent overall.

First thing is first, you completely out-range Fox. Now that we have that out of the way...

Fox's laser is extremely laggy, you can punish it from at least half a stage away so you shouldn't even bother to shield it. Marth has great edgeguarding tools that really shuts the spacie down when you get him off stage. You can counter the up B if you want but it's pretty easy to Dair, Fair, Bair, or Dolphin Slash that as well. If the fox tries to side B onto the stage Marth is equipped with disjoints to screw up his plans. It's a pretty easy read and all it takes is a well-timed tilt or smash attack to perform. But Marth gets back to the ledge for free against Fox. Fox is also light and a fast faller. I find up throw to still be very effective in killing despite the fall speed. And killing him off the side at low percents is extremely easy (like with forward dancing blade which easily combos him since the patch) because he is light and has bad horizontal air speed. Or try Upwards dancing blade and combo into the tipper when Fox is at kill percents (like 100%) so you have that. One of the largest problems with Fox (other than maybe approaching) is when you are at high percents Fox can do nothing to your shield. He doesn't have throw follow-ups or kill throws so you can potentially live a long time if you keep your shield handy. One huge thing you are IMMUNE to is Fox's jab. You can up B or Uair (and probably counter) out of the full jab combo (and we all know that Marth is deadly when he gets a falling Uair). Marth can also Up B and counter (and probably uair) out of Fox's famous 1-2 trap. The Fox player, knowing this, might even stay away from using jab.

With all that said, Fox can destroy Marth in a lot of ways just the same as he could wreck some other character. This post is meant to talk about what Marth can do.

Edit: Marth's forward throw follow-ups work against Fox and I find down throw follow-ups to work best against Fox and Falcon. So rejoice in some actual throw combos for this match-up."

Marth loses to Zero Skill Spamus 60-65. I have a few hundred matches against good ZSSs I just think she destroys him pretty easy.

Marth definitely beats Jigglypuff. 60-40 (assuming shield breaker won't factor in. Because only stupid Jigglys will shield those). Basically what EL said.

I don't know about Mewtwo. I think he's a horrible character but maybe I don't know how to fight him yet because I can't always win with Marth. Thinking about it with facts, it seems Marth would win.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If u hold down (if you're the one grabbed) you will 100% be released to the floor and never in air grab release. This is one reason Crescent will never be good. If thats what you'r banking on.

So I'm testing this now and it is false, from what I'm seeing. Holding down with Mario and he gets air released every time.

I would love to hear your opinion on why it's not good though. As it stands CS is pretty much the only reason I still play him, but if I were to have hard evidence that I didn't know about that proves why it's inferior then well I would have a choice to make about my competitive future.

Right now I think it's match-up dependent.

For the record I mainly use CS just because honestly, CS once you master it is 100 times more fun then default Marth.

 

[KillLock]

Hmm, I don't think Marth ZSS is that bad for Marth. It's my most played mu and if you play the neutral game right you can implement a lot of interesting positioning tactics(via reseting to neutral in bad situations making it a 50/50 situation) against her.
I feel like that cancels out that speed-demon in your face character style people are used to seeing. The rolls being faster in this game have improved Marth's neutral game remember that.

 

[Pugwest]

So I'm testing this now and it is false, from what I'm seeing. Holding down with Mario and he gets air released every time.

I would love to hear your opinion on why it's not good though. As it stands CS is pretty much the only reason I still play him, but if I were to have hard evidence that I didn't know about that proves why it's inferior then well I would have a choice to make about my competitive future.

Right now I think it's match-up dependent.

For the record I mainly use CS just because honestly, CS once you master it is 100 times more fun then default Marth.

This is odd, everyone that knows it seems to hold down and they never get air released. Though they were Zss/Sonic/Link.

I don't like CS because it makes u easier to gimp off stage, recovery is pretty one dimensional imo because you will either snap the ledge or just barely get back on in most cases which is easy to shield/predict. You lose the ability to go for the off stage gimps / if it also doesn't ride up stages. BF for example keeps u like stuck in one place instead of pushing u up which is unfortunate. I don't hate the move, i tried it like everyone else but sadly I don't see it being good at Top level play.

side note: Maybe the new Diddy patch ended up patching this as I don't remember the last time I used it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

On stage the release only works vs short characters.

His recovery is more one dimensional, but the offset is that he is harder to challenge head on.

Seems you are just really really used to DS which is fine. The real use of CS is the expansion it gives to him in terms of territory and option coverage. No one is truly safe from being reset into a trap situation if you run CS with Dashing Assault.

 

[Shaya]

playing the ZSS/Marth match up on both sides, I know why I'm winning when I shouldn't be (and wouldn't dare to use him in tournament against the ZSS because of it)
1. Dancing Blade not being respected in neutral. Yes that very long range transcended priority move will really stunt ZSS just walking and tilting us on the ground without much care. Thank god, but it is something I expect ZSS players to adapt to. ZSS hits our shield and then instead of respecting DB attacks again and takes 13% because of it and is now in the air where re-dbing is likely, keep abusing this. But know fully well her stuff is safe on our shield and it isn't a real punish.

2. Getting edge guards on flip jump / tether pulls frequently. Feels great and all, but I know the positions Marth can't cover (I guess crescent slash may actually alter this dynamic a bit) and he doesn't really force ZSS not to recover the smart way [problem here is that ZSS can just go for flip jump kick trades against CS when you attempt to recover, and you will die]

3. Not getting camped. ZSS chooses to fight us because she can play the out-button game with Marth and still come out on top. She doesn't need to. Marth cannot cover flip jump escapades and doesn't have a mid-range game plan against her beyond dancing blade. No one wants to play ZSS like we're in Brawl, but we're fully capable of doing so (and we do so against Sheik and Diddy who have legitimate issues handling it).

Still not really set on Lucario. Yeah dash attack oos is good... but how is he dealing with mid-range marth dtilt/dancing blade? SH air dodge side-b or auraspheres on reaction for free punishes. I don't know how he gets kills on us bar hard reads or aurasphere. Still, would like to see this played out to see/understand what I'm missing.

 

[Foodies]

At high auras Lucario gets a great ledgeguarding option by just charging aura sphere by the ledge at a certain distance. It will beat out waiting on the ledge, get up attack, regular get up, ledgejump, and roll (by shooting the sphere on reaction). You can hit him by dropping and ledgehopping an aerial but he can shield that. If you are caught in the aura sphere charge it can lead into usmash pretty consistently/he may read your jump out with a bair.

The MU changes depending on how much aura Lucario has (mostly just because of aura sphere charge size, but yeah the obvious super low % kill possibilities for him as well). Overall I think it's even. In theory Marth wins because of disjoints/Lucario lacking range but the aura mechanic just messes up the risk reward ratios on everything.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How the hell does Lucario hit buttons on the Emperor? Marth does NOT care about Aura Charge nonsense at all except in specific scenarios that Lucario has to work to create or get lucky (like ledge traps) and outranges and outspeeds Lucario pretty much everywhere.

Lucario gets a lucky Force palm grab kill with an Aura boost. That is literally the only way he should ever get a kill.

On the topic of ZSS: I beat the mess out of any ZSS I fight, except that infamous match vs Nairo. He knew what I could do. Other ZSS just flow chart and do stupid stuff. Flip jumping at obvious bait attempts then get doom sliced straight to hell with Crescent Slash. After the match with Nairo I will NEVER pick Marth vs a strong ZSS in tourney. It feels suffocating. Like staring into the jaws of a megaladon and the only reason I havent been eaten alive is because the massive beast feels like I'm not worth it's time.

 

[kj22]

How the hell does Lucario hit buttons on the Emperor? Marth does NOT care about Aura Charge nonsense at all except in specific scenarios that Lucario has to work to create or get lucky (like ledge traps) and outranges and outspeeds Lucario pretty much everywhere.

Lucario gets a lucky Force palm grab kill with an Aura boost. That is literally the only way he should ever get a kill.

On the topic of ZSS: I beat the mess out of any ZSS I fight, except that infamous match vs Nairo. He knew what I could do. Other ZSS just flow chart and do stupid stuff. Flip jumping at obvious bait attempts then get doom sliced straight to hell with Crescent Slash. After the match with Nairo I will NEVER pick Marth vs a strong ZSS in tourney. It feels suffocating. Like staring into the jaws of a megaladon and the only reason I havent been eaten alive is because the massive beasts feels like I'm not worth it's time.

how I felt going against Karna's Sheik, one of the top players in Houston. Like bringing a knife to a sniper fight

 

[kj22]

So I'm testing this now and it is false, from what I'm seeing. Holding down with Mario and he gets air released every time.

I would love to hear your opinion on why it's not good though. As it stands CS is pretty much the only reason I still play him, but if I were to have hard evidence that I didn't know about that proves why it's inferior then well I would have a choice to make about my competitive future.

Right now I think it's match-up dependent.

For the record I mainly use CS just because honestly, CS once you master it is 100 times more fun then default Marth.

I'm guessing this is what you dream of when you think of the Marth custom meta?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3bqo6XJ1ow

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm guessing this is what your dream of when you think of the Marth custom meta?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3bqo6XJ1ow

Exactly. Now we are on the same page.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Now imagine if Marth had been abusing grab releases in that match and air traps with CS. The Marth only used CS to maybe 25% of it's full potential. His fundamentals were stronger then the Pikachus.

That woulda been a blow out if he knew CS like I do.

Any Marth that says CS is bad, I'm sorry but you are just wrong. That's fine. Everyone is wrong about some things. You can say you don't like customs. Thats cool. But to deny the utility of CS is silly.

Eh, I don't even know what future customs have and truthfully I don't care.

Imma just play the game. Whatever meta that may be.

 

[Vipermoon]

Now imagine if Marth had been abusing grab releases in that match and air traps with CS. The Marth only used CS to maybe 25% of it's full potential. His fundamentals were stronger then the Pikachus.

That woulda been a blow out if he knew CS like I do.

Any Marth that says CS is bad, I'm sorry but you are just wrong. That's fine. Everyone is wrong about some things. You can say you don't like customs. Thats cool. But to deny the utility of CS is silly.

Eh, I don't even know what future customs have and truthfully I don't care.

Imma just play the game. Whatever meta that may be.

That's right. It's Pika, idk why he wasn't grab releasing.

Edit: Do you think CS is safe on shield if you CS someone standing at the ledge while you're recovering? Can you make it back to the ledge without getting shield grabbed?

 

[Langston777]

Any Marth that says CS is bad, I'm sorry but you are just wrong. That's fine. Everyone is wrong about some things. You can say you don't like customs. Thats cool. But to deny the utility of CS is silly.

yo i regret doubting CS this move is based as hell lmao
i don't have to work so hard for my kills anymore, can we say we have achieved the title of sword diddy?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah its so good. At high percents dont look for combos from throws. Just forward throw then dash at them. Half the time they airdodge then you just wait a split second and CS. You will catch them right as the airdodge ends and they go flying.