Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[JingleJangleJamil]

So guys, we got new thread prefixes! On another note, Marth tourney results thread, yay or nay?

Hell yeah!

 

[RavensArk]

You marth mains probably already know about this but, since I see no thread about this I guess I'll make it. When running on stage if you perfectly time a DB right at the lip you'll "jump" It can also be done on platforms.
I see no particular use for it since its basically short hop height but hey it does give you some height and doesn't waste your double jump so... Either way if you knew this sorry, if you didn't then heres some news.

 

[Locuan]

You marth mains probably already know about this but, since I see no thread about this I guess I'll make it. When running on stage if you perfectly time a DB right at the lip you'll "jump" It can also be done on platforms.
I see no particular use for it since its basically short hop height but hey it does give you some height and doesn't waste your double jump so... Either way if you knew this sorry, if you didn't then heres some news.

Moved to the General Thread. And yes, we know. There are some applications for it actually.

 

[kj22]

An example of Sheik playing the Marth mu RIGHT...
SSB4 @ Paradise Lost - Mr. E (Marth) vs XFire ... - YouTube

Karna, one of the best sheiks here in Houston, plays very similar to Vinnie, and this is pretty much how our matches go.

 

[fox67890]

Moved to the General Thread. And yes, we know. There are some applications for it actually.

I *think* I remember this happening to me in brawl sometimes, but this hasn't happened to me in smash 4. Is this really legit?

 

[Locuan]

You can get a slight vertical boost with DB1 once you use it in the air.

 

[fox67890]

/\

I'm aware that if you use it while raising in the air, it'll give you a bit of a vertical boost. But the way RavensArk spoke made it sound like as Marth runs off a ledge and immediately uses Dancing blade (without spending a midair jump), he'll still get the vertical boost. I think I recall something like that happening in brawl.

Did I just misunderstand?

 

[Shaya]

When you run off a ledge, you go into this weird state transition of being on the ground and in the air.
At a certain height/dash, and this was also the case in Brawl, you'll DB1 and do a "hop".

 

[Locuan]

I was going to post, but Shaya 'd.

 

[fox67890]

Okay, that definitely sounds like my experience in brawl and fits my memory. I haven't been able to do that at all in this smash game though, while it was relatively simple to do in brawl iirc. That's weird...

 

[Emblem Lord]

An example of Sheik playing the Marth mu RIGHT...
SSB4 @ Paradise Lost - Mr. E (Marth) vs XFire ... - YouTube

Karna, one of the best sheiks here in Houston, plays very similar to Vinnie, and this is pretty much how our matches go.

Yup. Once Sheik realizes Marth has a sword and she respects that and starts baiting risky responses, the punishes become pretty free. Then it's just a matter of her riding her momentum.

 

[Quickhero]

Okay guys, my sister's college is having a Smash tournament a day after my birthday so I plan to go there in 2 weeks. Are there any tips you experienced local tournament players can give me that I do well. :3 This will be my first offline tournament and I want to make sure I slip up as least as possible.

I want to solo Marth since I've actually been relatively impressed with my Marth so far, but I can see my weaknesses with Marth, mainly me being too scared when I have to think twice while facing characters that Marth doesn't have a clear advantage over off-stage, basically ZSS, Sheik, and even opposing Marth's.

I am not TOO scared about this because I believe that if I start utilizing jab buffs I can start finding a way to beat these hard match-ups in general. I know how to use incredibly important tech like perfect pivots and reverse grabs and my spacing game is only getting better. I'm actually quite impressed with how my Dancing Blade game (and combo game period tbh) is going as well which makes my Marth game that much more rewarding. Still, it basically comes as an issue on whether I should polish up Sheik and Lucario (characters whom I already know how to play but pretty rusty with) because the fear of losing these match-ups is still very real and obviously having back-ups may be nice for those. Keep in mind though that I also have three finals within the course of these two weeks so my practice will be fairly limited. :\

 

[Emblem Lord]

Went to a local today. Took 7th I believe out of 27 or 28. I will follow up on that. I played, well...super lame. Alot of baiting and empty hops. I used alot of Shieldbreaker. Been using Sheik so the empty hop mix-ups are now in my Marth game. Empty jump with shieldbreaker and Crescent Slash equipped create monstrous mind games. I broke a shield at least once per opponent. So many threatening options that actually demand respect. Of course I turned heads with CS set-ups. I actually caught someone with FF uair, full jump bair, double jump Crescent Slash. It felt like a combo as I did not see my opponent come out of reel back stun in the air. I did a ton of grab release set-ups. Guys we need to be spamming this. Works vs several strong chars. Mario bros, Pikachu, Ness, and Villager. Wish it worked on Diddy though.

This tournament solidified what I already know.

I am a solid Marth.

And I really need to cut the **** and counter pick. A sheik took me out of tourney and it was so dumb. During neutral it was all good but if she got a hit in I felt PAIN.

BTW waiting is just too strong in this game. As a Sagat player in Street Fighter I truly feel like most players threshold isnt very high and they will just be the author of their own demise. Just play patient and let the weak destroy themselves. Worked in all my matches even vs the Sheik but all it took were a few reads for her to start her control game.

I'm going to work on implementing more jab and more f-tilt now. I know my game will improve, but I will be working on my Sheik and my Mii Brawler. Tired of not placing in the money just because of my reputation.

 

[kj22]

Went to a local today. Took 7th I believe out of 27 or 28. I will follow up on that. I played, well...super lame. Alot of baiting and empty hops. I used alot of Shieldbreaker. Been using Sheik so the empty hop mix-ups are now in my Marth game. Empty jump with shieldbreaker and Crescent Slash equipped create monstrous mind games. I broke a shield at least once per opponent. So many threatening options that actually demand respect. Of course I turned heads with CS set-ups. I actually caught someone with FF uair, full jump bair, double jump Crescent Slash. It felt like a combo as I did not see my opponent come out of reel back stun in the air. I did a ton of grab release set-ups. Guys we need to be spamming this. Works vs several strong chars. Mario bros, Pikachu, Ness, and Villager. Wish it worked on Diddy though.

This tournament solidified what I already know.

I am a solid Marth.

And I really need to cut the **** and counter pick. A sheik took me out of tourney and it was so dumb. During neutral it was all good but if she got a hit in I felt PAIN.

BTW waiting is just too strong in this game. As a Sagat player in Street Fighter I truly feel like most players threshold isnt very high and they will just be the author of their own demise. Just play patient and let the weak destroy themselves. Worked in all my matches even vs the Sheik but all it took were a few reads for her to start her control game.

I'm going to work on implementing more jab and more f-tilt now. I know my game will improve, but I will be working on my Sheik and my Mii Brawler. Tired of not placing in the money just because of my reputation.

Grace us with your vids o wise one

Having a taste of marth in the customs environment, are you going to drop him/secondary in a non-custom one?

Definitely abuse cps. You said it yourself your aim is to win so do everything in your power to maximize that chance as marth. What stages are you looking at to cp aside from the obvious bf? Is kongo legal in your region?

Waiting is amazing. Don't treat your opponents like they're good until proven otherwise. If somethings working, don't change it up until they prove they're smart enough not to get hit my it lmao

How's your ledge trap game?

 

[Xisin]

at mid percents sour fair to tipper bair also will hit into crescent, which kills. Overall its nice move, we know that already though.

I'll be workinjg on the sheik mu more before i give up on it though, i def feel the pain though.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Not sure why I stopped receiving alerts for this thread, but I guess posting this will fix that. Damn I feel so rusty in Smash...I have pretty much stopped practicing in due to some annoying thing with my 3DS circle pad and pretty much refusing to ever play on FG ever again. Now I really only play smash once a week when I go play against my friend at his place, and sometimes I just feel like doing something else on a Friday instead of playing Smash.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Feeling a bit more motivated to go solo Marth in tourney. The strongest Bowser in NJ, beat the Sheik that took me out in tourney and took second at the weekly. He also took first at a tourney the week before that. That said I do feel Bowsers match vs Sheik is better then Marths and he ended up losing to LoF False's Sheik(Same crew as Keitaro and NAKAT)

But both are mid tier chars imo so if he can make it happen with Bowser, I don't see why I can't with Marth.

idk either way I got more training to do and I do feel regular Dolphin Slash may be the go to up b vs Sheik. Turns every on shield action she tries vs Marth into a free 11% punish for him.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, well in better news, dancing blade is so good!
I forgot what having a functional kit was meant to feel like on Marth.
Sometimes you burn yourself out, it's fine. If you enjoy the game in any capacity enjoy it as that, no need to force yourself, I think casually liking this game is a lot more appealing than it used to be (streams/etc everywhere). When you feel the confidence again, bring it back with the new mindset, things will be different with just an alternative perspective. I'm not sure if your situation allows yourself to go to tournaments (heck not even entering, atmosphere, asking players for advice directly or friendlies will go far), but it's always a game changer and a decider to one's thoughts and prospects of the game.

Also the next meta development right now for Marth is Dolphin Slash. Aggressive use of it is significantly better than it once was, people second guess themselves when they're dealing with a "3 frame" start up transceded priority out of dash out of shield in the air option has. I think the most horizontal distance someone will get hit by the sweetspot is like a leg length above the ground, so learning to time it for that instance will likely work out better than defensively wanting them to drop into your shield.
I say this as a contrast to my use of ZSS who I can't use her up-b aggressively in the same way due to RCO. Without RCO your inherent risk of a mess up goes from oh half a second lag total vs half a second in the air into half a second on the ground getting ****ed.
MikeNeko's use of Dolphin Slash in Brawl with his amazing reaction speed is what I'm talking about as aggressive usage. If people aren't aware what that is or would like specific examples I could go search for it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Feeling a bit more motivated to go solo Marth in tourney. The strongest Bowser in NJ, beat the Sheik that took me out in tourney and took second at the weekly. He also took first at a tourney the week before that. That said I do feel Bowsers match vs Sheik is better then Marths and he ended up losing to LoF False's Sheik(Same crew as Keitaro and NAKAT)

But both are mid tier chars imo so if he can make it happen with Bowser, I don't see why I can't with Marth.

idk either way I got more training to do and I do feel regular Dolphin Slash may be the go to up b vs Sheik. Turns every on shield action she tries vs Marth into a free 11% punish for him.

I've been saying all along that Bowser vs. Sheik isn't that bad. It is the strongest and heaviest character in the game against the weakest and one of the lightest. Not to mention Rage. With Bowser, if you get the reads, off stage Fair, Ftilt, Dair, and Usmash are great ways of dealing with and intercepting Bouncing Fish. There's a lot more I can talk about but this thread is about Marth.

Edit: This sounds wrong. Let me explain some more. Yes Sheik still wins but only after realizing that the way to win in the safest way is by camping, edge guarding, and punishing Bowser's horrible landing problem.

Hmm, well in better news, dancing blade is so good!
I forgot what having a functional kit was meant to feel like on Marth.
Sometimes you burn yourself out, it's fine. If you enjoy the game in any capacity enjoy it as that, no need to force yourself, I think casually liking this game is a lot more appealing than it used to be (streams/etc everywhere). When you feel the confidence again, bring it back with the new mindset, things will be different with just an alternative perspective. I'm not sure if your situation allows yourself to go to tournaments (heck not even entering, atmosphere, asking players for advice directly or friendlies will go far), but it's always a game changer and a decider to one's thoughts and prospects of the game.

Also the next meta development right now for Marth is Dolphin Slash. Aggressive use of it is significantly better than it once was, people second guess themselves when they're dealing with a "3 frame" start up transceded priority out of dash out of shield in the air option has. I think the most horizontal distance someone will get hit by the sweetspot is like a leg length above the ground, so learning to time it for that instance will likely work out better than defensively wanting them to drop into your shield.
I say this as a contrast to my use of ZSS who I can't use her up-b aggressively in the same way due to RCO. Without RCO your inherent risk of a mess up goes from oh half a second lag total vs half a second in the air into half a second on the ground getting ****ed.
MikeNeko's use of Dolphin Slash in Brawl with his amazing reaction speed is what I'm talking about as aggressive usage. If people aren't aware what that is or would like specific examples I could go search for it.

I can't deal with Dolphin Slash, it's range is soooo bad now. It can't even match it's animation (same with grab, his whole hand goes right through them and it won't grab usually). I only use it as a jab/combo/multihit breaker, it doesn't have the range or the kill power for anything else in my opinion. With that said, it has low landing lag. Most Up B's in this game have 30 frames or more of landing lag. Not us.

 

[Shaya]

Think of how you can use it out of a dash or to trade/beat out in aerial interactions.

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh yeah I've thought of these things, experimented with them, everything. But like I said, the range is crap (lack of a better word at the moment). If I whiff it, it will get punished in the worst way. It usually isn't worth the 11 damage. Maybe I'll give it another chance since you say it's good. I mean I know Mr. E does a lot of cool stuff with it (not as cool (read: broken) as the stuff from Brawl) but even he toned down his use of DS. That says something.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If someone touches your shield with anything except a perfect spaced tilt(depends on your opponent) the damage is free. Something that can make Sheik second guess her offense is nothing to snub your nose at.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was thinking and I realized that if I get hit on shield (by both weak and strong attacks) I either up smash OoS or shieldgrab/shield drop grab (depending on pushback). I usually don't DS OoS but if DS can reach even after the pushback (usually while catching extended hurtboxes) maybe I should use it more. So I will try to change things up from now on.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Hmm...I wonder if Marth's Crescent Slash beats Sheik's Bouncing Fish...That would be like reading someone else's read or punishing someone else's punish if that works.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's virtually anything beats it, just a matter of timing. You can punish it on block pretty well with CS though, which is nice.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth's virtually anything beats it, just a matter of timing. You can punish it on block pretty well with CS though, which is nice.

Good point. CS has the perfect arc for it. Before customs you couldn't really do anything but spot dodge up smash. Maybe it perfect shield into a dash attack.

 

[Xisin]

5th of 49 in singles today. so close but so far... made money at least. Lost to mii brawler and MK. Not sure what to do about mk and the neutral, seems like he can wait us out. Any help or input would be cool. Every game was close, just it was hard to get in, grab release to crescent obv rocks mk's world but getting the grab to begin with on a wary mk is a chore and a half.

4th of something in doubles as well, did ok there also. Pure marth per usual.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I took 5th as well at a very small local. Lost to Peach, which I have little experience with and Dissent's Diddy Kong. Dissent and I played alot in friendlies. Showed him the lameness of grab release CS. He was amused and sad all at once. I truly feel default Marth might be the best option vs Sheik or possibly Dashing Assault but default everything else. Up B out of shield is just too strong vs her pressure/poke game when you are shielding. For Diddy just gotta stay fluid and be ready to react to monkey flip in neutral or to get out of bad situations. Marth doesnt lose neutral terribly really, it's simply risk vs reward and how bananas force defense. I would go CS vs Diddy.

Vs Ling Ling's Peach, he was just better. I played our resident Peach player after that and I messed him up badly. So there is a skill gap that needs to be closed. His neutral was just stronger.

Dissent also used Pikachu and Villager vs my Marth. Pikachu is again stay fluid though he has to respect your buttons because he cannot out footsie you. Be ready to deal with his projectile and quick attack. QA is not deadly just annoying. Don't get flustered. If you grab him he will die. Period. Grab release CS all day. Custom camp mode villager. Use Dolphin Jump and then run off stage and swing at him. Use more Bair and Nair so you don't hit the balloons. Still as long as your spacing is on point you can actually tag balloons and not blow up, which is awesome.

 

[Vipermoon]

5th of 49 in singles today. so close but so far... made money at least. Lost to mii brawler and MK. Not sure what to do about mk and the neutral, seems like he can wait us out. Any help or input would be cool. Every game was close, just it was hard to get in, grab release to crescent obv rocks mk's world but getting the grab to begin with on a wary mk is a chore and a half.

4th of something in doubles as well, did ok there also. Pure marth per usual.

I don't know if anyone knows how to fight MK yet but just obvious stuff like the range difference and I like to remind myself MK has horrendous endlag/landlag after everything he does in the game so I get in the punish mindset (edit: rather than aggressive which is usually how I play)

I took 5th as well at a very small local. Lost to Peach, which I have little experience with and Dissent's Diddy Kong. Dissent and I played alot in friendlies. Showed him the lameness of grab release CS. He was amused and sad all at once. I truly feel default Marth might be the best option vs Sheik or possibly Dashing Assault but default everything else. Up B out of shield is just too strong vs her pressure/poke game when you are shielding. For Diddy just gotta stay fluid and be ready to react to monkey flip in neutral or to get out of bad situations. Marth doesnt lose neutral terribly really, it's simply risk vs reward and how bananas force defense. I would go CS vs Diddy.

Vs Ling Ling's Peach, he was just better. I played our resident Peach player after that and I messed him up badly. So there is a skill gap that needs to be closed. His neutral was just stronger.

Dissent also used Pikachu and Villager vs my Marth. Pikachu is again stay fluid though he has to respect your buttons because he cannot out footsie you. Be ready to deal with his projectile and quick attack. QA is not deadly just annoying. Don't get flustered. If you grab him he will die. Period. Grab release CS all day. Custom camp mode villager. Use Dolphin Jump and then run off stage and swing at him. Use more Bair and Nair so you don't hit the balloons. Still as long as your spacing is on point you can actually tag balloons and not blow up, which is awesome.

Villager and Diddy aren't bad match-ups. I've dealt with both in non customs tournaments (pre patch). Diddy wasn't that bad before and now that he can't kill, well, then get rid of his stock first. You have edgeguarding tools the same can't be said for Diddy. He has a good ledge trump but so do you. I don't have much experience against the Villager customs but Marth can power his way through the rest of his moveset with those disjoints and SH air dodge. If you recover fast you can get back before the bowling ball falls down in the perfect arc to catch a Marth off stage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

custom villager is a different beast. Look up ADHD custom villager on youtube

 

[Vipermoon]

custom villager is a different beast. Look up ADHD custom villager on youtube

Oh I saw all that with Nairo and whatnot. I'm just saying I don't have personal experience. The seed and explosives are really dumb but I'm against banning customs nonetheless because I want a metagame to develop in a healthy way since no one can draw the line on which customs to ban. It's just leads to an argument. The TO decides whether to turn customs on or off and be done with it.

The Michigan community is behind the times, lots of tourneys here but most of them are still customs off.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Oh I saw all that with Nairo and whatnot. I'm just saying I don't have personal experience. The seed and explosives are really dumb but I'm against banning customs nonetheless because I want a metagame to develop in a healthy way since no one can draw the line on which customs to ban. It's just leads to an argument. The TO decides whether to turn customs on or off and be done with it.

The Michigan community is behind the times, lots of tourneys here but most of them are still customs off.

I saw that match as well and I was baffeled by it but I respect it and i'm indifferent on customs.

And join the club my scene in Nebraska is behind the times as well in terms of customs and them being a pain to get them all and I only have all of them on my Wii U via custom presets that was copied from a KS player.

 

[Locuan]

Crescent Slash is amazing. I stand by that custom move. Everything else is fine to play around with but Crescent Slash in custom tournaments I see as almost a necessity.

 

[Reizilla]

Should I enter Smash 4 at Showdown? I'm selling shirts right now...

 

[Ecchin]

Today, i've been playing a few matches in For Glory and i made a strange usmash, so i recorded the match.

I watched this several times and it was a phantom hitbox or glitch idk.

What do you think guys?

 

[Locuan]

@ Ecchin , I moved your post to our general thread. This is known. He has an additional hitbox which is the one you saw there. As you noted, it has a pretty long range on both his left and right. There is more information on this hitbox in the frame data thread.

 

[Ecchin]

@ Ecchin , I moved your post to our general thread. This is known. He has an additional hitbox which is the one you saw there. As you noted, it has a pretty long range on both his left and right. There is more information on this hitbox in the frame data thread.

I didn't knew about this hitbox, thanks for the info!

 

[Locuan]

I didn't knew about this hitbox, thanks for the info!

No problem! If you need any help in the future let me know!

 

[Vipermoon]

I didn't knew about this hitbox, thanks for the info!

It's the ground hitbox (only hits grounded opponents). You've seen it many times before the only difference is the sword didn't connect right after.

 

[CURRY]

Does the usmash foot hitbox still stage spike?
I remember discussing this earlier in this thread, but I don't know which page... I may be wrong, it may have been the ledge getup attack stage spike we were discussing, though.
Or maybe the usmash stage spike was mentioned in one of the guides? I dunno.