Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Langston777]

you guys ever fsmash a hyper smash monado shulk?

***** flies

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shulk also wins the war when it comes to fighting close up. Marth's only chance is to fight mid distance and even then I feel like he loses... Shulk's up tilt beats anything marth has to offer in the air. Also Shulk controls the pace of the match too much with speed and jump monado arts.

Which are only a threat for maybe 20 seconds each.

 

[Xisin]

@EL I knew you'd come around to the sonic match up... it isn't terrible. I still say ZSS isn't bad either, I can't put it into words quite yet but the feels aren't there. Sorry I can't logic it lol.

Anyway vs shulk... you have faster frames on your aerials, use those. he isn't quite as laggy as marth on aerial land buit he does have some vulnerabilities. Nair is fairly safe if shulk uses it though. Keep in mind shulks bair also hits in front of him as well as behind him... The whole objective in this mu is to get inside his range. The mu changes depending on what MA he is in.

Speed - marths dtilt is pretty awesome against speed shulk. Do your best to hold ground and avoid rolling, use tilts and ...jabs.. ya jabs lol.

Buster - I say challenge it, hitting a dancing blade on buster shulk is pure sex, aim for it, exploit it. Odds are he wont go for ko moves here either, punish bairs and nairs by shielding -> dancing blade, don't get grabbed.

Shield - his shield buffs marths throw game quite substantially, go for d throw combos and try to get him off the stage, hes much easier to gimp in shield - he may change to jump while off stage though - keep in mind a full charged shieldbreaker WILL NOT break shulks shield while in shield mode, don't bother with it, if the aim is break his shield specifically.

Jump - I'm not quite sure yet. I try to get under him though and punish his landings, watch out for his up b here... its better.

Smash - if you are fighting customs shulk, just run away, it lasts for 10 seconds or less and isnt generally worth the risk to fight at high %. If hes at 80% or higher and using hyper, he dies really easy, punish it if you can... up throw to kill is very viable vs this. Vs. regular smash is sorta the same, play safe, and punish. Up throw is super effective vs smash shulk.

 

[Vipermoon]

For Buster Shulk I recommend counter. His moves are slow enough that you can react and counter. Obvious your counter will hit very hard because 1) shulk will do lots of damage 2) shulk will take lots of damage 3) counter already has a damage modifier. So what is that, a win-win-win?

For Jump Shulk, in the neutral, you have to read his jumps and keep jumping to intercept him. Also, he's more likely to recover high than in other modes. Intercept that too.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Which are only a threat for maybe 20 seconds each.

He can switch between, after the speed is finished he can go to jump and either use it for baiting you or stalling until speed is back... and usually by the time jump ends speed is refreshed.

 

[Zorai]

Solid Marth gameplay by a Marth who made it to grand finals against Larry at a SoCal local.

Losers finals
Grand finals

An entertaining watch.

 

[kj22]

Oh Nicko? He was a wifi Marth in the brawl days who attended tournaments later in brawl's life, did well in his region.

People still respecting marth too much...he can't zone lmao, just dash to shield and he's screwed.

Games 1, 3 and 4 show how hard Marth loses to rushdown characters.

Did great with his ledge traps, Marth needs to close the stock quickly or it becomes hard to kill/catch up

 

[Vipermoon]

That was some solid gameplay, a great Marth indeed. Larry's Fox was definitely better than his Sheik. The first guy, however just got out-played, even though he had match-up advantages.

The first up throw kill he got, I was yelling at him seemingly forever when I saw Sheik was in kill range. Then he does a F or Bthrow and I yell louder, then he finally up throws.

 

[Zorai]

Oh Nicko? He was a wifi Marth in the brawl days who attended tournaments later in brawl's life, did well in his region.

People still respecting marth too much...he can't zone lmao, just dash to shield and he's screwed.

Games 1, 3 and 4 show how hard Marth loses to rushdown characters.

Did great with his ledge traps, Marth needs to close the stock quickly or it becomes hard to kill/catch up

If by rushdown characters you mean Sheik then yes, we all know Sheik's fair is a ***** to deal with. Sheik does the same thing to every other character in the game. But if you notice, he managed to take a game off Larry's Sheik which just goes to show if you capitalize properly you actually have a fairly decent shot at beating Sheik with Marth.

Marth can't zone? Practically all he can do is zone lmao. And setup good traps.

It's still 65:35 Sheik's favor because of how Marth has to work harder but not an auto lose situation by any means.

 

[kj22]

If by rushdown characters you mean Sheik then yes, we all know Sheik's fair is a ***** to deal with. Sheik does the same thing to every other character in the game. But if you notice, he managed to take a game off Larry's Sheik which just goes to show if you capitalize properly you actually have a fairly decent shot at beating Sheik with Marth.

Marth can't zone? Practically all he can do is zone lmao. And setup good traps.

It's still 65:35 Sheik's favor because of how Marth has to work harder but not an auto lose situation by any means.

Shiek and Fox and prolly Mario tbh. They get to press buttons, Marth doesn't, especially when he's getting juggled.

Marth can't "zone" without giving up large stage control. Literally nothing he has is safe on shield, his opponents could've walked up to him, pressed shield, and dash attacked/dash grabbed him. Instead they held shield outside his range and watched him throw out hitboxes then ran into them. The best zoning tool marth has is bair and dtilt, and those can easily be dealt with by walking forward and taking the stage control Marth's giving up for free rolling around the dtilt/jumping above.

Larry gave him a lot of free damage by trying to land into Marth and honestly played way more aggressive than he needed to. If you watched the first game where Larry trounced him he played way much smarter when he got hit, going for the ledge and not into Marth like he did all of the 2nd game. Idk why he changed his style up the 2nd game.

Shiek can make the mu terrible for Marth; Larry likes being really aggressive though which led to lots of trades and openings. If Larry had needle camped, smartly rolled around Marth's "zoning", and played super defensively, that would've been an entirely different set. Good thing about shiek is that she can be played both ways and still be amazing, unlike other low/mid-tiers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The quickest way to lose to Marth is to CHALLENGE him. Marth can beat anyones buttons with either range, speed or a combination of both. You beat Marth by having the sudden realization that you can just NOT use your face to block attacks. You have a shield for that.

Which is why I only play Marth in custom tournies. CS takes away that "shield any attack for free damage option"

That said d-tilt is safe and so is bair. You can't continue to pressure on block, but if they just block them Marth doesnt eat free damage.

Yes SH can beat d-tilt, thats where you mix it up. Every option has a counter and every counter has a counter for that.

Sheik still beats Marth though obviously. Also d-tilt doesn't give up stage. idk why you would say that. If someone rolls behind you then you didn't give up stage so much as trade the amount of stage you control. Unless you meant most of his options vs a commitment in which he gives up his position aside from those two moves, which does have some truth to it.

 

[Langston777]

@ Emblem Lord can you explain how CS "takes away shield any attack for free damage?" or like show me a video of you using it in such a way. unsure what you mean, i don't see the use of the move other than catching people offguard or fthrow followup. i just have Dashing Assault and Iai for custom marth, if i choose to use him.

also i laugh at mario mains that still whine about that mu. mario is a pain in this game, marth can win but he has to play as lame as possible. some fool on anthers was whining mario needs a range buff. plumbers are already good enough in this game, please.

 

[kj22]

Mario is ******** in this game. Double bair of short hop, safe dair on shield, broken /invincible upsmash, great reflector, great air mobility.
Mario is definitely one of those "press buttons characters to win". Not saying he's mindless, but he def can attack attack attack attack attack

 

[Quickhero]

@ Langston777 You can abuse shields by going for a grab, get a f-throw off, and CS for a true combo.

 

[Xisin]

basically what this guy said, with crescent marth gets a respectable grab game. Some people will iterally shield/ be evasive and win vs marth due to the fact he has a garbage grab game at mid to lowhigh percent. Once they become super high percent you get a kill throw but meh. Counterpicking halberd can remedy this, but many now ban the stage vs me.

I'll say this again - crescent slash has NO drawbacks. you can still go deep with it, you merely need to change your recovery angle. Well you cant drop straight down from the ledge, but that's it. USE IT.

 

[Zorai]

Mario is ******** in this game. Double bair of short hop, safe dair on shield, broken /invincible fsmash, great reflector, great air mobility.
Mario is definitely one of those "press buttons characters to win". Not saying he's mindless, but he def can attack attack attack attack attack

This sounds like a complaint you heard at a 2008 brawl tournament lmfao

Any competent Marth is perfectly fine with Mario throwing out all the horribly ranged attacks he can handle. That's what Marth wants. Emblem Lord has already said this but you still like to throw out these complaints lmao.
Marth solidly beats Mario if he plays the matchup properly, there's really no argument. Now if you play it like you played in your videos against that Shulk, I can see why you think Mario destroys Marth (lol).

Sorry dude most of your posts just sound low level and/or tunnel visioned. I especially liked the one where you said Marth is incapable of zoning and proceeded to complain about how nothing he has is safe on shield, and how shielding is all you need to do to beat Marth.

It doesn't sound like Marth will bring you much success in the future. Might wanna try an easier character like Luigi or Sonic.

 

[Xisin]

you prob shouldn't talk to others like that, makes you sound condescending. As far as I know kj is a pretty legit marth. I know the players he plays against are fairly high quality. Owning a characters weakness is just as valuable as owning their strengths, which really is what kj is talking about.

 

[Quickhero]

Honestly, the DB buff is great, but the GREATEST BUFF Sakurai could give would be to make CS his default up-b.

I still play Marth using default moves, and I like abusing the SLIGHTLY better edgeguard game it gives you, but seriously I would love to use Crescent Slash in default tournaments or even For Glory because it's just such a great move and I would always ditch Dolphin Slash for CS except for MAYBE Captain Falcon. :\

 

[Locuan]

@ Zorai there's no need to call others out like that. It's fair to have different stances on an issue but your final statements where completely unnecessary.

 

[kj22]

This sounds like a complaint you heard at a 2008 brawl tournament lmfao

Any competent Marth is perfectly fine with Mario throwing out all the horribly ranged attacks he can handle. That's what Marth wants. Emblem Lord has already said this but you still like to throw out these complaints lmao.
Marth solidly beats Mario if he plays the matchup properly, there's really no argument. Now if you play it like you played in your videos against that Shulk, I can see why you think Mario destroys Marth (lol).

Sorry dude most of your posts just sound low level and/or tunnel visioned. I especially liked the one where you said Marth is incapable of zoning and proceeded to complain about how nothing he has is safe on shield, and how shielding is all you need to do to beat Marth.

It doesn't sound like Marth will bring you much success in the future. Might wanna try an easier character like Luigi or Sonic.

NOWHERE did I talk about Mario vs marth, I was talking about Mario in general being vastly improved in this game vs the previous. I listed great traits that Mario has in this game, how is that complaining? You're right "there is no argument" because there was never one to begin with, you sound overeager to try and pick a fight with me and belittle me to make yourself sound smart. You're starting an argument with me over something I never even said.

All these personal attacks and no substance. When did I EVER say "Mario destroys marth"? Idk what you're reading but its definitely not my posts.

Now on to what I DID say.

Shielding and smart rolling is all you need beat marth in this game sadly. And IIRC no "zoning" move he has is safe on shield beside maybe bair. You may get away with dtilt but there are several moves that outrange it and it has no shield pushback, meaning a dash to shield approach will beat it, a very common approach.

Marth can't swing fast and free like other characters. He can't cover as many options either due to the large cool down on his attacks, and his air mobility isn't great. Combine those things together and you'll see why I say "Marth can't zone". Maybe if you perfectly read every approach option yeah, but zoning isn't about reading your opponent properly its about limiting their options and forcing them to react a certain way. If marth can barely touch a shield for free, and can't multiple approach options at once, tell me how he can be an effective zoner?

...I'll let my results speak for themselves. And the fact that you called Gnes "that Shulk" shows me how clueless you are.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

This sounds like a complaint you heard at a 2008 brawl tournament lmfao

Any competent Marth is perfectly fine with Mario throwing out all the horribly ranged attacks he can handle. That's what Marth wants. Emblem Lord has already said this but you still like to throw out these complaints lmao.
Marth solidly beats Mario if he plays the matchup properly, there's really no argument. Now if you play it like you played in your videos against that Shulk, I can see why you think Mario destroys Marth (lol).

Sorry dude most of your posts just sound low level and/or tunnel visioned. I especially liked the one where you said Marth is incapable of zoning and proceeded to complain about how nothing he has is safe on shield, and how shielding is all you need to do to beat Marth.

It doesn't sound like Marth will bring you much success in the future. Might wanna try an easier character like Luigi or Sonic.

Thing is kj is not exactly wrong about Mario IMO.....I don't really agree with his statement saying Marth can't zone, but that whole second half of your post was just unnecessary. I am not saying Marth does bad against Mario, but from the way Marth is in this game, once they get past your spacing there is not much you can do to get them away from you. If you are having a bad day or something don't take out your frustration on people who are not even trying to start anything. You never seem condescending in your other posts.

 

[Emblem Lord]

mario is def in the top 3 most button pressonist characters in the game.

Marth wins but mario just rolls his face on the controller and stuff just happens.

Langston there are several vids of me using cs floating around on youtube and in the marth video thread.

 

[Vipermoon]

I definitely think Mario solidly beats Marth in this game. The match-up isn't horrible for us but it being only about a 60-40 in Brawl and considering how basically Mario and Marth switched places between games where Mario gets/keeps the "broken" (I don't think it's broken but I'm gonna use that word in quotes) moveset/frame data and Marth no longer has that. By moveset I mean everything: end lag, autocancel, land lag, start-up.

Mario can safely throw out smash attacks (smartly, to avoid counter reads (since no human can usually point blank react to Mario's smash speeds with a counter) and has among the best (if not the best) combo games around. This guy has multiple true combos into Fair spike for example. All he has to do is get in and (assuming high level) and smartly spam his attacks and grabs once he does. Marth can't do much out of shield to really keep and scare Mario away.

Marth has range and disjoint of course but even a lot Mario's attacks don't have bad range. I'd say the match-up is reverse from Brawl, as it for a lot of Marth's match-ups in this game.

 

[Langston777]

@ Zorai i never implied mario beats marth and neither did kj.
i saw you saying marth got a ton of buffs after the patch, and then you got mad at people for not listening to your baseless findings. that just implies you hardly knew the timing and qualities for any of marths moves to begin with. and you're calling someone else out now while making assumptions? ayy lmao

i was just stating how it's dumb when mario mains get ass pained about marth. like "oh no, we have a bad match up! woe is me!" we have 4:6's across the board. spamming kill moves is a viable mix up for mario and we're playing the hero king of committing to ****ing tilts.

like, alright. their smashes will catch marth's hand if he's not spaced perfectly and every move marth throws out shoves his face right in range of mario's fsmash. so you really have to space yourself properly and play patiently. i've fought marios that go for the epic online 3 upsmash in a row techique, but you can just fsmash them if you time it right. still, it's pretty risky and hard to do against a good mobile mario.

if marth overcommits at all he's going to give mario that opening he needs to either wrack up damage or land a kill move. and that is why the match up is not as awful as they think it is. marth can't go braindead and just win.

 

[Shaya]

Marth pretty much destroyed Mario in Brawl.
That wasn't a 60:40. One of the characters with legitimately zero options against neutral air and their mains adopted a position of confidence for being able to punish our disrespectful fairs. Mario really didn't have a player base at high level tournaments, so generally there wasn't going to be much cohesion in opinion between boards.

Mario/Marth is probably evenish more than an advantage one way or another. The mobility specs give Mario a lot he needed against Marth, he jumps and he can land safely, this was never the case in Brawl. He gets hit confirm follows up very well that set up to juggle situations we don't have a good answer to. Metrics wise though, swords are still good against him, probably would opt for Marth over ZSS if I had issues because outdoing the best frame data in the game without disjoints is a lot harder than it's usually worth.

Also Zorai, I don't know who the **** you are. To me you're a nameless idiot who's shown up on this board and just about everyone dislikes your presence. Fix yourself up, we're a loyal community here who most of us have a great deal of realism in relation to our fighting game experiences. You clash and stray on opinion on just about everything you say and never actually back up your claims at all, you seem to have a low to mid level understanding of Smash in general but talk yourself up with nothing but asinine crap. Calling one of the only Marth players in the world with actual results low level ... you've made enemies out of just about everyone here for it.
Learn your place.
There's only two responses to this by the way. Acceptance (and we don't hold grudges) or you leave.

 

[Emblem Lord]

http://smashboards.com/threads/cres...mbo-on-short-characters.373726/#post-19047479

I forgot this was a thing. Marcina only two chars with true grab releases with customs.

Can you say...metagame?

 

[Zorai]

LMFAO at all the nerdrage over me saying nothing offensive at all holy ****. I think that alone says a lot already so I'll make this quick.

I barely even read these walls of texts but from what I can tell you're visibly upset Shaya. Re-read what I posted and then read that ad hominem nerdrage you took the time to type out for me. For someone with 24,000 posts you'd think you would've realized "just about everyone" does not equate to "Shaya and KJ" LOL.

 

[Quickhero]

LMFAO at all the nerdrage over me saying nothing offensive at all holy ****. I think that alone says a lot already so I'll make this quick.

I barely even read these walls of texts but from what I can tell you're visibly upset Shaya. Re-read what I posted and then read that ad hominem nerdrage you took the time to type out for me. For someone with 24,000 posts you'd think you would've realized "just about everyone" does not equate to "Shaya and KJ" LOL.

You know, you could also realize that you were in the wrong to resort to ad hominem as well. Despite how salty KJ sounded when he made the Mario post, (no offense) it still didn't make it right for you to say what you said in that manner when you (I'm pretty sure) haven't seen KJ play. KJ is actually a pretty good Marth (same with Gnes' Shulk) and he has quite the experience.

I don't actually believe you intended to insult KJ, but more like you just didn't really word properly. Just try to make sure your wording doesn't make sure you sound condescending.

 

[Xisin]

the grab release thign works like a charm. love it and have been using it. I get so much rage cause of it sometimes lol especially since there's a really good mk player in our area. it works on pika too My only disappointment is, is that it doesn't work on thin/short miis... and theres a really prominent short/thin mii brawler doing work in my region atm. Works on mario too iirc? i forget... If their legs dangle it works... wit the exception of freaking mii brawler. edit - ya thanks for the link, didn't know it worked on villager.

Also @ Zorai you just did the same thing, but this time to another person, you did the same thing to me when I posted some of my tournament winnings, it took me beating you 7/7 times for you to even acknowledge skill :/ You need to stop talking down to people like that, especially when you don't know them. Keep in mind this forum isn't particularly anonymous like the rest of the internet, we actually do meet up in person due to the nature of how smash is played. So talking to people like that isn't particularly good on you.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Xisin The combo works on Mario, as long as he doesn't land on a platform; otherwise he can shield it. It's really annoying on Battlefield but as long as you get the grab near the ledge you should be good.

 

[Zano]

the grab release thign works like a charm. love it and have been using it. I get so much rage cause of it sometimes lol especially since there's a really good mk player in our area. it works on pika too My only disappointment is, is that it doesn't work on thin/short miis... and theres a really prominent short/thin mii brawler doing work in my region atm. Works on mario too iirc? i forget... If their legs dangle it works... wit the exception of freaking mii brawler. edit - ya thanks for the link, didn't know it worked on villager.

I know no region will absolutely ever agree to a standard ruleset invovling miis, but isn't the one generally agreed upon rule that they have to be default size? I haven't heard of any region that allowed otherwise due to the drastic changes of changing the size/weight

 

[Xisin]

you've never played midwest smash then. At one point in brawl luigis mansion was a legal stage. I was under the impression that if customs were on mii sizes were fair game.. matter of fact i think thin/short is meta to mii brawler. I use skyloft as a common counterpick here as well since its legal here.

 

[Locuan]

So guys, we got new thread prefixes! On another note, Marth tourney results thread, yay or nay?

 

[Quickhero]

@ Locuan Marth now has a lot of notable tournament results? Or is it just AirVault making it to top 8?

I think @ kj22 made it to grand finals on a tournament, and so did some other person, so I guess we can do it now. Marth has been starting to get successful results so that makes me very happy. :3

 

[Locuan]

@ Locuan Marth now has a lot of notable tournament results? Or is it just AirVault making it to top 8?

I think @ kj22 made it to grand finals on a tournament, and so did some other person, so I guess we can do it now. Marth has been starting to get successful results so that makes me very happy. :3

There's actually good tournament results around; @ kj22 , @ Emblem Lord , etc.

 

[kj22]

Tournament results thread would be nice(: Especially if we could find a way to link vids of the marth player at the tournament with the result somehow?

I'm imagining me looking at marth player X, with 3 different tourny results, I click on one where he got 3rd, it links to the tournament page/video thread/youtube playlist of his matches there

Or is that too much?

 

[Locuan]

We could definitely do that @ kj22 . Although we would need to have specific links. Anyways, this is how we could do it.

Tourney results:

User | Result | Video - Tournament Matches | Tournament Result Link
@ kj22 | 13th / 58 | Link to videos | SAM 3 Results

In other words, have every user with results be in a table and link appropriately in the next columns.

That's one idea.

 

[kj22]

We could definitely do that @ kj22 . Although we would need to have specific links. Anyways, this is how we could do it.

Tourney results:

User | Result | Video - Tournament Matches | Tournament Result Link
@ kj22 | 13th / 58 | Link to videos | SAM 3 Results

In other words, have every user with results be in a table and link appropriately in the next columns.

That's one idea.

Perfect! i didn't realize you could make tables on smashboards...technology is so cool

 

[Locuan]

i didn't realize you could make tables on smashboards...technology is so cool

Seeing as most of the pinned thread have tables, I'll take my time to mention the following.

Looks like someone hasn't read the competitive directory, or the frame data thread, or the match-up thread.

 

[kj22]

Seeing as most of the pinned thread have tables, I'll take my time to mention the following.

Looks like someone hasn't read the competitive directory, or the frame data thread, or the match-up thread.

o.o....*quickly thinks of an excuse*

uh..uh...uhhh thought that was a mod exclusive thing