Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

All these buffs would make Marth go well beyond god tier. While we all know Marth needs something, he can't have everything or any sense of balance this game has will be far out of whack.

Are you kidding? This is all subtle, together they'd probably make him high-mid or high tier with customs at the max. He'd still have nothing compared to Brawl and Melee. Those buffs still wouldn't completely undo the nerfs.

He'd be god tier if he had all nerfs un-did, previous damage potential restored (even if adjusted a bit to Smash 4 levels), Melee IASA and range, Brawl hitboxes and landing lag, and Smash 4 counter/double jump/shield breaker. Only then would Marth be the Metaknight of Smash 4. It would basically take every strength he had in each game combined.

This is what I said before:

I agree that while this game does less damage overall, Marth does even less. I would bring Dsmash front hit to 9% from 8, tipper to 13 from 12. First hit of Nair up 1% to 3 non tip and 4 tip. I'd raise Utilt to 7 and 10% from 6 and 9. And dancing blade 3-down needs to go back up to 4 and 5% up from 3 and 4. Subtle changes that are definitely not uncalled for nor are they unreasonable.

As far as other buffs. Less end lag with Utilt, Usmash, Dsmash, dash attack, and dancing blade 4-down. Let Fair hit above Marth again (I hate it when crap doesnt match animations), meaning give it frame 5 hitboxes. There are many more moves that need either hitboxes on more frames (ex. jab) or larger hitboxes in general (ex. dolphin slash, grab) to match animations.

Brawl/Melee autocancel was kind of OP and Brawl landing lag was definitely OP. So all I ask is for Marth's 4 fastest aerials to autocancel in the low 30 frame range and give Dair its Brawl autocancel. Lastly, Melee had a nice consistent 15 frame (non L cancel) landing lag on Fair, Nair, and Uair. So if Fair and Uair matched Nairs current 15 frame landing lag I'd be content.

I'd love for Dair to have slightly less landing lag so we can combo more consistently off a landing Dair ground-spike but that's asking for too much since the Dairs, Bairs, and Up B already has less landing lag than previous Smash.

These are the gist of my Marth dreams I hope you guys can agree. It's fun to think of these things.

So what? A little better autocancel, landing lag, slightly less end lag on a couple moves, a % damage here and there, and animation/hitbox corrections. None of that can do as much as you say.

 

[Langston777]

fighting falcon is mad boring in this game
that's my biggest beef with the match up

 

[Zorai]

generally discouraging Wario from playing too passively

I'm surprised you think Wario shouldn't play passively vs. Marth. I play both characters and I think this is one matchup Wario should be really passive in. Marth will stuff all of Wario's moves very easily otherwise.

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

I'm surprised you think Wario shouldn't play passively vs. Marth. I play both characters and I think this is one matchup Wario should be really passive in. Marth will stuff all of Wario's moves very easily otherwise.

I think by "passively" he more means care free, without having to respect Marth's options. With dancing blade being able to get through most of Wario's options he has to be on his toes and look out for it. Not just passively throwing out moves. But i think passively can be determined as defensively.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Are you kidding? Snip.

Right, the buffs would bring him up, but then he'd also have ridiculous kill power on top of that. Hence top tier. With the lag buffs alone it makes all his worst MUs at least even. The only reason Marth does poorly is lack of a neutral game. Give it back and he's back where he always has been. Add all the extra bonuses and people will cry about a ban.

I'd love the changes, but unless the rest of the cast gets similar treatment, it would be unfair.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth does not lack a neutral game and he does not have rediculous kill power. But I'm not continuing to argue with this thought that that's all it takes to make Marth top tier (before you said "way beyond god tier" or something crazy like that).

 

[Quickhero]

So...has there ever been a game where a character has 2 legitimate clones? Because Marth will have 2 and you'll have to pay to get one of them.

Meh, at the very least it means I also don't have to buy it, I would say that it's just a dumb move but well....a lot of people who don't even play Roy will buy him anyways for some reason.

 

[LordShade67]

TECHNICALLY, Brawl with Falco and Wolf, but only in terms of specials and Landmaster. Wolf's normals were different enough to separate him from Fox/Falco.

That said, only reason I'd buy Roy is for a full roster. That, and I've found a new punching bag. :D

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm so happy Roy is back. I'll probably secondary him unless he has disgusting frame data like in Melee.

Btw, yes, Dr. Mario and Luigi, especially in Melee.

 

[Gamegenie222]

To buy the DLC so you can practice the character yourself and for tournaments. No one likes being a player who plays DLC characters and the main setup of the tourney doesnt have your character. Also the trophys and what not.

EDIT: I think one of the KOF games had like 3 Kyo's I believe it was 2002 or 2002 UM.

 

[LordShade67]

Btw, yes, Dr. Mario and Luigi, especially in Melee.

Oh, yeah. I forgot about those two. Good lord, it's been ages since I played Melee.

 

[Locuan]

Roy is back... And he has his Melee Neutral B... Well then. I may be switching mains.

 

[Loachy]

Holy smokes, they actually did it
He rocks that pink, too

 

[Emblem Lord]

So...has there ever been a game where a character has 2 legitimate clones? Because Marth will have 2 and you'll have to pay to get one of them.

Meh, at the very least it means I also don't have to buy it, I would say that it's just a dumb move but well....a lot of people who don't even play Roy will buy him anyways for some reason.

So like...you really have never played Street Fighter or any Mortal Kombat have you?

 

[Langston777]

i hope roy is good. i'm sure he'll be satisfying to play regardless

might switch to roy if that's the case, but i'll never drop Marth completely

 

[Vipermoon]

From what I've seen Roy has an extremely fast jab, Ftilt, and Utilt. He also is obviously a fast faller but oddly seems to have amazing air speed. But calling this character a clone is a stretch. Everything is different. He just overall seems to have a faster moveset and style. Even dancing blade looks to have less end lag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-hbBZ9V09I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvkNLOwAvuU
Actually this one's better for showing his entire moveset, and shorter. Damn those are really fast moves. I'm jealous Marth can't do this stuff.

 

[Emblem Lord]

From what I am seeing Roy craps on all of the FE reps handidly. His throws alone look like they create tight trap/set-up situations. His d-throw sent wii fit trainer NO where. She just popped right in front of him. His f-throw looked serious for setting up airdodge traps.

From what I'm seeing Roy has real potential from his buttons and throws, but sacrifices raw kill power and has slightly less range. I'm willing to bet his whole DED doesnt combo as well as Marth's.

Doesnt matter as he is already showing himself to be superior to Marth in neutral, which is what matters.

New main acquired

 

[Vipermoon]

So the Nintendo eshop has too much traffic, we'll have fun with Roy later. I'll download the patch and see if there are any balance changes. If there are, unlike last time (when I wasn't home), I will immediately find every little detail that might have changed with Marth.

Edit: Wow this patch is taking forever

 

[Vipermoon]

MARTH'S JAB IS AMAZING OOOOOMMMMMMGGGGGG.
THANK YOU SAKURAI!!!!!!!!!! THIS JAB BRINGS MARTH UP 5-10 SPOTS ON THE TIER LIST.

DONT GIVE A CRAP THAT THIS IS A DOUBLE POST, IT IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH!

Alright more changes: Utilt MIGHT have earlier IASA (highly likely). Utilt is STRONGER. By a good amount. Same damage.

 

[kj22]

yeah i thought his jab was faster as well. and nair having less ending lag

 

[AetherStorm]

There was definitely a balance patch. From what I've seen, I don't think Marth got changed though.

EDIT: I guess I didn't test his jab, thanks ninja posters.

 

[Quickhero]

MARTH'S JAB IS AMAZING OOOOOMMMMMMGGGGGG.
THANK YOU SAKURAI!!!!!!!!!! THIS JAB BRINGS MARTH UP 5-10 SPOTS ON THE TIER LIST.

DONT GIVE A CRAP THAT THIS IS A DOUBLE POST, IT IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH!

HUASDHIASHDAKDAKDHAKJDK HUH???

PLEASE SHOW ME EVIDENCE OF THIS BEING TRUE!!!!!

 

[AetherStorm]

HUASDHIASHDAKDAKDHAKJDK HUH???

PLEASE SHOW ME EVIDENCE OF THIS BEING TRUE!!!!!

Just try it out. It's so sexy now.

 

[Quickhero]

Just try it out. It's so sexy now.

It FEELS faster, but I'm not entirely sure. Thank goodness I haven't patched my Wii-U yet, time to see! If it's placebo I'll be so sad.

 

[AetherStorm]

It FEELS faster, but I'm not entirely sure. Thank goodness I haven't patched my Wii-U yet, time to see! If it's placebo I'll be so sad.

Not faster, but much better knockback and angle.

EDIT: Unfortunately, the hitboxes don't match the animation on jab 2. You actually can't even hit with it at over 120ish. (I'm practicing on Lucina)

 

[Quickhero]

Not faster, but much better knockback and angle.

Yeah, THAT I could definitely see.

Any other obvious changes? I'm testing things out now and I want to make sure I can knock things out, did someone say anything about f-air? I heard Roy's f-air is slightly less laggy than previous Marth so I wonder if they buffed Marth's as well.

Confirmation 1: Marth's jab now registers as a true combo against Meta Knight at early percentages, more testing needs to be done to figure out the exact percentages.

 

[AetherStorm]

Yeah, THAT I could definitely see.

Any other obvious changes? I'm testing things out now and I want to make sure I can knock things out, did someone say anything about f-air? I heard Roy's f-air is slightly less laggy than previous Marth so I wonder if they buffed Marth's as well.

Not that I can see. That jab 2 hitbox is really pissing me off though. It's so obviously not right, and it's just crazy how they didn't catch that.

 

[Vipermoon]

Alright yeah so Jab 1 does 1 less damage non tipper and tip, but leads to everything. Whether you want to true combo it to jab 2, or bait an air dodge, maybe get some Utilt, or idk tipper FSMASH, grab....

Utilt is stronger tipper and non tipper, and looking at the animation, Marth seems to be able to start another Utilt SOONER

All aerials are exactly the same. At first I thought Nair had less land lag but I don't think so. They do probably the same knockback. Same damage, horrible autocancel, and landing lag

It's true, jab 2 doesn't connect after 100% even though it looks like it should. However, above 100, if you got tipper jab 1, and wait just a little bit, you can get tipper jab 2 still a true combo. But this isnt too important, you want to kill them at high percents, so just use jab 1 into something else. At low percents both jabs work perfect thats all I need

It seems you can get jab 2 earlier, like maybe input after frame 18ish instead of 20

OMG, I am loving this. Jab 1 to tipper Fsmash is DABOMB

ANOTHER Utilt change, the body hitbox (the one that does 5%), now sends them upwards. I hate that, it used to send them horizontal (off stage)

At first I thought DS had better range for the 11% hitbox but I doubt it, it's probably the same strength too, hard to tell. Possible that it's stronger.

Grab range is exactly the same

Dsmash, unfortunately is exactly the same

Uthrow is exactly the same

Ftilt is exactly the same

Dtilt is exactly the same

Fsmash, same

Usmash, same

can no longer jab lock with jab. GRRRRRR

Can't do 2 aerials in a short hop. All aerials are the same once again, maybe Nair has less landing lag. Maybe

 

[Quickhero]

@ Vipermoon Are you sure about that? I've been trying out u-tilt and it seems to be the exact same. 6% non tipper 10% tipper for both 1.07 and 1.08. The knockback seems to be the exact same too.

I'm getting footage now, but the frame data for u-tilt seems really similar, if not the same. At times it feels like I get shield off SLIGHTLY sooner at 1.07 so I really need to record this to confirm myself.

 

[Vipermoon]

@ Vipermoon Are you sure about that? I've been trying out u-tilt and it seems to be the exact same. 6% non tipper 10% tipper for both 1.07 and 1.08. The knockback seems to be the exact same too.

I'm getting footage now, but the frame data for u-tilt seems really similar, if not the same. At times it feels like I get shield off SLIGHTLY sooner at 1.07 so I really need to record this to confirm myself.

Utilt used to kill Marth at 140something tipper on an omega stage. Now it kills before 130. And not 10%, 9%

Wow, it kills Marth on Smashville at freakin 127%

 

[AetherStorm]

Just killed a Falcon at 150% with an uptilt while he was on the ground in front of me. Dunno what that means.

 

[Vipermoon]

Just killed a Falcon at 150% with an uptilt while he was on the ground in front of me. Dunno what that means.

That wouldnt have happened pre-patch without rage if he was grounded

 

[Vipermoon]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

YOU CAN NO LONGER JAB LOCK WITH JAB 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't forgot I've been updating a post a few posts ago with what changed and didnt change.

And now I'm starting to think Nair has less landing lag than before. Compared to Uair, which is supposed to lag on landing only 1 more frame, it seems lag 2-3 frames more than Nair. So nair could have reduced landing lag

 

[Quickhero]

That wouldnt have happened pre-patch without rage if he was grounded

Can confirm KO power increase in u-tilt, I guess it just scales better now but yes CF can die to an f-tilt at 150% without any range when he couldn't previously.

Would you guys like to see the video footage, btw? It's a hassle for me to plug in and upload but if you guys think it will help you then it'll be worth it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Can confirm KO power increase in u-tilt, I guess it just scales better now but yes CF can die to an f-tilt at 150% without any range when he couldn't previously.

Would you guys like to see the video footage, btw? It's a hassle for me to plug in and upload but if you guys think it will help you then it'll be worth it.

I'm sure falcon can die way before 150, and no I dont need it at least


Before someones asks, no you can't do 2 aerials in a short hop

Edit: Yeah Utilt is definitely faster. Instead of lasting 42 frames, it's somewhere between 36-39

 

[Quickhero]

I'm sure falcon can die way before 150, and no I dont need it at least

Before someones asks, no you can't do 2 aerials in a short hop

Edit: Yeah Utilt is definitely faster. Instead of lasting 42 frames, it's somewhere between 36-39

Please send me footage then, because at most u-tilt is 39 frames at best. No way is the subtle difference I'm (probably) noticing more than that, it's a really small change but it could go a long way.

 

[Vipermoon]

Please send me footage then, because at most u-tilt is 39 frames at best. No way is the subtle difference I'm (probably) noticing more than that, it's a really small change but it could go a long way.

I have no decent way of sending footage. You can do the same stuff I do. I was simply comparing it to our 35 frame Ftilt. I'd say 37-39



But anyway, we need to discuss the fact that we have no good way of jab locking! Ftilt only works at low percents and sends them too far for the Fsmash anyway!

 

[Quickhero]

But anyway, we need to discuss the fact that we have no good way of jab locking! Ftilt only works at low percents and sends them too far for the Fsmash anyway!

Do you mean like a foot stool/slide off platform thing and then you lock via jab 1? If that's what you mean, then...wait, you could foot stool jab lock to f-smash before????? If what I got from that is correct then man how did I not know that??

If that's not what you meant by jab lock and you just like using jab1 to follow up to something, jab1 to DB still works wonders and it's actually a really good way to rack up damage especially when combined with a perfect pivot jab.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fair still doesn't hit on frame 5 (above Marth) even though the animation still says it does....

EDIT: The back hit of Utilt combos into Uair

THIS IS WEIRD: Marth moves forward while doing Utilt!! Did he do that before? I would have noticed. They have to be consecutive Utilts.

Lucina sometimes say "ha" while doing up B

Lucina's Ftilt does more than 10.5%, up from 9.97%

Think I have proof that nair has less landing lag. First hit of tippers Nair combos into Utilt well before 100%. It wasnt like that before

Do you mean like a foot stool/slide off platform thing and then you lock via jab 1? If that's what you mean, then...wait, you could foot stool jab lock to f-smash before????? If what I got from that is correct then man how did I not know that??

If that's not what you meant by jab lock and you just like using jab1 to follow up to something, jab1 to DB still works wonders and it's actually a really good way to rack up damage especially when combined with a perfect pivot jab.

A jab lock is when you hit someone with a low knockback move in the first few frames of them laying down (after being hit). A great thing I always used to do with Marth was short hop sour Fair into the opponent, land, and if they dont tech they are laying in front of you. So you jab, then they are forced to do a normal get-up because of the jab lock properties. This lets you charge a tipper Fsmash (the jab pushes them slightly into Fsmash tipper range). Now jab 1 picks them up off the ground into standing position. Due to knockback reasons. Fair puts them in tumble animation after usually 40-60% depending on weight. And at that point tipper Fsmash kills

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Welp, since the new DLC came out today I think it is about time I come out of "retirement". I probably still won't be playing as much as I used to due to problems with my 3DS circle pad (Yes I still don't have a Wii U) and having a ton of my time playing videos games being taken up by TF2. I hope that they balanced the game again and maybe this time made Marth a little better, but even though I have not tried them I really want to secondary Ryu and get good with Roy.