Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Quickhero]

Welp, since the new DLC came out today I think it is about time I come out of "retirement". I probably still won't be playing as much as I used to due to problems with my 3DS circle pad (Yes I still don't have a Wii U) and having a ton of my time playing videos games being taken up by TF2. I hope that they balanced the game again and maybe this time made Marth a little better, but even though I have not tried them I really want to secondary Ryu and get good with Roy.

They made Marth a little better by buffing his u-tilt and jab, which, while small, they help him become an even better character! Video footage can be shown here.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjMg6Bkygjg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7pSAsoxjqc

In other news, I'm curious as to how much it costs to just get a new circle pad. I mean I saw a bundle circle pad replacements for like $20, so surely it can't be that expensive for you.

 

[Langston777]

Roy is awesome

Marth is awesome

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

Anyone else at least having that nostalgia feeling of tippers being easier to land. I don't know if my spacing is just finally getting better or they made it easier by increasing the hitbox or something.

 

[Quickhero]

Anyone else at least having that nostalgia feeling of tippers being easier to land. I don't know if my spacing is just finally getting better or they made it easier by increasing the hitbox or something.

You're becoming better at a rather difficult character. It's thanks to your improvement as a player and not any patches.

 

[KillLock]

Jab is really nice now, has a lot of combo potential and considering how fast it is, is a must use in our arsenal. Definitely makes Marth's ground game that much stronger which is what we needed. Uptilt is buffed and it's a great option to challenge air attacks at higher percents to land a kill, coupled with rage can land you even earlier K.O's. Might just be me but dancing blades consistency might have been touched up a bit.

Marth is feeling better with this recent patch, as small as the buffs seem they compliment his playstyle a lot.

 

[Severn]

So is Roy better than Marth in this game? I've heard alot of people saying but idk if that's just day 1 hype or actually legit. I haven't had the time to play with him properly yet.

 

[Locuan]

So is Roy better than Marth in this game? I've heard alot of people saying but idk if that's just day 1 hype or actually legit. I haven't had the time to play with him properly yet.

A lot of day 1 hype. Once we get 1.08 data for Marth we can also compare and see what's different. For now though, Roy's 1.08 data compared to Marth's 1.06 is better in most cases. For example, N-air comes out frame 4 while Marth's comes out in frame 6. Less landing lag by 1 or 2 frames in all but one of his aerials.

Also the amount of people saying Roy is a rush-down character... Reminds me of when the game released and people claimed the same for Lucina.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think the hype is there because the meta revolves ALOT around grab reward which Roy has and which Marth was known for in past games. Marth is clearly superior in terms of pokes and aerial containment game. Roy has a direct reward though for doing an action and that makes people excited because its easy to see what you are doing right and how you will excel, rather then mastering neutral game concepts which takes a long time and the reward isnt as visible to the untrained eye.

Basically Roy is flashy.

 

[kj22]

If uptilt truly does kill better I'm going to invest in mastering perfect pivot reverse up-tilt. Great non super committed kill move to add to the arsenal.
My thoughts of play against Roy (albeit as sonic/yoshi) remind me of Marth in lots of ways, haven't seen anything I'm to impressed with aside from his jab and up-b. Hopefully I'll get to try him today and see what all the fuss is about, and if I think he's decent/might help in certain mu I may add him to my repertoire.

 

[Locuan]

I've been seriously considering changing my c stick to tilts for that and other reasons @ kj22 . Although I love perfect pivoting Smashes on ledge recoveries for kills so I'll see if I adapt. On another note, using the c-stick for tilts, I could maybe see a more interesting neutral game on gameplay. Perfect pivoting tilts (U-tilt, D-tilt) with regular inputs is difficult and I don't have the speed to do it. I'll have to mess around with it. I have been doing a lot of perfect pivot jabs though. And it helps out a lot.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

A lot of day 1 hype. Once we get 1.08 data for Marth we can also compare and see what's different. For now though, Roy's 1.08 data compared to Marth's 1.06 is better in most cases. For example, N-air comes out frame 4 while Marth's comes out in frame 6. Less landing lag by 1 or 2 frames in all but one of his aerials.

Also the amount of people saying Roy is a rush-down character... Reminds me of when the game released and people claimed the same for Lucina.

Technically he's more built to be "on-your-face" char than Lucina though, since getting best out of him is to have most of his sword be hit inside your opponent. Also his shorter range this time has to kinda force you to close to your opponent to play him. Having hard time sometimes hitting since I come from Project M-grounds.

 

[kj22]

Um why is roy so strong?
http://gfycat.com/GrandioseForkedCutworm
Marth can barely do this with rage right?
AND IT WAS STALED
AND IT WAS MEGAMAN

 

[MOI-ARI]

Um why is roy so strong?
http://gfycat.com/GrandioseForkedCutworm
Marth can barely do this with rage right?
AND IT WAS STALED
AND IT WAS MEGAMAN

That grounded wavebounce was most impressive, oh and that early kill

 

[Vipermoon]

So I've mentioned before that Nair has less landing lag. I'm 100% certain that Nair has less landing lag. I'm willing to bet the exact number is 13 frames of landing lag (was 15). I know this because of feel (it feels like the same landing lag of when I Nair with Diddy, and I have always use a lot Nair with both Diddy and Marth, Diddy is 13 frames) and I know this because of Roy's landing lag. Listen to this: in the order of Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair; Roy is at 14, 16, 20, 17, and 29. That is 1 more frame of landing lag than Marth in every aerial except Fair (we have 18), mathematically that gives us 13 frames of Nair landing lag. But I need someone to actually find out. Anyone?

Also landing sour Nair combos into Dash attack at mid percents and combos into Dancing blade at lower percents. The first hit of tipper Nair starts comboing into Utilt before 100% and then well into the 100s and 200s. So there's a kill setup that works a lot better because of reduced Nair landing lag. There may be more.

But yeah I love the new Utilt, kills 17-20% earlier, with the back hit still doing less base knockback. Tipper jab to tipper Utilt starts comboing at about the time that tipper Utilt kills so that's pretty awesome. Marth has true non-custom kill setups.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Too many new toys for the FE characters not Robin to play with. Can't contain myself.

 

[kj22]

Wow so Roy is...wow :/
Just got done playing with him, and I'd say his biggest weakness (compared to Marth) is not being able to chase offstage and not being able to kill in the air.
His ground game more than makes up for it. Fsmash, Upsmash, and super armor grounded up B are all great at sealing stocks and not hard at all compared to...Marth's tipper fsmash, tipper upsmash, and up b. I don't get why they made Roy so strong, logic should tell you it's way easier to hit with the entire middle of a blade and not the tip, so don't make the two sweetspots comparable in knockback/damage that's a slap in the face to Marth, and does lucina have anything that's stronger then Roy's sweetspot anything? Maybe bair, maybe upsmash, maaaaybe dancing blade, and if anything else probably not by much.
He's heavier too, which can be good and bad but makes him amazing at crossups and getting from point A to point B. He can FH fair and crossing landing upair, or my personal favorite FH fair and cross dancing blade, something Marth technically can do only he's floating the whole time so he spends a year and a day doing it and will get punished before he even lands. SH empty hops will BnB due to just how fast Roy falls and his run speed and grab reward. His jab is great vs speedy characters/to stuff moves/keep opponent honest, something Marth desperately needs in CQC situations, another fast button to press besides dtilt (which he kind of got this patch, have yet to use him against someone to see just how much better jab is).

Marth still zones/keeps out way better then Roy can, but Roy definitely has the tools to go in. Having a reliable kill moves feels so so so good. I wish the world was perfect and we could have perfect tipper spacing all the time, but we can't. Having a reliable kill move is so so so good, cannot emphasize that enough. No more being unable to kill the opponent because they're not at the right range. If they're in front of you and not shielding they are D E A D.

If Roy had Marth's shieldbreaker as well that would be insane.

Definitely picking up Roy. Will still use Marth in mu where range is key (don't see myself using Roy vs Mario, I want to keep that little bugger out) or where gimping/offstage game is important (falcon, link, i.e poor recovery people

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Despite what I posted just two days ago I got to try out the DLC characters yesterday. My thoughts:

Roy is AMAZING, maybe even a little too strong with that f smash but aside from that he seems to be a great character who also is pretty balanced IMO.

I didn't really care much about Lucas after hearing about the other 2, but my friend decided to pick him up as a main, so from playing against Lucas I think he is probably going to end up being the best character in the game thanks to his very powerful attacks, low end lag and startup on a lot of his moves, and I swear his down smash is pretty much how his up smash was in Brawl with a stupidly huge disjoint for how the attack actually looks and the kill power is crazy on it.

Ryu is my favorite out of the 3 new characters because he is really unique from other characters in smash and I used to play Street Fighter like 2 years ago even though I sucked at Street Fighter. I love how they made Ryu be able to do so many combos (and they actually take some skill unlike some other characters like Mario, Luigi, and even though I love using him, Captian Falcon). I thought I would have a bit of trouble getting used to doing inputs in smash, but it was pretty easy and I quickly got the hang of the light and medium attack mechanic he has. I also decided to look up a few videos of combos for Ryu and some people have already figured out some crazy combos with Ryu that do not look easy to pull off. MAYBE he could even be top tier when people start to get good with him, because seriously, even the top smash players kinda suck with him from just watching them.

 

[cerealkiller]

Roy is amazing? Shhhhhh! Quiet now, Sakurai may hear you!

Enjoy him until next patch.

That's it, I'm buying Roy

https://gfycat.com/SpitefulPinkCockerspaniel

Just kidding, it's too early but having Marth with lesser range hurts.

 

[Ura]

The day has finally come when we Roy mains have out shined you Marth mains!

Now you will all feel the wrath off t3h ph1r3!!!

 

[kj22]

The day has finally come when we Roy mains have out shined you Marth mains!

Now you will all feel the wrath off t3h ph1r3!!!

lol I'll accept any challenge Marth vs Roy challenge the Roy boards foolishly throw my way

 

[Ura]

lol I'll accept any challenge Marth vs Roy challenge the Roy boards foolishly throw my way

Marth VS Roy wars V2. I love it man.

 

[Locuan]

Marth VS Roy wars V2. I love it man.

Can I play both characters? :3

 

[Ura]

Can I play both characters? :3

By all means! I'm expecting to still use Marth as a secondary though Roy is going to be my main going forward.

Speaking of which, did Marth get any buffs in the latest patch? He's really in need of some buffs.

 

[Locuan]

By all means! I'm expecting to still use Marth as a secondary though Roy is going to be my main going forward.

Speaking of which, did Marth get any buffs in the latest patch? He's really in need of some buffs.

Yes, you can check those and for other characters on the following thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/lucas-roy-ryu-1-0-8-community-patch-notes.406319/

 

[Ura]

I see.

His N-Air and other moves have less ending lag so that's great for Marth & Lucina.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Locuan Oh my lord I thought you were the weirdest person in the world replying to yourself until I realized what you were actually referring to.

Also I would play both Roy and Marth except there isn't anywhere locally for me to get an eShop gift card, so I'll probably be unable to get Roy for a long time. :\

 

[Locuan]

@ Locuan Oh my lord I thought you were the weirdest person in the world replying to yourself until I realized what you were actually referring to.

Eh lol, my mistake... It was funny though

 

[kj22]

Can I play both characters? :3

I'm playing both too, but the Roy mains need to know their place ;P

btw I love Marth's new jab one. did jab, *wait for airdodge into ground* fsmash. too gud

 

[Vipermoon]

Roy's range is actually very bad (forget Fsmash, that move doesn't hit above or below him anyway) but his moveset makes up for it. The way he reverse grips the sword and bends his elbow emphasizes power and less lag with the trade-off being range. But there are some things about Roy that confuse me...

Why does his fully charge neutral B do 50% when Ike's does 35?
Why does his Nair do 14.5% damage when Marth's does 11?
Why does Roy's Dsmash1 do 15% damage yet lags less than Marth's?
Why does Roy's Utilt do 12% while starting on frame 6 and lags less than Marth?
Why does Roy's Dtilt have less end lag than Marth's yet does more damage and has a larger sweetspot?
Why does Roy have one of the strongest Dash Attacks in the game when it starts earlier than Marth's, does more damage, and lags the same?

There are even things about Ike that baffle me this patch...
Why does Ike now have less Fair landing lag than Marth's Fair even though he is WAY heavier?
Why does Ike have much much less Dair landing lag than Marth?
There are more like this.

Marth got buffed but Roy and Ike have more things going for them and it makes no sense. Why couldn't they give us more damage with Nair, Dsmash, and Utilt? It doesn't have to be Roy damage but a percent here and there is great. I mean they literally gave us extreme knockback on Utilt (thank you, still weaker than Roy's) without increasing damage....why? Marth overall got a damage nerf with Jab 1.

Roy does too much damage for Smash 4. His damage output in Melee was garbage, 100% garbage. He is literally the only character in Smash 4 that does more damage than previous games.

 

[cerealkiller]

My guess? They want to make the character the most appealing to make people want to play him and be willing to pay for the character. In the next 2 patches they will nerf him bad and he'll return to normal.

 

[AetherStorm]

Wait... Is Roy actually better than Marth? I keep seeing people Roygasming all over the place about how he's high tier and stuff. That has to just be hype because he's back, right? I could be totally wrong and/or biased, but here's what I posted on Reddit. (And it's still getting downvotes.)

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Roy has less range, an extremely close sweetspot, and generally the same lag on his moves. Basically, everything is unsafe. There are also a few other things. Roy's sideB doesn't stop him in midair, so you can't sideB1 into an aerial, which is an amazing tool for Marth. Roy's range and fastfalling makes it much harder for him to get followups, and despite what people are saying, his throws aren't that great at all. Save for his Dthrow, (which can easily be DI'd) all of his throws send people nowhere, but slightly too far to get followups.

 

[Foodies]

His throws do have true followups at certain %s. Still, Roy's disadvantage is worse than Marth which is what balances him (the range thing too). My summary is just they are better/worse at different things, and people should choose who to play based on their playstyle or the MU. I know I'm going to stick with Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It should be very clear Sakurai is VERY afraid of what Marth could become. He is being VERY careful with his buffs.

That said match-up wise I think they have basically the same ratios. It comes down to who you like more.

Though Marth vs Roy is Marths advantage 6/4 imo.

 

[kj22]

His throws do have true followups at certain %s. Still, Roy's disadvantage is worse than Marth which is what balances him (the range thing too). My summary is just they are better/worse at different things, and people should choose who to play based on their playstyle or the MU. I know I'm going to stick with Marth.

foodies we should play sometime soon.
add the gatorman.
and I'm guessing you mean a zoning playstyle?

It should be very clear Sakurai is VERY afraid of what Marth could become. He is being VERY careful with his buffs.

That said match-up wise I think they have basically the same ratios. It comes down to who you like more.

Though Marth vs Roy is Marths advantage 6/4 imo.

Roy having strong reliable killing options and not being able to chase offstage should change mu ratios a bit.

 

[Vipermoon]

Roy has less lag on most of his moves. Especially jab and tilts. For some reason his double edged dance does 1% less damage than Marth on every hit across the board despite being otherwise exactly the same. Roy has a pretty good grab game but there is a major problem. Unlike Marth, Roy's dthrow sends them in front. Knowing Roy also has Fthrow follow-ups, that means there is one way to DI Roy's throws. Forward. As people get used to fighting Roy they will realize this. And Roy's grab game will get worse in the long run. His Uthrow for some reason is weaker than Marth's too despite doing 2% more damage and his Bthrow sends them at a stupid angle while Marth's Bthrow does a great job of sending opponents off-stage.

It's hard to tell how Roy will do. His combos are amazing because all of his aerials have less end lag so he can string them together plus his landing Nair sends opponents diagonal in the air so it's a great combo starter. This character is swimming in kill moves. Kill throw, kill counter, kill Up B, kill tilts, kill smashes, all easy to sweetspot. Combine this with his superior ground and air speed and better frame data and this character can get in. Marth is more controlling and I think over his entire moveset technically does more knockback (definitely not damage) plus serverly outranging Roy.

With all that said I think Roy has slightly better potential. His fall speed and quick jumps help immensely too, forgot to mention that. Marth is at least mid tier now with that utilt, nair, and jab though.

 

[Quickhero]

Marth has been mid tier (imo high mid tier) for quite a while, idk what these buffs will do other than make him a better character.

Roy and Marth are quite different, and let me just say that, even though I've only faced a few Roys, Marth definitely has a better aerial and off stage game overall than Roy, since he has a much better time recovering and Marth's spaced tipper aerials are beast in terms of providing a good distance between you and the opponent, Roy doesn't really have this as well as Marth.

 

[Vipermoon]

It should be very clear Sakurai is VERY afraid of what Marth could become. He is being VERY careful with his buffs.

That said match-up wise I think they have basically the same ratios. It comes down to who you like more.

Though Marth vs Roy is Marths advantage 6/4 imo.

I agree that Marth wins the match-up.

 

[Ura]

Roy IMO has the advantage but it's not like the massive gap that Marth had over Roy in Melee.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Disagree. Roy has to take huge risks, which is his playstyle but its exacerbated vs Marth because he is outranged and Marth can challenge him. Marth also has counter to keep Roy honest and easily punishes basically everything Roy does on block besides D-tilt. Roys reward is awesome though so when he gets a hit he can convert quite nicely.

 

[Quickhero]

Disagree. Roy has to take huge risks, which is his playstyle but its exacerbated vs Marth because he is outranged and Marth can challenge him. Marth also has counter to keep Roy honest and easily punishes basically everything Roy does on block besides D-tilt. Roys reward is awesome though so when he gets a hit he can convert quite nicely.

Speaking of counter, I (Marth) was able to pull off a counter against Roy's third hit of DB one time during For Glory, was it just lag? Or are you guys actually able to just counter to beat Roy's DB past the second hit?