Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Emblem Lord]

Look at the combo counter in training mode for Roys DED. They don't like properly half the time.

 

[Locuan]

Hm, so I have been having issues with the following:

1. Reaction Time
2. Maintaining Stage Control (I usually give it up)
3. Ledge Game (In reference to my own recovery)
4. Identifying Trap Scenarios from my opponents or creating them myself. (Traps)

So while yes, I have been struggling a lot with this and it's keeping me stuck on the same skill level, I think others might have the same issues I have. I was also thinking it would be great if someone who is knowledgeable on these topics create threads or guides so that others could benefit from. Focused on Marth but that can be applied generally to any character. I know that issue #4 is covered in Novaseers Trap Guide on the spectrum of creating these on our own end so I'm going to have to re-read the topic and learn once more.

 

[gByron]

Lets not forget roy s garbage recovery and worse edgeguard when comparing him to marth :/ Marth still holds his own with sweetspots on the tips but I would kill for that throws

 

[Gamegenie222]

Leave this here.

 

[Ura]

Recovery is less of a factor in the game though with edge hogging out. Even with that, his Blazer gives him good horizontal recovery.

Unless you happen to be playing as , it shouldn't be a huge issue.

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

Honestly though Roy seems to be one of the most easily gimped opponents in the game. Then again I have yet to face a competent tournament ready Roy so take this as you would getting hit by the tip of Roy's blade in sm4sh.

 

[Shaya]

Moves I'm happy my usages will be better:
Jab the IASA buff last patch made me use it with safety well spaced, it was a good tool at shield trapping in non-reactable situations, now it's good on hit! Fair out of it seems like a near -always- guaranteed thing really, but if people want to not respect this free damage by air dodging, they'll die. Make sure you're testing and conditioning players with this in every tournament set.

Dolphin Slash fast, good damage, out of dash or the air moves are good, especially with invincibility involved. Have been getting kills around the ledge with it in and around 100% since last patch, now with more kill power... whoosh. I've been getting better at up-bs out of shield with ZSS (and obviously those skills overlap, god I love the character choice I went with) and Marth is in the same boat now (it's a lot harder in this game than in brawl because you can only buff one action at once and Jump takes priority; I've been getting used to using this input mess up as an option selecty thing too).
Crescent Slash? More like Crescent Trash confirmed. I think it has a niche on grab release characters perhaps, but I think the utility/mechanical differences overly justified Dolphin Slash most of the time, and now it killing better? Well.. inb4 CS was buffed kill power too, but yeah. Iai counter seems to be the only custom choice right now you'd consistently take (if your reaction speed/play style wants it).

Up Tilt... have already been doing backwards up tilts for a while, and they were comboing into bairs and upairs back then. A few extra frames off, maybe it's no longer punishable on hit at low percent anymore (or at least for not that long). CROUCHING INTO UP TILT IS REALLY GOOD (nothing special/new, just thought I'd mention it). Not sure I care much for the kill power difference, which also probably means it's been adjusted to higher base so it isn't punishable at low percent too, but hey, we'll take it. Up Tilt into fsmash tipper though... I feel like this will be even more stupid/deadly a trap :D

Neutral Air... People who know me from Brawl know how much I love this move. I invented a metagame for it that was better than most character's entire toolsets. But I've generally neglected its use completely this game because of its laggyness, low reward/damage and overall poor safety. In recent times I have been full hop nairing more, and also looking to use it for punishing regular get ups at the ledge. I'm really looking forward to it hopefully being a move better in neutral again, I'm ready to show the world how disgustingly good I am at spacing. An old trap from Brawl was tipper neutral air on shield into Forward Smash tipper (I wouldn't call it that good, but it was actually meta relevant for like a YEAR lol) on their shield drop punish is probably something to look for again and learn the spacing for. I hope it can handle shields (I haven't really been too keen to play smash since my tournament last sunday I won, so among the patch drop and dealing with that Ive been content with theory crafting).

 

[kj22]

Moves I'm happy my usages will be better:
Jab the IASA buff last patch made me use it with safety well spaced, it was a good tool at shield trapping in non-reactable situations, now it's good on hit! Fair out of it seems like a near -always- guaranteed thing really, but if people want to not respect this free damage by air dodging, they'll die. Make sure you're testing and conditioning players with this in every tournament set.

Dolphin Slash fast, good damage, out of dash or the air moves are good, especially with invincibility involved. Have been getting kills around the ledge with it in and around 100% since last patch, now with more kill power... whoosh. I've been getting better at up-bs out of shield with ZSS (and obviously those skills overlap, god I love the character choice I went with) and Marth is in the same boat now (it's a lot harder in this game than in brawl because you can only buff one action at once and Jump takes priority; I've been getting used to using this input mess up as an option selecty thing too).
Crescent Slash? More like Crescent Trash confirmed. I think it has a niche on grab release characters perhaps, but I think the utility/mechanical differences overly justified Dolphin Slash most of the time, and now it killing better? Well.. inb4 CS was buffed kill power too, but yeah. Iai counter seems to be the only custom choice right now you'd consistently take (if your reaction speed/play style wants it).

Up Tilt... have already been doing backwards up tilts for a while, and they were comboing into bairs and upairs back then. A few extra frames off, maybe it's no longer punishable on hit at low percent anymore (or at least for not that long). CROUCHING INTO UP TILT IS REALLY GOOD (nothing special/new, just thought I'd mention it). Not sure I care much for the kill power difference, which also probably means it's been adjusted to higher base so it isn't punishable at low percent too, but hey, we'll take it. Up Tilt into fsmash tipper though... I feel like this will be even more stupid/deadly a trap :D

Neutral Air... People who know me from Brawl know how much I love this move. I invented a metagame for it that was better than most character's entire toolsets. But I've generally neglected its use completely this game because of its laggyness, low reward/damage and overall poor safety. In recent times I have been full hop nairing more, and also looking to use it for punishing regular get ups at the ledge. I'm really looking forward to it hopefully being a move better in neutral again, I'm ready to show the world how disgustingly good I am at spacing. An old trap from Brawl was tipper neutral air on shield into Forward Smash tipper (I wouldn't call it that good, but it was actually meta relevant for like a YEAR lol) on their shield drop punish is probably something to look for again and learn the spacing for. I hope it can handle shields (I haven't really been too keen to play smash since my tournament last sunday I won, so among the patch drop and dealing with that Ive been content with theory crafting).

Jab is great, x100 the conditioning with it. It's like hitting with Nair1.

Upb got more kill power?

Crouching to avoid moves then up tilting is what you're saying?

Foodies and I played a bunch of sets yesterday and the day before, she was using Nair beautifully to ledgetrap. The less end lag frames means another threat Marth can throw out as he's descending, so he has to be respected on the way up AND the way down now.

I killed someone with tipper up tilt while they were on the sv platform and went "...o.o"guess that kills now lmao. Need to see if the initial and end hit box frames kill as well and not just the middle.

Marth is becoming better and better each patch. Now if only shield breaker came out faster ;p

 

[Novaseer]

Hm, so I have been having issues with the following:

1. Reaction Time
2. Maintaining Stage Control (I usually give it up)
3. Ledge Game (In reference to my own recovery)
4. Identifying Trap Scenarios from my opponents or creating them myself. (Traps)

So while yes, I have been struggling a lot with this and it's keeping me stuck on the same skill level, I think others might have the same issues I have. I was also thinking it would be great if someone who is knowledgeable on these topics create threads or guides so that others could benefit from. Focused on Marth but that can be applied generally to any character. I know that issue #4 is covered in Novaseers Trap Guide on the spectrum of creating these on our own end so I'm going to have to re-read the topic and learn once more.

There's a perfect guide on improving reaction time that I recommend any fighting game player to read. Here's the link.

Maintaining stage control is a tricky subject, especially for Marth, as his ideal spacing requires him to move back and forth. It overlaps with topics of spacing, zoning, footsies. I think the most important thing is to realize the burst options of your own character vs the opponent's. It's important to find that sweetspot where you're close enough to effectively use your own tools, but far enough to react against the opponent's options. I feel like I'm oversimplifying this. I'll see if I can write something.

 

[Shaya]

Mildly annoyed by up tilt now. Base knock back increase... almost feels like a nerf to me. I don't care about it killing earlier or having less cooldown. If I have to double jump for non-guaranteed follow ups from 10-15% onwards, SADNESS. Although I'm pretty certain this isn't punishable on hit anymore, I guess I need to reallocate how I think/use this move.

Neutral Air... maybe looking good. Timing it for pressure on grounded opponents is pretty balls (just out of practice though). But there's noticeably more confidence in its use with fast falling.

Dolphin Slash though with some rage?
INCREDIBLE. AMAZING. DOPE.
UNBELIEVABLE.
Probably the best buff he got this patch. If you haven't started to learn to use Dolphin Slash aggressively, now is the time.
A frame 5 move you can do out of a dash that kills. This is the business right here.
For all my Brawl-era friends: DOLPHIN SCOOPING AND LOOPING

Jab traded shield safety for better on-hit rewards. However the second jab is there for the shield safety stuff. Need more time to get used to this properly.

 

[CURRY]

x.x
I haven't had time to stalk this thread because I've been traveling around in the UK with a tour group and stuff.
I also don't really post in this thread because you all sound so smart and I'm intimidated.
But holy crap, late reactions: watching and reading about the Marth buffs was like opening a Christmas present. I'm not home yet and still won't be for a while, but I'm HYPE. And Roy looks ridiculous.
asdfasdf Shaya that Homura is adorable

 

[Vipermoon]

Only the back hit of Utilt doesn't put them in tumble so yeah finally safe on hit. But Shaya an Utilt that kills 20% earlier and actually has a couple of true combos now definitely isn't something I'd complain about.

I like Nair but still have no idea why Roy's does 14.5%

DS still has no range so it is less safe than it should be and tough to get OoS from pushback. Being stronger than Fair but weaker than Nair (tippers) it really isn't that strong lol. But yes I know it kills at 90 from the ledge thanks to base knockback so yes I agree that it is useful.

Jab looks good, still wish it ended on 26 again (would blow up the combos) and that Utilt's animation matched hitboxes. A lot of the time I find that tipper Jab 1 which sends them straight up often has you barely missing the Utilt. Even though the sword goes right through their face. It was always like this in Smash 4 and Brawl and it's annoying that nothing was done about it. Jab 2 will miss a lot for the same reason.

 

[Shaya]

tough to get OoS from pushback.

Essentially: what part of a frame 5 (or 6 due to JC) invincible, transcended, killing dash attack isn't amazing?

 

[Quickhero]

Jab looks good, still wish it ended on 26 again (would blow up the combos) and that Utilt's animation matched hitboxes. A lot of the time I find that tipper Jab 1 which sends them straight up often has you barely missing the Utilt. Even though the sword goes right through their face. It was always like this in Smash 4 and Brawl and it's annoying that nothing was done about it. Jab 2 will miss a lot for the same reason.

Don't be underestimating them jab frames yo, jab on edge is the bees ness.

Also I've been able to get jab to f-tilt quite a bit which works quite well, but honestly pulling off u-air/u-tilt to jab - DB is an amazing combination and it's insanely strong and practical.

 

[Gamegenie222]

uair/up tilt to jab- DB sounds juicy. is it better on fast fallers or what and what percents?

 

[Quickhero]

uair/up tilt to jab- DB sounds juicy. is it better on fast fallers or what and what percents?

I'm not completely sure as to the exact percentages, but it does indeed work better off of fast fallers like Fox. My estimate for exact percentages is around 0% - around mid 40% for your average sized character. Jab to DB is still a good thing to use too however and that works on until at least 90% oml.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Nice to know need to mess around with that and practice with it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ignoring the part about putting you in free fall my only problem with it is that it represents the worst sword range of all of Marth's moves. @ Shaya

@ Quickhero jab works at any percent. Whether it's 0 or 300

 

[Quickhero]

Here's a match that shows how good the buffs help Marth, since me and my opponent utilize them all!

Advice for dancing teachers everywhere, don't make your students do the same dance every few seconds; it gets kind of stale.

 

[Peahnuts]

I'm by no means a Marth main but I do enjoy playing him. The 1.0.8 changes have also been great, decided to make a little non-serious video since the update

 

[Shaya]

Ignoring the part about putting you in free fall my only problem with it is that it represents the worst sword range of all of Marth's moves. @ Shaya

As a reactive tool it has it all.
While it falls short horizontally (although I think it's natural angling does help it go a lot more horizontally than we're used to from a standing still position) it reaches vertically pretty well and I repeat: invincibility. Momentum from a dash is maintained during a jump too.

Anyway... it was a move that during the entirety of my Brawl history I never really dared to use as I'm trying to promote here. Triple Jump/RCO was too risky, if you traded with a move, you'd die, while trading with a move now (a lot easier than you think) is generally going to be working out a lot better for you, 11% and kills and you trade with someone's jab or ftilt and you dash after them with massive frame advantage. So I can completely understand the hesitation from newer players who aren't primed to play reactively and can't get over the idea of "what if I whiff/free fall"; use it in ways that don't whiff or miss. Use it at times where you won't die for doing so, no one can land against a dashing forward marth who's ready to up-b and you need to force your opponents to respect this.

It's ability as a punish tool out of dash is unparalleled in our moveset and essentially within the cast as well.
It's ability as an aerial, with full start up invincibility with the sour hits being extremely advantageous for us on-hit otherwise... I wonder how many times Sheik is going to try to fair from above us in air vs air situations before she gets the idea?

It's not like I haven't been saying this for a while now, I've been promoting DS usage since early WiiU. Reward goes up, I'm highlighting it again. You don't use it? Your loss, you aren't using Marth to his full potential.

 

[Emblem Lord]

People jump at you or disrespect your space, you Dolphin Slash.

Marths favorite game is Street Fighter 2

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm not saying I don't use it. But taking the full advantage of it definitely isn't something I've done yet.

But with it's newfound kill potenial I believe I need to use it more. Thank you for the explanation, Shaya, you gave me more faith in DS. Picturing all the close-ranged and punish situations in my head at the moment I can see there is a lot more potential for it in my Marth.

Maybe it's just me having to get used to it, but I measured this thing and it doesn't reach that much more than grab. With that said, I'll pay more attention to the up special as I play from now on.

Edit: I kill the most with it while edgeguarding, for that is invaluable. I literally go off-stage and press up B (sometimes use Fair to initiate an air dodge then get the up B)

 

[Quickhero]

HOLY CRAP PEOPLE. THIS IS INSANE.

WHAT THE HELL THIS IS SO AMAZING.

 

[kj22]

Don't be underestimating them jab frames yo, jab on edge is the bees ness.

Also I've been able to get jab to f-tilt quite a bit which works quite well, but honestly pulling off u-air/u-tilt to jab - DB is an amazing combination and it's insanely strong and practical.

I'm honored to have my video be linked ;D

...even if I played terrible game 3 ;/

 

[Vipermoon]

HOLY CRAP PEOPLE. THIS IS INSANE.

WHAT THE HELL THIS IS SO AMAZING.

Well we already established jab to fsmash so nothing surprising here

 

[Quickhero]

Well we already established jab to fsmash so nothing surprising here

Yeah...but nobody talked about the fact that Marth can convert a grab into a kill; that's kind of...a big deal that either nobody knew about or nobody talked about.

 

[Akira213]

Yeah...but nobody talked about the fact that Marth can convert a grab into a kill; that's kind of...a big deal that either nobody knew about or nobody talked about.

Is the grab release into jab guaranteed or can it be avoided?

 

[Vipermoon]

No of course not. They can shield the jab.

 

[Akira213]

No of course not. They can shield the jab.

Well that's a fair bit less exciting than. Might be able to surprise someone once in awhile though, especially since Marth is a match up most people aren't familiar with in Smash 4. One of the benefits of a character not being very strong in a meta.

 

[Vipermoon]

Well that's a fair bit less exciting than. Might be able to surprise someone once in awhile though, especially since Marth is a match up most people aren't familiar with in Smash 4. One of the benefits of a character not being very strong in a meta.

Yeah grab release to automatically-spaced tipper jab is still a great option to try. Jab will combo into Utilt, as long as the Utilt it reaches (sometimes doesn't, so there's a good way to kill. It won't be comboing into Fsmash though (especially since 1.0.8 jab's are laggier). Maybe at 200% lol.

 

[kj22]

So...how to fight a patient little Mac ;/ Just fought Alphicans on Anther's and it didn't go well :T

 

[Admiral_Dante]

So...how to fight a patient little Mac ;/ Just fought Alphicans on Anther's and it didn't go well :T

A patient little mac? That sounds scary. I hope you calmed down and got them to approach you. Otherwise, you'd probably get rekt.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

No of course not. They can shield the jab.

True, but a grab release is a pretty uncommon thing to happen in this game, so a lot off guard. Even one of my friends who has the quickest reaction time can get caught by this if I don't use it too much.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is such a bull **** character, holy ****.

Don't know whether to be worried or happy.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Both Shaya both. Just let the Hero King chill for the time being then strike later.

 

[Quickhero]

Marth is such a bull **** character, holy ****.

Don't know whether to be worried or happy.

Let's just pray Sakurai doesn't nerf Marth really hard next patch. God damn patches are so scary especially since they happen so damn soon.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth, unfortunately, has to rely on jank to get earliy kills. Tipper shield breaker and Fsmash have too much knockback. Jab 1 is the perfect jank starter. He can also breaks shields. He has a really strong counter. Then there's Crescent Slash jank. Just overall jank that wasn't really what Marth was about in previous games.

In previous games Marth was simply superior. Here, he isn't that good of a character but he has that jank that simply can't make-up for what Marth used to be and instead only transforms him into a light-weight power character that excels in casual free-for-alls.

I don't know how much of this people can agree with but this is how I feel. I love the character but you wouldn't win touraments with him because he kind of relies on luck.

But @ Quickhero why would you believe he'd be nerfed? That makes no sense. It's not like Marth buffed himself without Sakurai knowing.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Vipermoon If jab/DB wasn't a safe move and if he didn't have a great off-stage game with a solid n-air and b-air, I would agree. Fortunately, he has all the tools he needs to survive in the neutral, have good kill-options, and can very well pull an advantage without the need of "jank."

No offense, but you may need to practice a lot more with Marth, or rather, differently. I think you just don't understand how Marth fully works, which is understandable due to all the changes, and you need to re-evaluate your Marth and improve from there. I have a lot to improve with Marth as well if I want to become tournament viable as well, so don't think about this negatively!

Oh yeah, answering your second part. It's because of the fear that if Marth does really well for a few months Sakurai is going to start regretting making Marth a great character and just nerf his options because he's very successful for a few months.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

Marth is stupid now. With DS now back to what it was in Brawl pretty much he is now a char most chars simply cannot attack or win footsies against.

He loses to Sheik, ZSS, and Link. That's it imo.

If you lose to anyone else it's not the match. It's you.

@ Vipermoon please join us in the current metagame instead of day one where Marth had been nerfed into oblivion. Thanks.