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Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

A_Kae

Smash Ace
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I posted this in the Character Competitive Impressions thread a few minutes ago. If someone could check my work, (mainly just the frame timings) I'd appreciate it a lot.

The post is here, quoted below: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-821#post-19579301

So I'll just put some numbers to what Shaya said.

Nair hits on frames 6 and 7, and has 12 frames of landing lag. We don't care about total frames here, since we'll be landing well before that. Let's assuming the hit happens on F6, and landing happens on F7. That means that an action can occur on frame 20. So, we need 13 frames of hitstun to be able to act before the opponent, plus however long it takes for the next attack to hit. F-Tilt hits on F8, F-smash hits on F11, U-Tilt hits on F6. Those are the frames that the moves will actually be hitting on. not necessarily when they start. So f-tilt needs 21 frames, f-smash 24, u-tilt 19. Let me know if anything here is wrong, because counting frames is hard and I might be off by a bit. Also because I changed some of the data for when stuff is happening, I might have missed changing something. I'd be surprised if this isn't all off by a bit.

Here it is anyways.

Knockback Data:
Marth Tip: 3%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.
Marth Non-Tip: 2%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.
Lucina: 2.375%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.

Hitstun Data vs Marth (90 weight)
Marth Tip 50%: 19
Marth Tip 100%: 23
Marth Tip 150%: 26
Marth Non-Tip 50%: 18
Marth Non-Tip 100%: 21
Marth Non-Tip 150%: 24
Lucina 50%: 18
Lucina 100%: 22
Lucina 150%: 25

Remember Stutter Step for spacing f-smashes. And that goes for everyone with every character.
 
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CommanderRin

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Tipper F-Smash or Waifu Bros.... Ugh, I hate that I have such an attachment to the stoopid Emblem Princess.

DS killing is my new favorite thing after N-air.

Jab is kinda too good now I think and I want them to give us old D-air and then I'm happy forever.
 

Zano

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Use marth because he's prettier.


SHAYA, I finally remembered the name of the one good thing you ever gave me


str8 to my musica list
 

CommanderRin

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Use marth because he's prettier.


SHAYA, I finally remembered the name of the one good thing you ever gave me


str8 to my musica list
But I'm into glamorous masquerades, definitely better than girly tiara boi
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
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Messages
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Use marth because he's prettier.


SHAYA, I finally remembered the name of the one good thing you ever gave me


str8 to my musica list
Is that from the movie? That track is fantastic.
 

CURRY

Smash Journeyman
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YouTube comment said that the track has nothing to do with PMMM, and that it was just a track used in a popular fanmade trailer by Chikaboom.
Just searched it, it's... a pretty nice trailer for the series, holy crap. It apparently has been taken down from YouTube many times, lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzlHZTfGeI&ab_channel=Camposkpo

Also, Palutena > Lucina.
Marth > Palu tho.
 
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EnGarde

Smash Ace
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The Marth and Lucina Skype chat communities cordially invite Marth mains from here to join us for our upcoming online tournament on Sunday.

http://challonge.com/swordsdance

Please read the rules linked on the challonge page (eligible fighters for this week will be all sword wielders), and be in the IRC chat room linked on the challonge during the tournament, where you will communicate with your opponents and with me, the TO. Don't forget to sign up and check in on the challonge, or you won't be able to compete.

Slayr was kind enough to upload winners, losers, and grand finals from our last tournament (which was Fire Emblem characters only), so if you'd like to watch, the links are below. :) Spoilers: Lucina won.

challonge - http://challonge.com/fireemblem1
winner's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVGBhr_v9sI
loser's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtYOYb6cgzI
grand's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXzjf-3xrbM
 

kj22

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The Marth and Lucina Skype chat communities cordially invite Marth mains from here to join us for our upcoming online tournament on Sunday.

http://challonge.com/swordsdance

Please read the rules linked on the challonge page (eligible fighters for this week will be all sword wielders), and be in the IRC chat room linked on the challonge during the tournament, where you will communicate with your opponents and with me, the TO. Don't forget to sign up and check in on the challonge, or you won't be able to compete.

Slayr was kind enough to upload winners, losers, and grand finals from our last tournament (which was Fire Emblem characters only), so if you'd like to watch, the links are below. :) Spoilers: Lucina won.

challonge - http://challonge.com/fireemblem1
winner's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVGBhr_v9sI
loser's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtYOYb6cgzI
grand's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXzjf-3xrbM
this'll be good
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
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Signed up. I'll probably use 1121 or maybe 1123. Depending on feelings/matchups it's possible I'll switch to 3xxx or xx1x.
 

EnGarde

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Signed up. I'll probably use 1121 or maybe 1123. Depending on feelings/matchups it's possible I'll switch to 3xxx or xx1x.
Sounds good. All customs (and custom combinations) are legal, so good luck. :) Just curious, though, I thought the dancing blade customs were terrible?
 

Vipermoon

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Sounds good. All customs (and custom combinations) are legal, so good luck. :) Just curious, though, I thought the dancing blade customs were terrible?
I'd always stick to dancing blade. Nothing I said up there depicted otherwise. Side B is the second slot in the "xxxx".

But yeah back in the original release when Dancing Blade didn't work, in my opinion, it was possible to develop Heavy Blade into something similarly good (but not better). DB is no doubt the go to for side B now though. Easy Blade is among the worst customs in the gamel along with Storm Thrust and Easy Counter.
 
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A_Kae

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I'd love to join, but I'm going to be busy when the tournament starts.

Also, is there ever reason to use Easy Blade or Easy Counter? I legitimately can't think of one. Storm Thrust might have some really specific edgeguarding uses when paired with Dolphin Jump, but I'm not sure that the other 2 have any use at all.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
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So I've been rather interested about using Marth in a more serious setting. I have been using him more and more and he definitely fits my playstyle. I also just find him very fun. I love his "graceful" aggression. I've been told by many that my Marth is impressive for someone who doesn't know the inns and outs with the character. I do believe my intuition with him is pretty solid.

I just have no idea how "viable" it is to secondary this character. I guess I should ask about how you guys think Marth does in the following MUs (don't have to give me a giant write up, just want like a ratio/brief explanation should you be so kind): :4yoshi::4zss:. I'm lucky enough to have Ally here in the summer so he can show me more Marth tech so I think it could go somewhere. Just curious where you guys think the Marth metagame is going and those MUs I asked about. Thanks!
 
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A_Kae

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So I've been rather interested about using Marth in a more serious setting. I have been using him more and more and he definitely fits my playstyle. I also just find him very fun. I love his "graceful" aggression. I've been told by many that my Marth is impressive for someone who doesn't know the inns and outs with the character. I do believe my intuition with him is pretty solid.

I just have no idea how "viable" it is to secondary this character. I guess I should ask about how you guys think Marth does in the following MUs (don't have to give me a giant write up, just want like a ratio/brief explanation should you be so kind): :4yoshi::4zss:. I'm lucky enough to have Ally here in the summer so he can show me more Marth tech so I think it could go somewhere. Just curious where you guys think the Marth metagame is going and those MUs I asked about. Thanks!
Yoshi isn't too bad in my experience. I don't know enough to give a detailed explanation though.

ZSS is Marth's worst matchup. She can escape all of his traps, or turn them back on him. The tether grab makes for an easy punish if Marth hits a shield or misses, and with her absurd grab reward, it's going to be a ton of damage or even a stock loss if you get grabbed.

Marth is outranged, outsped, and just generally outperformed when it comes to ZSS. Without some kind of skill gap going on, ZSS should win every time. I just don't see how Marth can fight her well at all.

@ Shaya Shaya or @Emblem Lord know a lot more about Marth than I do, so maybe they have different opinions about this.

If you're learning Marth, I recommend you check out this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/read-me-marths-competitive-resource-thread.382874/
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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Oh cool, I'll give it a read and see what happens. Maybe :4marth: might be what I need. Who knows? I like to experiment. And tipper F-Smash people. So very much.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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Yoshi is pretty okay. If you can react well you've got it covered. Dancing blade beats everything. Walk and ftilt good for eggs.
Space properly and most things are safe on shield.

Deal with Forward air like a super Peach's Fair in Brawl (nair, counter or like bair from below and far in front)
 
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ZTD | TECHnology

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Yoshi is pretty okay. If you can react well you've got it covered. Dancing blade beats everything. Walk and ftilt good for eggs.
Space properly and most things are safe on shield.

Deal with Forward air like a super Peach's Fair in Brawl.
Thanks Shaya. Do you think ZSS is as bad as previously suggested?
 

Shaya

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It's a pretty bad match up. I think if Brawl level lameness was implemented he'd have no chance.

You can punish most non-campy ZSS pretty hard and reliably if you're spacing well and know what they're up to. But shielding/always secondary action zamus is an absolute laborious chore.

Oh and she easily confirms into killing you too.
 
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Langston777

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@ Shaya Shaya
how do you approach a flying egg tossing b-reversing yoshi

no matter how i try to challenge the b-reverse egglay, i get beaten out everytime. i can't seem to punish it either. very annoying.
 

kj22

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@ Shaya Shaya
how do you approach a flying egg tossing b-reversing yoshi

no matter how i try to challenge the b-reverse egglay, i get beaten out everytime. i can't seem to punish it either. very annoying.
spotdodge/attack early/sh dair

Yoshi is pretty okay. If you can react well you've got it covered. Dancing blade beats everything. Walk and ftilt good for eggs.
Space properly and most things are safe on shield.

Deal with Forward air like a super Peach's Fair in Brawl (nair, counter or like bair from below and far in front)
I always like your advice shaya, wish I could hear more of it x;

I still don't think zss is that bad, I still hold that sheik is much much much worse. With ZSS you can at least hold shield and abuse her "poor grab", with sheik you're not even safe in shield because of her short hop aerial/grab mix up. You don't want sheik close and you don't want her far because needles, so lame
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
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I'm liking this new Marth. Seriously considering picking him upp as a co-main. But I worry about damagin my Brawl Marth gameplay.
 

SuperTorn

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Hey guys, I never posted here before but I just wanted to post I finished my first FE game which was Shadow Dragon on the DS. If you guys finished this game, how was the ending for you guys? I missed the stupid Starsphere so fgt Gotoh couldn't make Starlight + not able to get the Falchion from Gharnef on Chapter 23, to make things worse like 5-6 of my units died on the last chapter, them being Jaegen, Wrys, Elice, Hardin, Laurenz and Minerva (Minerva being my favorite unit :( ) so I really feel like restarting Shadow Dragon, or atleast restart the chapter. What do you guys think?

Forgot to add, I only beat the last boss because of a critical hit with Mercurius w/ Marth lmao
 
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kj22

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I think I'm gonna give :4marth: a go today at the weekly event we have and see how it goes. @ Vipermoon Vipermoon maybe I'll see ya there!
Good luck

Don't forget uncharged tippered shieldbreaker kills x:

And Jab 1 is sex

And so is upsmash

And up OoS kills by the ledge

And upair and Nair are great to land with

And above all else...

Give great tips to all, make sure they get the point
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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I usually end up on stream so I'll try to align it that way so that I can upload for critique. Curious to see if my natural instinct with the character is leading me in the correct direction.
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
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Yeah you'll see me there tonight. You should definitely use some Marth if you go up against someone you know you can beat. Especially on stream. People like that lol.

Still can't believe I let you time me out in that 3 v 3 squads we played last week. I literally forgot about the time. I probably had the most confused look on my face when I heard the countdown.

Did you play Marth in other games?
 
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ZTD | TECHnology

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Yeah you definitely had that "Wait what's going on?" face going on rofl. My entire plan was not to win the 3 v 1 directly but to time out. I was surprised I even got to bring it to a 1 v 1 haha.

And I have always dabbled around with Marth since Melee. Never played him seriously but always enjoyed him and liked his flow. Even in this game. This just happens to be the first time I've actually intrigued enough to consider using him seriously.
 

Vipermoon

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Yeah lmao it was 3 v 1, my teammates had high percent and as soon as I said "don't die" you took care of them in seconds.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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My ability to strike when the time is right has always been one of my strengths as a player. I saw fear and apprehensiveness in their movements and pounced on it. :yeahboi:

And I'll see ya tonight. I'll cheer ya on!
 
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Quickhero

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Hey guys, I'm sorry, but I've switched my main from Marth to Ike. I still love Marth and I will play him (and Sheik) as a secondary and practice with him quite a bit, but I really need a character that I can actually learn from in offline matches and I actually have someone who can help me improve Ike offline so I am focusing on him. I really want to win tournaments man, and playing as Ike really seems like the best way for me to do so. Also Ike is freaking cool and I love Radiant Dawn so much.

Can't underestimate the power of having someone who can teach you a character offline and can have some good dittos with you, even though I played with him mostly when it was 1.06 I've still been able to transition all of that Ike gameplay almost seamlessly and it's amazing to see how my Ike is better than both my Marth and my Sheik.
 
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kj22

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Hey guys, I'm sorry, but I've switched my main from Marth to Ike. I still love Marth and I will play him (and Sheik) as a secondary and practice with him quite a bit, but I really need a character that I can actually learn from in offline matches and I actually have someone who can help me improve Ike offline so I am focusing on him. I really want to win tournaments man, and playing as Ike really seems like the best way for me to do so. Also Ike is freaking cool and I love Radiant Dawn so much.

Can't underestimate the power of having someone who can teach you a character offline and can have some good dittos with you, even though I played with him mostly when it was 1.06 I've still been able to transition all of that Ike gameplay almost seamlessly and it's amazing to see how my Ike is better than both my Marth and my Sheik.
Don't be sorry, you do you (: do whatever you feel is necessary to achieve whatever smash goals you may have.
 

Admiral_Dante

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I'm sure you'll still dabble with Marth here and there and stay up to date with any findings. But yeah, I can't really blame anyone for sitting Marth on the bench in this game.
 

Quickhero

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I'm sure you'll still dabble with Marth here and there and stay up to date with any findings. But yeah, I can't really blame anyone for sitting Marth on the bench in this game.
Honestly, I think Marth is near Ike's level, (high upper mid/low high tier) but Marth (and Sheik) is a difficult character to use, and you'll need a lot of knowledge to do well; Ike is the same, but if you have some irl source (rarely online) for you to improve really speeds up the process. I have a month until the first offline tournament I'll participate in around a month, and I really want to win it haha.

Basically, it's just how fast I'm learning the character. Marth is a great character now and I hope you guys continue to learn him and use him in tournaments, but I will seldom do the latter.
 
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A_Kae

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Hey guys, I'm sorry, but I've switched my main from Marth to Ike. I still love Marth and I will play him (and Sheik) as a secondary and practice with him quite a bit, but I really need a character that I can actually learn from in offline matches and I actually have someone who can help me improve Ike offline so I am focusing on him. I really want to win tournaments man, and playing as Ike really seems like the best way for me to do so. Also Ike is freaking cool and I love Radiant Dawn so much.

Can't underestimate the power of having someone who can teach you a character offline and can have some good dittos with you, even though I played with him mostly when it was 1.06 I've still been able to transition all of that Ike gameplay almost seamlessly and it's amazing to see how my Ike is better than both my Marth and my Sheik.
You have to do what you can. And if Marth isn't a character that you can practice well, then switching is the best thing you can do.

Really, for everyone, if you're playing a character that you just don't feel like is for you, (for whatever reason) you should switch mains. No sense in trying to force yourself to use a character that you just can't.

On a different topic...

ZeRo made a video about the Marth buffs; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfl6nFuv9SA

I just think he doesn't 'get' Marth here or what the buffs did. What he wants is SH double fair (why do people even want this), more grab range, (that one is ok, Marth should be grabbing with his hand, not his wrist), more throw followups (play roy if that's what you want).

He didn't really talk about what the buffs did, and that's going to lead people to believe that Marth is much worse than he actually is.
 

Vipermoon

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While I'm glad ZeRo is putting into people's heads that Marth is still bad (rather than decent imo) for obvious reasons, he has been annoying me lately. In almost all of his videos he says something(s) incorrect and/or doesn't mention really important things.

Edit: maybe the reasons aren't completely obvious. I want more Marth buffs. And I want my opponent to underestimate my character and I.
 
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A_Kae

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While I'm glad ZeRo is putting into people's heads that Marth is still bad (rather than decent imo) for obvious reasons, he has been annoying me lately. In almost all of his videos he says something(s) incorrect and/or doesn't mention really important things.

Edit: maybe the reasons aren't completely obvious. I want more Marth buffs. And I want my opponent to underestimate my character and I.
Yeah, ZeRo's just saying some weird stuff in his videos. And given his position, people listen to him.

He's talking about things he doesn't completely understand, and the way he's saying it makes it seem like he does understand. Maybe he really does think he know what he's talking about here, I don't know.

I can say for sure that he doesn't know Marth well enough to be talking about this kind of thing.

Of course, people underestimating Marth is always great. As are buffs.
 

Vipermoon

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Okay I have a cool Dsmash idea for Marth. http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/ Check out the animation here (it's mostly the same in Smash 4).

As you can see, in Dsmash's animation, Marth strikes in front of him from left to right. Then, in order to bring the sword behind him, he actually strikes in front of him again (this time obviously from right to left). Exactly like how the first 2 hits of Nair work. The two slices look like they hit about 10-12 frames apart (not including hitlag).

- The first strike that we're used to will do say 6 and 9% damage and this new second hit will also do 6 and 9%. So 12% total sour, 18% total tipper.
- The 1st hit will lead into the 2nd hit either with a 100% trip rate on hit 1 (would make sense since on the Smash 4 animation hit 1 is lower than "hit 2" so it would trip) or just give hit 1 an autolink angle.
- Sour hit 1 will also always lead into sour hit 2 and vice versa for tipper.
- The angles after launch are unchanged (vertical for sour, horizontal for tipper).
- The new 2nd hit would be about as strong as our current Dsmash1.
- The back hit is unchanged.

Just something that came to me that I thought I'd share. It wouldn't make Dsmash good, that isn't the point of this idea. It just makes it cool without even changing the animations and considering every freakin sword character has the same Dsmash, it's a welcome uniqueness. The only benefits I see are higher damage and slightly safer on shield because of the later hit.

An addition on the same Dsmash idea: If the first hit hits an aerial opponent it spikes them! Would be the coolest edgeguard ever.

Dammit Sakurai, you could have been this creative! It's not even hard work in this case.

So what do you guys think?
 
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