Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[A_Kae]

Okay I have a cool Dsmash idea for Marth. http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/ Check out the animation here (it's mostly the same in Smash 4).

As you can see, in Dsmash's animation, Marth strikes in front of him from left to right. Then, in order to bring the sword behind him, he actually strikes in front of him again (this time obviously from right to left). Exactly like how the first 2 hits of Nair work. The two slices look like they hit about 10-12 frames apart (not including hitlag).

- The first strike that we're used to will do say 6 and 9% damage and this new second hit will also do 6 and 9%. So 12% total sour, 18% total tipper.
- The 1st hit will lead into the 2nd hit either with a 100% trip rate on hit 1 (would make sense since on the Smash 4 animation hit 1 is lower than "hit 2" so it would trip) or just give hit 1 an autolink angle.
- Sour hit 1 will also always lead into sour hit 2 and vice versa for tipper.
- The new 2nd hit would be about as strong as our current Dsmash1.
- The back hit is unchanged.

Just something that came to me that I thought I'd share. It wouldn't make Dsmash good, that isn't the point of this idea. It just makes it cool without even changing the animations and considering every freakin sword character has the same Dsmash, it's a welcome uniqueness. The only benefits I see are
higher damage and slightly safer on shield because of the later hit.

An addition on the same Dsmash idea: If the first hit hits an aerial opponent it spikes them! Would be the coolest edgeguard ever.

Dammit Sakurai, you could have been this creative! It's not even hard work in this case.

So what do you guys think?

I've got nothing to add here.

This is just a super cool idea.

 

[Shaya]

ZeRo's video had me thinking, he's kinda right. I think if you know how someone plays really well (frequent opponent or whatever) then Marth can succeed against just about every top tier, but when we think about reliability he is still kinda poor in at least one thing: damage output.
He has good damage punishes, 10-30% depending on what, but he doesn't really have any 'combos' or really high value rewards/strings. I think the fact he has tipper fsmash just kinda relegates this character to either being busted or needing to be a bit below par like Ganondorf (although he is definitely a lot better than Ganon right now).

His jab/up tilt are now useful, we're in there. But I'd argue we still have average or worse fair, uair, dair within this cast, and nair is still unrewarding damage (although functional!). Our jab is maybe as good as Sheik's ftilt at the best of times, and having functional moves again isn't keeping them from being average-ish still.
His down smash, dash attack and some of his throws are dysfunctional . Shieldbreaker is underwhelming really, only really functional against slows/fatties. Dolphin Slash having reward/killing is fantastic but it's poor in recovery (worse in that regard only than Brawl for sure), it doesn't protect him on ascent like majority of other vertical up-b's do, it's not consistent enough as an on stage threat for it being (growing skill in people exploiting 1 frame vulnerability due to the positioning discoveries) so meh. Just about every character can challenge dolphin slash, while it takes near miracles for characters to challenge G&W, Marios, MKs, Links, Tinks, Peach, Zero Suit and so on. Just the truth of it.

He's still limited. That's the general gist of @ChileZeRo's message although he doesn't really know why/how or makes suggestions that readily remedy things. Hella amazing aerials again would make him Captain Falcon-esque level or so, probably a little worse.
Limited characters are going to be exploited or in the strictest sense not "viable" above local level in the long term.

I don't know why I'm in this mood, I basically solo-won a tournament with him thus far. But I'm not consistently able to keep up with other regional-based top players without a good 5-10 matches against them first. Marth requires not making mistakes and punishing a lot of everything, or at least one early tipper fsmash kill per match, with that much opponent knowledge needed it's a drag. Meanwhile, Zero Suit busting 0 to deaths or 3 stocks/2 stock low percent blow outs. Saaaaaa

 

[CURRY]

Well, Shulk dsmash is kinda different from all the other sword users... and lol
I'm in my own little world right now where Marth is still insanely good.
I'm in Taiwan visiting family, and since Taiwan isn't as insanely consumerist as the US is, there's still plenty of CRTs to play on.
And my grandparents have a Wii. And there's PAL Brawl.
I remember playing this version of Brawl when I was little and thinking that Ike/Fox/MK sounded so weird, but lol, after watching so many Japanese VODS, I've gotten used to it.

SB is so fun, although it's so hard to adjust spacing from Smash 4 to Brawl and back T___T
Man. Brawl Marth is stupid. SO stupid. His aerials were stupid, the endlag on his DB was stupid, FH dair OoS was useful (still accidentally do it in Smash 4 sometimes and get punished for it), smashes were so much better. aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth really just needs more damage on like...everything ESPECIALLY his throws.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm going to highlight the really good stuff.

ZeRo's video had me thinking, he's kinda right. I think if you know how someone plays really well (frequent opponent or whatever) then Marth can succeed against just about every top tier, but when we think about reliability he is still kinda poor in at least one thing: damage output.
He has good damage punishes, 10-30% depending on what, but he doesn't really have any 'combos' or really high value rewards/strings. I think the fact he has tipper fsmash just kinda relegates this character to either being busted or needing to be a bit below par like Ganondorf (although he is definitely a lot better than Ganon right now).

His jab/up tilt are now useful, we're in there. But I'd argue we still have average or worse fair, uair, dair within this cast, and nair is still unrewarding damage (although functional!). Our jab is maybe as good as Sheik's ftilt at the best of times, and having functional moves again isn't keeping them from being average-ish still.
His down smash, dash attack and some of his throws are dysfunctional . Shieldbreaker is underwhelming really, only really functional against slows/fatties. Dolphin Slash having reward/killing is fantastic but it's poor in recovery (worse in that regard only than Brawl for sure), it doesn't protect him on ascent like majority of other vertical up-b's do, it's not consistent enough as an on stage threat for it being (growing skill in people exploiting 1 frame vulnerability due to the positioning discoveries) so meh. Just about every character can challenge dolphin slash, while it takes near miracles for characters to challenge G&W, Marios, MKs, Links, Tinks, Peach, Zero Suit and so on. Just the truth of it.

He's still limited. That's the general gist of @ChileZeRo's message although he doesn't really know why/how or makes suggestions that readily remedy things. Hella amazing aerials again would make him Captain Falcon-esque level or so, probably a little worse.
Limited characters are going to be exploited or in the strictest sense not "viable" above local level in the long term.

I don't know why I'm in this mood, I basically solo-won a tournament with him thus far. But I'm not consistently able to keep up with other regional-based top players without a good 5-10 matches against them first. Marth requires not making mistakes and punishing a lot of everything, or at least one early tipper fsmash kill per match, with that much opponent knowledge needed it's a drag. Meanwhile, Zero Suit busting 0 to deaths or 3 stocks/2 stock low percent blow outs. Saaaaaa

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The Kutthroats have set out to draw their character thanking Iwata for all he has done.

We invite you to do the same.

 

[Vipermoon]

Very crispy video of Brawl Marth. In every scene I asked myself if Smash 4 Marth can do those exact things and lol when I came up with all NOs for some reason or the other.

 

[Shaya]

We need auto cancels back so badlyyyyyyyyyy. Some fast fall aerial stuff is good obviously, but bleh.
And why is walking so underpowered/crap in this game?

Like, for having the best mobility spec in something it sure feels absolutely useless to use in this game.
And down smash being as bad as it is :\

Having our best strengths in off-stage gimping and juggling hit by free ledge grabbing and no vulnerability air dodges when we only have laggy juggle tools #_# while all of our aerials being worse (seeing tipper fairs kill from one side to the other at 130%... >_<).

Ughh I avoid watching Brawl Marth stuff for this reason.

 

[Vipermoon]

We need auto cancels back so badlyyyyyyyyyy. Some fast fall aerial stuff is good obviously, but bleh.
And why is walking so underpowered/crap in this game?

Like, for having the best mobility spec in something it sure feels absolutely useless to use in this game.
And down smash being as bad as it is :\

Having our best strengths in off-stage gimping and juggling hit by free ledge grabbing and no vulnerability air dodges when we only have laggy juggle tools #_# while all of our aerials being worse (seeing tipper fairs kill from one side to the other at 130%... >_<).

Ughh I avoid watching Brawl Marth stuff for this reason.

SORRY Shaya. I didn't think this would affect you that bad. But yeah the ACs definitely the biggest buff he could ever get back. Lol current tipper Fair doesn't kill some characters till past 200% across stages. Of course, closer to the blast-zone our Fair is very scary still due to DI changes for Smash 4.

I feel like people would use Marth's walk more if it didn't take half a stage to reach max speed.

 

[A_Kae]

I'm with shaya here.

I sometimes feel that Marth is ok in smash 4 but then I watch brawl marth and realize just how wrong I am. I try to stay away from it.

Although, while from a 'making the character better' perspective I want better autocancels, damage, and whatever makes him accelerate so slowly when walking, from a 'why does fair not hit on f5 and why does utilt not hit' perspective, I want the hitboxes fixed more.

I can live Marth being 'bad' or whatever you want to call him in this game right now, but the hitboxes are just needlessly frustrating.

 

[CURRY]

lol, I want fair to hit above Marth again. That animation is kinda ridiculous. :/

 

[Locuan]

@ kj22 , I forgot to answer your question on stream last Tuesday D:

I couldn't head out to Houston Saturday since my sister is staying with me. However, I was able to secure passages to EVO...

 

[Vipermoon]

@ Shaya Did tipper SB in Brawl do more shield damage than non-tipper?

It's like that in Melee apparently. Turns out SB ended up having a different kind of tipper.

 

[Shaya]

100%, no it didn't, beyond intrinsic 'higher damage'.

 

[A_Kae]

Specifically, it did 42 extra shield damage, and 8/9 regular. With the 30% damage reduction that shields take, that's 35/35.7 total. It does 38/39 total now.

Having SB tipper be better at shield breaking (maybe 35ish shield damage?) would be great.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah uncharged it doesn't do much more. They want us to charge it. Charging it in this game gradually increases the extra shield damage unlike past games where you only got that fully charged.

Tipper doesn't do extra shield damage because it's unfair towards Lucina.

 

[A_Kae]

Yeah uncharged it doesn't do much more. They want us to charge it. Charging it in this game gradually increases the extra shield damage unlike past games where you only got that fully charged.

Tipper doesn't do extra shield damage because it's unfair towards Lucina.

Do we know how charging works with SB? How much of an increase in damage there is per frame or however often it increases? That would be really good data to have.

 

[Vipermoon]

Do we know how charging works with SB? How much of an increase in damage there is per frame or however often it increases? That would be really good data to have.

We don't. It's a huge mystery because SB in this game rises in 1% increments (maybe even less than 1%). We don't even know exactly how strong a non-fully charged SB can get (probably 18% tip, 17[?] non-tip, but it could be a decimal). We can only guess shield damage too. Like I said in the SB thread, if it's1% increments and uncharged does +30 extra shield damage while fully charged is +50 then an increase of +2 for every percent charged is probable (with maximum non-fully charged being +48).

 

[kj22]

Imagine marth in a 1 stock meta (first 25 sec of video) https://youtu.be/rIx8WGJu5sQ

 

[Langston777]

Imagine marth in a 1 stock meta (first 25 sec of video) https://youtu.be/rIx8WGJu5sQ

dtilt edgeguard, is this melee HD?

holy fug that was nice dude, i wouldn't even think of fsmashing after dtilt, i'd probably run off and try to fair a bunch of times. the marth strats i tell you. i bet you would have had another kill at 0:45 too, the way you stood there after the empty hop made it look like you tried to fsmash too early. have a feeling that would have KO'd again.

 

[A_Kae]

I just found an odd thing with u-tilt.

As we (probably) all know now, u-tilt moves us forward if we perform another action at the new FAF/IASA. Except for a few things that I've found, which move us backwards.

U-Smash, D-smash, shielding, jumping, and shield breaker all move Marth back if done immediately at the end of u-tilt instead of forwards.

Jumping in particular moves Marth fairly far back, but it's all noticeable movements.

Just thought you all should know.

Edit: Tested out other stuff, rolling and DS don't seem to move Marth in any direction more than usual after utilt.

SB customs also move Marth back, DS customs don't have any movement beyond what's already there.

 

[CURRY]

Imagine marth in a 1 stock meta (first 25 sec of video) https://youtu.be/rIx8WGJu5sQ

lol, watched the clip again...
Quick question: After the tipper, you were dashing around. Did you turn around from dash by doing a single dashdance or did you turn around after the dash slide?
I saw Mr. R doing the same thing in Force Majeure and thought that it was the dashdance, but when I did it, it didn't feel fast enough. >.>

 

[A_Kae]

lol, watched the clip again...
Quick question: After the tipper, you were dashing around. Did you turn around from dash by doing a single dashdance or did you turn around after the dash slide?
I saw Mr. R doing the same thing in Force Majeure and thought that it was the dashdance, but when I did it, it didn't feel fast enough. >.>

That's a dance trot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LISSQnPoio0

It's a combination of a fox trot and a dash dance. Very useful for Marth.

 

[Vipermoon]

I just found an odd thing with u-tilt.

As we (probably) all know now, u-tilt moves us forward if we perform another action at the new FAF/IASA. Except for a few things that I've found, which move us backwards.

U-Smash, D-smash, shielding, jumping, and shield breaker all move Marth back if done immediately at the end of u-tilt instead of forwards.

Jumping in particular moves Marth fairly far back, but it's all noticeable movements.

Just thought you all should know.

Edit: Tested out other stuff, rolling and DS don't seem to move Marth in any direction more than usual after utilt.

SB customs also move Marth back, DS customs don't have any movement beyond what's already there.

Very interesting. Anyone have ideas on why? I think we said the moving forward happened because of where his feet are at frame 39. But now...I have no idea.

 

[A_Kae]

Very interesting. Anyone have ideas on why? I think we said the moving forward happened because of where his feet are at frame 39. But now...I have no idea.

I have absolutely no idea why this would be happening.

Yeah, we thought that it was because of the FAF change before, but there's got to be something else going on. No idea what it could be, though.

Edit: It's not happening with Lucina. Just tested that. That's expected, though, she doesn't move forward either.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah and that was the other thing. Lucina never moved forward (and now apparently backward). The only explanation I had for that was it had something to do with how her PP Utilt slides while Marth's doesn't (in previous patches, idk about now).

 

[A_Kae]

Lucina still slides with PP utilt, Marth still doesn't.

This almost certainly isn't the case, but can anyone test this with 1.0.8? There's absolutely no reason why it should be different in 1.0.9, but I'd just like to be sure.

I just think it's strange that no one noticed this before. I mean, I'm sure we were all holding shield at the end of utilt to see if it was faster, right? So there would be that movement back, if it was in 1.0.8.

There's no reason it should be different in 1.0.8, but then this whole thing doesn't make sense.

 

[Vipermoon]

We definitely just didn't notice. There are absolutely no game changes in 1.0.9

 

[kj22]

lol, watched the clip again...
Quick question: After the tipper, you were dashing around. Did you turn around from dash by doing a single dashdance or did you turn around after the dash slide?
I saw Mr. R doing the same thing in Force Majeure and thought that it was the dashdance, but when I did it, it didn't feel fast enough. >.>

A_Kae hit it on the head, but in brawl it was called dash dance pivot I believe (DDP) very fun to perform, helps with spacing

 

[ZeroSnipist]

Hey Marth players! We from the Ryu boards are making a doubles thread. The purpose of the thread is to find the best partner for Ryu. I'm going to invite as many people I can at once and get discussions going on all at once. We invite you to our dojo and hope you could help us discuss Marth and Ryu in doubles. Thank you in advance!

 

[Vipermoon]

I just found an odd thing with u-tilt.

As we (probably) all know now, u-tilt moves us forward if we perform another action at the new FAF/IASA. Except for a few things that I've found, which move us backwards.

U-Smash, D-smash, shielding, jumping, and shield breaker all move Marth back if done immediately at the end of u-tilt instead of forwards.

Jumping in particular moves Marth fairly far back, but it's all noticeable movements.

Just thought you all should know.

Edit: Tested out other stuff, rolling and DS don't seem to move Marth in any direction more than usual after utilt.

SB customs also move Marth back, DS customs don't have any movement beyond what's already there.

You're right, he moves back pretty far with jump. This is good because Utilt hits at a 100 degree angle so Marth can jump and still keep himself in front of or directly under someone.

Interesting fact here. Marth moves backward with Utilt > crouch but nowhere with Utilt > Dtilt.

And not that you should use this one in particular but since Dsmash reaches further than Utilt a whiffed Utilt > Dsmash is usually a tipper Dsmash since he moves backward.

 

[Quickhero]

I know a lot of you folks play Street Fighter, so I have a question. How do you really play Street Fighter? Like I know that it utilizes more on neutral game compared to games like UMvC3 but I suck ass at Street Fighter games and one of the main reasons is I don't really know how I'm supposed to approach the game lol.

I'm playing Vega at USFIV. The reason being is because Vega was the character I played the last time I played a SF game and he looks pretty cool, and the reason for USFIV is because it's free on Steam now lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

 

[Gamegenie222]

^ This
also footsies and spacing or die. http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

 

[Quickhero]

Yo I don't trust tier lists from Shoryuken so I have a question for you all. How good is Yun? Apparently he's pretty damn good and so far he's been the most consistent (though I still suck lol) and ye just wondering if Yun is actually gr8 m8.

 

[Shaya]

So although I'm cheating a little and I wouldn't do this much for others, but understandably with Lucina appearing in many bottom tens, Marth often shared a bottom spot as well. Even with the recent buffs and whatnot he's still perceived in the lower regions of the cast. I can't help but feel we're the top tier (tipper silliness) waiting for a dominant advantageous state to be handed to us for free before people realise how potent he can be.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yo I don't trust tier lists from Shoryuken so I have a question for you all. How good is Yun? Apparently he's pretty damn good and so far he's been the most consistent (though I still suck lol) and ye just wondering if Yun is actually gr8 m8.

Since most tier list for most fighters come from SRK I guess that means you dont trust 90% of tier lists ever made.

Yun is a monster to answer your question.

 

[A17]

Has it been discovered that Marth's quick ledge attack has a hitbox near the bottom of his sword that spikes?

Some pretty good Marth player I fought 2 days ago by luck spiked me when I was recovering up the side of the stage.

 

[AetherStorm]

Has it been discovered that Marth's quick ledge attack has a hitbox near the bottom of his sword that spikes?

Some pretty good Marth player I fought 2 days ago by luck spiked me when I was recovering up the side of the stage.

I know what you're talking about, but I don't think it's a spike hitbox. I think what's happening is that the hitbox of the ledge attack knocks the opponent upwards no matter where it hits, so the hitbox basically just pulls the opponent upward into the stage, stage spiking them.

It happens with every character, and battlefield is the most prominent stage because of the stupid ledges.

 

[A_Kae]

I know what you're talking about, but I don't think it's a spike hitbox. I think what's happening is that the hitbox of the ledge attack knocks the opponent upwards no matter where it hits, so the hitbox basically just pulls the opponent upward into the stage, stage spiking them.

It happens with every character, and battlefield is the most prominent stage because of the stupid ledges.

Yeah, it's just a stage spike. The actual hitbox has a 45° angle.