Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[CommanderRin]

This is a huge benefit for me. Marth's Uair barely ACs in a SH and I have to have frame perfect Uairs for Utilt follow-ups and for juggles. Attack stick FTW

I guess I never notice these things since I've had C:stick set to tilt from the start.

 

[Langston777]

3 yoshis, 2 shieks, a plumber and a peach
i think i did alright. nairo bopped angel's shiek with lucina in grand finals, that was dope.

http://hitboxarena.challonge.com/smash4war35s/standings

still feel optionless vs yoshi and i have like, no experience vs sheik, but it doesn't seem that complicated, i just need to practice it a bit more vs good players. i wish i had the replay of the one sheik i fought though. took his last stock with shieldbreaker each match. makes me think that fsmashing sheiks shield might actually be a good option to set up shieldbreaker right after.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ever had a burning question you wanted to ask but can't find a way to word it without sounding terrible? Well, I decided to ask your Vipermoon after he said:

"I prefer things like edgeguards, gimps, traps, and combos over Smash 4's current 'almost any character can take a stock in a 2 stock meta with some dumb early kill really strong move.' A big offender that comes to mind is Roy's Fsmash. Marth's take some real skill. Roy's? Not really." After saying he doesn't like the design behind Marth's Fsmash...

Well, you guys can probably guess what I asked... I asked him why he doesn't use Pit when he's all of that and more okay?

So, uh, I dunno... What do you guys think?

 

[Langston777]

isn't pits meta just grabbing and jabbing? his only combos are throw combos too as far as i'm aware

no offense, i don't think pit is a very complex character in 4. his only cool tool is his side B really. and a funky dair but i don't see it used much.

 

[Shaya]

Pit has less inherent risk available in his kit than Marth does... but what Marth does well with tends to be a lot better than what Pit has.
Marth's edge guarding is still a pretty beautiful thing.

 

[ReRaze]

isn't pits meta just grabbing and jabbing? his only combos are throw combos too as far as i'm aware

no offense, i don't think pit is a very complex character in 4. his only cool tool is his side B really. and a funky dair but i don't see it used much.

Pit has less inherent risk available in his kit than Marth does... but what Marth does well with tends to be a lot better than what Pit has.
Marth's edge guarding is still a pretty beautiful thing.

You guys are seriously underestimating pit's meta and abilities :/

Pit can combo with down smash, ftilt, fair, dair, nair even uair can be used to start a combo he doesnt just jab and grab lol he's alot more complex than people give him credit for he can pull off some pretty dope things.

I'd say his edge guarding is on par if not better than Marth's. His fair, bair and dair all kill about as early as marths tipper aerials but it's safer for him to use them, fair lasts longer, bair has as much if not more reach than marth and he can go for dairs as many times as he likes whilst having arrows for that extra pressure option. not to mention how deep he can go with his recovery and still safely make it back. Pit also has an insanely good zone breaker in dash attack unlike marth.
Though Marth does have his pros over pit too (I use marcina too so I'm not just blabbering )

Don't get me wrong, I can see where you are coming from though, considering his forum is like dead and you don't really see that many pits.

 

[A_Kae]

Ever had a burning question you wanted to ask but can't find a way to word it without sounding terrible? Well, I decided to ask your Vipermoon after he said:

"I prefer things like edgeguards, gimps, traps, and combos over Smash 4's current 'almost any character can take a stock in a 2 stock meta with some dumb early kill really strong move.' A big offender that comes to mind is Roy's Fsmash. Marth's take some real skill. Roy's? Not really." After saying he doesn't like the design behind Marth's Fsmash...

Well, you guys can probably guess what I asked... I asked him why he doesn't use Pit when he's all of that and more okay?

So, uh, I dunno... What do you guys think?

So, Pit has got a similar playstyle to Marth. That's true, though whether Pit does it better is arguable (I'd say not significantly better). So does Zero Suit Samus, and she does it better than both (sort of comes with the territory of being of top5 character).

And ZSS is probably my least favorite (or close to it) to both use, and fight against. That's what it comes down to. Preference.

The general playstyle of a character is important when choosing a main. In this case, it's a focus on spacing, footsies, and traps primarily. All three of them do that. But Marth does that in a way that I like much more than the others. Pit's (and ZSS's) tools just don't interest me as much as Marth's, and I don't like the way that they work as much as Marth's. It's preference thing.

So that's why I use Marth. And until that changes, I'll still use Marth.

Even if he's not good. Because it's more than just tiers to me.

--

Also, since I want to weigh in on what Lucina needs to be not terrible, but was too late and and didn't want to get a warning/ban by posting in the Competitive Impressions thread:

@ Vipermoon said this and I agree with it mostly.

How to make Lucina perfect...

Let her keep her Mask on for her down taunt until the player decides to take it off. Here is everything that changes when Lucina is wearing it:

- In addition to putting the mask on, she tucks her hair in so that she looks exactly like she does in Awakening with the short hair and everything
- Her name next to her percent is changed to "Marth?"
- Her standing animations are now identical to Marth's (NVM they already are)
- Her taunts are now Marth's except in English which would be really cool
- She takes the mask off with down taunt still but only with a special input (double tap, light tap, or hold button)
- During counter, she says (in English) the Marth counter quotes (that are actually missing from the english version of this game) which would be even cooler
- Let's say Lucina somehow wins a match, her victory lines and animations will also match Marth's (again, English) which would be infinitely cool
- However, during the victory the announcer still says Lucina wins as he is all-knowing and will not fall for this trickery
- Otherwise, all of her usual voice clips are removed during her attacks to help disguise her femininity. It'll be like wire frame Little Mac

But for actually making her less terrible of a character, she needs hitlag modifers. Giving her something like a 0.8x modifer on the blade, and 0.6x on the tip would be a good way having her be more safe on shield. Which is the main problem that Lucina has, from a competitive standpoint. The presice numbers a just a guess, I'm just suggesting less hitlag, rather than those specific modifiers.

The thing is, she's doing less damage, has less kill power, and isn't as safe on shield. Which just makes her much worse than she could be.

Marth's edge guarding is still a pretty beautiful thing.

Oh, it is, isn't it! Fair gimps forever.

though it's be even more beautiful if fair hit on f5

I would like to share a secret. I don't like tipper Fsmash much and I'm a Marth main. Things like this and some of the nerfs turn him into this berserker character rather than the one we were used to. In fact, I don't like pretty much every move in this game that kills too early. Kill power in this game has skyrocketed (at the same time, damage plummeted) compared to previous games. Too many things are "too strong." Basically, most Smash attacks. Generally speaking, Smash attacks in this game do less damage, much more knockback, and lag more. Then you have rage and weakened DI to add to the fire.

That's just me. I prefer things like edgeguards, gimps, traps, and combos over Smash 4's current 'almost any character can take a stock in a 2 stock meta with some dumb early kill really strong move.' A big offender that comes to mind is Roy's Fsmash. Marth's take some real skill. Roy's? Not really.

This is MY OPINION guys.

I actually agree with you here. Tipped f-smash is killing way too early, and it feels like it was meant to make up for Marth's low damage output in this game. As in, he can kill earlier than almost everyone else (and absolutely earlier than everyone of his same speed class).

At least there's some skill behind it.

Nerfing the KBG from 80 to maybe 60 or so would make it much less of a 'berserker' move. IMO it should be killing at about 80ish from the center of FD, not 60.

As long as there were some significant buffs to go along with it.

 

[Shaya]

Hit lag modifiers on Lucina like that would make her significantly safer.
Like .6 hitlag on well spaced? You've just made Lucina better than Marth at being rewarded for good fundamentals/smart play. I know it was a magic number but...

Lucina within current design paradigms just can't really be altered beyond superficial lines at all. She's Marth with less depth with strength aligned to be "comparable" to Marth while still being overall worse/redundant if played optimally. That's why Marth can have extra things like "extreme" kill power on some tippers or hit lag modifiers (that both help and hurt him).

But yeah the power behind our fsmash is likely a lot of the reason our character has been so average (and was started out as so average). There's probably a limit to the amount of buffs we can get because the moment we start to function like other characters is the moment comboing into fsmash will be "reliable" and that won't be fun (it may actually make Lucina more viable than Marth tbqh... the sheer idea of Lucina's sub 100% killing fsmash being as easy as a fair into the ground makes me shudder).

 

[A_Kae]

Yeah, 0.6 is way too safe. I just threw out a number there, just as something that's close to Marth's untipped attacks.. Actually looking at what that would mean is makes me realize that it's way too low. Although I meant to have the 0.8x at the tip, and the 0.6x at the blade. Still too safe. I just feel like the hitlag is a big part of what's holding her back. Just a lack of safety on shield for less reward on hit.

Edit: I suppose Lucina is just meant to be that way. Just a worse Marth.

 

[Vipermoon]

So, Pit has got a similar playstyle to Marth. That's true, though whether Pit does it better is arguable (I'd say not significantly better). So does Zero Suit Samus, and she does it better than both (sort of comes with the territory of being of top5 character).

And ZSS is probably my least favorite (or close to it) to both use, and fight against. That's what it comes down to. Preference.

The general playstyle of a character is important when choosing a main. In this case, it's a focus on spacing, footsies, and traps primarily. All three of them do that. But Marth does that in a way that I like much more than the others. Pit's (and ZSS's) tools just don't interest me as much as Marth's, and I don't like the way that they work as much as Marth's. It's preference thing.

So that's why I use Marth. And until that changes, I'll still use Marth.

Even if he's not good. Because it's more than just tiers to me.

--

Also, since I want to weigh in on what Lucina needs to be not terrible, but was too late and and didn't want to get a warning/ban by posting in the Competitive Impressions thread:

@ Vipermoon said this and I agree with it mostly.



But for actually making her less terrible of a character, she needs hitlag modifers. Giving her something like a 0.8x modifer on the blade, and 0.6x on the tip would be a good way having her be more safe on shield. Which is the main problem that Lucina has, from a competitive standpoint. The presice numbers a just a guess, I'm just suggesting less hitlag, rather than those specific modifiers.

The thing is, she's doing less damage, has less kill power, and isn't as safe on shield. Which just makes her much worse than she could be.



Oh, it is, isn't it! Fair gimps forever.

though it's be even more beautiful if fair hit on f5



I actually agree with you here. Tipped f-smash is killing way too early, and it feels like it was meant to make up for Marth's low damage output in this game. As in, he can kill earlier than almost everyone else (and absolutely earlier than everyone of his same speed class).

At least there's some skill behind it.

Nerfing the KBG from 80 to maybe 60 or so would make it much less of a 'berserker' move. IMO it should be killing at about 80ish from the center of FD, not 60.

As long as there were some significant buffs to go along with it.

I wish I could give you more than 1 like but I can't.

But if Fsmash were to be in a 60/80 situation I'd rather have 60BKB and keep the 80 growth.

I would love it if Marth's hitlag was 0.7 blade and 1.0 tip. The latter will make him feel like Melee Marth. Then we can give Lucina a consistent 0.8 or 0.85 hitlag which represents the damage Lucina does (in general if Marth did 7% non-tip, Lucina does 8 - 8.5).

Not only do you get improved shield safety but stage spiking, other tech situations, and generally reacting to things will all be more in Marcina's favor.

 

[A_Kae]

I wish I could give you more than 1 like but I can't.

But if Fsmash were to be in a 60/80 situation I'd rather have 60BKB and keep the 80 growth.

I would love it if Marth's hitlag was 0.7 blade and 1.0 tip. The latter will make him feel like Melee Marth. Then we can give Lucina a consistent 0.8 or 0.85 hitlag which represents the damage Lucina does (in general if Marth did 7% non-tip, Lucina does 8 - 8.5).

Not only do you get improved shield safety but stage spiking, other tech situations, and generally reacting to things will all be more in Marcina's favor.

Lowering the BKB probably is a better idea.

Interesting fact about f-smash if it had 60 BKB. Against Marth at 0%, both players would be able to act on the same frame (if it hits on f13).

Agree about hitlag. Less is better, and Lucina especially needs it. Not sure about the precise numbers, though. I worry that tips might be too safe with a 1x multiplier. maybe 1.1 or something.

Anyways, since I know how you feel about patches, have you seen this?: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-update-1-10-coming-friday-7-31.412011/

I'm unsure about if there's going to be balance changes with it. Seems too soon.

But, tournament mode!

 

[Vipermoon]

Lowering the BKB probably is a better idea.

Interesting fact about f-smash if it had 60 BKB. Against Marth at 0%, both players would be able to act on the same frame (if it hits on f13).

Agree about hitlag. Less is better, and Lucina especially needs it. Not sure about the precise numbers, though. I worry that tips might be too safe with a 1x multiplier. maybe 1.1 or something.

Anyways, since I know how you feel about patches, have you seen this?: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-update-1-10-coming-friday-7-31.412011/

I'm unsure about if there's going to be balance changes with it. Seems too soon.

But, tournament mode!

I'm excited for it, especially tourney mode. Looks like it wasn't going to be mid August, huh?

Smashcapps has it at 1.10 instead of 1.10.0 or 1.1.0 or 1.0.10 and for some reason I'm interested in what they choose.

Yeah if they were using Evo data for balance it does seem kind of soon, but I'm still thinking a balance patch is likely. Besides .4, .6, .8, .10...it's been going by 2s.

 

[A_Kae]

I'm excited for it, especially tourney mode. Looks like it wasn't going to be mid August, huh?

Smashcapps has it at 1.10 instead of 1.10.0 or 1.1.0 or 1.0.10 and for some reason I'm interested in what they choose.

Yeah if they were using Evo data for balance it does seem kind of soon, but I'm still thinking a balance patch is likely. Besides .4, .6, .8, .10...it's been going by 2s.

Well, there was wiiu 1.0.2, and that wasn't a balance patch. And 1.0.5 for 3ds was one.

I've made a preemptive thread for the patch changes, since none of the old patch threads had the OPs updated with the changes. I can be sure that I will (if there are any changes): http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-1-10-patch-changes.412024/

 

[LancerStaff]

isn't pits meta just grabbing and jabbing? his only combos are throw combos too as far as i'm aware

no offense, i don't think pit is a very complex character in 4. his only cool tool is his side B really. and a funky dair but i don't see it used much.

Pit has tons of stuff, like how his Dair is a mini MK Uair of sorts. So you can scoop somebody off the ground and combo from there. Combos into Uair until 70-ish on Mario. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of Marth's combos all at low percents besides jab > whatever and the Crescent Slash grab release?

Besides the combos, Pit has a great dash attack, great dash grab, all his aerials SH-AC, untouchable recovery, great projectile for both camping and tacking on extra % in advantage, and probably the biggest thing, his range. Just about all of Pit's moves have more reach then Marth's equivalents with similar frame data. Some better, some worse.

I'm no expert on Marth, but the big thing I'm seeing compared to Pit is power. Don't really know the specifics...

So, Pit has got a similar playstyle to Marth. That's true, though whether Pit does it better is arguable (I'd say not significantly better). So does Zero Suit Samus, and she does it better than both (sort of comes with the territory of being of top5 character).

And ZSS is probably my least favorite (or close to it) to both use, and fight against. That's what it comes down to. Preference.

The general playstyle of a character is important when choosing a main. In this case, it's a focus on spacing, footsies, and traps primarily. All three of them do that. But Marth does that in a way that I like much more than the others. Pit's (and ZSS's) tools just don't interest me as much as Marth's, and I don't like the way that they work as much as Marth's. It's preference thing.

So that's why I use Marth. And until that changes, I'll still use Marth.

Even if he's not good. Because it's more than just tiers to me.

Pit has less inherent risk available in his kit than Marth does... but what Marth does well with tends to be a lot better than what Pit has.
Marth's edge guarding is still a pretty beautiful thing.

Either I'm not understanding or you guys are seriously underestimating him... Pit's easily top twenty. Marth was pretty much unusable until a patch or two ago. To me it sounds like your putting them on about the same level. I know it's not a tier thing and stuff, but have you guys ever put some time into him just to see?

 

[A_Kae]

Pit has tons of stuff, like how his Dair is a mini MK Uair of sorts. So you can scoop somebody off the ground and combo from there. Combos into Uair until 70-ish on Mario. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of Marth's combos all at low percents besides jab > whatever and the Crescent Slash grab release?

Besides the combos, Pit has a great dash attack, great dash grab, all his aerials SH-AC, untouchable recovery, great projectile for both camping and tacking on extra % in advantage, and probably the biggest thing, his range. Just about all of Pit's moves have more reach then Marth's equivalents with similar frame data. Some better, some worse.

I'm no expert on Marth, but the big thing I'm seeing compared to Pit is power. Don't really know the specifics...

Either I'm not understanding or you guys are seriously underestimating him... Pit's easily top twenty. Marth was pretty much unusable until a patch or two ago. To me it sounds like your putting them on about the same level. I know it's not a tier thing and stuff, but have you guys ever put some time into him just to see?

Marth and Pit aren't quite on the same level, but it's not a big difference. if Pit if top20, then Marth is probably top25/30 or something like that. Not significantly lower.

Marth's combos are essentially just falling uair at low percents, jab and nair at higher percents, and CS whenever.

Pit has got combos and range, but Marth has kill power, a larger disjoint, and speed over Pit.

I've 'put some time into Pit'. And he's not my kind of character. Marth is. That's really all there is to say.

And if I'm going to use a character that I don't particularly like for the purposes of tiers, I'll just go Sheik.

Edit: Marth may have been 'unusable' before 1.0.6, but he got huge buffs since then.

Edit 2: This came off a bit harsher than intended, so I'm just going to say here that's it's really just a matter of preference. Most of us here have probably tried other characters, but Marth is the one we like the best.

 

[Langston777]

pit's downsmash is actually broken on wifi, my pit has been dubbed the name "dsmash angel" because of how good it is.

anyway, i want to elaborate a bit more on this thing i did against the sheik player at my local. i sort of just realized this after the match i had.

What I was doing earlier in the match was Jab1 > Dancing blade. i feel like it's the best option to see how the opponent reacts to Jab1 cancel. and i saw that every time the shiek got jabbed (usually because of approaching with a predictable fair) he would fast fall shield. During the match i ended up trying to bait out a shield grab with an empty hop to fsmash, but he held his shield, so i ended up tipping it with my fsmash. It deals a hefty amount of shield damage. after that he tried to punish with a dash grab but didn't have the frame advantage and got hit by my jab1, which i converted into a standing shield breaker and popped his shield.

Im just mentioning this because my utility with SB has always been awful, I land SB all the time but when my opponents shield is at 100% life, (im pretty sure SB only does like 90 or 95% shield damage), so this is actually a decent way to apply SB in my opinion. the risk vs shiek is pretty low, i've never seen marth die to shiek sub 140% and while her punish game is consistent, she has low damage output. tipper fsmash deals enough shield damage to let you monkey around for a few seconds before it gets restored to 100% again.

just something to consider i guess. if nothing else, it would force a good player out of shield and make it easier to approach.

 

[Vipermoon]

Pit does NOT beat Marth in the range game.

For some reason when evaluating the entire cast in range, people think of and only of Fsmash. This is why I've read or heard absurd comments like "Link/Pit/Brawl Marth/ROY have more range than Marth.

Other than Fsmash, Marth's ground moves and aerial moves out-range and out-disjoint Pit while covering a wider arc around him. And he has grab, DB, and SB to add to his range game.

 

[Locuan]

Pit does NOT beat Marth in the range game.

For some reason when evaluating the entire cast in range, people think of and only of Fsmash. This is why I've read or heard absurd comments like "Link/Pit/Brawl Marth/ROY have more range than Marth.

There's a lot of misinformation. I still see, "Lucina is faster than Marth and as such is an aggressive rush down character." It's something that will happen constantly. Every time it pops up we need to give those people the correct information even though we have answered others with probably the same data.

 

[Langston777]

rushdown lucina is my favorite meme

 

[ReRaze]

Pit does NOT beat Marth in the range game.

For some reason when evaluating the entire cast in range, people think of and only of Fsmash. This is why I've read or heard absurd comments like "Link/Pit/Brawl Marth/ROY have more range than Marth.

Other than Fsmash, Marth's ground moves and aerial moves out-range and out-disjoint Pit while covering a wider arc around him. And he has grab, DB, and SB to add to his range game.

I think people are confusing Range, Reach and Disjoint

Not gonna argue marth has a longer disjoint

Pit probably has more reach though because I don't see marth extend that far out to get attacks.

They are about equal in range though.

 

[Vipermoon]

I think people are confusing Range, Reach and Disjoint

Not gonna argue marth has a longer disjoint

Pit probably has more reach though because I don't see marth extend that far out to get attacks.

They are about equal in range though.

No they aren't.

 

[ReRaze]

No they aren't.

What I mean by that is like....

1 on 1 If they both attacked at the same time marth would win because he has a larger disjoint. But if marth attacked first and he couldnt reach pit could reach him afterwards if they were in the same positions.

Edit: I'm gonna test this firther to see which moves have what range

 

[Vipermoon]

What I mean by that is like....

1 on 1 If they both attacked at the same time marth would win because he has a larger disjoint. But if marth attacked first and he couldnt reach pit could reach him afterwards if they were in the same positions.

Edit: I'm gonna test this firther to see which moves have what range

I already did before I made my rant on range. I used my trademark Smashville method. I already have Marth data do I just had to compare with Pit's moveset. Literally everything outranges Pit except Dtilt, Ftilt, and Fsmash. This is only because Pit takes huge steps forward with Fsmash and Ftilt and he sort of does that for Dtilt too (except for Dtilt he goes nearly back to original position). So those 3 moves aren't disjoint related and Marth still covers those wide arcs.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit does NOT beat Marth in the range game.

For some reason when evaluating the entire cast in range, people think of and only of Fsmash. This is why I've read or heard absurd comments like "Link/Pit/Brawl Marth/ROY have more range than Marth.

Other than Fsmash, Marth's ground moves and aerial moves out-range and out-disjoint Pit while covering a wider arc around him. And he has grab, DB, and SB to add to his range game.

Remember the big thing that hit Marth's Fsmash? He doesn't step forward as far during the attack. Pit has this on just about every attack. Dtilts have similar range even though Pit's blades are shorter (I know Pit's outranges Roy's by pixels, so it's probably the reverse for Marth), and then Fair is Pit reaching forward (yes, in the air) and spinning the two while connected. Pit's Fsmash out ranges Roy's to the point where Pit can stay out of range of Roy's and Fsmash punish without moving. It's at least equal between the two... Honestly, you probably can't tell the difference without going under the microscope.

 

[ReRaze]

I already did before I made my rant on range. I used my trademark Smashville method. I already have Marth data do I just had to compare with Pit's moveset. Literally everything outranges Pit except Dtilt, Ftilt, and Fsmash. This is only because Pit takes huge steps forward with Fsmash and Ftilt and he sort of does that for Dtilt too (except for Dtilt he goes nearly back to original position). So those 3 moves aren't disjoint related and Marth still covers those wide arcs.

Thats what I was talking about when I referred to Reach, Also what about aerials? I know pit reaches out alot wiith fair and especialy bair how do those compare with marth, im not talking about disjoint range exclusively here.

Remember the big thing that hit Marth's Fsmash? He doesn't step forward as far during the attack. Pit has this on just about every attack. Dtilts have similar range even though Pit's blades are shorter (I know Pit's outranges Roy's by pixels, so it's probably the reverse for Marth), and then Fair is Pit reaching forward (yes, in the air) and spinning the two while connected. Pit's Fsmash out ranges Roy's to the point where Pit can stay out of range of Roy's and Fsmash punish without moving. It's at least equal between the two... Honestly, you probably can't tell the difference without going under the microscope.

Also, ^ This,
you worded my thoughts reslly well

 

[Shaya]

I play Pit enough.
Pit is a more well rounded character.
That allows him to be more viable almost by default.

Marth's strengths still being "better" than the exact same ability Pit has should be no shock to you, even if Pit is still a better character overall.

Pit has a lot of his potential linked to arrow usage, and has niche specials in match ups like super armor/reflecting. But otherwise, come on now, if Marth teed up to the same "level" Pit was right now (auto cancels, end lag on things, hitboxes matching animations) he would be vastly superior to Pit bar the niche specials beyond arrow-skill (which expands Pit's skill cap well beyond most of the cast).

However, if I'm to be all vacuum like... only moves I'd definitely want from Pit are his dash attack, down smash and down air (maybe some of his throws); the rest of them are arguable as they have different merits... but in short the only things Marth wants of Pits are moves of his that are nearly absolutely useless.
Meanwhile Pit would love all of our tilts, feasibly several of our aerials, likely our jab and I bet they'd take our forward smash over theirs too (less so for kill power but more so the faster start up). Oh and I doubt many characters in the cast wouldn't want dancing blade either.

 

[ReRaze]

I play Pit enough.
Pit is a more well rounded character.
That allows him to be more viable almost by default.

Marth's strengths still being "better" than the exact same ability Pit has should be no shock to you, even if Pit is still a better character overall.

Pit has a lot of his potential linked to arrow usage, and has niche specials in match ups like super armor/reflecting. But otherwise, come on now, if Marth teed up to the same "level" Pit was right now (auto cancels, end lag on things, hitboxes matching animations) he would be vastly superior to Pit bar the niche specials beyond arrow-skill (which expands Pit's skill cap well beyond most of the cast).

However, if I'm to be all vacuum like... only moves I'd definitely want from Pit are his dash attack, down smash and down air (maybe some of his throws); the rest of them are arguable as they have different merits... but in short the only things Marth wants of Pits are moves of his that are nearly absolutely useless.
Meanwhile Pit would love all of our tilts, feasibly several of our aerials, likely our jab and I bet they'd take our forward smash over theirs too (less so for kill power but more so the faster start up). Oh and I doubt many characters in the cast wouldn't want dancing blade either.

If you gave marth those moves from pit you would have a pretty good character but it wouldnt synergize as well as it would with pit.
You have one point there that I agree with, I play both marth and pit equally and I agree They both have different merits in their moves. e.g I wouldn't swap pit's aeirals for marths or vice versa. How do I put it, the way I use pits aerials is to chase opponents offstage while the way I use marth is to keep the opponent offstage. Both of their movesets suit the characters very well with pit being able to go deep and apply pressure and marth having a great keepaway game
Also pit's fsmash is just as fast as Marth's both frame 10, asking for a swap is asking for a trade in range and consistency for potential (crazy) kill power.
I'd keep pits ftilt though since it has more reach, is good for spacing and has an easier tipper to kill with although I would love marths dtilt.

 

[Shaya]

No questions, our back air be bettar and would be a straight buff to Pit imo (although sourspot bair can be pretty cool).
Marth's fsmash is starting frame 10 and is a single hit. Pit's is laggier start up and as a multi hit can be potentially fallen out of/avoided.

I would say I chase off stage with Marth, but (not to sound too arrogant) I've had a decade of Marth edge guarding/off stage practice and it hasn't gotten "worse" from any other game. Marth can go very very deep and cleanly end a stock with a single strike of an aerial. Pit can do similar stuff and take more risk... but it's different, and I would almost argue Marth can end stocks in off-stage situations earlier than Pit (heck Marth is incentivized to go off stage while often Pit's better choices involve arrow harassment then interception of their recovery move).

 

[Vipermoon]

I agree with Shaya 100% in his 2 recent posts.

Also, Xacer, Marth's aerials included. Fair is about the same though. Still, it's the arcs. Actually let's talk about aerials. Okay so Pit has really good autocancels like how Marth did in previous games. But he has among the highest landing lag in the game. Every one of his aerials are weak, don't do much damage, and lag a decent amount (except Dair's lag). Only Marth's Dair loses the comparison.

If Dolphin Slash didn't exist you could argue that Pit is as good as Marth in edgeguarding especially with the multi-jump. But DS does exist and not only is it a gimp machine but it's a near instant way to snap to the ledge.

 

[AetherStorm]

I agree with Shaya 100% in his 2 recent posts.

Also, Xacer, Marth's aerials included. Fair is about the same though. Still, it's the arcs. Actually let's talk about aerials. Okay so Pit has really good autocancels like how Marth did in previous games. But he has among the highest landing lag in the game. Every one of his aerials are weak, don't do much damage, and lag a decent amount (except Dair's lag). Only Marth's Dair loses the comparison.

If Dolphin Slash didn't exist you could argue that Pit is as good as Marth in edgeguarding especially with the multi-jump. But DS does exist and not only is it a gimp machine but it's a near instant way to snap to the ledge.

Basically, all I've gotten from this conversation is that I want Marth to have multiple jumps.

 

[Vipermoon]

I would laugh so hard if Marth came into this game with another jump. No one ever jumps in FE games. Marth is lucky to even get that double jump buff he got.

 

[LancerStaff]

I play Pit enough.
Pit is a more well rounded character.
That allows him to be more viable almost by default.

Marth's strengths still being "better" than the exact same ability Pit has should be no shock to you, even if Pit is still a better character overall.

Pit has a lot of his potential linked to arrow usage, and has niche specials in match ups like super armor/reflecting. But otherwise, come on now, if Marth teed up to the same "level" Pit was right now (auto cancels, end lag on things, hitboxes matching animations) he would be vastly superior to Pit bar the niche specials beyond arrow-skill (which expands Pit's skill cap well beyond most of the cast).

However, if I'm to be all vacuum like... only moves I'd definitely want from Pit are his dash attack, down smash and down air (maybe some of his throws); the rest of them are arguable as they have different merits... but in short the only things Marth wants of Pits are moves of his that are nearly absolutely useless.
Meanwhile Pit would love all of our tilts, feasibly several of our aerials, likely our jab and I bet they'd take our forward smash over theirs too (less so for kill power but more so the faster start up). Oh and I doubt many characters in the cast wouldn't want dancing blade either.

Pit's arrows... They're powerful, but I think you're overrating how difficult they are to use. You aware of fullhop arrows? Fullhop and buffer a shot and you'll shave off 15-20 frames as long as you reach the FAF in the air before hitting the ground, and you'll shoot in the perfect position to snipe whoever's attempting to camp you. It's not Brawl arrows where you're more or less controling two things at once, the fired arrow is usually irrelevant by the time the lag ends. They're not even hard to control anymore.

...Weren't all of Marth's throws terrible? Pit's Dthrow is just like Roy's, Uthrow has good power and puts the opponent in a good position to shoot full of arrows if not using it for a cheese KO on a platform, and Fthrow's a great KO move since it comes out fast and Pit's dash grab is awesome. Bthrow has some tech setups and jablock stuff, but just pales in comparison to everything else Pit has.

Marth's tilts are good, but I don't think they're really necessary with Pit's aerials being as good as they are and Pit's jab existing. Marth's is obviously better now though. Pit's Fsmash only has six or so frames more endlag but has two distinct times where it hits, has tons of range, and still kills early. (80% around the ledge.) Marth's is stubby and has a large sourspot to deal with. Comes out on frame ten either way.

Marth's aerials... Bleh. Nair and Uair don't linger, Dair is trash (unless I'm missing something), and Fair would only be better if both Pit' Bair was intact for SH-AC and if it's actually more powerful then Pit's Bair which funnily has a tipper and is pretty powerful with or without.

I agree with Shaya 100% in his 2 recent posts.

Also, Xacer, Marth's aerials included. Fair is about the same though. Still, it's the arcs. Actually let's talk about aerials. Okay so Pit has really good autocancels like how Marth did in previous games. But he has among the highest landing lag in the game. Every one of his aerials are weak, don't do much damage, and lag a decent amount (except Dair's lag). Only Marth's Dair loses the comparison.

If Dolphin Slash didn't exist you could argue that Pit is as good as Marth in edgeguarding especially with the multi-jump. But DS does exist and not only is it a gimp machine but it's a near instant way to snap to the ledge.

Shouldn't be flubbing aerials in the first place since the timing is so lenient. And Dair and Bair do about 10% a piece, everything else does about 7%.

Pit's recovery as a whole is basically invincible if played smart. He can all the way to the side or bottom blastzone and still make it back. He has tons of tricks for dealing with offstage opponents, too.

Arrows don't necessarily have to be used onstage... When you do, you can charge them and give them tons of KB, and you can stall them indefinitely. A good Pit tries to get into your head when using arrows instead of just spamming them.

 

[ReRaze]

No questions, our back air be bettar and would be a straight buff to Pit imo (although sourspot bair can be pretty cool).
Marth's fsmash is starting frame 10 and is a single hit. Pit's is laggier start up and as a multi hit can be potentially fallen out of/avoided.

I would say I chase off stage with Marth, but (not to sound too arrogant) I've had a decade of Marth edge guarding/off stage practice and it hasn't gotten "worse" from any other game. Marth can go very very deep and cleanly end a stock with a single strike of an aerial. Pit can do similar stuff and take more risk... but it's different, and I would almost argue Marth can end stocks in off-stage situations earlier than Pit (heck Marth is incentivized to go off stage while often Pit's better choices involve arrow harassment then interception of their recovery move).

What I'd rather pit's bair because the tipper which kills just as early and is not only easier to land (sweetspot) but bair is safe on shield not to mention the lesser endlag that allows for followups (i.e chasing offstage/combos) And I dont see what you mean when you say take more risk, it is practically riskless for pit offstage. Marth may be able to end stocks earlier but his are situational pit is consistent and he can apply alot of pressure safely, if marth goes deep and he messes up e.g loses his jump or is put in a bad position thats basically his stock gone. For pit it doesnt matter if he loses one jump or all of them for that matter.

 

[Vipermoon]

Source: Thinkaman. His source: Dantarion

Pit
Bair
Frame 10-12: 12% 30b/96g (KO@ 155%) 46° Pierce
Frame 10-12: 8% 30b/96g (KO@ 249%) 66° Pierce
Max Damage: 12%
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 1
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 28

Marth
Bair
Frame 7-11: 12% 40b/94g (KO@ 138%) 361° 1.25-Hitlag Slash
Frame 7-11: 9% 40b/85g (KO@ 203%) 361° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 12%
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 32

Let's add total frames and landing lag from http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/
Pit
40 frames
20 frames landing
Covers directly behind him

Marth
39 frames
19 frames landing
Covers nearly 180 degrees from his feet to his head AND turns Marth around during start-up.

 

[ReRaze]

Source: Thinkaman. His source: Dantarion

Pit
Bair
Frame 10-12: 12% 30b/96g (KO@ 155%) 46° Pierce
Frame 10-12: 8% 30b/96g (KO@ 249%) 66° Pierce
Max Damage: 12%
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 1
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 28

Marth
Bair
Frame 7-11: 12% 40b/94g (KO@ 138%) 361° 1.25-Hitlag Slash
Frame 7-11: 9% 40b/85g (KO@ 203%) 361° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 12%
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 32

Let's add total frames and landing lag from http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/
Pit
40 frames
20 frames landing
Covers directly behind him

Marth
39 frames
19 frames landing
Covers nearly 180 degrees from his feet to his head AND turns Marth around during start-up.[/quote

I'm not really sure what you are trying to state here but this is what I got.

Marths bair might cover 180 degrees but how much range is there near the bottoms such as that he could safely hit shields while landing? it doesnt matter that there are a few frames of difference with Smash 4 having very little shield stun he would still get punished while pit could get away since his opponent cant shield grab him if he spaces his bair since pit reaches out and pulls back.

Also Pits jumps turn him around he doesnt even need to use bair to turn around...multiple times. Having bair turn him around again would only mess me up.

Marths bair is good and I love it but I love it on marth. it works great and with its wide arc but i wouldnt use it the same way I use pits bair. Thing is pit needs a good landing option and thats where i use bair he cant use nair like marth can to land.

 

[LancerStaff]

Source: Thinkaman. His source: Dantarion

Pit
Bair
Frame 10-12: 12% 30b/96g (KO@ 155%) 46° Pierce
Frame 10-12: 8% 30b/96g (KO@ 249%) 66° Pierce
Max Damage: 12%
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 1
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 28

Marth
Bair
Frame 7-11: 12% 40b/94g (KO@ 138%) 361° 1.25-Hitlag Slash
Frame 7-11: 9% 40b/85g (KO@ 203%) 361° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 12%
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 32

Let's add total frames and landing lag from http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/
Pit
40 frames
20 frames landing
Covers directly behind him

Marth
39 frames
19 frames landing
Covers nearly 180 degrees from his feet to his head AND turns Marth around during start-up.

Pit's autocancels, and that's the 3DS data. Not only is Wii U data closer together because of the smaller blastzones, there's also freshness and rage which brings things even closer. For reference, Pit's Wii U Bair kill %s:
Bair
147% (sweet)
216% (sour)

 

[Vipermoon]

Pit's autocancels, and that's the 3DS data. Not only is Wii U data closer together because of the smaller blastzones, there's also freshness and rage which brings things even closer. For reference, Pit's Wii U Bair kill %s:
Bair
147% (sweet)
216% (sour)

Marth's autocancels too. Almost every aerial autocancels.

Okay so it's 3DS blastzones so what? Wait are you implying that to make this a fair fight, we are going to compare Marth's training mode Bair to Pit's freshnesss + rage Bair near the ledge? I'm confused. None of the stuff you said made sense to me. Don't focus on the KO %s. Focus on the KB and other properties of the move.

 

[EnGarde]

Umm...tl;dr, but...why are there Pit mains in the Marth sub-forum arguing with Marth mains over their choice to play Marth?

 

[Vipermoon]

Umm...tl;dr, but...why are there Pit mains in the Marth sub-forum arguing with Marth mains over their choice to play Marth?

Lmao idk, kid icarus invasion. But hey, it's kinda fun though I'm sure it'll get old soon.

 

[EnGarde]

I can see the points on both sides of the fence, since I'm a huge fan of both characters. But, Pit mains, think about it if some Sheik mains came into your social thread and asked you why you don't play Sheik, because she can do nearly everything Pit can only better. You'd rush to defend your character, yeah?