Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[ReRaze]

Umm...tl;dr, but...why are there Pit mains in the Marth sub-forum arguing with Marth mains over their choice to play Marth?

Ummmm i didnt actually think we were arguing lol just some friendly rivalry or something

Lmao idk, kid icarus invasion. But hey, it's kinda fun though I'm sure it'll get old soon.

hahaha yes i find this fun too xD also pit forums are like dead Marth forums are so lively :')

I can see the points on both sides of the fence, since I'm a huge fan of both characters. But, Pit mains, think about it if some Sheik mains came into your social thread and asked you why you don't play Sheik, because she can do nearly everything Pit can only better. You'd rush to defend your character, yeah?

Im a huge fan of both too, I'm not asking them to play pit I'm just defending him whilst trying not to diss on marth since i like him too .

 

[Shaya]

They are characters that share archetypes, so they have a loooot of similarities.
I don't think the intent (or the message we're taking here) is "why play Marth when you can play Pit?"

Pit is a super mid-range focused fundamentals character.
Marth is a super precision focused punishing character. His toolset while by design are superior to Pit in mid range (dash fair/aerials and dancing blade) are balanced to be much less 'consistent' (i.e. less safe). They "should" be the same, but Marth is clearly skewed to be less safe with more rewards and as his mid-range isn't as functional as it used to be because of this lack of safety he's more about punishing (which is apart of fundamentals) than the entire swathe of fundamental skills.

 

[Xelion]

I would laugh so hard if Marth came into this game with another jump. No one ever jumps in FE games. Marth is lucky to even get that double jump buff he got.

Wait, kind of off topic, don't the Sniper, Archer, and Hero classes jump in FE Awakening? I could have sworn they did.

 

[LancerStaff]

Marth's autocancels too. Almost every aerial autocancels.

Okay so it's 3DS blastzones so what? Wait are you implying that to make this a fair fight, we are going to compare Marth's training mode Bair to Pit's freshnesss + rage Bair near the ledge? I'm confused. None of the stuff you said made sense to me. Don't focus on the KO %s. Focus on the KB and other properties of the move.

Whoops, that's in training on Wii U. I was saying that the difference is both smaller on Wii U and even smaller in practice. Thing is with KB numbers is that they're just numbers, and they're largely uncomprehensible in their raw form. Especially with Pit's weird KB values... All his multihit moves (read:half his moveset) have lowish base KB on the final hit but absurdly high growth. Marth only has two moves with more then 100 KBG and his his highest is 130, Pit has five and his highest is a whopping 270.

Pit's AC's faster, and combined with his lower fall speed he can use it much lower to the ground then Marth's, which gives it more effective range against shorter characters. Offstage, Bair turning Pit around would be a hindrance because then his more powerful aerial would turn away from him after using it once.

I can see the points on both sides of the fence, since I'm a huge fan of both characters. But, Pit mains, think about it if some Sheik mains came into your social thread and asked you why you don't play Sheik, because she can do nearly everything Pit can only better. You'd rush to defend your character, yeah?

Shiek isn't all that similar, though. Even the aforementioned ZSS, isn't similar because she doesn't have a sword or a conventional grab. Pit and Marth are highly similar characters, and it's a more interesting comparison because Marth used to have speed and power in previous games. Marth's character was essentially broken up for balance, and his speed went straight to Pit.

It's less "use Pit, he's better" and more "why don't you care about what happened to the other half of your character?" It's interesting because once everybody realized Lucina was a fraud Pit was the one who ended up with his speed there was a brief influx of ex-Marths in the Pit forums, but now I'm just left wondering why there's so little overlap between players even though they're so similar. Marth I'm sure has a better matchup against DDD then Pit, (It's one of those WTFLOLOL matchups like Zelda vs. Rosalina. ) along with more rushdown focused characters, and Pit does much better against campy and long-range zoner characters.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There's a lot of misinformation. I still see, "Lucina is faster than Marth and as such is an aggressive rush down character." It's something that will happen constantly. Every time it pops up we need to give those people the correct information even though we have answered others with probably the same data.

OR

We can just start stabbing people

Also guys Pit is not safer than Marth. His stuff on block is like....laughably bad compared to Marth. I'm so serious.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Owju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=120538987

 

[Vipermoon]

OR

We can just start stabbing people

Also guys Pit is not safer than Marth. His stuff on block is like....laughably bad compared to Marth. I'm so serious.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Owju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=120538987

Yeah Pit's frame data is really bad in many areas. Also thanks for using "than." Perfect post right there.

 

[ReRaze]

OR

We can just start stabbing people

Also guys Pit is not safer than Marth. His stuff on block is like....laughably bad compared to Marth. I'm so serious.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Owju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=120538987

....

Pit's down smash is safe on block, bair is safe, fair is safe, ftilt is safe, dair is safe you just have to know how to use his moves.

I wouldn't call pits moves (safe on block) laughably bad compared to Marth. (Although I do agree, its a little easier to keep safe on shield as marth)

And by safer I think we were talking about offstage game here.

Yeah Pit's frame data is really bad in many areas. Also thanks for using "than." Perfect post right there.

Pit has faster, grabs, smash attacks and Dash attack
Pits ditlt and utilt are faster than marth, ftilt is slower.
Marth has faster aerials all around except nair
Although I'll admit Marth's aerials are better in some situations (except dair pit has a far better dair regardless that it's one frame slower)
Regardless that marth has faster aerials, pit can still combo his e.g out of throws so it doesnt really matter
Marths frame data overall is very similiar to pit, they both have pros and cons in their moveset. it's the pros that really suit and help the characters movesets, and the way you use them e.g i dont think id use marths down smash or dair the same way id use pits.

 

[LancerStaff]

....

Pit's down smash is safe on block, bair is safe, fair is safe, ftilt is safe, dair is safe you just have to know how to use his moves.

I wouldn't call pits moves (safe on block) laughably bad compared to Marth. (Although I do agree, its easier to keep safe on shield as marth especially

And by safer I think we were talking about offstage game here.



Pit has faster, grabs, smash attacks and Dash attack
Pits ditlt and utilt are faster than marth, ftilt is slower.
Marth has faster aerials all around,
Although I'll admit Marth's aerials are better in some situations (except dair pit has a far better dair regardless that it's one frame slower)
Regardless, marth has faster aerials pit can still combo his e.g out of throws so it doesnt really matter
Marths frame data overall is very similiar to pit, they both have pros and cons. it's the pros that really suit and help the characters movesets, and the way you use them e.g i dont think id use marths down smash or dair the same way id use pits.

Man that Dair... Didn't expect it to get buffed as much as it did. Before it was just a fun, unique tool that Pit had. Now that it's knockback got cut down to where it KOs 22% later on the hitbox that pops people up.
Oh, right. Xacer, Pit finally got changes, and they're almost all buffs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

F-tilt is def not safe on block. idk where you got that from. Its like... -19 and doesnt do the kind of shieldpush back it would need to be safe.

D-smash is -23 and same deal. No where near enough block pushback.

 

[Shaya]

Pit down smash seems very safe in practice.

It sucks that a move can be up to 7 frames safer just because you missed a power shield :<

 

[ReRaze]

Pit down smash seems very safe in practice.

It sucks that a move can be up to 7 frames safer just because you missed a power shield :<

@ Emblem Lord ^^^^This. pits dsmash is actually very safe especially if you hit them out of their shield grab zone with the disjoint since it has no cooldown.

from experience, Ftilt is safe in certain situations or if you space it right against certain chars. Pivot ftilt on shield is also rly good since it pushes them infront of you so they cant instantly shield grab

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel confident in saying that the chars that actually matter in the meta will consistently punish a blocked f-tilt. You telling me Sheik, CF, Sonic, Fox and ZSS will have trouble punishing these moves on block?

Also all moves have cooldown. Don't say things like that.

 

[Shaya]

[oh and you don't seem to be arguing down smash, my bad, either way, maybe helpful rant; so ALTERED]
A move that's roughly -20 on block can be pretty hard to punish well spaced.
-20, plus 7 frames shield drop, -13, you can have up to 7 extra frames of lag depending on when you shielded that down smash (-13 to -6), then you'll most likely require a dash start up (at least 1 frame) for anything you can do to reach them.

So yeah a lot of good characters have 12 frame moves (dash attacks/dash grabs) that will be guaranteed, but 5 or less frames? That's down to Fox -maybe-. And how well do you know how long you were forced to hold shield before being able to move? It's a skill to work on but chances are if you're worried you could be dealing with a 5 frame punish window you aren't going to attempt to punish.

I guess that's a bit to why holding shield is so good in this game sometimes, lol.
Or why Sheik is amazing because she is virtually the only character with a practical forward facing aerial for people on the ground with the aerial mobility needed to reach swords in lag.

 

[ReRaze]

I feel confident in saying that the chars that actually matter in the meta will consistently punish a blocked f-tilt. You telling me Sheik, CF, Sonic, Fox and ZSS will have trouble punishing these moves on block?

Also all moves have cooldown. Don't say things like that.

Yeah obv it wouldnt work against those chars consistently but I shouldnt be spamming ftilt against their shields anyway when Pit has a grab game. Ftilt has different uses but it is pretty safe on the cast especially if your opponent doesnt react in time or if you pivot ftilt on shield and if you space it right. I wouldnt use ftilt in a way to get me punished by those characters but it can be safe if you use it right.

tl:dr its safe but only very specifically, its not a move id want to use on shield often as pit since there are better options.

lol my bad, very very little cooldown on downsmash.

 

[warionumbah2]

I hate all of you(and Ike mains).
http://i.imgur.com/aRcMSxX.jpg (warning: profanity)

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ warionumbah2
Hero-king is love. Hero-king is life.

Accept his blade.

It is an honor to die by his sword.

 

[LancerStaff]

One cool thing about Pit's Fair is that it's a multihit move, so then it can't be perfect shielded. Now, you can end up just hitting with the last hit, but you can't count on it. And it ends up being a guessing game wether or not the move has finished unless you know all the hits have hit... Which is just about impossible since it goes through it's hits so fast.

Thing is that we're not CPUs, we can't react instantly or tell which hit a move is on at a glance.

 

[Vipermoon]

I hate all of you(and Ike mains).
http://i.imgur.com/aRcMSxX.jpg (warning: profanity)

This is funny.

It has to be fixed though. The shield breaker and Utilt numbers aren't FAFs they are total frames so just remove the FAFs (so that it's "Utilt 39->36" for example). Call it Dancing Blade increased input window. Get rid of the unsure if buff or nerf. And then would have to add Dancing Blade 1 (or DB1) 41->39.

 

[Zorcey]

Out of curiosity, what does everyone here think Marth's worst couple of matchups are? I've been getting more variety in opponents lately, and some characters - as you've probably guessed - are harder to beat than others.

 

[Vipermoon]

Not sure who's the worst but bad MUs that come to mind are...
(gonna leave him here even though I recently found out that in practice we can throw out jab usually before he gets in after fireball)







No particular order

 

[kj22]

Worst: Sheik, Luigi, Fox (I live in the same city as Megafox, I see how terrible that my can be)
For me.

Awkward: Mk, link, DDD, shulk, ike post patch 1.08

Patience is a must: zss, sonic, pika?

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah but that's Megafox. When the Fox player has you in a skill gap it's going to suck bad. Like Ksev (#5 PR) here. I sometimes can't even take a stock off of him (2 stock). But Ally (#1 PR) (who has a rusty unexperienced Marth) can usually beat him with his Marth and there isn't that much of a skill gap between these two players especially if Ally is Marth.

Even in my experience, I'm always playing this friend of mine online. His Cpt. Falcon is usually able to beat me, there's a skill gap. Now we beat Cpt. Falcon and especially this patch this is true. But his Fox (slightly worse than his Falcon) goes toe to toe with me. I'm actually playing his Fox right now.

IMO, Fox is even.

Edit: But I don't think Sheik is a contender for our worst MU

 

[Quickhero]

So glad I kept Marth as a secondary. Ike and Marth have both just getting buffs every patch it's truly insane, but I need to know other match-ups Marth just poops on because atm I only plan on using Marth in tournaments for Rosalina (because Marth destroys her now) and Ike (because screw Ike mirrors lol) so knowing other match-ups would be nice.

So glad I kept Sheik too, since Sheik only got nerfed in f-air so the unfuness of spamming f-air is rip and now I can utilize all the other tools to beat basically Luigi and ZSS. So happy Sheik didn't get drop kicked, but at the same time 1.11(/1.12) is alive so maybe Sheik will get Diddy Kong'd. Guess we'll have to wait and see, though.

Ike is ridiculous now and has no bad match-ups. If you want anybody that says screw you to Sonic's spin dash btw you should try Ike out. His n-air and b-air make that possible.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Yeah but that's Megafox. When the Fox player has you in a skill gap it's going to suck bad. Like Ksev (#5 PR) here. I sometimes can't even take a stock off of him (2 stock). But Ally (#1 PR) (who has a rusty unexperienced Marth) can usually beat him with his Marth and there isn't that much of a skill gap between these two players especially if Ally is Marth.

Even in my experience, I'm always playing this friend of mine online. His Cpt. Falcon is usually able to beat me, there's a skill gap. Now we beat Cpt. Falcon and especially this patch this is true. But his Fox (slightly worse than his Falcon) goes toe to toe with me. I'm actually playing his Fox right now.

IMO, Fox is even.

Edit: But I don't think Sheik is a contender for our worst MU

Really? I think Sheik is still our worst, at the very least a contender... I mean, you even have her on your list. The worst matchups that I've encountered so far are Sheik, ZSS and Pika. In that order.

 

[Shog]

Okay today I played Marth again and man, he feels amazing again. I think his Up-Air (and Sword Trails) got fixed, right? Such a good character now imho

 

[Emblem Lord]

The chars he straight loses too are Sheik, ZSS and imo Sonic. The rest you just have to know what you are doing, but remember Marth did just get alot of help, so the meta has shifted once again. Cant really say much except Sheik is still Sheik and ZSS is still ZSS.

 

[Zorcey]

Thanks for the help, guys. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks we have it rough against Fox and Luigi.

I'm seeing some DDD, though? Maybe it's because I haven't fought any exceptional players who main him, but tippered attacks (and counters) are so easy to land on that guy, that it seems off to me. Can we be walled by Gordos or something?

 

[Shaya]

D3 has a good grounded spacing tool in his short dash (into shield or tilts), a good forward tilt and a solid grab game (at least against someone like Marth).

I haven't really agreed for a long time. Our back air no longer really has any competition from dedede in the air (his brawl bair rekt us). He can make recovering hard/death.
Reactive and passive mid range Marth... it works. We can trade with his forward tilt with tippers (usually aerials), which is pretty gud for us more often than not, respect it, vertically space and time aerials, he does have a disgusting blind spot above his ftilt height.

Otherwise I think people aren't around Olimar enough. Maybe this buffs changes things, but he definitely has felt in my mind as one of our worst since early WiiU. Oli's changes/buffs covered up nearly all the things we abused him for in Brawl (the functional tilts/non grab focused ground game), his aerials are better and his recovery is not something we gimp for free like in Brawl either. Pikmin latching is 'stronger' and we lack any safe moves which hit them off us, it's awful. Forward Smash and red pikmin too, ughhh. If he was still grab focused we still probably wouldn't be getting grabbed.
Functional dancing blade probably changed it a bit too, but how much I'm not sure.

I still don't think Link is that good against us.
12 frame tether. Sure.
Bigger sword than us, Sure.

But he still doesn't have a mid range game. Marth is not forced into attacking Link's shield or being outspaced by jab. We punish Link doing things, If Link isn't doing anything he's probably dying.
Dthrow Up Smash is quite stupid. Is it stupid enough?

Moves like Forward Air still beat everything Link has in reactive game play. I can see us losing mind you, I just don't think it's by any means certain.

Sonic, ZSS, Sheik, Luigi were pretty apparent to most I'd say. Ness probably too if we bothered to talk about it.

 

[kj22]

Yeah but that's Megafox. When the Fox player has you in a skill gap it's going to suck bad. Like Ksev (#5 PR) here. I sometimes can't even take a stock off of him (2 stock). But Ally (#1 PR) (who has a rusty unexperienced Marth) can usually beat him with his Marth and there isn't that much of a skill gap between these two players especially if Ally is Marth.

Even in my experience, I'm always playing this friend of mine online. His Cpt. Falcon is usually able to beat me, there's a skill gap. Now we beat Cpt. Falcon and especially this patch this is true. But his Fox (slightly worse than his Falcon) goes toe to toe with me. I'm actually playing his Fox right now.

IMO, Fox is even.

Edit: But I don't think Sheik is a contender for our worst MU

I say the gap between ksev and ally is pretty large.
I haven't seen any "top" Martha vs top foxesx asides from Nicko vs Larry lurr and that set went exactly how I imagined it would.

I'd love to see Ally's marth vs Larrys fox. And ally has been using Marth for awhile (at least according to Trela) and did have Marth as one of his secondaries in brawl.

I want to hear reasons why you (ppl in general) think it's even.

There's not much Marth can do to a patient sheik. And good luck getting a lead back. When I play against sheik/fox it makes me realize how slowww marth is (cool down wise) think there's a set of nicko vs Vinnie where Vinnie plays the mu correctly and there's nothing Marth can do. It's not impossible, but if the sheik has the mentality of "you come to me I have needles" its very difficult. Up close you have no moves to get her off you besides jab/up b, fair will "beat" out your moves (out speed)

I forgot about oli, started this post last night then readread shayas post and remembered fighting denti's oli


I'm probably among the minority who thinks marth/sonic isn't that bad, but that's mostly due to my vast exp vs sonic. Walking and reading/stuffing approaches is emphasized here

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean for the record, the only Sonic's I have ever lost too were 6wx and Blue. I have crushed all others when I used Marth. I can see the match as even after the buffs.

Sonic is just ****ing annoying.

 

[Shaya]

I probably don't think too "well" about match ups I have absolutely no reason not to go ZSS in, unless it's fun.

Sonic strikes both.
RIP

I'm kinda skeptical / want to believe we can go even or better with Luigi too.
This is not how Shaya's Marth encoded brain is meant to think.

 

[Emblem Lord]

idk Luigi just doesnt scare me.

He has to grab me.

How does he grab Marth unless Marth is sleeping?

 

[Shaya]

By shooting you with a projectile or shielding most of our moveset (especially if you have that Shield-DI)?
Like, fireball hitting our shield meant we got grabbed.


MAYBE not now. MAYBE.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Um. No?

Thats not free. Roll son. Or powershield.

also how does luigi punish spaced nair? dude slides far he when he blocks stuff. well no one can actually punish spaced nair but you get my meaning.

 

[Quickhero]

or shielding most of our moveset?

Really? How can he grab when he shields? As long as you space your moves at the tip against Luigi, I honestly don't see him being able to punish much. Especially if you use any of your retreating aerials. (Especially now because oml they shortened the lag on every single one of Marth's aerials)

 

[Vipermoon]

You guys can talk about all the crap you do in theory to make sure Luigi never grabs you but it's not that simple.

He'll get the grab, he'll get it.

 

[Shaya]

As I said... now it could be really different.
BUT I HAVE SOME WEIRD BIAS THING CLOUDING MY JUDGEMENT UGH.

 

[A_Kae]

You guys can talk about all the crap you do in theory to make sure Luigi never grabs you but it's not that simple.

He'll get the grab, he'll get it.

Yep. Sooner or later, you'll slip and get grabbed.

It's only a matter of time.

Edit: BTW, I posted this in the patch notes thread when I found it but it's something that we all should know.

F-tilt has the same backwards movement that utilt did/does when you shield/jump/crouch/u-smash/d-smash.

 

[Gamegenie222]

So glad I kept Marth as a secondary. Ike and Marth have both just getting buffs every patch it's truly insane, but I need to know other match-ups Marth just poops on because atm I only plan on using Marth in tournaments for Rosalina (because Marth destroys her now) and Ike (because screw Ike mirrors lol) so knowing other match-ups would be nice.

So glad I kept Sheik too, since Sheik only got nerfed in f-air so the unfuness of spamming f-air is rip and now I can utilize all the other tools to beat basically Luigi and ZSS. So happy Sheik didn't get drop kicked, but at the same time 1.11(/1.12) is alive so maybe Sheik will get Diddy Kong'd. Guess we'll have to wait and see, though.

Ike is ridiculous now and has no bad match-ups. If you want anybody that says screw you to Sonic's spin dash btw you should try Ike out. His n-air and b-air make that possible.

Persuade me to learn Ike then outside of playing all other FE characters since I can also play all the other FE characters at a tourney level?

EDIT: As for Luigi i'm still need to work on that MU with Marth and Sonic I haven't played that MU much at all with Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You guys can talk about all the crap you do in theory to make sure Luigi never grabs you but it's not that simple.

He'll get the grab, he'll get it.

Well yeah, but that situation is not free. He is not mathematically assured to get a grab.

also @ Quickhero you are on some good crack if you think Ike has no bad match-ups