Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[cerealkiller]

Your avatar doesn't look like Sasuke at first. It looks like the side of a head. The belt is a mouth. The Uchiha marking is the eye. And the sleeve and arm is this weird nose. Looks like someone from "Aaahh!!! Real Monsters"

lol I actually never saw Sasuke until reading this, I saw the face you're describing. Damn illusions!

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Also I just looked over data,

aerial dolphin slash is actually invincible 1-6 apparently (while grounded is 4-6).
I double checked each dump because I was pretty certain I originally tested this against little mac jab and had Marth lose out before the hitbox came out, but this could just be because of how small the hitbox is.

Yeah, I remember seeing this a while ago.

FOR THE FIRST TIME, I did some amazing aerial pressure trap into a reverse down smash.
Killing untippered at like 120%.

Like holy crap, I can cause people to throw 30 frames of lag on themselves with current Marth.


Down Air (for landing) now seems to have a fair balance of risk/reward.
To the point that I may consider it a good down air.

Btw, was the aerial trap set up with a ff uair? That should be really good now. I really need to get back home to play... _-----_

 

[Reizilla]

I finally played Lucina again after not playing her since just after the Mewtwo patch. I might actually use her now with all of these buffs she's gotten.

How are the match-ups against Falcon, Fox, Sonic and Ness?

 

[Shaya]

Probably good, probably not too bad, probably not too bad maybe worse, probably not too good unless they're bad.

 

[ben1707]

Hello guys! I'm a new guy in the competitive scene and I just found out about how greatly underused Marth is in Sm4sh meta game, and I think I just found a beautiful Marth 0-Death (or 90% with missed spike) combo, that's why I wanted you guys to tell me how good it actually is. The combo is: Back throw>Full hop bair>uair>utilt>full hop fair>fair>full hop fair>fair>second hop dair to spike>dolphin slash to return to the stage.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Hello guys! I'm a new guy in the competitive scene and I just found out about how greatly underused Marth is in Sm4sh meta game, and I think I just found a beautiful Marth 0-Death (or 90% with missed spike) combo, that's why I wanted you guys to tell me how good it actually is. The combo is: Back throw>Full hop bair>uair>utilt>full hop fair>fair>full hop fair>fair>second hop dair to spike>dolphin slash to return to the stage.

Isn't this literally the Ken Combo? It's already known within the Smash community. But Fair is pretty bad and this combo is easily avoidable in this game.

Also, Welcome!

 

[Reizilla]

Probably good, probably not too bad, probably not too bad maybe worse, probably not too good unless they're bad.

That lines up perfectly in the order I need it to. Secondary get.

 

[ben1707]

Isn't this literally the Ken Combo? It's already known within the Smash community. But Fair is pretty bad and this combo is easily avoidable in this game.

Also, Welcome!

Thank you for replying and for the nice welcoming! I really didn't notice how this was literally the Ken Combo because of the way it relied in fhop instead of shop, sorry! Also, am I the only one who seems to get 13% out of tippered Nair and 10% untippered on 1.1.0? Every comparison thread I've seen lists it doing 10% tippered and 9% untippered, and I'm not sure if it's the tread that is wrong or if it is my game being weird.

Isn't this literally the Ken Combo? It's already known within the Smash community. But Fair is pretty bad and this combo is easily avoidable in this game.

Also, Welcome!

Also, why is Fair so bad now?

 

[Shaya]

careful for double posts.

Neutral Air is now doing between 10% and 13% this patch, over 8%-11%.

 

[ben1707]

careful for double posts.

Neutral Air is now doing between 10% and 13% this patch, over 8%-11%.

Okay, thank you for the information and for the warning :D

 

[Chalice]

I feel like Marth should be using Nair as a staple move kinda like how it is for Roy. Since the dmg is buffed a lot it's more rewarding to use than Fair. Plus it's the aerial with the least lag (I think)

Fair should be used on a retreating SH

 

[Vipermoon]

Fair is very useful and very very good. Most characters in this game want our Fair. Don't call it bad.

 

[Langston777]

it's only 1 or 2 % and a couple frames, but i am really feeling these past two nair buffs

still can't uair to dair spike though, a true letdown

 

[Shaya]

I kinda want a 1% fair buff. A lot. Now.

Maybe it would need KB adjusted... untipper fair combo ability is in a pretty alright spot atm IMO.

 

[Vipermoon]

Meh. Compared to other faster Fairs our Fair does enough damage. All I want is about 3 more frames of autocancel and some vertical coverage.

it's only 1 or 2 % and a couple frames, but i am really feeling these past two nair buffs

still can't uair to dair spike though, a true letdown

You actually can Uair to Dair spike, I have a post on it on the (almost useless) Marth true combo thread.

 

[Langston777]

I kinda want a 1% fair buff. A lot. Now.

Maybe it would need KB adjusted... untipper fair combo ability is in a pretty alright spot atm IMO.

i agree. what i want is dthrow's arc to be changed so that it combos to bair better rather than uair

tipper bair to tipper fair out of dthrow is just so smooth at low %s. i don't think it's a true combo but the spacing and momentum is just perfect. i can never seem to pull it off in most of my matches though due to character weight or DI

some vertical coverage

this is my biggest gripe with the move right now.

 

[Chalice]

Fair is very useful and very very good. Most characters in this game want our Fair. Don't call it bad.

Whoa, where did I ever say it was bad? All I was saying/suggesting is that Nair should be incorporated as a staple move due to how much damage it does. Because of it's high damage I feel it's more rewarding than Fair but never did I ever say Fair is bad

 

[Vipermoon]

Whoa, where did I ever say it was bad? All I was saying/suggesting is that Nair should be incorporated as a staple move due to how much damage it does. Because of it's high damage I feel it's more rewarding than Fair but never did I ever say Fair is bad

You didn't say that someone above you did.

Not sure if I would call it the staple move over Fair. It's an amazing move at what it does well but Fair is more versatile. It does more. For example, strings and off-stage. But you pretty much can't compare them. They both have separate uses and cover different parts of Marth's body.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Ah. I was the one who called Fair ‘kinda bad'. My B.

I think I got convinced that it was bad because numerous people on Twtich/Youtube call Marth's Fair bad. Again, I apologize for the misinformation.

 

[kj22]

Marth's fair is bad.













If you're bad at using it

 

[Emblem Lord]

Give Marths fair full horizontal knockback on tipper and 2% damage increase.

**** that would be broken as hell.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

I just want the full coverage like viper said. At first, whenever I would watch my sword arc go through all kinds of delicious hurtbox and nothing registered it made me pop a blood vessel. Now, I have none left to pop...

 

[Zorcey]

Give Marths fair full horizontal knockback on tipper and 2% damage increase.

**** that would be broken as hell.

I see this a lot. Whenever someone brings up a potential way Fair could be buffed, they always say immediately afterward how broken the move would suddenly be. Are there any conceivable options for a Fair that's good, but not Melee-tier good? Would a little less endlag off or an auto-cancel achieve this?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well my vision would just make fair into the ultimate braindead footsie/edge guard tool. If Marth hits you with that off-stage you are pretty much dead besides a handful of chars in the game.

Best way to buff fair without making it braindead is just boost the damage. Anything else and it will be broken again. It's already on the cusp of stupidity.

 

[Dotty]

With the recent patches, what do you all think is our best upB these days?
Dolphin Slash has gotten a lot better, but Crescent Slash still has those FThrow combos.
I haven't really bothered with Dolphin Jump in a long time thanks to the lack of a hitbox.

Also, first post!

 

[Admiral_Dante]

With the recent patches, what do you all think is our best upB these days?
Dolphin Slash has gotten a lot better, but Crescent Slash still has those FThrow combos.
I haven't really bothered with Dolphin Jump in a long time thanks to the lack of a hitbox.

Also, first post!

Crescent Slash by far

 

[Shaya]

Fair or nair into crescent slash probably quite good now right?

I like dolphin slash though :3

 

[kj22]

So I finally used Marth versus Megafox and it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought. The major thing that sucks is getting carried around the stage, once he gets on hit in then were playing marvel (I wanna take you for a riiiiide) and being ledgetrapped. Neutral was meh getting him offstage was fun, disadvantage was horrid.

I'll post the vids on the analysis thread once they're up.

 

[cerealkiller]

(I may be a bad example, not being a great player, but) last weekend I fought a Fox online...jeez, he had to be a tournament level player, I couldn't even breath. Marth felt so helpless lol I'm sure I could have done much better but still, it made me feel Marth had no chance in that matchup (providing Fox is played like a beast).
Too bad he left after the first match.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth online?

lolwut

 

[Shaya]

I win with marth online way too much.

 

[cerealkiller]

Me too actually.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

I win with marth online way too much.

Shieldbreaker reads are OP...

 

[Shaya]

I rarely if ever use shieldbreaker.
Every time I come across a marth/lucina who spam it I get ill.
But still usually win.

 

[kj22]

I like using Marth these days. Feel like I can win most if not all the matches I play, and if I lose its more about me making mistakes and less about my character being bad.

Biggest issue for me is landing safely/getting juggled...and there's not much you can do sadly.

 

[Vipermoon]

Crescent Slash is better, no doubt. Even if DS had fixed hitboxes. You have a combo or at least a set-up from: Jab 2, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Nair, landing Nair, Fair, landing Fair, Bair, landing Bair, Fthrow, Bthrow, and Dashing Assault. And it still has it's combo/jab breaking uses with the frame 1 invincibility.
This is basically a Marth version of Bouncing Fish.
And on Battlefield you can almost use it punish-free and cover a huge portion of the stage while nearly wavelanding on the side platforms (and Smashville's is basically a true waveland).


If the Fox and Marth are on the same skill level the Marth shouldn't be too worried. I now admit Marth loses, but it's not by much.


Shield Breaker is so misused. I get pissed going against those Marth's on FG that think the ONLY way to land is landing with Shield Breaker. They spam it so hard that they literally run away JUST so they can turn around, jump, and charge it. It's release time is fast and it doesn't lag too hard so you sometimes just have to let them do it.
It has so much potential as an occasional say surprise ledge get-up read > they shield > you break or to punish shielding after end lag or for those times you have someone on a platform or an early partial-charged kill near the ledge.
And when spaced, it's barely punishable on the shields it doesn't break.
But no, some of them just spam it instead of keeping it locked away for the right moment to do something smart with it.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Crescent Slash is better, no doubt. Even if DS had fixed hitboxes. You have a combo or at least a set-up from: Jab 2, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Nair, landing Nair, Fair, landing Fair, Bair, landing Bair, Fthrow, Bthrow, and Dashing Assault. And it still has it's combo/jab breaking uses with the frame 1 invincibility.
This is basically a Marth version of Bouncing Fish.
And on Battlefield you can almost use it punish-free and cover a huge portion of the stage while nearly wavelanding on the side platforms (and Smashville's is basically a true waveland).


If the Fox and Marth are on the same skill level the Marth shouldn't be too worried. I now admit Marth loses, but it's not by much.


Shield Breaker is so misused. I get pissed going against those Marth's on FG that think the ONLY way to land is landing with Shield Breaker. They spam it so hard that they literally run away JUST so they can turn around, jump, and charge it. It's release time is fast and it doesn't lag too hard so you sometimes just have to let them do it.
It has so much potential as an occasional say surprise ledge get-up read > they shield > you break or to punish shielding after end lag or for those times you have someone on a platform or an early partial-charged kill near the ledge.
And when spaced, it's barely punishable on the shields it doesn't break.
But no, some of them just spam it instead of keeping it locked away for the right moment to do something smart with it.

Yeah, I've seen the SB spam Marth wayyyy too much. I feel like they're just salty people who were once SB victims and decided to get some revenge on the world. Either that, or they're basically addicted to destroying shields and just aren't subtle in the least going about it. Or maybe, they just like screaming Giga Shield Breaker too...

 

[A_Kae]

I have a really bad habit of trying to powershield all of those SB spamming Marths/Lucinas.

It doesn't always work.

 

[Reizilla]

But Wavebounced Shield Breaker is so much fun to look at.

 

[Vipermoon]

Complaining time

Let's go over some facts:
Marth's Dair
Frame 9-13: 13% 20b/80g (KO@ 176%) 361° 1.25-Hitlag Slash
Frame 9-13: 11% 40b/70g (KO@ 230%) 80° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Frame 9-13: 11% 30b/70g (KO@ 222%) 361° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Frame 11-11: 14% 20b/80g (KO@ 231%) 270° Slash
Max Damage: 14%
Enables transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
Cancels transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 55
End frame 59
Landing lag 24 frames

Why the hell does that spike do 20b/80g in knockback!? That's way too weak for a spike that is so difficult to connect and has this much of a commitment. I'm sick and tired of people SURVIVING my spikes (after the hard work of getting one) or not getting launched by it on stage at low-ish percents. Even the tipper has no knockback. I've never had 13% feel so weak before.

How does Marth, the character known for the greatest of spikes in previous games have something like this? They made this Dair under the same nerf Marth mentality that the rest of Marth was under. He is a lot better than game-release Marth, but the really specific stuff like Dair's knockback is being ignored (probably accidentally).

Proposed changes:
Tipper 20b/90g (+10 growth).
Spike 30b/80g (+10 base).
Autocancels on frame 48 (like Melee/Brawl). Pre-autocancels before frame 6 (or something).

Possibly:
Keep spike on only frame 11 but with larger hitboxes (I am aware that they currently are decently sized).
Add a frame 14 because there is a dead zone.