Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[KillLock]

Sheik favor but I could see an argument be made about a possible even mu. You get combo'd when you mess up but when you avoid her kill moves/mixups and apply the correct DI you'll live till 200%+ a stock. Similar to Snake in regards to survival? I dunno, she only lands the kill if you give her it.

Why is Luigi a bad mu? Walling out is a huge positive for Marth here I thought.
Luigi also has a hard time getting in if zoned correctly and we control space with our fairs tilts and smashes from my experience.

Anyone else been using db3/fair shield cross ups?

 

[Vipermoon]

Sheik favor but I could see an argument be made about a possible even mu. You get combo'd when you mess up but when you avoid her kill moves/mixups and apply the correct DI you'll live till 200%+ a stock. Similar to Snake in regards to survival? I dunno, she only lands the kill if you give her it.

Why is Luigi a bad mu? Walling out is a huge positive for Marth here I thought.
Luigi also has a hard time getting in if zoned correctly and we control space with our fairs tilts and smashes from my experience.

Anyone else been using db3/fair shield cross ups?

Your avatar doesn't look like Sasuke at first. It looks like the side of a head. The belt is a mouth. The Uchiha marking is the eye. And the sleeve and arm is this weird nose. Looks like someone from "Aaahh!!! Real Monsters"

 

[Locuan]

Your avatar doesn't look like Sasuke at first. It looks like the side of a head. The belt is a mouth. The Uchiha marking is the eye. And the sleeve and arm is this weird nose. Looks like someone from "Aaahh!!! Real Monsters"

O_o

I instantly recognized Sasuke when I saw the avatar.

 

[ReRaze]

Your avatar doesn't look like Sasuke at first. It looks like the side of a head. The belt is a mouth. The Uchiha marking is the eye. And the sleeve and arm is this weird nose. Looks like someone from "Aaahh!!! Real Monsters"

Lmao gimme some of what you've been smoking. XD

 

[Xelion]

Your avatar doesn't look like Sasuke at first. It looks like the side of a head. The belt is a mouth. The Uchiha marking is the eye. And the sleeve and arm is this weird nose. Looks like someone from "Aaahh!!! Real Monsters"

I'm trying to see what you saw but I just can't. XD
But if the arm was a nose and belt was the mouth, that is one messed up face.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Well, I can kinda make out what he's talking about, and yes, it sorta reminds me of Krumm...

Also, @ Xelion , what is that gif in your sig from?? I feel like I should know it...

 

[Xelion]

@ Admiral_Dante The Gif is from GinTama, the Benizakura Arc, which also became a movie.

 

[kj22]

**Powershielding** and rolling help Luigi get in more then he should, of along with the fireball guessing game. He can fireball you then dash grab, dash shield, dash attack/down b, sh fair, or roll behind (or even stand still and watch your reaction for later) to get in on Marth and get him where he doesn't wanna be--the air, where its difficult to land. While luigi fireballing isn't an auto grab, its def a guessing game versus competent Luigi's. Also better ones will spotdodge attacks instead of shield them to avoid the shieldslide. On paper it seems the mu should benefit Marth but in actuality Marth has to play pretty damn on point, the margin of error is slim in this mu.

Its def possible to zone Luigi out, the question is how long/well can you do it? Esp when you're most likely getting small pokes off your walling and he's getting major damage and stage control for getting in on you.

Sheik favor but I could see an argument be made about a possible even mu. You get combo'd when you mess up but when you avoid her kill moves/mixups and apply the correct DI you'll live till 200%+ a stock. Similar to Snake in regards to survival? I dunno, she only lands the kill if you give her it.

Why is Luigi a bad mu? Walling out is a huge positive for Marth here I thought.
Luigi also has a hard time getting in if zoned correctly and we control space with our fairs tilts and smashes from my experience.

Anyone else been using db3/fair shield cross ups?

If you're talking about sh rising fair to landing crossup dancing blade *1* then yes I do that, not sure about this db3 crossup though? Explain!

 

[Zorcey]

Hmm, this talk about Luigi is interesting. In theory, it actually sounds like Marth has a neutral matchup with him, if not a slightly advantageous one. As one would expect, everything in the matchup centers around whether or not Luigi gets in for the grab. Marth has, on paper, the tools to mitigate the chances of being grabbed, but I think everyone would agree that this is easier said than done. Speaking practically, we are at a disadvantage. Of course, when deciding how to rank a given matchup, we're supposed to assume each character is being played to their maximum potential.

If Marth is being played to his maximum potential, then, does he beat Lugi?

 

[Vipermoon]

That's true. Luigi has more higher level tournament representation and is pretty well developed.

 

[KillLock]

@ kj22

If you dancing blade close enough on shield, the third strike will step you far enough forward to cross up shield. Landing Fair crossups are really interesting as well because it now gives you the option to fade in on people holding shield and cross up with a Fair if you're close enough.

 

[Zano]

made it out of pools, **** u Nike, can't post **** now


/post I woulda made last night if I had internet

 

[Vipermoon]

@ kj22

If you dancing blade close enough on shield, the third strike will step you far enough forward to cross up shield. Landing Fair crossups are really interesting as well because it now gives you the option to fade in on people holding shield and cross up with a Fair if you're close enough.

That and Uair/Nair cross-ups. Every time I want to cross-up with Uair I think of how much Roy's Uair is better for this job (has 3 more active frames at the end).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I finally sat down to look at combos in training. Obviously there are many but here's some I want to mention...

I had a landing Fair on a 55% Marth combo into tipper Fsmash for the kill. It's very difficult though. The Fsmash usually doesn't reach.

Landing Fair also combos into rising Fair now. So say hi to Fair strings across the stage (not that I wasn't doing those anyway last patch).

Apparently down throw to Uair true comboed Marth at 106% (random number I set) for the kill... he never had a hoo hah why now? I checked into it some more and I got it to work at many percents including 120%. Some percents are actually harder/easier to do than others due to short hop/full hop and double jump heights/rising speeds.

These ones are obvious but falling Uair and the back hit of Utilt to tipper Fsmash are very reliable.

 

[Shaya]

Fair -> Jab -> Fair > Fair > probably take their stock.

Also while we haven't really proven this ever (and probably will have a hard time doing so), there's a possibility physical changes to animations or models could happen that could help things.

Up Air has felt WEIRD since this patch. I'm hitting sour spot up airs that seem to kill (never would it ever), and getting sour spots that are clearly tipper spacing although I feel as if I'm getting more up airs in general still...

do you think it's possible they made him extend his arm more or something?
(we're now in the extremely dangerous placebo zone).

But in general though, I think it was feasible to have marth dthrow upair show up as a combo up until very high percent on some characters, but as we know it cannot be trusted because you can air dodge before hit stun naturally would run out.

 

[Vipermoon]

Uair felt weird for me in 1.0.8 and even more weird this patch. I brushed it off as me getting better at using it, and I still kind of believe that. But who knows...?

True, you can air dodge some of the things training mode counts as a combo. Forgot about that. Do you know the specifics of how this works? I get the counter uses hitstun duration but how does an air dodge break that? Is it only air dodges?

 

[A_Kae]

Since 1.0.6 (or maybe 1.0.7) changed which subaction each special is, here's the new list:

219 (179E4623)| Shield Breaker (Ground, Uncharged)
21A (95397715)| Storm Thrust (Ground, Uncharged)
21B (E23E4783)| Dashing Assault (Ground, Charged)
21D (16E98CE7)| Shield Breaker (Ground, Charged)
21E (FCEB92D3)| Storm Thrust (Ground, Uncharged)
21F (8BECA245)| Dashing Assault (Ground, Charged)
229 (C044B7AA)| Shield Breaker (Air, Uncharged)
22A (107CBCFB)| Storm Thrust (Air, Uncharged)  
22B (677B8C6D)| Dashing Assault (Air, Uncharged)
22D (93AC4709)| Shield Breaker (Air, Charged)  
22E (712FD466)| Storm Thrust (Air, Charged)
22F (0628E4F0)| Dashing Assault (Air, Charged)
231 (D720F989)| Dancing Blade 1 (Ground, Forward)
232 (0E52839F)| Effortless Blade 1 (Ground, Forward)
233 (7955B309)| Heavy Blade 1 (Ground, Forward)
235 (F4F52A6F)| Dancing Blade 2 (Ground, Up)
237 (8896AFBF)| Heavy Blade 2 (Ground, Up)
239 (6A96D208)| Dancing Blade 2 (Ground, Forward)
23A (BAD71945)| Effortless Blade 2 (Ground, Forward)
23B (CDD029D3)| Heavy Blade 2 (Ground, Forward)
23D (F5374058)| Dancing Blade 3 (Ground, Up)
23F (43CA7C1A)| Heavy Blade 3 (Ground, Up)
241 (BD8BB6F4)| Dancing Blade 3 (Ground, Forward)
242 (649E515C)| Effortless Blade 3 (Ground, Forward)
243 (139961CA)| Heavy Blade 3 (Ground, Forward)
245 (6B54B83F)| Dancing Blade 3 (Ground, Down)
247 (068CFA76)| Heavy Blade 3 (Ground, Down)
249 (F07856DD)| Dancing Blade 4 (Ground, Up)
24B (5ECF4CA2)| Heavy Blade 4 (Ground, Up)
24D (F2CA2033)| Dancing Blade 4 (Ground, Forward)
24E (D6BE8D4C)| Effortless Blade 4 (Ground, Forward)
24F (A1B9BDDA)| Heavy Blade 4 (Ground, Forward)
251 (6E1BAEBA)| Dancing Blade 4 (Ground, Down)
253 (1B89CACE)| Heavy 4 (Ground, Down)
255 (F995F668)| Dancing Blade 1 (Air, Forward)
256 (9AE162EA)| Effortless Blade 1 (Air, Forward)
257 (EDE6527C)| Heavy Blade 1 (Air, Forward)
259 (232FDBE6)| Dancing Blade 2 (Air, Up)
25B (0DD36451)| Heavy Blade 2 (Air, Up)
25D (BD4C2381)| Dancing Blade 2 (Air, Forward)
25E (3F92D2AB)| Effortless Blade 2 (Air, Forward)
25F (4895E23D)| Heavy Blade 2 (Air, Forward)
261 (22EDB1D1)| Dancing Blade 3 (Air, Up)
263 (C68FB7F4)| Heavy Blade 3 (Air, Up)
265 (6AA8D115)| Dancing Blade 3 (Air, Forward)
266 (4465670E)| Effortless Blade 3 (Air, Forward)
267 (33625798)| Heavy Blade 3 (Air, Forward)
269 (BC8E49B6)| Dancing Blade 3 (Air, Down)
26B (83C93198)| Heavy Blade 3 (Air, Down)
26D (27A2A754)| Dancing Blade 4 (Air, Up)
26F (DB8A874C)| Heavy Blade 4 (Air, Up)
271 (25E947D2)| Dancing Blade 4 (Air, Forward)
272 (F645BB1E)| Effortless Blade 4 (Air, Forward)
273 (81428B88)| Heavy Blade 4 (Air, Forward)
275 (B9C15F33)| Dancing Blade 4 (Air, Down)
277 (9ECC0120)| Heavy 4 Blade (Air, Down)
279 (1BA6EBD5)| Dolphin Slash (Ground)
27A (17DB0241)| Crescent Slash (Ground)
27B (60DC32D7)| Dolphin Jump (Ground)
27D (3513E434)| Dolphin Slash (Air)
27E (8368E334)| Crescent Slash (Air)
27F (F46FD3A2)| Dolphin Jump (Air)
281 (85C513B2)| Counter (Ground)
282 (529D842D)| Easy Counter (Ground)
283 (259AB4BB)| Iai Counter (Ground)
285 (16E97B17)| Counter (Ground, Attack)
286 (12D29679)| Easy Counter (Ground, Attack)
287 (65D5A6EF)| Iai Counter (Ground, Attack)
289 (AB701C53)| Counter (Air)
28A (C62E6558)| Easy Counter (Air)
28B (B12955CE)| Iai Counter (Air)
28D (825A9A62)| Counter (Air, Attack)
28E (55E51CCD)| Easy Counter (Air, Attack)
28F (22E22C5B)| Iai Counter (Air, Attack)

 

[Illuminado]

Have any of you guys read the Marth discussions on reddit? I'm glad the discussions here are far more constructive and less bitter. Yes we're aware that the character is potentially under tuned in many facets, but dear god the level of ******** there takes the cake! Basically this is a well done to everyone here and to keep up the good work as per constructive discussion and common regard for a character we all have an affinity for. Have a good day all and peace.

 

[LordShade67]

First problem is it's Reddit.

 

[Locuan]

@ Illuminado , moved your thread to our general/social.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fair -> Jab -> Fair > Fair > probably take their stock.

Also while we haven't really proven this ever (and probably will have a hard time doing so), there's a possibility physical changes to animations or models could happen that could help things.

Up Air has felt WEIRD since this patch. I'm hitting sour spot up airs that seem to kill (never would it ever), and getting sour spots that are clearly tipper spacing although I feel as if I'm getting more up airs in general still...

do you think it's possible they made him extend his arm more or something?
(we're now in the extremely dangerous placebo zone).

But in general though, I think it was feasible to have marth dthrow upair show up as a combo up until very high percent on some characters, but as we know it cannot be trusted because you can air dodge before hit stun naturally would run out.

I finally got access to 1.0.3 and can say for sure that Uair is the same range/animation.

SH Uair covered the shorter battlefield platforms equally in both versions.
SH Uair also reached the same vertical distance under the top platform.

Oh and Dancing Blade cannot be inputted with the A button in any version. I guess when I thought that once existed I was confusing it with completing Dancing Blade without touching the control stick (which is obviously still in).

 

[EnGarde]

We just had a successful character "crew swiss" style tournament with the pikachus, and guess what, guys! WE WON! Woot!

Click here to view the tournament details page.

Because this was a test run of a new tournament format, there was no easy challonge equivalent to run the tournament with, so uhh...Google spreadsheets ftw. x.x I couldn't advertise openly on the forums because the sign-ups used Google forms and I didn't feel like deleting all the garbage data it'd likely pick up being openly posted like that. I'm going to try and figure out a better solution, and hopefully we'll be able to challenge another character at some point.

Grand Finals:

 

[Vipermoon]

Good to hear.

SlayR's Marth is too hyper though. Too many inputs.

 

[A_Kae]

Good to hear.

SlayR's Marth is too hyper though. Too many inputs.

So many whiffed aerials.

I'm happy for him (and that a Marth won), but he's got to tone that down a bit.

 

[EnGarde]

I'll be sure to let him know. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Langston777]

he needs to learn the pikachu match up. sh fair isn't going to be hitting a grounded pikachu. stick to dtilt, grabs, and shielding. try to force him into the air because he ain't touching marth there.

 

[Shaya]

FOR THE FIRST TIME, I did some amazing aerial pressure trap into a reverse down smash.
Killing untippered at like 120%.

Like holy crap, I can cause people to throw 30 frames of lag on themselves with current Marth.


Down Air (for landing) now seems to have a fair balance of risk/reward.
To the point that I may consider it a good down air.

 

[Langston777]

i just finished up a set with my Ike buddy and i experimented mixing up dairing on landing. i'm loving the 4 frame buff (when it actually helps), but he tech'd it almost every time as i expected, then i eat dtilt > fair and have to land again

it'd be even worse against a character like pikachu or fox who just upsmash you or combo you for 30+%

 

[Shaya]

why would you do it so you're tippering them?
You want to space it so it hits shields horizontally too.

 

[Langston777]

greedy for those combos i guess

 

[Shaya]

It's like a 2% difference between sour spot/spike. And the sour spot sends straight up and isn't techable.

Better spacing gets you sour spots. Sour spots with that 0.7x modifier on hit lag, makes it even safer.

 

[Vipermoon]

But Shaya, Dair spike 1.0 hitlag (not horrible) to tipper Usmash. Sometimes you just yolo.

But seriously though, you're right but not if they are within the range that the spike sends them to the tipper Usmash. Otherwise yeah.

How do you consistently get the 80 degree angle hit? It's kind of tough.

 

[Shaya]

Dair + fast fall at the right moment facing towards them :V

It's kinda "under" the sword as it starts at 0 degrees.

Also nah, Marth's up tilt is better.
Follow up move compared to one that doesn't kill that well.

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh I see.

Yeah Marth does have the Utilt killing in the bag. I just figured a good player would respect it and make sure to avoid that anti-air.

Lol but on for glory for example, I can literally walk up to them with a tipper Utilt (or turn around and tipper Utilt them out of their roll).

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Uggh, I need to play new marth... Stuck on a trip atm.

I just want to go on For Glory and spam jabs and tilts in the most frustrating ways possible. I heard the tourney mode was kinda a pain though waiting wise...

 

[Vipermoon]

Tourney mode sucks. More than half of the "normal" tourneys are casual 4 player FFAs and the 1 v 1s are still for glory FD only 3 MINUTES (like wtf) and they fill up like crazy. While the player made tourneys don't have enough options and it just creates an unorganized room anyone can join (even if it's supposed to be 1 v 1, no way to enforce that).

 

[CURRY]

Uggh, I need to play new marth... Stuck on a trip atm.

I just want to go on For Glory and spam jabs and tilts in the most frustrating ways possible. I heard the tourney mode was kinda a pain though waiting wise...

YOOO I FEEL YOU
I was on a trip to the UK when all the Marth hype was going on. The one with the massive jab launch angle buff (the jab -> fsmash patch) and where DS could kill and nair had a lag buff and whole ton of other stuff.
Also, Ryu and Roy happened when I was away.
That was almost torture, lol. I couldn't wait to get back home. UK trip was great though.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was away for the 1.0.6 buffs and all that dancing blade confusion debate. I hated how others found out Marth changes that I could have found. Thought no one somehow noticed the the Ftilt, Jab, and DB1 lag reductions even though they were among the first things I noticed when I got back.

 

[Shaya]

Also I just looked over data,

aerial dolphin slash is actually invincible 1-6 apparently (while grounded is 4-6).
I double checked each dump because I was pretty certain I originally tested this against little mac jab and had Marth lose out before the hitbox came out, but this could just be because of how small the hitbox is.

 

[Vipermoon]

Also I just looked over data,

aerial dolphin slash is actually invincible 1-6 apparently (while grounded is 4-6).
I double checked each dump because I was pretty certain I originally tested this against little mac jab and had Marth lose out before the hitbox came out, but this could just be because of how small the hitbox is.

Omg wow. Okay then. 1-6 inv. Cool stuff.

 

[Shaya]

I feel confident Marth loses to luigi still.
He just has nothing against fireball and shield.