Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[JingleJangleJamil]

@ Emblem Lord and anyone else willing to chime in.

What's your take on the Lucario match up. Lucario boards suck and you guys are all Mario talk at the moment. Who do you think wins? What does Marth need to do in order to win? What does Lucario need to do in order to win?

Just because we are talking about Mario in the MU thread that doesn't mean you can't ask about other MUs. I can't say much about this match up, but I have to say when you are going for the kill make sure to keep him under around 90% and be very careful with your spacing, because if you f smash him and he lives now you have to deal with his ridiculous aura + rage. I don't really know anything about Lucario, but I would say characters that can kill him before his aura reaches a high amount can give him some trouble. @ Locuan Feel free to move this post and Ulevo's post to the MU thread.

 

[Locuan]

That's fine. As @ JingleJangleJamil mentioned @Ulevo just because we are on the Mario Match-Up does not mean we can't talk about the Lucario Match-Up. As you may have noticed there's been some discussion on Sonic recently as well. Go ask in the Match-Up thread and hopefully people who are knowledgeable in the match-up can help you out. In my case, there aren't Lucario's in my local region so I can't give you my insight.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lucario is pretty free in neutral. With rage he is scary off a read or a trap situation. For customs im not sure. I need more research. But in default its close imo.

 

[Shaya]

I would feel Marth wins the match up. The range differences is a lot larger than in Brawl, Lucario's frame data still is much below average and Marth can kill/edgeguard lucario better than average.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

Isn't it just the weirdest **** ever when you put down a game for multiple weeks/months, come back and suddenly you've entered some stream of consciousness level beast mode you didn't know you had available?

Played some matches with my brother, a dedicated Shulk main who's been religiously playing the game since launch and pretty much streaked on him badly. I never knew how much of a mind game raw up smash could be when you've scored a knockdown or someone's recovering from the ledge with a roll or jump. That vacuum hit box is really good, especially against overly aggressive players. I just wish if I knew/Marth had some guaranteed followups to use in certain situations, especially off a down throw or tipper fair.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Isn't it just the weirdest **** ever when you put down a game for multiple weeks/months, come back and suddenly you've entered some stream of consciousness level beast mode you didn't know you had available?

Played some matches with my brother, a dedicated Shulk main who's been religiously playing the game since launch and pretty much streaked on him badly. I never knew how much of a mind game raw up smash could be when you've scored a knockdown or someone's recovering from the ledge with a roll or jump. That vacuum hit box is really good, especially against overly aggressive players. I just wish if I knew/Marth had some guaranteed followups to use in certain situations, especially off a down throw or tipper fair.

I thought it was weird at first too, but it kind of makes sense when you think about it. Taking a break from playing for a bit can help you play better, because you sort of cool down and it makes you focus more, or at least that is how it is for me.

@ Emblem Lord I finally saw the two videos from the tournament. That match you had against that Ike player was amazing.

 

[BrosUnited]

If I beat Nairo that means the game is degenerate. I should NOT beat a better player, because if I do that means the game is not competitive at all. He plays more, trains harder and more often. He deserved his win. Lost to a member of LoF named Hackoru. Same crew as NAKAT, False and Keitaro. Again, better player that plays way more. So im fine with it. 15th out of 106 people and I haven't used Marth in tournament in almost 2 months. I'm content with these results. Especially because I got to play custom Marth on stream.

Lol, Hackoru rarely plays against his crew and he doesn't play as much as you think.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

While I wrote it on other topic in this boards, I could use some training because I think I'm bit unsure what I do with Marth in order to get best out of him. Anyone could help? (-'~'-)

 

[Locuan]

While I wrote it on other topic in this boards, I could use some training because I think I'm bit unsure what I do with Marth in order to get best out of him. Anyone could help? (-'~'-)

There's a lot of resources you can utilize:

• Guide: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-blade-of-two-fates-marth-lucina-guide.379525/
• Marth Sparring Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/power-of-anris-legacy-marcina-sparring-thread.392682/
• Promotion to Great Lord Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/promotion-to-great-lord-marth-strategy-notes.370731/
• KJ's tournament vids: http://smashboards.com/threads/hero-kings-council-video-analysis.368553/page-8#post-18717986

There's a bunch more but you can find them in the Competitive Resource Thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/read-me-marths-competitive-resource-thread.382874/

Also, something that could also help is if you have videos of you playing the character and posting them on the video thread.

 

[Nike.]

So Megafox, our cities best player and maybe the best player in TX, decided to troll me this past thursday at our weekly. I had once said that if someone wins a weekly going all marth, I'd play the game and enter all of our tournies.

With the exception of Winners Finals and Grand Finals, he did.

Winners Round 2 - Megafox (Marth) vs Neo (Olimar): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rTCL-0d-P8
Winners Round 3 - Megafox (Marth) vs Lan (Falcon): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldWjrK9UtQE
Winners Quarters - Megafox (Marth) vs Sylveon (Sheik): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3IjTBJEmYw
Winners Semis - Megafox (Marth) vs Paw (Zero Suit Samus): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfICOxLCj9s
Winners Finals - Megafox (Marth/Fox) vs Jbandrew (Diddy): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pApuRGfSXp0

 

[Shaya]

I'm 1-0 in tournament sets with him

*flex*

 

[Locuan]

I got out of pools in Aftershock with Marth mainly (using Luigi and Sonic just two matches for counterpicks). I also won my first match in top 36 with Marth. I'll post the actual results when I get them. But basically, I'm happy with my performance. I was able to get out of pools in my second major tournament and also win my first set in bracket. I also got 13th/51 in Shockwave 22 on Friday utilizing Marcina losing to Aerolink and TM Hylen respectively. In all, both tournaments ended up being great practice for future events.

Side Note: I haven't dropped a set as Marth against a Rosalina yet :3 That can change at any moment though lol.

 

[kj22]

Wish I could like things more then once lol

Great job Locuan! What sets have you been running?

 

[Locuan]

I ran 3123 throughout both tournaments. Crescent Slash catches a lot of people off guard. However, there where those who knew its tricks and where able to DI out of it. Also, Aerolink was interested in the setup as he hadn't seen it before

 

[Quickhero]

@ Locuan if you ever face a Rosalina, try to pick Battlefield. It's Marth's best stage imo and it provides you with the most leeway to just get some nice aerials on Luma. Marth can take out Luma deceptively early with tippered f-airs so abuse that. (You can punish a poorly used Luma Warp with some tippered f-tilts too)

 

[The_Cardinal]

The Marth boards putting in work. Congrats @ Locuan ! Were any of your matches recorded on stream?

 

[Locuan]

The Marth boards putting in work. Congrats @ Locuan ! Were any of your matches recorded on stream?

Yes the first match (or close to the first) of the tournament on stream was actually myself against Critters amazing Ike. I lost that set but by the second match I was adapting.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Where was the tournament streamed? I am sorry, but I barely ever watch tournaments live I just wait until the videos are posted on YouTube. It is nice seeing Marth being used in tournaments. I hope soon we can even see Marth win at a tournament.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marcina isn't scared of Rosaluma. Even match imo.

 

[Nowayitsj]

I was just playing vs a rosalina, and we were on halberd in the air, I was on the top of the platform in the middle, she was directly under me and I Fsmashed while she was standing and it tipped her off the stage, I'm not sure if this works on all platforms but this can definitely catch rosalumas off guard if they're under a platform, you can fsmash tip them. Rosa too tall lol

 

[Locuan]

Hey there @ N Nowayitsj , welcome to the Marth Boards. I moved your post to the Marth General Thread. When you have observations such as the one's you posted please utilize this thread.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

Marcina isn't scared of Rosaluma. Even match imo.

There's something about the Marth/Rosalina match up I really like and feel confident in even when playing high level Rosalinas. It's hard to describe exactly, but something about fighting out of the sandwich pressure or making the best call between bullying Luma or Rosa depending on their own seperation level is fun.

On another note, they managed to make me hate the Mario/Marth match up even more here than I ever did in Project M 3.02. I fought this wild Mario player that was just suffocating me. If anyone here played Marvel vs. Capcom 3, it's like playing against Wolverine with Soul Fists. There was just no room to react to anything and whatever spacing I could accomplish online was immediately negated by a pro use of perfect pivots and nairs.

 

[Phoenon]

Double Marth has the best synergy ever get at me

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

My whole day at school there has not been a single April Fool's joke or prank, but on the internet that is a completely different story.

 

[Shaya]

Calling notable Marth/Lucina (and probably Robin) buffs in the patch.
Last patch seemed to heavily coincide with the shi-gaming japanese tier list.

Anyone ready for an auto cancel on maybe one of our aerials and suddenly we're [overpowered] Gucci?

 

[Xisin]

dear god give me back my auto canceling aerials and dancing blade that actually keeps people in it.

 

[Shaya]

Going by the data, I could see dancing blade's frame modifier being removed.
Just so it's out there though, DB will usually combo properly if you're landing DB1 in the air into a full combo.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Calling notable Marth/Lucina (and probably Robin) buffs in the patch.
Last patch seemed to heavily coincide with the shi-gaming japanese tier list.

Anyone ready for an auto cancel on maybe one of our aerials and suddenly we're [overpowered] Gucci?

I really hope we just get Brawl Marth or something close to that. The only difference I want to see from Brawl Marth is the amount of power his tippers have (As in keep it the same as it is now) and maybe increase the range on f smash to something between its range now and its range in Brawl. Do I care if it is broken or not? No...no I don't....I think it wouldn't be that broken anyways because if you are going to be doing air > ground combos you will most likely be hitting with the sourspot.

 

[Foodies]

I'd vote for:
-Increased aerial mobility
-Front end of dsmash back to how it was in Brawl (honestly never use this move right now because it's so bad, only good if you hit the reverse tipper/incredibly situational)
-Jab safe on hit, possibly come out 1 frame faster
-Put back the hitboxes on the arcs of his aerials
-Dash attack having either a better reward or faster startup/lower cooldown

 

[Shaya]

Right now Marth's dash attack and down smash are completely out of place as moves.
Marth's dsmash must be one of the most single useless moves in the game over all, it's actually horrendous. You wouldn't even use it in single player modes.
It's weaker than Pit's dsmash, slower to come out on the second hit (probably first hit too), and has a nice 40 extra frames of lag on top of it. Also does less damage than Pit's dsmash too.


Dash attack is kinda alright for what it does, but it's start up is kinda obscene. It's probably underrated though, if it was like 10 or less frames it would be pretty solid IMO.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I'd vote for:
-Increased aerial mobility
-Front end of dsmash back to how it was in Brawl (honestly never use this move right now because it's so bad, only good if you hit the reverse tipper/incredibly situational)
-Jab safe on hit, possibly come out 1 frame faster
-Put back the hitboxes on the arcs of his aerials
-Dash attack having either a better reward or faster startup/lower cooldown

IMO his aerial mobility is completely fine, but I forgot about the weird hitboxes Marth has and I think they should also fix that to make the hitboxes cover the entire arc of his attack. I also hope that they do something about Marth's dash attack. That dash attack is booty butt cheeks.

 

[Xisin]

ok ok i may be looking too into it, but does marths shield breaker seem obscenely fast in the lucas trailer? Also i actually use dash attack in this game, sometimes after a fair trip i can sneak in a tipped dash attack which is pretty nice.

 

[Nowayitsj]

We could do the chicken fries method, make too many hate videos emails etc, anti burger king stuff etc. Just you know, for marth until they say fk it and give us double fair short hop and more range and -insert broken stuff here-

 

[Emblem Lord]

Calling notable Marth/Lucina (and probably Robin) buffs in the patch.
Last patch seemed to heavily coincide with the shi-gaming japanese tier list.

Anyone ready for an auto cancel on maybe one of our aerials and suddenly we're [overpowered] Gucci?

Marth getting buffed would not be good for the metagame Shaya. You know this.

I'm not too keen on Marth getting buffs. That said I think the meta is already kinda ****ed so eh w/e.

 

[Shaya]

I think Marth having his fair landing lag put to 9 frames would be kinda not good for the meta.
In general I think about me getting fairs to fsmash even easier than before and have a sense of dread/regret.
So I'll give you that.

Marth once had everything and now has little though. Stuff like Marth v Mario/Luigi won't be suddenly going opposite directions assuming humble buffs.
Marth used to have better mobility specs than those characters, better grab range than those characters, better grab rewards/followups than those characters, better out of shield options. And he had mostly better frame data, range and cool down than those characters.

Range is homogenized a bit better in this game. Marth could be given more grab game and likely not have game shattering impact. Marth could have his mobility buffed and that would make him funner to play for us and intrinsically better but would really only scale with high/top level play.
Everything else, the obvious stuff, I think in moderation won't **** him.

 

[Big O]

We could do the chicken fries method, make too many hate videos emails etc, anti burger king stuff etc. Just you know, for marth until they say fk it and give us double fair short hop and more range and -insert broken stuff here-

Lolwut? People actually raged at BK over the introduction of chicken fries? I can't even comprehend this lol.

As for possible Marth buffs, I just hope they buff him enough to make him not feel awkward. The lack of meaningful AC's and the slightly overnerfed landing lag could probably use some tweaking. A better jab wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Locuan]

At this point, we just have to sit back and see what happens. I'm excited for the coming months. New characters means new match-ups to learn, and the balance patch will definitely change things in one way or another.

 

[Vipermoon]

Right now Marth's dash attack and down smash are completely out of place as moves.
Marth's dsmash must be one of the most single useless moves in the game over all, it's actually horrendous. You wouldn't even use it in single player modes.
It's weaker than Pit's dsmash, slower to come out on the second hit (probably first hit too), and has a nice 40 extra frames of lag on top of it. Also does less damage than Pit's dsmash too.


Dash attack is kinda alright for what it does, but it's start up is kinda obscene. It's probably underrated though, if it was like 10 or less frames it would be pretty solid IMO.

I want frame 40 IASA that Marth's dash attack had in Melee plzzzz.

About down smash, it makes sense to see the first hit being weak because almost every forward-then-back down smash in this game has only the back hit being strong. What I don't like is the end lag that carried over from previous games and how little damage the first hit does. Pit's down smash is great (and frame 5), but look at Link's: I found it has a few pixels more range than Marth's, it does a boat load of damage (front is stronger than rear too), kills very well, comes out 3 frames slower than Marth but at the back hit it's almost caught up. Most importantly, it probably has about 20 frames less ending lag to where it's almost safe on shield (definitely safe on shield with back hit) and I've seen Links get 2 down smashes in a row at low percents.

To piss on Marth some more....it combos off of jab.

 

[Nowayitsj]

Lolwut? People actually raged at BK over the introduction of chicken fries? I can't even comprehend this lol.

As for possible Marth buffs, I just hope they buff him enough to make him not feel awkward. The lack of meaningful AC's and the slightly overnerfed landing lag could probably use some tweaking. A better jab wouldn't hurt either.

oh no not the introduction. I meant after bk stopped making chicken fries a long time ago a ton of ppl went Cray to get them back so we got it now, so was joking wed do the same to get old marth lol but regardless it is p funny xD when's the dlc btw? Or buffs and stuff

 

[Big O]

oh no not the introduction. I meant after bk stopped making chicken fries a long time ago a ton of ppl went Cray to get them back so we got it now, so was joking wed do the same to get old marth lol but regardless it is p funny xD when's the dlc btw? Or buffs and stuff

I see that makes a lot more sense. The Mewtwo DLC thing will launch near the end of this month. I think April 28th is the official date, although the patch will probably end up happening a little bit before then.