Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Phoenon]

I've never actually gotten my shield broken by blocking get-up attacks, usually being able to survive it and be able to grab them (I might be able to react with an Up Smash like blocking a ledge attack but haven't tried it yet).

Then again I never really use shield most of the time over spot dodges unless they're in the air throwing out attacks willy nilly so I can shield grab them (so they can feel the pain and utter despair I felt starting out in Smash).

http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash/v/3922856

10 minutes in, I'm the Marth, oh god this isn't even worth putting in the Video Analysis thread out of sheer embarrassment, I'd just love to know what I could have done differently both those matches besides that stupid air dodge mashing near the end that destroyed my last stock because of my own "panic button" fault

I know...a decentish amount, Mr. E, one named Maru I chat/play with on twitter.

Actual video footage of decent/good Marth play is almost next to none though unfortunately, makes it very hard to observe and study other Marth main's playstyle so I can incorporate a few things into my own to help out in the long run.

 

[Locuan]

i dont know but i have never seen a marth main in smash 4 besides myself leave a comment if you are a marth main or if you know one.

I moved your post to the Marth General since it's more suited to this thread. Anyways, welcome to Smashboards and the Marth Boards. There are quite a few Marth mains and you will be able to meet them here ^_^

Actual video footage of decent/good Marth play is almost next to none though unfortunately, makes it very hard to observe and study other Marth main's playstyle so I can incorporate a few things into my own to help out in the long run.

I had to merge your posts after moving r.f.m's thread here so it kinda looks weird but don't worry about it. Anyways, regarding video footage of good Marth play I would have to disagree with you. @ kj22 is an excellent Marth who is getting results in tournaments. For example, 13th out of 202 entrants TGC. He also posts a lot of videos on the Hero King's Council Video Thread.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Looks like I have had a pretty good day today in comparison to the rest of the week. Nothing bad happened and I had a free period in one of my classes.

 

[Quickhero]

@ JingleJangleJamil Eyyy you free today? I'd like to play a smash with you. :3

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

@ JingleJangleJamil Eyyy you free today? I'd like to play a smash with you. :3

Sorry I didn't see this earlier. I usually am playing smash at my friends place on Fridays (Which is why I didn't see this earlier), but on Saturday and Sunday I am free. I am also free on week days between around 3:30 PM- 7:00 PM EST.

 

[Phoenon]

Mr. E doing mad good in Final Round Doubles tourney, made it to Winners Finals before losing once, still in losers though and could move onto Grand Finals with just one more win.

http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios

aaaaaand the dream is dead.

 

[Phoenon]

Yeesh, feels like even if I take like only 10 or so hours off from playing I'm back to square one sucking and getting bodied by the simplest tactics and have to continue playing for hours just to get to the level I was playing at yesterday.

Like I lost to a Falco that just did down throw combos and dash attacks, help-me-cam, but maybe I'm just overthinking things and my movement just sucks, I don't know. I've always wanted to be some Smash 4 Marth player that at least someone would look up to to learn how to play like as dumb as that probably sounds but I get discouraged easily.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Phoenon I know how you feel man, I want to be that Marth that people will be like "I mained Marth because of the sick plays this guy pulled off" too. Also, I was and to an extent still am in your exact position. What I did is just learn via 10 minute timed matches for a while (I think 9 times, haha) with a person that's pretty skilled with Marth and just have matches with him/her. My person was nice and told me all the flaws I had and what I can do to fix them and after a little bit I finally managed to beat him once using the techniques he taught me and my Marth skills increased significantly.

I still have a lot of improvement open, and a lot of that improvement will be necessary for me to make it somewhere at EVO, but it significantly helps and I recommend you try it. At the very least, you'll have a bit more confidence and a nice person to talk too! I

 

[Foodies]

I find there are just days that I play horribly for no apparent reason. I usually just blame miniscule differences in wifi latency across connections. Plus whenever I get frustrated by getting hit by the dumbest things it causes me to get hit by even more dumb things. At that point it's time to take a break from the game for me :v

 

[Phoenon]

I'd love to find some other skilled Marth player that would have a long set of matches with me and actually give me advice on what I'm doing wrong if I actually knew someone like that.

Honestly today has just been terrible for me in general, I actually had to turn off the system because it was demoralizing me so much to almost the point of quitting completely, I need help pretty bad at Smash right now, I'm so tired of being "average" and "not that bad" that it's making me sick.

 

[Foodies]

Did you read the post I made on your matches against Mr. E? I listed a couple of things you could work on there. Also if you'd like we can play sometime and I can possibly give more advice to you.

 

[Zano]

I'd love to find some other skilled Marth player that would have a long set of matches with me and actually give me advice on what I'm doing wrong if I actually knew someone like that.

Honestly today has just been terrible for me in general, I actually had to turn off the system because it was demoralizing me so much to almost the point of quitting completely, I need help pretty bad at Smash right now, I'm so tired of being "average" and "not that bad" that it's making me sick.

it doesn't work that way.

You don't get above average or higher just wanting it or just playing. In all honestly, it takes way more than that and most players don't even realize it, especially if you don't have really good players offline to practice and learn from. Wifi only takes you so far for what it is, although in this game compared to brawl it's a bit more manageable I suppose, but I can feel a clear difference from online and offline.

Also, in this game, simple tactics are really effective, it's just the game we play. Compared to the last games where the depth of your character could really be brought out, it's not so much in this game as it's quite straightforward with what do to (as of right now at least).

Marth may not be the character for you if he honestly frustrates you to that point, he doesn't have much going for him in this game compared to before and requires you to play at your fullest all the time and pull off the hardest reads. As satisfying as that may be, you'll find it extremely difficult to do against more experienced players, and only being someone who started recently and I'm assuming started off this game, you're going to run into a lot of players that will generally outplay you.

The most important thing to remember tho, is that you are not the only player in the world trying to improve, everyone else is too. If you feel you aren't getting better, maybe you just need to realize what you're doing isn't the right approach and others are just simply achieving better results.

I hate sounding cruel but there are too many people that complain that they don't get better when the fault is simply their own or expect to get better out of nowhere if they just keep playing. If you can't find a way to deal with what you're doing wrong, you probably aren't cut out for competitive gaming, and there's nothing wrong with that, don't be something you can't, the stress isn't worth it, play at the point you have the most fun with.

 

[Phoenon]

Did you read the post I made on your matches against Mr. E? I listed a couple of things you could work on there. Also if you'd like we can play sometime and I can possibly give more advice to you.

That would be nice, just send me a request since I don't know what your NNID is.

As for the above post, I appreciate all the input, I'm not planning on quitting competitive gaming as much time as I've put into it. My main problem is actually transferring from games like Blazblue, Guilty Gear, etc to Smash which is honestly pretty big for me. Smash 4 isn't my first game, though is it the first Smash game I've ever decided to take seriously, and I'll keep playing Marth because he's the most fun to me, and Mr. E and other players like kj can clearly make him work so there's no reason I couldn't.

I'll endure everything, I do get stressed but usually if I take a break for like 30 minutes or so I'll be perfectly fine and ready to play again, though I do need to work on getting less frustrated as it throws me off tremendously when I do as hard as it is not to just get crazy annoyed with some people's..."playstyles".

I'll keep playing, I need to learn different matchups and dealing with the other opponents options still. It's embarrassing to admit but I have such a strange problem with grabs and punishing moves in Smash, since your character won't just turn around by itself so you can throw out a crouching jab to interrupt something like in Blazblue or whatever, It's a different world for me, directional influence and out of shield options and all, I just need to get used to it...and some advice wouldn't hurt either as I know I could be doing a few things differently with Marth.

 

[Quickhero]

Good luck Emblem Lord in the tournament! :D

 

[Superbat]

TRUU Nairo will beat him though. No disrespect meant tho. The DUNKS Really unfortunate that he had to face Nairo though. Hope he does good in losers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If I beat Nairo that means the game is degenerate. I should NOT beat a better player, because if I do that means the game is not competitive at all. He plays more, trains harder and more often. He deserved his win. Lost to a member of LoF named Hackoru. Same crew as NAKAT, False and Keitaro. Again, better player that plays way more. So im fine with it. 15th out of 106 people and I haven't used Marth in tournament in almost 2 months. I'm content with these results. Especially because I got to play custom Marth on stream.

 

[The_Cardinal]

If I beat Nairo that means the game is degenerate. I should NOT beat a better player, because if I do that means the game is not competitive at all. He plays more, trains harder and more often. He deserved his win. Lost to a member of LoF named Hackoru. Same crew as NAKAT, False and Keitaro. Again, better player that plays way more. So im fine with it. 15th out of 106 people and I haven't used Marth in tournament in almost 2 months. I'm content with these results. Especially because I got to play custom Marth on stream.

I got to see you play on stream today. I thought you played well and I was rooting for you very hard although I'm not a Marth main. You also helped put a more public face on custom Marth. Stream chat went bonkers. Congrats on your great placing!

 

[Emblem Lord]

That was the goal. Just to show what he can do and to inspire my brothers and sisters. My first match was custom Marth vs custom Ike. Did you catch it?

 

[The_Cardinal]

I did actually and I enjoyed it quite a bit. I was actually surprised the custom Ike didn't use close combat since I heard that was the favored side b custom for him. Aside from that match and the one against Nairo, did you play any other matches on stream? I didn't catch the whole tournament.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah just those two. The match vs Nairo was what I expected though. Like, ZSS is just a better char. Her neutral is hard to challenge. I baited alot of grabs and punished, but once she had momentum it was her game and she escapes momentum much more safely then Marth does.

I played vs two CF's off stream including my best friend. I think custom Marth beats CF 6-4. I played a Diddy from LoF, same crew as False and NAKAT. Lost, but thats fine as he was stronger and plays consistently with stronger players. But I turned alot of heads with my set-ups and combos. False also gave props after my match with the Ike player. Played a custom Robin as well. I also feel that match is even in a custom environment.

I talked to the Ike after the match. Helped him out a bit with which customs to pick. There was also a Marth that talked to me and asked my thoughts about his customs.

That's what its all about. The community and the growth.

 

[The_Cardinal]

Oh, you played a custom Robin? Which specials was the Robin player using? It's actually ironic you mention this because I said earlier today in the Robin boards that outside of Raziek (whom I believe you played extensively against for your Journey of the Star Lord project), I haven't seen, let alone hear, of any custom Robin play in a competitive setting.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I am so sorry, but I have no idea what tournament you guys are talking about. @ Emblem Lord what did you place in the tournament? I wonder if I can be like kj22 and you playing in tournaments and place well using Marth. One day I will get time to play in tournaments! Maybe during Spring Break (probably not though) I will play in one, but most likely I will play in my first tournament in the Summer.

 

[The_Cardinal]

I am so sorry, but I have no idea what tournament you guys are talking about. @ Emblem Lord what did you place in the tournament? I wonder if I can be like kj22 and you playing in tournaments and place well using Marth. One day I will get time to play in tournaments! Maybe during Spring Break (probably not though) I will play in one, but most likely I will play in my first tournament in the Summer.

KTAR XII regional. CLASHTournaments has the entire tournament uploaded on their twitch channel already if you're interested.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I do not believe he used anything besides Speed Thunder. Faster travel and charge speed, but he gets no hit confirm combos. I agree with that as Robins best footsie tools leave him wide open. Marth can easily dash in then SH spot dodge or roll on reaction. So Robin gives up reward for a more consistent neutral.

Oh, yeah he counter picked me with Greninja, but he took me to lylat which imo is not good for the shinobis shuriken game and sure enough the stage tilting caused his shurikens to get blocked and I netted easy grab confirms into CS for punishes.

 

[The_Cardinal]

Us Robins were also thinking Speed thunder was the best custom. Apparently, according to Raziek at least, it can still ko sometime despite the decreased stun disabling follow-ups. It's good to hear from the perspective of someone else though who mains a different character. This info helps. Thanks.

 

[Locuan]

Those are great results @ Emblem Lord . Where the matches recorded? It would be great to watch them if they are. I had a tournament today myself so I was unable to watch the stream.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It was streamed by Clash Tournaments and Chibo uploads EVERYTHING eventually so no worries.

You can see me vs Ike and then watch Nairo obliterate me.

 

[Vipermoon]

Those are great results @ Emblem Lord . Where the matches recorded? It would be great to watch them if they are. I had a tournament today myself so I was unable to watch the stream.

Which means you can watch them on the CT twitch account's past broadcasts. Which is what I'm about to do

Edit: EL you showed off Marth's customs well. 2nd match: it's Nairo, so don't sweat it. I think you played the right way against him/ZSS. I love/hate the commentators for the occasional wrong information and for constantly getting the names of Marth's customs wrong.

 

[Phoenon]

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/v/3929760

3:38:10 for Ike vs. EmblemLord Marth
4:52:30 for Nairo ZSS vs. EmblemLord Marth

Since we're all on this topic anyways I figured I'd post this here.

 

[r.f.m]

i mean 3ds version

 

[Shaya]

Won a tournament today. Did a fair bit of Marth representation (I used Sheik in winner's finals because my opponent was being COCKY ~ actually it's more like customs fox is literally 'chase the fox until you get up smashed' and I could not be ****ed, I'll make you chase me tyvm). Used Marth in GF in one match and clutched a victory with the power of RAGE; Reverse Up Tilt and fsmash tippered the air dodge to kill at 43%. Marth vs good characters though... oh my god; fast fall a fair on an expected ledge jump/get up and whiff, get jumped over into them landing into an fsmash before I could shield... whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Customless Marth is ... tipper fsmash focused only and I feel like I'm just mindgaming the opponent the entire match by using not-as-punishable-but-still-terribly-punishable-moves and then being ready to fsmash that one opportune time. Otherwise lots of untippered fair gameplay, including quite a few stocks taken by true comboing into tippers.

Will look into your sets soon EL, looking forward to them.


Unfortunately no videos, but I made a lot of bank, the official nintendo guide for the game and someone gave me a GC adapter too (I finally got a WiiU last thursday~) [time to get my ZSS death combos dowwwwwwwn~]

*Smart way to land yourself in hospital, would not recommend.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The set vs Ike will make you happy. The set vs Nairo will make you sad.

However, I didn't even use most of the stuff I have been training so I still have a ways to go. Not alot of trump set-ups or air trap set-ups in CS.

So I'm excited because I know I still have alot of room to grow.

 

[kj22]

Reading these posts make me smile. I'm glad people have the drive to improve, now you just need to channel that drive efficiently.

For newer player trying to improve, being absolutely conscious of what you're doing and why during the match is a very important skill to develop. Many people, myself included, will go on autopilot during matches and just do things, not actually thinking about what's happened and what the oppenent is doing.
Recording replays and watching them for what you did wrong AND right is a great step. Think about why what you did in that situation worked/didn't and remember that next time you play. Don't just forget or else you'll be stuck at a plateau, remember your mistakes and good plays.

Getting your video critiqued is helpful as well ince it gives you different perspectives but it doesn't replace the need for your own self-analyzing skills.

If you're unsure about anything, ask. Asking questions is an important part of learning, you don't live in a bubble we're all interconnected.

During the match, being patient and vigilant is paramount. You do not get to press buttons like diddy/shiek/mario, that's not the character you play. A lot of thought has to go into each and every swing otherwise punishment awaits. You have way less margin for error. This can be extremely frustrating, especially at lower and mid-levels of play, where you audibly hear your opponent mashing the controller and getting better results then you trying to press a button to get a single move out...

Marth is not a beginner's character. If you win w/him vs someone majority of the time you're a a better player then them, especially as the opponents skill level increases. This means that when you fight on for glory/with your friends and you're losing alot, don't take it simply as "I'm bad why can't I beat my friends shiek" but as a challenge that hey, I know my character has limits but and want to overcome them, and the day I start beating him/her consistently with marth I know that I've improved and am a better player.

Another factor to keep in mind is that this is the 4/5 smash game. Some people have been playing smash most of their lives. while mechanics may have changed, a lot of the mental aspects have not, so many many many people are experienced in that regard and versus marth, whose pretty much been a bread and butter kind of character who's gotten plenty of exposure and people know how to fight. If you're completely new to the scene don't be so down on yourself, just realize what you've stepped into.

On the flip side, smash 4 is the easiest smash game to get into and it's new, so you're not too far behind vs other smash games.

A lot of "being good" comes with experience, that's the common way to improve, though some people are just naturally talented. However playing 10000000 matches doesn't automatically mean you're good, the real question is did you learn anything from each of those and apply them to subsequent matches?

 

[Locuan]

I watched your sets @ Emblem Lord . Against the Ike player, you missed a jab lock opportunity after Ike missed the tech on your Dash Assault. We need more of this :
http://gfycat.com/CheeryGloomyBat

In all seriousness it was a good set. The Ike player did not seem to know what Crescent Slash was capable of as well and risked too many grabs close the the ledge. On the contrary, Nairo played around it perfectly and those moments he did get grabbed he was able to DI out of it at higher percents. It seems his DI was upwards and inwards or upwards and away? Do you recall? Also, watching Nairo play is amazing though. That setup from the paralyzer where he seemed to run away wow. I had never seen that before, I guess I need to watch more videos.

On another note, it was clear that the commentators did not know much about Marth. There were quite a few incorrect statements.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's easy to not know anything about a character you never see.

Nairo knew how to DI it, I still hit him but I didn't kill him. Though I don't recall I ever had him at the ledge at kill percents. He DIed up and towards me which from my understanding thus far is the best way to DI it.

I got hella use out of it though in every match. It is a must for Marth to break into being a consistent competitive char in the customs environment.

As I said I played two CF's in tourney and normally that match is even but with CS risk vs reward is much more equal and I think Marth gets a slight advantage.

 

[Shaya]

I would say your main issue EL against Nairo was freezing up in neutral.
You can't be still or make repetitive non-pressuring movement (empty stationary sh ffs) against him. He makes a lot of opponents respect him due to how technically and reactively he plays but the moment you are in this "I'll wait for the punish" mindset he's going to mow you down.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How is waiting for a punish, freezing up? One indicates stratagem the other means literally that I did not know what to do which wasn't the case.

Semantics, however as the result is the same. I lost. Still, I'm not too concerned. I don't play people on his level regularly, but that is easily fixed.

It's all about the level ups and I appreciate the insight.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

@ Locuan Nice Profile pic. Vegeta is my 3rd favorite DBZ character. Future Trunks is #2 and Bardock is #1 for me.

 

[Phoenon]

Gonna need to replace this Wii U Pro Controller with a Gamecube controller eventually, I'm getting way too many problems from it nowadays.

Like...it literally pivots me accidentally sometimes. It's a thing that happens whenever I release the left stick to neutral, involving such things as Grabs, Neutral B recovery which sometimes just pivots me further off the edge to my death, and even pivots my recovery up B sometimes. This is a problem that will hinder me greatly unless it's fixed.

 

[Ulevo]

@ Emblem Lord and anyone else willing to chime in.

What's your take on the Lucario match up. Lucario boards suck and you guys are all Mario talk at the moment. Who do you think wins? What does Marth need to do in order to win? What does Lucario need to do in order to win?