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Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

Random4811

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I like to go super deep, which is why I don't run CS at this time. However, I'm seeing the uses for DA and CS more. Iai has great kill power and stuff. And its shorter.

So is Dolphin Slash's vertical KB a known thing? I just killed Fox vertically with DS. Never seen that before.
It was really weird.
 

Xisin

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im not even sure what you mean by vertical kb, i cant seem to get it to result in a vertical ko.
 

Shaya

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It's hitting someone in the reverse hitbox of it... and I don't think it hit's properly behind him in reverse like in Melee/Brawl.
So it's like... the arching of his back or something?
 

kj22

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It's hitting someone in the reverse hitbox of it... and I don't think it hit's properly behind him in reverse like in Melee/Brawl.
So it's like... the arching of his back or something?
shayyyyya I need your wisdom (read: critique) to boost my marth ;<
 
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kj22

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Shaya

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Well one short thing is, just from the Link set.

You get your hit confirms, just dash grab it. Too much risk going for DBs or whatever for the most part.
Especially at low percent you can get tipper fair AC'd into grab usually (especially a slower character like Link).

Down Tilt hit confirms should be dash grabs only, basically.

Fast fall your full hop nairs a bit to AC unless you're planning to bair/fair landing every time (I think there are holes in your nair usage not abused here)

Chaining someone off stage at low-ish percent you should probably be looking for the near guaranteed free counter/up-b on their recoveries, or even moving towards them for the footstool jump (or you can dair them into a footstool jump).

Against link, short hop air dodges are pretty solid, you aren't going to be punishing boomerang from Link any other way.
 

ArikadoSD

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Shoutouts to Jose the Marth that I just faced on for glory. his marth is so on-point. Mr.E-level kind of ****, jesus ****.

Arikado here, the sheik. I SD'd a lot, wasn't playing right and all that, not to be a john but I'm drunk LOL (it's saint patrick's eve in ireland sooo)

we should DEFINITELY play properly sometime if u ever read this or if someone knows who he is. his marth was so good oh my lord. I dream of becoming as good as him with Marth seeing as he's my secondary right after sheik, and I play him a lot.
 
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Spoice

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So why is it that everybody believes, just because he had a couple nerfs, Marth is now one of the worst characters in the game?
This is mostly stemming from a recent tier list that was published a little while back in Japan,and while I know the game is early, and nothing is finalized, it can be taken as an indicator as to what the competitive scene thinks of these characters, and I think it's ridiculous.
I don't see what makes Marth so bad to use in this game, sure his attacks are a bit slower, and his sword has a shorter range, that mean he's non viable? It sadly seems to be the case with most people.
What do you guys think of where Marth should be on the tier list? I personally believe that he is a least an upper mid character, maybe even a low high tier. I'll leave the debate to you guys for now.

https://game8.jp/items/297696 - recent tier list I mentioned.
 

Shaya

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Okay, so let's assume for a second the people who look at that tier list and are shocked don't actually know much about the character.
For one, his range wasn't nerfed on any move bar Forward Smash/Dtilt.
In fact in a lot of cases (noticeably his aerials), their range was BUFFED.
This listing shouldn't be surprising to anyone else, even if they think he deserves a bit higher (I doubt they think it's more than a lower-middle tier area).

But he's still terrible.
He definitely fits the bill for a low tier character in this game, but that may be a bit because we can look at how extremely terrible Lucina is and think "Marths just not that much better", although he is.

These are without customs either, which Marth does get some boons that may help his deficiencies (issues with hit confirms / kill confirms / grab game).

He was structurally guttered in every single way bar sword range. Every single way you could possibly think of.
Except his weight, and he got to keep his walk speed as no.1 in the game (although while all other movement options seem faster in this game, walking seems roughly similar speeds).

Grab range, damage, dodge timings, auto cancels, ending lag, aerial mobility, hitboxes, start up, etc etc

Marth got a similar treatment to what Falcon did for Brawl. All it would take is a few numbers to make him good again/solid, but Sakurai has decided to not have this happen.
The main factor/issue is that Marth does not have a single bread and butter tool left. He doesn't have any 'gel' to his kit, Fair, nair, dancing blade and down tilt are all bad moves in the grand scheme of things and he's left with nothing else compensated. MK was also heavily nerfed, but he retained two core tools in dash grab/dash attack (that are some of the best in the game, guaranteed) and this allows him to compete.
 
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Foodies

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...he looks better visually :v

Agreed though. I feel like I have to work for every single one of my hits while most opponents can string a bunch of moves together after getting the first. Rip.
 
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JingleJangleJamil

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Things like Marth's nerfs in this game and changing Fox and Falco's voices are things that make me question Sakurai's judgement. I also get the same from clone characters. As much as people say that clone characters are not taking up character slots and are just a bonus, that does not change a thing. It is not about character slots, it is about TIME. The time spent making Lucina and Dark Pit clone characters could have easily been used to make one of them (Preferably Lucina) a unique character. I don't know why Sakurai wasted time changing characters who did not need to be changed instead of making more characters who were bad in Brawl good and making EVERY newcomer at least somewhat unique. Think about it, Wolf and Lucas who were pretty different from Fox/Falco and Ness were cut in favor of Lucina and Dark Pit who are barely different from Marth and Pit.
 

Quickhero

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@ JingleJangleJamil JingleJangleJamil You do know that making 2 clones take SIGNIFICANTLY LESS TIME than making a separate character, right? I would rather Lucina not be in this game period since she is just a botched up version of the character she truly is (she sounds arrogant as hell in this game too and it pisses me off) and the little time spent on making Lucina could've been spent on making sure that balance changes were proper and Marth could've been more toned or at least make Little Mac being able to single jump into Battlefield platforms (I love the excuse Sakurai gave to nerf Little Mac too) and it's just silly.

Not like I would expect Sakurai to do that either, though. It's still EASILY the most preferred things over Lucina/clones in general.
 

Foodies

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Dessert is good :U

Lucina was supposed to just be a costume, don't think her inclusion affected Marth's gameplay changes at all/they probably would've done it anyway.
 
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JingleJangleJamil

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@ JingleJangleJamil JingleJangleJamil You do know that making 2 clones take SIGNIFICANTLY LESS TIME than making a separate character, right? I would rather Lucina not be in this game period since she is just a botched up version of the character she truly is (she sounds arrogant as hell in this game too and it pisses me off) and the little time spent on making Lucina could've been spent on making sure that balance changes were proper and Marth could've been more toned or at least make Little Mac being able to single jump into Battlefield platforms (I love the excuse Sakurai gave to nerf Little Mac too) and it's just silly.

Not like I would expect Sakurai to do that either, though. It's still EASILY the most preferred things over Lucina/clones in general.
You are probably right about making two clones taking less time than a separate character, but it still would have left them with more time to make a unique character. I have not played FE: Awakening, but if things are the way you say Lucina is I would probably be pissed about her not being represented properly in smash.

Dessert is good :U

Lucina was supposed to just be a costume, don't think her inclusion affected Marth's gameplay changes at all/they probably would've done it anyway.
Nobody is saying she effected Marth's gameplay. I am saying that Lucina and Dark Pit effected the overall character roster.
 

Shaya

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Nobody is saying she effected Marth's gameplay.
I am.
They decided they'd have Lucina in the game and that she would be an "easier" version of Marth.
So they made both characters under the same guise/goal during development.

Alternatively or additively
"Well, Fire Emblem is officially MAINSTREAM, now they don't need to be over tuned to get people to notice them!"
 
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Phoenon

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Dessert is good :U

Lucina was supposed to just be a costume, don't think her inclusion affected Marth's gameplay changes at all/they probably would've done it anyway.
I honestly would have preferred Lucina as a costume with voice set included, at least she'd still have the threat of the tipper mechanic
 

JingleJangleJamil

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I am.
They decided they'd have Lucina in the game and that she would be an "easier" version of Marth.
So they made both characters under the same guise/goal during development.

Alternatively or additively
"Well, Fire Emblem is officially MAINSTREAM, now they don't need to be over tuned to get people to notice them!"
My b. I kind of just read your post and forgot what I had just read. As much as I respect Sakurai for putting in so much work into smash series, he is too stubborn and makes questionable decisions with balancing and the character roster with the clones in this game.
 

Phoenon

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Fighting Falcon players is suffering/slightly depressing, I'm sure I'll learn to deal with dash grabs and be able to successfully punish them after eventually, today is not that day.
 

Foodies

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CF is annoying since he carries momentum really well. If he's spamming dash grabs just time a jab and it should be able to either stop him from grabbing you or break the grab since there is no grab armor in this game. Of course if you mistime the jab he gets the dash grab for free. Fun stuff.
 

Phoenon

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Never really thought of using Marth's jab before, I just assumed his forward tilt and even down tilt were superior all around.

I'll try it though, it's hard to stop myself from to just jump and spot dodge constantly against Falcon players when the players themselves seem to believe their hearts will explode if they stop moving or going for a dash grab for even a second.

Crank: The Character
 
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kj22

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CF is annoying since he carries momentum really well. If he's spamming dash grabs just time a jab and it should be able to either stop him from grabbing you or break the grab since there is no grab armor in this game. Of course if you mistime the jab he gets the dash grab for free. Fun stuff.
Or just tipper fsmash!;D
Jk if he's in kill percents and you know for sure he's coming up smash should beat it out/grab armor break

All other times jab is good.

Now if he's dash to shield grabbing...pivot grab him
 

JingleJangleJamil

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Unrelated to Marth(IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT MY PERSONAL LIFE JUST IGNORE THIS PART OF MY POST): So far I have had a terrible week. On Monday nothing really happened, on Tuesday I found out the girl I like at school started dating someone, on Wednesday I decided to play smash after not playing for like two weeks only to find myself playing like crap, today one of my teachers made us have to do a crap ton of work as punishment and people who were not done by the end of the period had to stay after school to finish it. I really hope tomorrow things will be better...It has been a while since I have been actually pissed about things that have to do with me. I'm sorry, but I just had to vent to help me feel better. Maybe I am just being over dramatic from not having to deal with irl problems in a while.

Fighting Falcon players is suffering/slightly depressing, I'm sure I'll learn to deal with dash grabs and be able to successfully punish them after eventually, today is not that day.
As Marth I don't have to much trouble playing against Falcon. All I have to do is space them out and hit them before they hit me. I never really use Marth's jab, but d tilt and retreating fair is one of my most useful options against him.
 

kj22

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As a brawl marth main, I vehemently detest Phoenon's avi >.>
only time I looked at mk that cute was when he was about to get grab released to daired
 

kj22

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hmmm why not pick luigi back up/secondary?
I think metaknight's right where he belongs in this game ;P

Melee marth is extremely fun. at my campus, melee is THE smash game, so I play it often in my spare time. That was back when his fsmash could cover every option, including rolls <3
 

Locuan

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hmmm why not pick luigi back up/secondary?
I think metaknight's right where he belongs in this game ;P

Melee marth is extremely fun. at my campus, melee is THE smash game, so I play it often in my spare time. That was back when his fsmash could cover every option, including rolls <3
I love both Luigi and MK actually. I had a lot of fun playing both characters. In fact, I made a guide way back in 2008 for beginners on Brawl Luigi. And MK is still incredibly fun in this game. However, I just like Marth/Lucina more :p

Melee is incredible. I really like Melee and Smash 4 so I'm at an odd position when those Melee/Smash 4 debates come up in the Puerto Rican community jaja.
 

kj22

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I love both Luigi and MK actually. I had a lot of fun playing both characters. In fact, I made a guide way back in 2008 for beginners on Brawl Luigi. And MK is still incredibly fun in this game. However, I just like Marth/Lucina more :p

Melee is incredible. I really like Melee and Smash 4 so I'm at an odd position when those Melee/Smash 4 debates come up in the Puerto Rican community jaja.
What draws you to marth?(:

ooo took a look at it, pretty good, especially for 2008! I also have respect for people who make guides...I know a lot of effort goes into making them.

hahaha that must be an awkward position...what do the melee players say/common arguments about smash 4 and vice versa?
 

Locuan

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What draws you to marth?(:

ooo took a look at it, pretty good, especially for 2008! I also have respect for people who make guides...I know a lot of effort goes into making them.

hahaha that must be an awkward position...what do the melee players say/common arguments about smash 4 and vice versa?
Marth? Well when Melee came out I did not know anything about FE. But, I really liked the idea of sword users in Smash. Link had projectiles, which did not suit my play style at the time. Once I unlocked Marth it was amazing. Getting a tipper, the sound of his sword attacks, it felt amazing playing as the character. Then I learned of FE and played the first version that was released to the US (FE7). And while Marth wasn't playable in that game, it solidified my love for the series and my use of Marth in Melee. At present, it's a combination of both being an FE fan and utilizing a sword wielder in a fighting game.

The Melee players in Puerto Rico have argument that basically boil down to one thing, not wanting to adapt to a new game. For example, there's one thing I don't like from Smash 4 that I love in Melee. Blocking a getup attack meant you could follow up reliably in Melee, in Smash 4 it can break your shield, so now I'm limited in my follow up options after making a read. I have to stand further away from my opponents in most cases which usually means I mostly end up using dash grab after their get-up attack; unless it's with Marcina where against most characters I can F-smash, disjoints and whatnot.
 
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r.f.m

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i dont know but i have never seen a marth main in smash 4 besides myself leave a comment if you are a marth main or if you know one.
 
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