Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

The patch was for April 15th, the same day those of us who bought and registered both games get Mewtwo.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

Calling notable Marth/Lucina (and probably Robin) buffs in the patch.
Last patch seemed to heavily coincide with the shi-gaming japanese tier list.

Anyone ready for an auto cancel on maybe one of our aerials and suddenly we're [overpowered] Gucci?

Put_Brawl_Marf_In_Smash_4

The days of Shulk being best sword kid need to end with the one nair to rule them all.

 

[Random4811]

If Marth gets anything but buffs in a balance patched, I'd be pissed. He doesnt need any nerfs. Honestly, I dont even want his overtly good fair from Brawl/Melee. I'd just like there to be hella lot less landing lag, or a decent auto cancel. Would autocanceling his fair between 10-12 be so bad? or reducing the landing lag from like 18 frames to 13 or 14? Like, do that and make Dancing Blades work, and Marth is easily a good character again.

 

[Emblem Lord]

None of besides Shaya realize how easy it is to make Marth broken.

Sword users by their nature are not good for game balance in a game with non sword users.

 

[Vipermoon]

I can ask for 100 changes that I want to be made. But if they can implement these I will be content:

Fair autocancels similar to Bair, the timing currently is too strict for something like Fair.

Nair autocancels similar to Uair, I think this is not asking too much. So either you fast fall and get lag or you autocancel through a tight, slow falling window. It's at the least what that move needs. And bring back Dair's autocancel from Brawl/Melee while we're at it, it's too tight for a move that was already nerfed every other way.

Decrease landing lag, we already have decreased landing lag on Dair, Bair, and Up B. They can decrease those some more if they want. But Uair, Nair, and especially Fair needs less landing lag, if you compare those landing lags to other characters with similar moves (who are also lucky to have really nice autocancel windows) it's embarrassing that King Marth (he's in his King Marth outfit, previous games was his Prince design) got so old that he can't even land properly let alone do other things as fast. 3 frames less landing lag on at least uair, fair, and nair than what it currently is sounds reasonable.

Dancing blade 1, and maybe every other dancing blade, needs less lag.

Also guys, no need for range buffs because Marth's range and especially disjoint was buffed from Brawl. Good enough for me.

We can keep our super laggy Utilt, Usmash, Dsmash, jab, and everything else as long as we get the stuff up here^^^.

 

[Random4811]

I can ask for 100 changes that I want to be made. But if they can implement these I will be content:

Fair autocancels similar to Bair, the timing currently is too strict for something like Fair.

Nair autocancels similar to Uair, I think this is not asking too much. So either you fast fall and get lag or you autocancel through a tight, slow falling window. It's at the least what that move needs. And bring back Dair's autocancel from Brawl/Melee while we're at it, it's too tight for a move that was already nerfed every other way.

Decrease landing lag, we already have decreased landing lag on Dair, Bair, and Up B. They can decrease those some more if they want. But Uair, Nair, and especially Fair needs less landing lag, if you compare those landing lags to other characters with similar moves (who are also lucky to have really nice autocancel windows) it's embarrassing that King Marth (he's in his King Marth outfit, previous games was his Prince design) got so old that he can't even land properly let alone do other things as fast. 3 frames less landing lag on at least uair, fair, and nair than what it currently is sounds reasonable.

Dancing blade 1, and maybe every other dancing blade, needs less lag.

Also guys, no need for range buffs because Marth's range and especially disjoint was buffed from Brawl. Good enough for me.

We can keep our super laggy Utilt, Usmash, Dsmash, jab, and everything else as long as we get the stuff up here^^^.

I agree with you pretty much. Utilt is fine. Its slow nature is kinda good for catching landings, it can combo into itself and lead to a basically free grab. No range buffs are needed at all, other than grab range.

However fair really needs a decent AC and less landing lag. If Uair had less lag, it'd have better trap setups and even more combos, which would be /awesome./ Shiek's got 10 frames of landing lag on fair, and can AC it pretty easily. Why can't we have something simular? It'd give us an approach. Like, a good one.

Also, what is the AC window for bair?

 

[Vipermoon]

I agree with you pretty much. Utilt is fine. Its slow nature is kinda good for catching landings, it can combo into itself and lead to a basically free grab. No range buffs are needed at all, other than grab range.

However fair really needs a decent AC and less landing lag. If Uair had less lag, it'd have better trap setups and even more combos, which would be /awesome./ Shiek's got 10 frames of landing lag on fair, and can AC it pretty easily. Why can't we have something simular? It'd give us an approach. Like, a good one.

Also, what is the AC window for bair?

Utilt can still lead to grabs and other traps if it had Brawl (frame 39) or Melee (32) ending. But it certainly doesn't combo into itself (not even the back hit into the front hit, I tried). See at frame 42 ending for such a move that comes out so fast, not hitting with it or hitting a shield is extremely punished.

Except the large characters, every character pretty much has less grab range in this game. Unless Marth had it reduced more than other characters with frame 7 grabs, which I can't say he was, I think his grab is fine. I looked at it close-up in training and when at least his fingers go through the opponent is when it registers as a grab. Sounds fair to me. Honestly, his grab range looks large compared to many characters in this game.

Bair ends at 39 and ACs on 32. I'm pretty sure that's identical to Brawl and Melee. Except we have less landing lag in Smash 4.

 

[Quickhero]

It's okay to talk about perceived buffs. (My personal opinion is either an almost lagless n-air or slightly reduced lag on every aerial, f-smash, and I'd love a slight improvement of u-tilt even though it's already great just because I really want it to have legit combos) Just don't go TOO far with it.

Sakurai likely will only listen to community outcry and thus ignore Marth, maybe Sakurai will just go for slight buff/nerfs like 1.04 which I'm all for; however, I have a growing fear that it will grow to extreme as hell buff and nerfs that will change the meta-game completely when it's actually fairly healthy right now.

If this game has patch notes like League I might legit quit playing this game remotely competitively.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's okay to talk about perceived buffs. (My personal opinion is either an almost lagless n-air or slightly reduced lag on every aerial, f-smash, and I'd love a slight improvement of u-tilt even though it's already great just because I really want it to have legit combos) Just don't go TOO far with it.

Sakurai likely will only listen to community outcry and thus ignore Marth, maybe Sakurai will just go for slight buff/nerfs like 1.04 which I'm all for; however, I have a growing fear that it will grow to extreme as hell buff and nerfs that will change the meta-game completely when it's actually fairly healthy right now.

If this game has patch notes like League I might legit quit playing this game remotely competitively.

Yeah they really need to not mess with the game too much. Buff the characters that they think don't have the numbers to match up with others and don't nerf the characters that have been winning tourneys for the most part. But I'm curious on why you say patch notes are bad?

 

[Quickhero]

I'm curious on why you say patch notes are bad?

I should've put League's instead of League so you could've understood my post, my bad.

I meant League's patch notes specifically because they oftentimes ridiculously buff average characters and they overly nerf others the minute something is "OP" about said champion. Yes, there are some champions where balancing is super hard to do, (Kassadin) but there are others where the characters are just nerfed in places that really shouldn't have happened. (Massively nerfing Fizz's W at one time even though he wasn't that bad) It causes a huge cycle where the meta is almost always shifting because they don't try to create a healthy meta-game, but rather an ever-changing one.

I suppose it's the key of their success, but this does not work for fighting games. We NEED a standard, and we can't have massive changes that make other characters top tier and others really low because of Sakurai going to the extreme rather than going with the minimum. Letting the meta evolve is a good thing, and patch notes should be given IF characters could use a little bit of minor buffing/nerfing, (as well as stupid glitches/exploits like Fox's infinite jab "combo") as it will prevent the meta from just completely changing but actually evolve into something better.

Tl;dr: Patch notes are good, but only if they are minor and not forcing the meta-game drastically. Minor buffs/nerfs and the removal of stupid glitches/(easy) infinites are great, since it means the meta-game can still naturally evolve while still being healthy.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Marth getting buffed would not be good for the metagame Shaya. You know this.

I'm not too keen on Marth getting buffs. That said I think the meta is already kinda ****ed so eh w/e.

What do you mean by it would not be good for the metagame? Would he be too good or too different? I don't really see a problem with just making Marth good again. I kind of agree that the metagame right now is ****ed because nobody can just decide on one damn set of rules. For this patch I honestly don't even care what they nerf (besides nerfing Sonic and Ness) I just want them to buff characters who need it and I think most of us can agree Marth needs it.

None of besides Shaya realize how easy it is to make Marth broken.

Sword users by their nature are not good for game balance in a game with non sword users.

Would you say he was broken in Brawl? I think all it would take is to make Marth like he was in Brawl to make him good, but not good enough to be broken.

I can ask for 100 changes that I want to be made. But if they can implement these I will be content:

Fair autocancels similar to Bair, the timing currently is too strict for something like Fair.

Nair autocancels similar to Uair, I think this is not asking too much. So either you fast fall and get lag or you autocancel through a tight, slow falling window. It's at the least what that move needs. And bring back Dair's autocancel from Brawl/Melee while we're at it, it's too tight for a move that was already nerfed every other way.

Decrease landing lag, we already have decreased landing lag on Dair, Bair, and Up B. They can decrease those some more if they want. But Uair, Nair, and especially Fair needs less landing lag, if you compare those landing lags to other characters with similar moves (who are also lucky to have really nice autocancel windows) it's embarrassing that King Marth (he's in his King Marth outfit, previous games was his Prince design) got so old that he can't even land properly let alone do other things as fast. 3 frames less landing lag on at least uair, fair, and nair than what it currently is sounds reasonable.

Dancing blade 1, and maybe every other dancing blade, needs less lag.

Also guys, no need for range buffs because Marth's range and especially disjoint was buffed from Brawl. Good enough for me.

We can keep our super laggy Utilt, Usmash, Dsmash, jab, and everything else as long as we get the stuff up here^^^.

Reading this post I have to say that I completely agree with this. You guys can just forget my previous post about what buffs I want Marth to get.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is a character that by his nature, if you make him good other chars will become invalidated and be unplayable at high level. Melee and Brawl have shown this. You cannot give someone a disjointed hitbox with kill confirms, high damage hit-confirms, high mobility and some of the best normals in the game with little commitment.

It doesnt work. Look at Zero and Karas in TvC. Dante in MvC3. Vergil in UMvC3.

Swords just don't work when you try to make them good.

Of course he was broken in Brawl. You think he was fair and balanced?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Marth is a character that by his nature, if you make him good other chars will become invalidated and be unplayable at high level. Melee and Brawl have shown this. You cannot give someone a disjointed hitbox with kill confirms, high damage hit-confirms, high mobility and some of the best normals in the game with little commitment.

It doesnt work. Look at Zero and Karas in TvC. Dante in MvC3. Vergil in UMvC3.

Swords just don't work when you try to make them good.

Of course he was broken in Brawl. You think he was fair and balanced?

Well I had always been under the impression MK was the only broken character in Brawl. I did not play Brawl competitively. Do you have any ideas on what can be buffed without making him broken? I think @ Vipermoon has some great ideas.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He was ******** in Brawl. MK was just that much MORE ********.

Honestly the only way to really buff him without making other characters worthless is to buff them too. Any buff to fair will pretty much throw the metagame out of whack. The move has too much potential to dominate footsies if you reduce the landing recovery. A buff to jab won't upset things. A buff to Dancing Blade would hurt other chars alot as shown in Brawl. Buffing nair would be a better way to make him better without hurting other chars viability. Same for Uair.

idk the idea of buffed Marth AND Crescent Slash grab combos seems a bit much.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

He was ******** in Brawl. MK was just that much MORE ********.

Honestly the only way to really buff him without making other characters worthless is to buff them too. Any buff to fair will pretty much throw the metagame out of whack. The move has too much potential to dominate footsies if you reduce the landing recovery. A buff to jab won't upset things. A buff to Dancing Blade would hurt other chars alot as shown in Brawl. Buffing nair would be a better way to make him better without hurting other chars viability. Same for Uair.

idk the idea of buffed Marth AND Crescent Slash grab combos seems a bit much.

Damn I really don't know then. I didn't really consider customs. What if his throws had less knockback for more combo potential? Eh, maybe that would be too much also.

 

[Xisin]

Buffing an aerial to the point where touching a shield doesnt result in an auto punish by a good player would be a good start. I get what you are saying marth can shutdown chars like mario and luigi hard when hes really good. (hell the mu with them isnt that bad currently.) However there are other mus that make life hard on us as of now. My most wanted thing is for brawl dancing blade, i literally want to scream like a child every time i get naired out of it by anyone with a sex kick. Or that fast fallers like greninja sheik and spacies simply dont db properly unless you are super elaborate on your strikes and go with all 3 directions (low %), even then it might not work /rage. (including the 4 frame start up mmm.)

TLDR rage about dancing blade and it not functioning a fraction of the time, makes me want to punch kittens.

 

[Vipermoon]

Edit: I don't think Marth was broken in Brawl and Melee but I do agree that he destroyed other characters. However, if you look at Marth's Brawl matchups they aren't usually too much in Marth's favor so I wouldn't use the word broken. But does he have to be as good as previously? No. But he was overnerfed nonetheless and they need to figure out to make changes in a calm, evolutionary manner.

I should've put League's instead of League so you could've understood my post, my bad.

I meant League's patch notes specifically because they oftentimes ridiculously buff average characters and they overly nerf others the minute something is "OP" about said champion. Yes, there are some champions where balancing is super hard to do, (Kassadin) but there are others where the characters are just nerfed in places that really shouldn't have happened. (Massively nerfing Fizz's W at one time even though he wasn't that bad) It causes a huge cycle where the meta is almost always shifting because they don't try to create a healthy meta-game, but rather an ever-changing one.

I suppose it's the key of their success, but this does not work for fighting games. We NEED a standard, and we can't have massive changes that make other characters top tier and others really low because of Sakurai going to the extreme rather than going with the minimum. Letting the meta evolve is a good thing, and patch notes should be given IF characters could use a little bit of minor buffing/nerfing, (as well as stupid glitches/exploits like Fox's infinite jab "combo") as it will prevent the meta from just completely changing but actually evolve into something better.

Tl;dr: Patch notes are good, but only if they are minor and not forcing the meta-game drastically. Minor buffs/nerfs and the removal of stupid glitches/(easy) infinites are great, since it means the meta-game can still naturally evolve while still being healthy.

I know you were talking about League but you are using the words patch notes as something else. Patches that affect balance are bad is what you're saying. And you're mostly right. But patch notes, notes that tell the players what exactly was changed, sound great to me. I would love it if we were specifically told what was changed in each update.

Damn I really don't know then. I didn't really consider customs. What if his throws had less knockback for more combo potential? Eh, maybe that would be too much also.

It would be awesome if we can have a little bit less ending lag after Marth performs a throw. I think this is more important than knockback. If Marth had less end lag after down throw (he currently has a lot) he would actually have down throw combos like most of the cast. Right now I find myself doing forward throw more often since my opponent DIs for down throw which is the improper DI for Fthrow. It gets you free Fair strings.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Emblem Lord I don't think small buffs would make him invalidate half of the cast. Your sword comment really isn't exactly accurate, either. Marth didn't invalidate half of the cast in Melee, that was mostly Sheik tbh, thanks to the amount of characters Sheik can chain-grab and just screw them over. Fox and Falco might have had a part in it, but I know Marth alone did not invalidate the cast in Melee, he just had the tools to stand up as a top tier character.

I also think Vergil is just an example of a really strong character in UMvC3. but he isn't the only one, and having a sword wasn't the reason. His stupid mobility and sword loops and his projectile is being able to transition into combos made him really strong. Zero is also because of lightning loops and above average mobility, nothing to really do with swords. Morrigan didn't have a sword and she's the best character in the game. (At least back in 2012)

Off-topic, but does Chris G even play Marvel anymore? I hardly see any Morrigans on thumbnails anymore so I assume he isn't playing much anymore. If so, I might actually watch UMvC3 again. :3

EDIT: @ Vipermoon Oh wow, I feel so derp now for saying notes. xD I meant patches.

 

[Random4811]

Honestly I dont think a slight buff to fair will make him a hard counter for half the cast. He still has glaring problems in other areas of his play. It just gives him a single good option. And if you take a look at Ike, his aerials got some buffs. Is he broken? I'd consider them pretty good buffs, a good auto cancel on nair and fair I believe. (or mabye it was nair and uair, i dont remember) and now he has some good aerial options.
Im not asking for Marth's chain throw uair, or buffs to his grab knockback for combos or anything. That would make him better than Shiek lol. His airspeed and land speed are still pretty bad, so its not like he's going to be the monster he was in Brawl or Melee with a slight buff to fair. He'd be better without being broken with a bit less lag on fair

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Well in the case he ends up getting buffed like how we are saying he should get buffed we should just watch closely how different he will preform and see if he really is broken or not. I know this is not really a good way to go about it since I am pretty sure we all just want things to be as balanced as possible as soon as possible, but I think he should just get buffed and then in a future patch have him get nerfed depending on if it is necessary. I can predict Marth becoming a very good character in this game, but not quite as good as Ness or Luigi as of now. I don't want to turn this into a tier discussion, but I would say he could end up somewhere in between the middle of A tier and the middle of B tier.

 

[Shaya]

I would probably remain content with fair staying as is. As I said, more fair to fsmash? Kinda not great.
It's still a dominating aerial when Marth is in the air and will remain in the air.

Marth was kinda broken in Brawl, but a lot had to do with his "everything" working out for him. He wasn't cg'd heavily by anyone in the cast, not screwed over by an infinite or lock. He was the least abusable (or second least abusable after Lucario) character in the game in EVERYTHING that was discovered. Frame 1 invincible dolphin slash and his floatyness. A match up like ICs would go from precarious to unwinnable had it been possible for Popo to chaingrab Marth by himself at all (allowed Marth to take risks in neutral that he knew would hit at least one of them).

Fair didn't shut down the cast as much as people would like to think. Lower ends of the cast were completely castrated by neutral air, while fair for them was still the "power shield punish". A lot of my game play thoughts with Marth in Brawl when it came to mistakes was "did I jump too early/late before fairing", because you really had to be that precise to succeed against the better characters. That forward air had to hit well spaced, just as the arc reaches downwards at a certain height of your jump so you could auto cancel it or jump away.

Among other things Marth was also lucky with grab releases and having a solid early percent grab game himself (not as dominating as Falco, Olimar), but having fthrow fsmash or dthrow cgs on some characters (dthrow to fsmash working on all the lighter characters until like 20%), heck fthrow tipper dair was a combo on every character and definitely was capable of ending anyone's stocks if you executed a gimp to their recovery afterwards (or they'd just die... like DK or Falco).

I think Marth having less grab range, less aerial mobility and a neutered dolphin slash (not frame 1 invincible, in the air it is but the horizontal reach is pitiful) without any super grab game shenanigans will ensure he has enough counter play in his kit otherwise if he was buffed half way to completely to his brawl self. Marth is combo fodder in this game, he accepts full punishment from the cast, if not more punishment than most.

I can see where Crescent Slash could be problematic, but it's still "trash" in my eyes (in the "people will know how to DI this, people will know how to avoid this"). A more apt/less laggy Marth would still probably be struggling to keep up with the rewards Mario/Luigi/Diddy/etc get even with Crescent Slash imo. The easy way to keep this from being a problem is just not buffing fair but other things instead.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Reward becomes less of an issue when these chars cant hit him. Mario and Luigi for example got bodied HARD by Marth in both previous iterations. He rocked them harder then anyone else. They simply couldn't get in.

Its been proven in Brawl and Melee that Marth with a good fair is just really really hard to hit. It's a straight up wall that many chars cannot deal with besides attempt to PS. Even other top tiers can't deal with it head on, they just have other tools to mitigate it. CCing in Melee for example, or Falco's lasers.

Give fair a better AC sure but less landing recovery is pushing it. Buff marths jab and some other stuff. Make him a "whole" character instead of just making a potentially dangerous move, really stupid and thus making Marth a boring one dimensional character.

 

[Vipermoon]

...less aerial mobility...

I've been saying Marth doesn't have nerfed horizontal air movement. I have proof:

If you die at Hyrule Temple, respawn, and hold your control stick to the right in Brawl you end up at the very end of the top of that first platform. In Smash 4 you end up at very the end as well. Now with that said, my question to you is: because Marth has near Melee falling speed in this game, does this mean his aerial mobility was increased? Meaning, if a character falls faster than before but stills ends up on the same part of that platform, is this the same or better aerial mobility?

Either way, Marth at least has the same aerial mobility (depending on the answer to that^ question). If anyone doesn't believe that all they have to do is easily replicate what I did.

If anyone is wondering, Melee Marth actually does not make it on top of that platform... Almost, but nope.

 

[Shaya]

I've been saying Marth doesn't have nerfed horizontal air movement. I have proof:

We have data dumped from the game and a non-rudimentary testing by others for proof.

There are other air stats such as aerial acceleration/deceleration and terminal velocity.

"The more you know"

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I think what might need to be buffed is d tilt rather than fair. Fair can be somewhat useful for shield pressure if you hit at the tip and don't just spam it, but I think d tilt could use something to make it less punishable OoS like making it push you back farther when you shield it.

 

[Nowayitsj]

U ,

I think what might need to be buffed is d tilt rather than fair. Fair can be somewhat useful for shield pressure if you hit at the tip and don't just spam it, but I think d tilt could use something to make it less punishable OoS like making it push you back farther when you shield it.

honestly I think that's very wrong, I won't list or go on to what I think should get buffed because like emblem lord said too many of 'small' things can make him a lite too strong so I'm not sure how to buff him, however his dtilt, atleast imo is one of his best moves currently, or is atleast up there as a good option, it doesn't need buffing its good where its at tbh.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Depends how you buff it.

More damage, I'm ok with. Less pushback on hit or less recovery and now Marth gets hit confirms and kill confirms. I dunno if you want him to have those things. He will turn into Chun-li from 3s with a sword. But it depends on the frame data really.

 

[Vipermoon]

We have data dumped from the game and a non-rudimentary testing by others for proof.

There are other air stats such as aerial acceleration/deceleration and terminal velocity.

"The more you know"

So what are the numbers? I mean, if he accelerated slower, he still ended up at the same part of that platform. That wouldn't make sense

 

[Zorai]

Marth was far from '********' in Brawl. It was quite possible to beat him with mid tier characters through powershielding and abusing his linear landing of a descending fair/nair. If he stayed on the ground and had a good reaction time though, he beat most of the cast easily. So frankly he was in a good position in Brawl because it came down to player skill.

Now in this game it's 10x easier to lose your ground positioning and be a juggle toy because his ground game is gone. Dancing blade just doesn't combo, dtilt is dagger length and has worse frame data if I'm not mistaken. Short hop retreating fair is still punishable even if they don't powershield and even if you land without lag.

Buffing the **** out of fair isn't going to make Marth broken lmao. Diddy's fair stuffs like 90% of normals in this game and has no lag whatsoever and that's on top of his amazing kit and mobility.

Marth needs buffs. Period.

 

[Random4811]

Marth's fair being buffed to have less lag will probably not lead to any good hit confirms honestly. if it has 14-15 frames of landing lag (a decent buff IMO), its still got the problem of its high knockback and stuff. Fair to Fsmash probably wont work due to Fsmash's ****ty range, even at low percents. The most you might get is a guarenteed double fair up to certain percents. But is that bad? Shiek has that. And Shiek can get options out of it. Marth really doesnt have other options he could reliably get out of it. His ground game is pretty bad and his other options are pretty limited. I doubt he'd have a kill confirm out of it, unless he gets a tipped kill off of Fair- but by the time you get to kill% for fair, it most likely wouldnt be guarenteed.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

So i was playing smash 4 with @JimmyHedgehog today and then shenanigans happened.(I was white marth) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKQI1Zn-w78 I also agree that marth needs buffs.since what they did to him in this game is just gross.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth was far from '********' in Brawl. It was quite possible to beat him with mid tier characters through powershielding and abusing his linear landing of a descending fair/nair. If he stayed on the ground and had a good reaction time though, he beat most of the cast easily. So frankly he was in a good position in Brawl because it came down to player skill.

Now in this game it's 10x easier to lose your ground positioning and be a juggle toy because his ground game is gone. Dancing blade just doesn't combo, dtilt is dagger length and has worse frame data if I'm not mistaken. Short hop retreating fair is still punishable even if they don't powershield and even if you land without lag.

Buffing the **** out of fair isn't going to make Marth broken lmao. Diddy's fair stuffs like 90% of normals in this game and has no lag whatsoever and that's on top of his amazing kit and mobility.

Marth needs buffs. Period.

d-tilt is unchanged, besides 3 frames more of recovery.

Also Brawl Marth was beatable unless he played well.

So basically any top tier ever made then?

I'm not a fan of mindless tools and thats what Brawl fair is. You will probably get your wish though come April 15th. Hope you enjoy it.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Oh boy, it's stating opinions as facts time again! *grabs popcorn*

 

[Shaya]

Brawl fair was farrrrr from mindless. Really.
In this game, fair is like a 60 frame commitment. In brawl it was still a 30 frame commitment with only four frames of active hitboxes.

Nair genuinely mindlessly shut down most characters because even with power shields, it's auto cancel 3 frames after the hitbox ends and it's two hits covering the time of his jumps, most character's just plainly didn't have an option to beat it or punish it (nair was up to like +3 on shield auto cancelled).

Nair was so good that a majority of top level players didn't know how to deal with it either. Tyrant is the only player I know that consistently could **** Marth for this; power shielding the first hit and a sub 8 frame move would win [but only if it was staled would this be possible] or psing the first hit into a slight move forward into another power shield into a long range + stupidly fast punish. This was something that a character like MK, Marth and Snake were the only ones consistently able to do something about that even with double power shielding and perfect timing. Fair on the other hand plainly lost to shielding it into a dash forward shield, every single time, unless your fair timing and spacing was perfect.

The problem with fair being buffed in this game is that we have combos. I'm already pretty much getting sour fair into tipper fsmash once per tournament match. I'm not fishing for them, I just have to hit with a sour fair (sour fair doesn't mean not well spaced, arcing hitboxes are da bess) at the right height, once and I get a KO. If fair gets buffed too much, fsmash would need to be gutted in KO power to otherwise not have him as something beyond stupid.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Shaya I think F-Smash should actually be nerfed in-exchange for reduced aerial lag and less F-Smash end lag. It should be nerfed to at least 95-100%. (110-120% is probably the best, though) It looks like a massive nerf at first, but having many more combo options would be a much more consistent way to kill and it would provide back the fast, fluid, and yet still strategic manner that Marth had in Melee would make me a happy man. :D

Plus, this way IF Marth gets any buffs/buffs we desire and it turns out Marth is too strong thanks to how early F-Smash kills, it would prevent Sakurai from just nerfing all of Marth's kit because he wouldn't know what would make this hypothetical Marth so strong. xD Again though, I'm not expecting doodoo from Sakurai on April 15 in-terms of Marth.

 

[Zorai]

Brawl fair was farrrrr from mindless. Really.
In this game, fair is like a 60 frame commitment. In brawl it was still a 30 frame commitment with only four frames of active hitboxes.

Nair genuinely mindlessly shut down most characters because even with power shields, it's auto cancel 3 frames after the hitbox ends and it's two hits covering the time of his jumps, most character's just plainly didn't have an option to beat it or punish it (nair was up to like +3 on shield auto cancelled).

Nair was so good that a majority of top level players didn't know how to deal with it either. Tyrant is the only player I know that consistently could **** Marth for this; power shielding the first hit and a sub 8 frame move would win [but only if it was staled would this be possible] or psing the first hit into a slight move forward into another power shield into a long range + stupidly fast punish. This was something that a character like MK, Marth and Snake were the only ones consistently able to do something about that even with double power shielding and perfect timing. Fair on the other hand plainly lost to shielding it into a dash forward shield, every single time, unless your fair timing and spacing was perfect.

The problem with fair being buffed in this game is that we have combos. I'm already pretty much getting sour fair into tipper fsmash once per tournament match. I'm not fishing for them, I just have to hit with a sour fair (sour fair doesn't mean not well spaced, arcing hitboxes are da bess) at the right height, once and I get a KO. If fair gets buffed too much, fsmash would need to be gutted in KO power to otherwise not have him as something beyond stupid.

Well regardless I just think Marth has a long way to go before he's not second to last on the tier list. Quick disclaimer, I don't think he ACTUALLY is, it's just that no one knows how to play him with his new (read: ****ty) kit. If they brought back Brawl fair frame data that'd be a blessing. They can reduce the knockback on it for all we care too, just means more combos. You have to realize Marth has next to no grab combos and gets abused kinda easily.

Do you happen to have any gameplay vids btw? And what are your thoughts on counter?

I've yet to see sourspot fair into tipper fsmash.

 

[Vipermoon]

You guys wanna abuse Smash 4 Marth? Break them shields.

You are literally disrespecting Marth by shielding in a match vs Marth

Lmao. I kid, kind of. Seriously though, shield breaker is good and everything else got a lot worse so I say we need more creative and often shield breaking in Marth gameplay.

Edit: Forget Brawl Marth fair frame data, you want Melee frame data. IASA frame 30 on Melee Fair!

 

[soju]

So how does a melee player learn to be efficient with sword guy, I was trying to learn lucina but the lack of sword tipping action brought me here. I'm just trying to not be so melee when I play, I'm getting how the game works but there are habits that die hard

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Answer: play a different character. Was a marth main in melee and nothing transfers over to this game.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Answer: play a different character. Was a marth main in melee and nothing transfers over to this game.

lol no. We play Marth because we like him. We just want him to be good again and we will still play him even if it never happens. Why are you here?