Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Quickhero]

lol no. We play Marth because we like him. We just want him to be good again and we will still play him even if it never happens. Why are you here?

I strongly dislike that people say "we want him to be good", which implies this game has such an unbalanced meta-game that a skilled Marth can't actually compete in the metagame unless he is just eons better than the opponent, especially since he actually has really good tools with customs. Still, he could still be better without being broken and retain the good old Melee/Brawl(?) feel that makes him a lot more fun to play and obviously he would be better. :D

Obviously we play Marth because we like him and we have the dedication from one way or the other (generally from playing Fire Emblem[11/12] or just found him to be an absolute stallion aesthetically interesting character) and he certainly shouldn't be discouraged from playing Marth if he wants to play Marth.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Considering Marth's poor tournament results and very low placing on tier list, its pretty safe to say he will get buffed in the next patch. Here are some things i hope the developers will do to improve him:

• Increase KBS of Up throw so that it can KO at 130% w/o rage
• Increase grab range
• increase damage dealt by grabs
• Decrease landlag of all aerials
• Increase KB of Dolphin Slash
• Decrease startup time for dash attack

 

[Shaya]

130% w/no rage?

What are you smoking.
That will make it undeniably the best kill throw in the game, significantly better than Ness back throw seeing as it wouldn't ever have issues of stage positioning because it's vertical rather than horizontal.

No other change whatsoever would put him top 5 in the game, I guarantee this.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

130% w/no rage?

What are you smoking.
That will make it undeniably the best kill throw in the game, significantly better than Ness back throw seeing as it wouldn't ever have issues of stage positioning because it's vertical rather than horizontal.

No other change whatsoever would put him top 5 in the game, I guarantee this.

Reason I wanted this change is because his other throws are pretty underwhelming compared to the rest of the cast. He has virtually has no followups from his B-Throw and F-throw and they have poor KBS, making them poor KO options even at high percents unlike, say, Bowser. Only D-throw can be followed up on and even then, its followups become more unreliable at higher percents (at least to my knowledge, I could be wrong). Having an extremely powerful up throw gives him a throw that has actual utility and improves his otherwise poor grab game.

That being said it probably would have been a better idea to suggestion his F-Throw and B-Throw Knockback be changed completely so that Marth has more reliable followups from them instead of suggesting a change that could possibly break him.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I strongly dislike that people say "we want him to be good", which implies this game has such an unbalanced meta-game that a skilled Marth can't actually compete in the metagame unless he is just eons better than the opponent, especially since he actually has really good tools with customs. Still, he could still be better without being broken and retain the good old Melee/Brawl(?) feel that makes him a lot more fun to play and obviously he would be better. :D

Obviously we play Marth because we like him and we have the dedication from one way or the other (generally from playing Fire Emblem[11/12] or just found him to be an absolute stallion aesthetically interesting character) and he certainly shouldn't be discouraged from playing Marth if he wants to play Marth.

Yeah you are right, but saying that we should drop Marth doesn't make him sound like he wants to play Marth even if he does use him.

 

[soju]

It's still a fairly fresh game I really think it needs some more development before conclusions are made. I don't think marth will ever be that bad due to him having a sword and his tippers, just need a flesh it out some more. But hey I'm not good at smash 4 so don't quote me. just gonna stick with marth, apply footsies and spacing, and wait till I get a good understanding of things

 

[fox67890]

The problem with fair being buffed in this game is that we have combos. I'm already pretty much getting sour fair into tipper fsmash once per tournament match. I'm not fishing for them, I just have to hit with a sour fair (sour fair doesn't mean not well spaced, arcing hitboxes are da bess) at the right height, once and I get a KO. If fair gets buffed too much, fsmash would need to be gutted in KO power to otherwise not have him as something beyond stupid.

Genuine question: What/where is this arcing hitbox you speak of? I think i've only been able to get true combos off fair if I hit with the inside of it as I landed into the opponent, but I think you're talking about something different. Do you mean something like this (although it didn't actually true combo here)?

 

[Shaya]

Genuine question: What/where is this arcing hitbox you speak of? I think i've only been able to get true combos off fair if I hit with the inside of it as I landed into the opponent, but I think you're talking about something different. Do you mean something like this (although it didn't actually true combo here)?

As the blade is angled upwards at the start and downwards at the end, the sourspot hitbox of the blade protrudes as far or close to as far horizontally at these specific times.

"true combos" is a mythical creature. But that video is one good example of it happening. If you're lucky to hit at the first frame of the move the angle they're sent is slightly more upwards than otherwise (even if sakurai angle denotes semi-spike) that leads into fsmash likely with a bit more legitimacy.

 

[Zorai]

Just watched that Mr. E vid..

Damn I guess it's true

No one knows how to play Marth in this game LOL

 

[fox67890]

As the blade is angled upwards at the start and downwards at the end, the sourspot hitbox of the blade protrudes as far or close to as far horizontally at these specific times.

"true combos" is a mythical creature. But that video is one good example of it happening. If you're lucky to hit at the first frame of the move the angle they're sent is slightly more upwards than otherwise (even if sakurai angle denotes semi-spike) that leads into fsmash likely with a bit more legitimacy.

The first part of your explanation kinda confuses me, but if it's like what Mr. E did in that video, I think I kinda get it. But just to make sure I'm on the right wavelength, is this basically making sure you get a non-tippered fair that hits on the first frame it's active? Thanks for your reply btw

 

[Shaya]

Hitboxes are spheres

think of this "\" having two big circles around it which overlap towards the centre.
The sour spot hitbox that covers a majority of the low side still protrudes horizontally "below" the tipper hitbox and when Marth starts his fair the sourspot is more horizontally in front than the tipper hitbox is (at least this was the case in Brawl, but even if it's not so in Smash4 if you're thinking about 180 degrees in front of Marth, the sour spot reaches further than the tipper).

Also the angle of a trajectory a move sends you at is in relation to the angle at which the hitbox is facing at the time (let's just assume a hitbox meant to send you 45 degrees is flipped over somehow, then the angle it would send is 315 instead) But yeah, in short, hit with the first frame of it's active and auto cancel it or be landing immediately afterwards.

 

[Locuan]

I got destroyed today in tourney. Well more fuel to the fire of trying to improve. @ kj22 saw me struggle, hard. But, I did win a MegaMan amiibo from a raffle Also, @ Nike. can't pronounce my tag. The many transmutations of my tag:

• Locuan
• Loucan
• Toucan
• Logan

 

[Random4811]

I got destroyed today in tourney. Well more fuel to the fire of trying to improve. @ kj22 saw me struggle, hard. But, I did win a MegaMan amiibo from a raffle Also, @ Nike. can't pronounce my tag. The many transmutations of my tag:

• Locuan
• Loucan
• Toucan
• Logan

How do you pronounce it?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

How do you pronounce it?

I think it is pronounced Low-caan or Low-can.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Quick question

Any Marcina in the US that has a Wii-U but not Smash 4 and wants it? PM me please.

 

[Locuan]

How do you pronounce it?

It's with Spanish pronunciation.

Lo-cuan.

The cuan sounds like the quan in quantity. The Lo is with Spanish pronunciation can't seem to find a good similar syllable in English.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Quick question

Any Marcina in the US that has a Wii-U but not Smash 4 and wants it? PM me please.

Giving up on Smash 4?

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. no.

Feeling generous. Too much money in my bank account for my liking. I personal believe that excess leads to decadence.

 

[Quickhero]

lol. no.

Feeling generous. Too much money in my bank account for my liking. I personal believe that excess leads to decadence.

I know a friend of mine that is GETTING a Wii-U, if you can store that for like 2 weeks for when he actually gets it I would gladly give it to him. :3

EDIT: Though, generally I would just sell that since in this economy you will need all the money you can get haha. Still if you're sure, my friend would gladly take it off your hands.

 

[kj22]

lol. no.

Feeling generous. Too much money in my bank account for my liking. I personal believe that excess leads to decadence.

Why not put it into a savings account for the future (kids/vacation/etc) or donate to a charity?

 

[Shaya]

Or do what I do EL and fly to a foreign country every once in a while.

 

[Random4811]

It's with Spanish pronunciation.

Lo-cuan.

The cuan sounds like the quan in quantity. The Lo is with Spanish pronunciation can't seem to find a good similar syllable in English.

Im Colombian, I think I know what you're talking about. Kind of sounds like low but said quickly.
and cuan, like cuanto. Yes?

 

[Locuan]

Im Colombian, I think I know what you're talking about. Kind of sounds like low but said quickly.
and cuan, like cuanto. Yes?

Yes, precisely. I'm Puerto Rican so most of the names/tags I come up with have Spanish pronunciation.

 

[Shaya]

Wait, where does that "g" sound you told me come into it.

 

[Locuan]

Wait, where does that "g" sound you told me come into it.

Wait, what "g"? There's no "g". If I said, or mentioned "g", I must be terrible at explaining things in person lol D:

 

[Quickhero]

Or do what I do EL and fly to a foreign country every once in a while.

That's legitimately an admirable thing to do. I don't think donating to third world countries really helps that much, but just being there and providing moral support for these kids is just amazing and I'm so happy that @ Emblem Lord would do such a thing.

 

[Random4811]

Yes, precisely. I'm Puerto Rican so most of the names/tags I come up with have Spanish pronunciation.

I'd been saying it Low-cawn because Ive not been raised to be spanish speaking, but I can see it now. Its going to be weird to adjust but I like it.

 

[Locuan]

Or do what I do EL and fly to a foreign country every once in a while.

I should visit Australia

Spoiler

It's freaking expensive though D:

 

[Nike.]

I'm so sorry, Locuan

Why am I trash?

 

[Locuan]

I'm so sorry, Locuan

Why am I trash?

Don't worry about it Also you are not trash D:

 

[Zorai]

Any fellow Marths (preferably Shaya) have any replays of some tournament gameplay? Would like to see some vids posted up for analysis/discussion.

I'll be going to a tournament this weekend and will be sure to do the same.

Definitely want to show Marth is far from bottom 2 in this game, given proper decision making and reaction time.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why not put it into a savings account for the future (kids/vacation/etc) or donate to a charity?

Don't want children. I don't take vacations. That said I have a savings account and I have some assets built up already and more coming in. I will probably just buy my friend something, though it's not a gift. More like research material for a project we are working on. Though I did just buy him a capture card for 140 bucks.

Ah, well.


Marth isn't bottom tier. But he is no better then lower mid tier.

 

[Locuan]

Why am I trash?

Wait, now I remember. lol....

 

[Honor]

Do we have a sense yet how often or heavily Nintendo will update the game? I feel like this could make for a situation where we have to slightly re-learn the game twice a year. Maybe I'm overreacting.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are cute because this is your first competitive game. How adorable.

And yes thats exactly how it will be. I'm not joking.

Most competitive fighters get at least one patch a year these days.

Any game from ArcSys or Netherrealms are the ones that get tons of patches within a very short span. Sometimes two or three in less then a year. If Nintendo follows that trend expect a new metagame once a year.

Fun times.

 

[kj22]

Any fellow Marths (preferably Shaya) have any replays of some tournament gameplay? Would like to see some vids posted up for analysis/discussion.

I'll be going to a tournament this weekend and will be sure to do the same.

Definitely want to show Marth is far from bottom 2 in this game, given proper decision making and reaction time.

Check out my vids in the marth video critique thread, Shaya has some there too as well

 

[Locuan]

I find it fun and entertaining to have a patching system like that (at least a patch a year). Learning new things is always great and keeps us active. There are drawbacks, but I believe the benefits outweigh them.

 

[Zorai]

So I've been having mixed feelings about Marth lately. It seems he has a few impossible/really hard matchups but then seems to be capable of going toe to toe with the rest of the cast provided you play properly.

Some impossible matchups I've noticed: Greninja (way too fast), ROB (better hitboxes), Dark Pit (just gets underneath Marth so easily)..

Just to name a few. Without godlike mechanics Marth is near useless since even a perfectly spaced fair is punishable with little to no effort. If he fairs and it doesn't hit that's like a 60 frame commitment where he cant do anything else.. Ugh I really hope he gets buffed.

 

[kj22]

So I've been having mixed feelings about Marth lately. It seems he has a few impossible/really hard matchups but then seems to be capable of going toe to toe with the rest of the cast provided you play properly.

Some impossible matchups I've noticed: Greninja (way too fast), ROB (better hitboxes), Dark Pit (just gets underneath Marth so easily)..

Just to name a few. Without godlike mechanics Marth is near useless since even a perfectly spaced fair is punishable with little to no effort. If he fairs and it doesn't hit that's like a 60 frame commitment where he cant do anything else.. Ugh I really hope he gets buffed.

No more solo maining marth, haven't you heard?

Pick up a secondary if you want to save yourself a lot of frustration and grief, unless you don't care about your skill being expressed to its fullest (won't happen with marth).

Yeah lots of mu are doable, but most of the top tiers (read who you most likely will be fighting in tournaments) aren't.

I don't think greninjas impossible tbh, Dark Pit/Pit are annoying and so is ROB but none near the level of sheik/diddy.

 

[Zorai]

No more solo maining marth, haven't you heard?

Pick up a secondary if you want to save yourself a lot of frustration and grief, unless you don't care about your skill being expressed to its fullest (won't happen with marth).

Yeah lots of mu are doable, but most of the top tiers (read who you most likely will be fighting in tournaments) aren't.

I don't think greninjas impossible tbh, Dark Pit/Pit are annoying and so is ROB but none near the level of sheik/diddy.

You can use Marth in a tournament setting if you are aware of what matchups you should not attempt to play I guess.