Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Nair is 15 frames unless it got changed in 1.04/wiiu (hell dont think it got changed on 1.04 3ds).

However, nair is the same animation as brawl, but with the consistency of sword reach 'buffs', is now reaching noticeable more horizontally than it was in Brawl.

Shields are 25% more commitment in this game. Marth is prepped to be the perfect character to adjust to that in his advantage.
It's a habit we're going to have a hard time to break, but choosing not to swing your sword at someone you think is about to shield may actually prove to be optimal.

I just try to use what seems to be better aerial mobility, run and walk speeds to my advantage over swordsss.

 

[kj22]

Why more commitment for shields? They dont still come out on frame one, 13 frames to drop?

I've been using alotttt more empty jumps, but by instinct as I'm descending and the oppenent dashes at me I try to fair and...yeah ugly.

The fact that marth can't defend himself while simply landing is gross. Drifting back/double jump away seem best option but the diddy I was playing would run past and full hop fair.
Oh and he would do that after I full hop retreated fair as well.
Another diddy tidbit...fair has decent shield push back. To the point where if diddy is going to land in front of you and throws out a fair, he'll push you out of grab range. Do any of Marth's aerials cause shield push back anymore lol

Maybe descending dancing blade to condition them to shield, the switch to grab when they expect that? Idk, need more exploration.

I'm absolutely dyinggg to see some high level Marth action(videos) but literally almost all of the brawl marth mains have jumped ship. Haven't seen any high level marth videos, how about you guys?

Is there no more of our kind left?

 

[Shaya]

Don't worry, within 7 days I'm sure there'll be videos of me getting 3 stocked by Tyrant for us all to cry over.

Diddy SH ACing Fair over and over again and being effective is one of the things that piss me off about this game in contrast to Marth. Who basically doesn't have a single auto cancel he can use for similar effect.

I think you need to focus on that spacing you're capable of jumping without being primed for dash fair. Crouching beats diddy's fair as a tidbit.
Learn to use neutral air better. Walking and crouching in neutral more. Don't forget about jab or down tilt.

If diddy's trying to catch you with fair on the rise of your jump, then do sh rising air dodge aerials, they time perfectly for landing. Him trying to catch you on landing with fair should be a lot easier to deal with.

 

[kj22]

Haha I'll bring the popcorn, you'll have plenty of salt(;

Yessss that's literally the first thing I lost to on my day 1 Wii u tourney. The craziness that is Diddy.

Hmm I see what you're saying about crouching. If that also causes monkey flip to go over marth I'll add my tears of joy to our future popcorn bowl.

I'm using neutral air during airdoge traps/cover options on platforms, not so much in the neutral. How should I be using it? Retreating SHNair?

I forgot about jab. I use dtilt a lot.

Diddy peanuts are more annoying then ever. They actually cause enough hitstin where you can be punished. I'm guessing they have more cool down as I was able to tipper dash attack him after he shot a peanut?

I like the airdodge then aerial thing, I'll use that.

Meanwhile getting back on the stage from the ledge vs diddy is scarier then ever.

 

[Shaya]

Anyway @ Emblem Lord

Here's my "wish list" of Marth changes, avoiding that thread to say them for reasons being "BlUFFS".

Down Tilt -> Hitbox specifics changed back to Brawl. Marth's meant to force people to the ledge and trap people there, but down tilt not hitting people on a ledge is very disappointing and I'm pretty sure a bit of an oversight when standardising his numbers. I should have a look at the knockback differences, but if it were to go back to brawl knockback so that it could be combo'd out of at low to mid percent? That would be amazing. Possibly more than it deserves, please just make it a more effective poke.

Jab needs to be 27 frames to end again. The 'blanket' 2 frame thing is silly in relation to this move. If it went the other way (27 -> 25) I think I'd be over the moon, Jab would feel AMAZING, guaranteed. I really dislike that this move basically isn't safe on hit until a point at which there is no way to follow up from it unless an opponent holds into you AND it randomly trips them.

Dancing Blade consistency please. It leaves such a bitter taste in my mouth as well as a hole in gameplay not really covered by anything else we can do. Dancing blades our main punish/damage racking tool, when you can only reliable get the first two hits its just... silly.


Auto cancels: Fair, Uair, Bair.
I can see why nair doesn't have an auto cancel. It would be very very nice if it got it's brawl one restored and would supersede any reason to give auto cancel/landing lag buffs to any of his other aerials. BUT assuming nair is in a good spot in terms of lag...
Those 3 moves should be able to reliably sh rising into fast fall landing without lag. If being 24 frame auto cancels is 'too good', then adjusting them all to around back air's auto cancel (maybe even 1-2 frames earlier) would be sufficient. Basically everyone hates trying to buffer an action onto the ground only to have an air dodge or aerial that won't come out buffering giving you some 20 odd frames of lag. It's dumb. It shouldn't be a technical limit to Marth/Lucina players and Sakurai should DEFINITELY adjust the auto cancels on these moves so Marth can air to ground transition just slightly easier.

"Buffs"
Nair damage up. 11% total is silly when everything else about the move was also heavily nerfed.

Up Tilt was randomly gutted between Brawl to Smash4, and it was understandably gutted from Melee to Brawl. It has so much lag, so little damage and so little usefulness (cannot combo out of it, we have better anti-air options, it no longer kills, etc etc) that it just sits in limbo for no reason. I don't want it to freely link into itself over and over, but if I hit someone with it I should be able to at least attempt a follow up aerial; right now they're at a frame advantage on hit 100% of the time or too far out of range. It's kinda good for a landing trap but really not good enough (every time I up tilt accidentally instead of up smash I become sadness). Either give some damage back to it (push it more towards a punish) or give end lag reductions (find me a 5% damage dealing attack in this game with this much/similar lag on it, I'd be really interested to see what else exists that is so awkwardly/poorly tuned as up tilt).

Back air tipper should be a stronger kill move. Maybe even tipper up air as well. I find it a little weird how Robin's levin sword is a lot easier to use than the Falchion (no spacing required/attrition attributes on it is a joke in terms of limiting), and having an up air that kills as low as 90% and back air at the ledge with similar power just leaves me a bit longing. There's so much gratification in hitting Levin Sword aerials, and I would say that marth's tipper mechanics are underwhelming in reward for what's more skillful/risky on Marth.

Down air tipper (not the spike box) is a bit underwhelming too. We lost the ability to full hop auto cancel dair hitting people/shields on the ground and it's now otherwise weaker than his other aerials for knock back while being decisively useless for anything else. If you want me to short hop dair, then ****ing give me an auto cancel for it, Sakurai. Auto cancels frame 40 = sh rising dair as an option.

I'm using neutral air during airdoge traps/cover options on platforms, not so much in the neutral. How should I be using it? Retreating SHNair?

SH FF is 24 frames done optimally. Nair hits up until frame 21. So a sh rising retreating nair is our closest thing to "sh auto cancelled fair" from Diddy.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I just realized something about bair....

Now that Lucina exists, we aren't the only character that turns around completely after we do it.

We lost our individuality

But we were the OG turn around bair users.....

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth would be a god with your changes Shaya.

This engine is simply not built to handle a Marth that you envision.

Even worse he would be pretty mindless. I do not and will not ever approve of this.

 

[Shaya]

I think auto cancel frames adjusted so Marth can air to ground transition with less technical precision isn't making him mindless.
I'm certain up tilt is overnerfed.

Everything else is just peeves.
Including down tilt/dancing blade's inconsistencies.

The extent to which those numbers are adjusted on things I mentioned would determine whether or not he's a god. 24 frame ACs on fair/bair/uair? Potentially able to make him a god; potentially. All adjusted to be the same as back air? It wouldn't break him; you cannot sh rising ff bair as it is, but you can still fast fall just as you start to fall for a relatively reliable auto cancel, and that's what I think those moves should have.
Our tipper aerials actually being powerful kill moves? Eh, if DB was consistent then we wouldn't need this. The lack of reliable DB = the only moves we can actually use consistently are stale.

If "everything" I listed was done at the same time, it would push him over the top, I agree. If our aerials are to be by design that laggy and restrictive in use, then the reward should compensate better.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My goal for him is to just be rewarded for playing properly. Buff jab, revert u-tilt, buff d-tilt and make DB more consistent. That's it.

The rest is just crying. Justified crying perhaps. But crying all the same.

 

[Shaya]

Well DB having consistency again, as I said in that patch topic is probably more than ample enough to make him godly tbqh.
The move kills, the move gives us consistent 10-15 damage, the move clears our stale queue like nothing else in the entirety of Brawl/Smash 4.

I can't honestly justify that when a QoL buff like adjustments to AC's on our "preferred" short hop aerials is significantly more straight forward in impact (it's basically only adjustments to how a player executes things in common play patterns; not enough [with the right numbers mind you] to suddenly make him an air camping/frame advantage on shield monster).

 

[Random4811]

I.. I am a changed man. I knew the day would come. I just got wrecked for five matches against a diddy. I gave up. Can we just take a moment to revel in how broken he is compared to everyone else? Sure, he's no Brawl MK, but that is just wrong. Literally no one else in the game has tools like that. I mean, he has a wall-of-pain like stunt he can pull off with that gross fair. I don't know why Sakurai needs to put in a grossly overwhelming character, but I really wish he'd just left Meta Knight alone. Then we could just ban him and not get face-***** by a fugly monkey. (seriously, why does he have a command grab that involves him humping opponents faces? ehhhhggg..)

I mean, I figured out how to get around most of his bull**** pretty fast, but the second he grabs me, I lose about 39%. I know there is some way to escape it. I just don't know what. I heard if you DI behind diddy, you'll be okay, but I dont know how true that is. I only just started looking. If it wasnt for the fact that his recovery was easy to gimp, and his aerial game is kind of meh other than fair, he may very well have been this games MK.

So, here is what I propose we do.. We all tweet Daddy Sakurai videos of Diddy's combos. When he sees he accidentally left something that looks like Melee in the game, we'll get a version 1.05.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Japan doesnt even have their wii u version yet and its already been shown that sakurai attends japanese tournies.

There will be alot more patches. Be careful what you wish for. You never know what a developer is thinking. Marth might get nerfed. You never know.

 

[Shaya]

Wait, Sakurai goes to Japanese tournaments?

 

[Emblem Lord]

"Remember the Japanese "2-on-2 Premium Fight" Super Smash Bros. 3DS tournament that MOV entered, which we reported on a little more than a week ago?

That was actually an official Japanese Smash Bros. tournament organized by Nico Video with Nintendo's seal of quality stamp of approval on it. After two qualifying rounds on November 22 and 24, the finals of the tournament took place this past Sunday on November 30, with Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U game director Masahiro Sakurai in attendance."

From eventhubs

 

[kj22]

I.. I am a changed man. I knew the day would come. I just got wrecked for five matches against a diddy. I gave up. Can we just take a moment to revel in how broken he is compared to everyone else? Sure, he's no Brawl MK, but that is just wrong. Literally no one else in the game has tools like that. I mean, he has a wall-of-pain like stunt he can pull off with that gross fair. I don't know why Sakurai needs to put in a grossly overwhelming character, but I really wish he'd just left Meta Knight alone. Then we could just ban him and not get face-***** by a fugly monkey. (seriously, why does he have a command grab that involves him humping opponents faces? ehhhhggg..)

I mean, I figured out how to get around most of his bull**** pretty fast, but the second he grabs me, I lose about 39%. I know there is some way to escape it. I just don't know what. I heard if you DI behind diddy, you'll be okay, but I dont know how true that is. I only just started looking. If it wasnt for the fact that his recovery was easy to gimp, and his aerial game is kind of meh other than fair, he may very well have been this games MK.

So, here is what I propose we do.. We all tweet Daddy Sakurai videos of Diddy's combos. When he sees he accidentally left something that looks like Melee in the game, we'll get a version 1.05.

You got your first (and definitely not last) taste of diddy. You survived, now on to figuring out ways to deal with this monkey....

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I.. I am a changed man. I knew the day would come. I just got wrecked for five matches against a diddy. I gave up. Can we just take a moment to revel in how broken he is compared to everyone else? Sure, he's no Brawl MK, but that is just wrong. Literally no one else in the game has tools like that. I mean, he has a wall-of-pain like stunt he can pull off with that gross fair. I don't know why Sakurai needs to put in a grossly overwhelming character, but I really wish he'd just left Meta Knight alone. Then we could just ban him and not get face-***** by a fugly monkey. (seriously, why does he have a command grab that involves him humping opponents faces? ehhhhggg..)

I mean, I figured out how to get around most of his bull**** pretty fast, but the second he grabs me, I lose about 39%. I know there is some way to escape it. I just don't know what. I heard if you DI behind diddy, you'll be okay, but I dont know how true that is. I only just started looking. If it wasnt for the fact that his recovery was easy to gimp, and his aerial game is kind of meh other than fair, he may very well have been this games MK.

So, here is what I propose we do.. We all tweet Daddy Sakurai videos of Diddy's combos. When he sees he accidentally left something that looks like Melee in the game, we'll get a version 1.05.

I thought that of ZSS too,but now my Marth is sort of like a ZSS slayer. I don't really have any specific strategy against her,but I don't lose to here anymore using Marth, unless they spam zair....then I can't get anywhere near her to punish anything...

Japan doesnt even have their wii u version yet and its already been shown that sakurai attends japanese tournies.

There will be alot more patches. Be careful what you wish for. You never know what a developer is thinking. Marth might get nerfed. You never know.

Well I don't think he will, because Marth has already been nerfed to hell from brawl. He doesn't suck,but he lost a lot of what made him good, which was his range and auto cancel aerials. I don't see anything about Marth that should be nerfed.

 

[Shaya]

HIS RANGE WASN'T NERFED, IT WAS IN MOST CASES BUFFED.

Please, don't be an idiot that proliferates something you've never bothered to check yourself and have definitely never heard from anyone in this board you should be respecting the words of.

 

[Random4811]

Just to clarify, I was joking with the last bit. I do think Diddy is kind of unbalanced given he has some insanely unfair combo potential compared to the rest of the cast. If he doesn't get nerfed, I think we'll be seeing other characters being buffed.

I was very salty in my post above, though, because the person who I was playing against was an otherwise trash player. They got bodied as the other characters they played as, like, completely. (I got a freshman 3 stock against their Lucario. That should tell you something about how good they were, considering Lucario gives Marth plenty of problems.) However, when they switched to Diddy, they absolutely destroyed me. I got bodied the first two matches, and then managed to take a stock off every subsequent match. I nearly won the last match, we were both in the 130% range. It makes Diddy look like a mindless character, like anyone with a small amount of skill can pick him up and body people left and right.

 

[TheGoldMan]

Anyone think Marth will actually get buffed in an update? I'm quite disapointed how bad he actually is now. All his aerials have landing lag, his sword got shorter, he has no invisible hitbox on his fsmash, and he seems a little bit slower. The only buff I have heard about him was his up throw. I tried to main him in this game because I mained him in Brawl but I honestly can't do it.

 

[Zano]

uthrow didn't get buffed, rage just exists

 

[kj22]

Tipping with Marth's fsmash feels sooooo good. Especially with rage. Like I *want* to be in rage mode so I can kill people at 50 (exaggerating).
Is its bkb more on Marth's fsmash then in brawl? I feel like people are actually dying when I hit then then vs in brawl where they would usually survive (esp if they had a double jump to help momentum cancel)
I'm probably just tippering at higher percent.

 

[Shaya]

Fsmash tipper definitely kills significantly earlier than it did in Brawl, even at no rage I'm pretty sure.

 

[Locuan]

Well, kj22 added rage to the FSmash. Shaya kinda-ish subtracted rage. What would happen if we divide the Fsmash by rage?
I'm bored today please ignore me if necessary.

 

[kj22]

Combined with landing traps this is good, very, very good. I like outright kills vs edge guarding to death/ledge trapping kills.

The threat to be able to end a stock from anywhere on the stage is delicious.

Each day I play Marth I feel better about him.

Next step: buying a Wii u :/

 

[Owangepuffs]

Fsmash tipper kills at ludicrously low %. I've nabbed kills from 50-70% with it at only 50% myself (so rage wasn't too high).

Personally I find the stupid high kill power of Marth's tip to be superfluous and I have a hunch it's Namco/Sakurai's justification for gutting like, every other aspect of the character.

"Hey guys you can sometimes kill with a tipper fsmash at 50% maybe! Better Nerf everything else to compensate!" Bleh.

 

[kj22]

Lmao I'm more okay with that then I should be

Why?

Because shieldbreakerrrr(: they wanna shield too much? Shield breaker. Roll? Pivot grab/(up smash is my favorite way to punish rolls). Jump? Stutter step fsmash/short hop fair.

Sounds amazing on paper buy only really happens like this on the ledge. Shieldbreaker right as an oppenent gets up from the ledge is deadllllyyy.


Jk I want brawl marth back

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

HIS RANGE WASN'T NERFED, IT WAS IN MOST CASES BUFFED.

Please, don't be an idiot that proliferates something you've never bothered to check yourself and have definitely never heard from anyone in this board you should be respecting the words of.

I'm sowwy I have never heard anybody besides a few people say his range was not nerfed. Though to me his sword just looks a lot shorter and it looks like his moves have less range,but I'm pretty sure most of the Marth players here are much better with him than I am.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Yeah F-smash is godly when tipped. Every time I see the hitlag, I smirk because I know I've tipped and that my opponent is probably gonna go flying.

 

[Shaya]

Jk I want brawl marth back

Just imagine the sweet sweet embrace of a 24 frame auto cancel on forward air.

I'm sowwy I have never heard anybody besides a few people say his range was not nerfed. Though to me his sword just looks a lot shorter and it looks like his moves have less range,but I'm pretty sure most of the Marth players here are much better with him than I am.

It's all good~

 

[kj22]

Just imagine the sweet sweet embrace of a 24 frame auto cancel on forward air.



It's all good~

Sounds like a dream come true.
Playing smash 4 Marth makes me appreciate brawl Marth so much more.

 

[Owangepuffs]

Playing Smash 4 Marth makes you appreciate every Marth more, lol.

Marth just feels... needlessly restricted, and every time I wonder why, I think back to a whiiiile ago when Marth was first announced and remember "hey guys we decided to buff shield breaker and strengthen the tip of his sword" and me thinking "end will, this will not" because you don't just announce buffs for a consistently high-top tier placing character without some sort of cost.

Edit: my apologies for the whinin'. I'm still using this character. Just voicing my thoughts. I will say that subbing Pit spoils me to a great degree though.

 

[Random4811]

You can kill at 20% with enough rage near ledge with tipper Fsmash. I've done it a few times. Its impressive.

 

[Shaya]

Anyway, here I thought i'd put my previous thoughts into numbers (with some refinements)

Jab

(6%) HITBOX HORIZONTAL DISPLACEMENT: 6.5 ⇒ 6.7
IASA: 29 ⇒ 27​

Normalise sword disjoint, return Brawl IASA.

Dash Attack

(12%) HITBOX HORIZONTAL DISPLACEMENT: 6.5 ⇒ 6.7​

Normalise sword disjoint.

Up Tilt

IASA: 42 ⇒ 36​

Midway between Melee and Brawl's . This move has 50% less damage than those two games to compensate, obviously.

Down Tilt

(10%) HITBOX SIZE: 2.7 ⇒ 3.5
(10%) HITBOX KNOCKBACK GROWTH: 50 ⇒ 40​

Normalise sword disjoint/hitbox size. Reduce growth on tipper to Brawl levels.

Neutral Air

(2%) HITBOX DAMAGE: 2% ⇒ 3%
(3%) HITBOX DAMAGE: 3% ⇒ 4%
(8%) HITBOX DAMAGE: 8% ⇒ 9%​

8% ⇒ 9% untippered, 11% ⇒ 13% tippered. Notion is to make it slightly safer on shield. Could do with slightly more damage still (it did 18% in brawl for a tidbit; it needn't do that much).

Forward Air

AUTOCANCEL FRAME: 36 ⇒ 31​

Take Brawl Bair's AC frame, knock it on forward air. Fair just needs to be slightly less restrictive in use, that's all.

Back Air

(12%) HITBOX BASE KNOCKBACK: 40 ⇒ 50
AUTOCANCEL FRAME: 32 ⇒ 31​

Restore Brawl Bair's AC frame. Increase base knockback on tipper for slightly better kill power.

Up Air

(12%) HITBOX KNOCKBACK GROWTH: 84 ⇒ 90
AUTOCANCEL FRAME: 38 ⇒ 26​

Restore Brawl/Melee Uair's AC frame; which due to short hop length differences still means we cannot SH FF Uair AC, but a lot more leeway in use is given with this either way. I give no ****s; Diddy Kong's up air exists (WITH A FRAME 15 AUTO CANCEL); ZSS literally stole our Brawl Uair. Robin's is 27. Slightly more growth for killing.

Down Air

AUTOCANCEL FRAME: 54 ⇒ 47​

This is just Brawl's AC frame; it likely is not sufficient for AC on platforms, but would be for full hop fast falls. If it were changed to 40 Marth could SH Dair AC 'perfectly', and I honestly think it should do.

Dancing Blade

TIPPER HITBOX ANGLE: 92 ⇒ 60 (X - 30ish)
FLUB HITBOX ANGLE: 78 ⇒ 50 (X - 30ish)​

So why does it **** up? Hitbox angles are all pushing people further upwards than in Brawl by a few degrees on nearly every strike it seems (some even pushing behind our heads.. where DB doesn't hit...). Knockback growth on most hits seems to be significantly higher as well, except on some third strikes. It seems that Sakurai wants us to do two strikes of DB into a follow up, but the frame data I'm pretty sure isn't in our favour at all to ever get a follow up... At the expense of Aerial DB1 into follow ups, KBG culls would give us a functioning DB, but eh, I think just making knockback angles to push forward rather than up/behind us could be sufficient?
Down Throw

DAMAGE: 5 ⇒ 4​

Up Throw

DAMAGE: 4⇒ 5​

Lollipop/sweets 'change'. Would make dthrow a combo throw for longer, and up throw in turn would become a slightly better kill move. Considering the correlations of throw damage to knockback on every other character, it makes sense.

 

[kj22]

Shaya you put in so much work.

When you place this game do you see characters or just a bunch of frame and random numbers floating around?(;

Just from playing marth he feels nonfluid and awkward, and as shaya showed the numbers behind his moved don't make sense.
DB not fully connecting really irks me. And the fact that marth has to be extremely close to the ledge to hit ppl hanging from it? (Let me know of I'm wrong)

It could be because of his move set/I'm not playing fast enough/different buffer window/game engine, but he feels slower.


Hmm you mentioning aerial db1 got me thinking. If it hits a grounded oppwnent, guaranteed follow up correct? If it hits a shielding opponent, do we have enough time to jump away? More importantly, can we throw out a shieldbreaker to potentially break a nonhealty shield?
I'm guessing rising db1 misses short characters?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Aerial db1 on shield is a gimmick and will get you bodied fast.

 

[Akumetsu]

Finally somewhat used to Marth in this game... yeeeh, my Brawl Main is back... not as main though, but he's back.

 

[Shaya]

Aerial DB1 def can't really afford to hit shields, although you can get a second aerial out before you land.

DB1 into stuff like uair starts working at around 100%ish.
This would be fine/justify ****ing up the full combo, IF the move actually hit people (I swear the range is shortened in the air or something).

Yeah, I would hope that with that change, Marth could dtilt people on the ledge without being on top of them.
Because he currently ... doesn't.

But eh, understanding things oft requires numbers. I had like 5 tabs open at once while drafting that.

 

[kj22]

Even if its not "safe", I'm looking at as more of a mix up, so it good to know I have that option in the bag.

How many frames is d-tilt to shieldbreaker? Does that break full shields?

 

[Locuan]

Long day today. Regardless, I am officially going to APEX. I do not know if to actually compete yet but I will play friendlies like crazy. It would be nice to get to meet some of you there if you do attend.

 

[kj22]

I shall try...but money is always an issue ;/

I'm going to a tourny this saturday at ultra arcade in San Antonio, I look forward to telling you how I do (My mindset is to place top 5)