Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Yeah its horizontal knockback on the feet AND tipper now, vertical elsewhere.

 

[kj22]

Sooo if the oppenent ledge drop double jumps at marth amd he dsmashes them before they hit the ground they're probably dead?

 

[Owangepuffs]

Here's a neat little application with Marth I've had success with: dashing in the other direction. For whatever reason the distance on the start up of Marth's dash is huge. I've dodged a lot of attacks by simply dashing in the other direction, there's less commitment than a role since you can act sooner out of it at the obvious cost of no invincibility.

 

[_Malal]

Does each individual dancing blade hit still take up a stale move queue in this game?

You guys don't have a Q&A thread around so...

(Glad to see Marth boards still have that ballin board culture in terms of metagame stuff)

 

[Locuan]

Do you guys have any tricks for unlocking custom moves on Wii U? I'm having a tough time unlocking them when compared to the 3DS home button trick for classic mode.

 

[Foodies]

Yes, each individual DB hit still takes up a separate slot in the stale move queue.

Trophy Rush is still good if you are looking for a specific character's custom moves. Otherwise, I hear Smash Tour is good for gathering custom moves in general. Crazy Orders isn't that bad either if you don't lose. Alternatively if you have Amiibos you can just have them fight each other/CPUs and they'll farm custom items/moves - it's not very fast but it's a bonus for when you are busy doing non-Smash things.

As a side note: Dashing Assault is unlocked through beating the Falchion's Seal event on normal or hard.

 

[mc-clap-your-hands]

hi random people i don't know.first of all i have only used lucina in this game because i like her as a character from fe:awakening and have always mained marth so i turned to her in ssb4.but after a hour of getting my trash kicked around by this marth online i realised he is alot better then i thought he was(i thought he wasn't as good).i learned the hard way that he is REALLY good at edge guarding if you know what your doing.the guy i was battling ko'd me every time i ended up off stage(stupid atge spike dolfin slash and spike tipper down air)except when i was sheik.no madder what i did i couldn't get around it because he understood what every character could do and in turn made it near impossibe to get around.he also was good at punishing ANY MOVE with a little bit of lag(good amount of deaths at 90% because of tipped forward smash).also how he used his tippers well was really getting at me,because of the speed of his attacks(they feel slightly faster than lucina's atacks,marth's side speical is faster for sure).this makes me want to ask a question?is what he was doing to me basic marth stuff?is marth like sheik were edge guarding offstage is his best bet for ko's?i ask this because i have just fiddled around with lucina and i also never really learned how to use marth really well in melee or brawl

 

[Locuan]

@ mc-clap-your-hands Marth and Lucina both share a lot of similarities and they do have some differences. However, their attacks are the same in term of "speed". They both share the same frame data. In terms of their differences, there is a thread that highlights them.

Regarding your question. Going by your post, that Marth player seemed to have excellent spacing. That means he/she knew the maximum range of Marth's attacks and was able to punish you with a tipper move once you made a mistake. Marth and Lucina are both pretty capable of harassing opponents and or gimping them off stage, where B-air would be a perfect example.

On a more general note, it seems that the Marth player was simply capitalizing on your game-play patterns. From your post, you state that he/she was stage spiking you with dolphin slash and spiking you with D-airs. From that I can make the corresponding observation; are you always recovering from a low angle and close to the stage? If that is the case the Marth would be able to capitalize on that by using those two moves repeatedly until you changed your pattern of recovery.

 

[mc-clap-your-hands]

sorry to clarrify we did around 50 battles.its not that it happened often its that we did so many battles that it felt like every thing happened alot when it really didn't(i shoud've mentioned that i only got stage spiked a few times same with down air spike).thinking back he was mostly good at reading what move i was doing.i noticed it wasn't that i was predictibe its that he always noticed the start up of a laggy move as in he moved away as soon as the animation started.i must admit it was impressive to say the least.

also i appoligize because i explained it all wrong.i just never knew marth was good at edge guarding like that.i will admit marth was my best character in brawl and my second best in melee.i don't know why is said the "he was really good it hitting me with the tip part" thats just basic marth stuff.i apparently am good at that to.i was battling a freind with marth once and he told me i was good at spacing,i actually said i hit with the tip or i didn't hit at all(as in he sheilded,rolled,spot or air dodged)

i REALLY find it weird how it feels like marth and lucina have different speeds to things like there attacks when they don't have a difference.sorry i ramble alot

 

[Zano]

but, marth and lucina have the same speed in everything

 

[Locuan]

I believe mc-clap already understands that.

i REALLY find it weird how it feels like marth and lucina have different speeds to things like there attacks when they don't have a difference.sorry i ramble alot

 

[_Malal]

The difference in the tip hit lag modifier and slightly smaller/bigger frame might have something to do with it.

 

[mc-clap-your-hands]

The difference in the tip hit lag modifier and slightly smaller/bigger frame might have something to do with it.

sounds right

 

[Shaya]

It's also optical illusion stuff.

If you see Lucina run, and it looks as if her legs move faster, you think she's moving faster.
when she shield breaks, the motion she makes as it comes out is more pronounced (hand waving stuff) and that quick transition makes it look like the move comes out faster too.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

B-reversal shieldbreaker is VERY useful. I just played a match against someone and broke their shield TWICE by doing that, and it was completely uncharged, usually it doesn't break their shield if it is uncharged for me. First time I did it, they were at a low percent so I was stupid and I just did f tilt instead of starting a combo. The second time I killed them with a tipper f smash, and it felt SO GOOD to do!

 

[JaegerEC]

Uncharged shield breaker does break shield if it tippers, b-reverse of not. B-reversing with SB is really useful though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fought a Lucina in For Glory about 8 matches. I felt bad. Her spacing was good, but that only helped the Hero-King. I was getting f-smash/U-smash tippers at 100 and killing. Conversely I was living until 140ish or more because she could not seal the stock. I was definitely the stronger player, but wow risk vs reward is NEVER on her side.

One match she had me at about 130 and she was at 75. Caught her with the tipper.

Smh. I know he was salty.

 

[Locuan]

I can imagine. It is never good to play against Marth as Lucina.

I still need to figure out how to fix latency issues. Sometimes there's no lag, sometimes it spikes hard. I've assigned static IP, etc. Still do not know what to do to improve it.

On my side of things, I faced a Mario and a TL today. The Mario player was solid. I had no idea down throw to up-b can combo. Does it? Out of seven matches, I played one as Marth and the other six as Lucina. I won 4 out the 7. The Marth game went to Sudden Death and I lost. I kept capitalizing on his rolls behind me and the one or two aerials he would risk without spacing. That usually sealed the match.

The TL player was pretty much a beginner. However, that showed me how much I still need to learn. I did not know the match-up at all, and dealing with projectiles is still difficult for me. I played mostly Marth here. The first match we played he just spammed projectiles and forward smashed my approaches. And that sealed the deal for the first stock. The second stock I used it as an observation tool basically. I wanted to see his patterns when I tried different approaches. Turns out he would just forward smash around 70% of them and the others just roll. After I had lost that match I took those notes to the next five and subsequently beat him. This forced, I guess, a psychological effect on the player since he started to drop the projectile spam and started approaching me. This was in my favor significantly. Shield grabbing unsuccessful aerials, punishing rolls from behind with tipper d-smash. Regardless, I still need to practice.

 

[Shaya]

Fought a Lucina in For Glory about 8 matches. I felt bad. Her spacing was good, but that only helped the Hero-King. I was getting f-smash/U-smash tippers at 100 and killing. Conversely I was living until 140ish or more because she could not seal the stock. I was definitely the stronger player, but wow risk vs reward is NEVER on her side.

One match she had me at about 130 and she was at 75. Caught her with the tipper.

Smh. I know he was salty.

It's very likely to be her worst match up in the game tbh. I've already made my thoughts about this in the match up thread we had but it's just disgustingly bad for her in every way.
They're the same character in every way, yet at the same spacing that both characters require Marth's doing 25% better on every thing. That's so silly really.

 

[Random4811]

I was helping my friend with his ness and sonic (general critique, he wants to Fsmash every chance he gets because its satisfying and 90% of the time its never his best option) and I was doing so incredibly well that I was barely touching my DS.
Then suddenly something changed. I dont know what, but I whiffed a counter on Sonics Usmash. everything was downhill from there. Every match after, I'd either barely win because for some reason counter on Sonics Usmash suddenly stopped working, or I'd lose because he'd get me with that damn Usmash every chance he got. (I swear, every time I got hit by it I only became more salty.)
We played for 2 hours. it was 26-41 kills in his favor. I dont know what happened. Does this happen to you guys? Can you suddenly no longer play Marth worth **** when you get a little peeved?

Also, it turns out I'm awesome with Captain Falcon, but almost exclusively when I am mad.

 

[Locuan]

This game relies greatly on one's mental state. If for some reason you lose focus you will go incredibly downhill from there. I guess the best example I can give is from my most recent Melee tournament. When I SD, I would get so mad at myself that I would usually just stop giving my all in the match. The reason? I would stay thinking about the stock I gave up to SD and what the match could have been if I had not done so. Turns out that does not matter because I did SD so no reason to get worked up because of that.

Regardless, on the first match of the tournament I mentioned, I SD'd not once but three times against a really good Shiek player. I took the spawn time to take a few deep breaths and calm down. After that, I wrecked the Shiek for the next four stocks. I did end up losing but not before letting him know that I am still pretty much dangerous.

So the point I'm making is that yea anger just destroys the ability of one to think straight throughout the match. So there is a high probability that it affected your ability to play.

I really have no match-up experience against Sonic

 

[Random4811]

This game relies greatly on one's mental state. If for some reason you lose focus you will go incredibly downhill from there. I guess the best example I can give is from my most recent Melee tournament. When I SD, I would get so mad at myself that I would usually just stop giving my all in the match. The reason? I would stay thinking about the stock I gave up to SD and what the match could have been if I had not done so. Turns out that does not matter because I did SD so no reason to get worked up because of that.

Regardless, on the first match of the tournament I mentioned, I SD'd not once but three times against a really good Shiek player. I took the spawn time to take a few deep breaths and calm down. After that, I wrecked the Shiek for the next four stocks. I did end up losing but not before letting him know that I am still pretty much dangerous.

So the point I'm making is that yea anger just destroys the ability of one to think straight throughout the match. So there is a high probability that it affected your ability to play.

I really have no match-up experience against Sonic

Marth is hard to play when angry. He requires so much thought and precision. I can still play when mad though, which is the weird part. I've never got this bad before.

The Captain on the other hand... I dont know what it is about him, but I played him near flawlessly towards the end when I was so pissed I wanted to break something. Its the kind of rage that starts small, and then surmounts into something huge and out of control, and I dont know why.

 

[Shaya]

If you're off by 1 or 2 frames with Marth, things go to ****. It's that simple.
At the tippity top level, this character cannot afford to MISTIME anything, let alone 'hit something' (so easy to find power shields at top level if you're predictable).

The effect of really only having 'single frame' hitboxes for every situation you would want to use an attack.

 

[Locuan]

This post will be slightly off topic, but you and your terminology Shaya. I tried to convince myself to not use "safeish" and now you add tippity top to the list. Yep I'm screwed, tippity top and safeish have been added to my vocabulary.

Trying to get back on track, I can understand why he would have trouble with Marth now. Additionally, looking through the frame data, a great number of C. Falcon's move's multiple ranges for active hit-boxes.

Spoiler

Uair
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Total: 7.0

Bair
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 16.0
Total: 6.0

etc.

Did I understand this correctly?

 

[Shaya]

Well, a lot of animations have moving limbs/bones, but they're usually active in a certain area. Marth's attacks are arcs and the hitboxes are only attached to the sword, for every frame, there's a lot of space which you've "lost" that the move won't hit at anymore.

This post will be slightly off topic, but you and your terminology Shaya. I tried to convince myself to not use "safeish" and now you add tippity top to the list. Yep I'm screwed, tippity top and safeish have been added to my vocabulary.

My deepest apologies!_! You don't need to get so uppity about it
It's my fault that my vocabulary isn't good enough to cover the niche 'notions' that exist (within my mind)
Like when I say tippity top with Marth, I'm talking like 2-3 players in the world who are that much of a Marth slayer that you cannot **** up against.
Safeish is just... 'kinda safe', however you'd like to coin it. Nothing in this game is safe, so I'm kinda using a redundant word in the first place, but telling people everything is unsafe doesn't necessarily gel with people's mentalities (sure didn't with me).

 

[Locuan]

That's perfect vocabulary in my opinion. I do the same thing with Spanish sometimes.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Basically, the hit-boxes correlate to the sword on Marth, when on other characters the hit-boxes and hurt-boxes can overlap. So basically, when Marth uses a move there are a specific number of frames when it can hit but after that he is just a sitting duck. However, when regarding other characters do you mean that they will be safeish when they throw a move because their hit-boxes and hurt-boxes would overlap or is it something else? Would those frames still be active?

 

[Zano]

I'll put everything he said into something super simple

Hit the other guy with the pointy end of your mighty falchion blade or you're going to have a bad time

 

[Locuan]

I understand that from the Marth side. What I want to understand is the comparison he makes against other characters. I do want to get into the technicalities of the game. I do not want to remain having general knowledge on things.

 

[Shaya]

Most character's back airs or neutral airs (for example) hit in a certain area, while Marth's hitboxes hit generally in a much larger area. However, those hitboxes don't linger or persist where the sword isn't, and the hitboxes on the sword are small enough only to cover it.

So when you fair someone, in the 3 frames it has active you have a 40-ish degree angle, a 0 degree angle and [gah] -40 degree angle. When I use Marth fair I'm literally planning which frame I'm hitting people with. They're above me? Well that's only one frame my move does that, below me? Only one frame where it does that.

So precision is extremely important, and being even a frame or two off is enough to no longer be consistent with the character. In another way this is also helpful to one's mentality of "what's going wrong", you can likely easily identify that you're either swinging your sword too early or too late just by 'how" things are whiffing/getting punished.

The only moves that aren't "limited" like this on Marth are Neutral Air and Up Smash.

 

[FlAlex]

I noticed that Marth's Bair causes him to turn around mid-jump but looks identical to his Fair. Is there anything special about Marth's Bair?

 

[Shaya]

It comes from below instead of from above... pretty obvious one.

 

[xNaught]

I noticed that Marth's Bair causes him to turn around mid-jump but looks identical to his Fair. Is there anything special about Marth's Bair?

I've found that the most reliable part of this attack is behind Marth and slightly above or right at his head level. Can kill if you land a strong hit near the edge of a stage. It's best used for edgeguarding. Hang onto the ledge, drop down, jump and do a rising b-air. If you steal a ledge from someone and you're acting quickly, you can surprise them with a b-air as well.

I wish it was as good at covering Marth's back as it was in Melee/Brawl. Jumping out of a shield and using b-air is a bit tricky now, as the lower part of the swing seems to be really close to Marth's legs, making it hard to hit with.

 

[Locuan]

Online tournament recap:
Only won the first set against a Shiek/Falcon. Second set, I lost against a Robin/Shiek (he ended up winning the tournament). Three stocked by the Robin... Next set was against a Mario. I'll have to watch the replays again today. Eh, I still think I have things that I'm not understanding at the mechanical level. As such I am not executing that correctly. I have found myself airdodging into the ground a lot due to trying to tech pre-emptively or because I am used to wave-landing a lot in Melee. Punished because of that due to the 22 or so frames of landing lag. I shield a lot too. People just dash grab me all day. I am used to not rolling a lot due to previous experience as well. And rolls this time, while punishable, are good to use as well. There must be a lot of other things as well. I'll try to get some of those replays uploaded.

 

[Siege368]

Hey guys, I've mostly been lurking over the years, but with all the Smash I've been playing now it seems like a good time to jump into the discussion.

I've been playing marth since melee (not super competitively) but I've been struggling with him a lot in smash 4. Does anybody have any general advice for how I can press my advantage when I'm ahead? It just seems very difficult to continually apply pressure, be it against characters who can zone me with projectiles or characters who are simply more aggressive than I am (I.e. diddy, yoshi, ness). I understand that fair is not what it used to be, but I definitely feel a little lost trying to pressure with anything else.

 

[_Malal]

Why is upthrow such a good lazy kill move in this game.

When bad smash bros ensues on both chars last stock/moderately high % Grab -> Upthrow is so reliable it hurts. Is rage KB growth that powerful?

 

[Random4811]

So, I've known crouch canceling was a thing in this game for a while now. However, I haven't actually started using it until recently. I've been able to some decently interesting stuff, but do you guys have any suggestions for good follow-ups from crouch canceling a low hitstun move? A few times I've been able to get the dtilt, but I'm talking more midrange, like with Pikachu's thundershock. I've noticed that crouch canceling it is more useful than blocking it- probably due to the shieldstun being possibly higher than the hitstun (unless I'm just imagining things)- but I can never seem to reliably do something useful after. SH fair or SH nair/SHFF nair don't really do well enough in that specific instance, because Pikachu has the advantage.

This was all against CPU's on the bus today, but I meet my training partner tonight for some games, so I'm hoping to find some better application for it, because I'm sure he won't be as robotically good about reacting to it. Even higher level players seem to forget about it, I was watching parts of the Melee Iron Man 2 charity stream Mango and M2K did a while back, and M2K is really good about utilizing crouch canceling. I didn't realize how useful it was until then, and it seems about as good as it was in Melee here. (don't quote me on that, I haven't gotten into competitive Melee yet. I probably won't unless I can find a working copy of it.)

Edit: Is anyone else infuriated by how impossible dash dancing is on the 3DS? I wonder if it'd be easier with a controller grip. Does anyone here have one that could confirm/deconfirm this?

 

[FlAlex]

Hey guys, I've mostly been lurking over the years, but with all the Smash I've been playing now it seems like a good time to jump into the discussion.

I've been playing marth since melee (not super competitively) but I've been struggling with him a lot in smash 4. Does anybody have any general advice for how I can press my advantage when I'm ahead? It just seems very difficult to continually apply pressure, be it against characters who can zone me with projectiles or characters who are simply more aggressive than I am (I.e. diddy, yoshi, ness). I understand that fair is not what it used to be, but I definitely feel a little lost trying to pressure with anything else.

From my short time maining Marth in Sm4sh, I can tell you from my newbish experience that this Marth is just not the Marth you grew with. His moves don't have that fluid motion to them so it's difficult to keep the offense. I think he's best played like little mac in that you play conservatively and wait until the opponent makes a mistake, then capitalize on it. Keep the opponent just out of tipper range until they make a mistake. For campers you'll just have to dance around their projectiles until an opportunity arises. For the rush-down orientated, keep your cool and predict where they are going to be. Use Marth's range to beat them out of their speed.

again, I'm not a pro with Marth and no longer main him so I suggest taking my post with a grain of salt and throw it out if it contradicts better players.

Best of luck!

 

[Random4811]

Hey guys, I've mostly been lurking over the years, but with all the Smash I've been playing now it seems like a good time to jump into the discussion.

I've been playing marth since melee (not super competitively) but I've been struggling with him a lot in smash 4. Does anybody have any general advice for how I can press my advantage when I'm ahead? It just seems very difficult to continually apply pressure, be it against characters who can zone me with projectiles or characters who are simply more aggressive than I am (I.e. diddy, yoshi, ness). I understand that fair is not what it used to be, but I definitely feel a little lost trying to pressure with anything else.

Nair is sort of your new fair. Its lowish lag and the double hit is nice. What was once SHFF fair is now SHFF nair. Its a good move. Fair is still good though, don't get me wrong. Its still good for spacing and whatnot.

For projectile zoners, you really just need to either SH over them, or walking shield them. There is no other way around it. If you get close enough, you can counter their projectile and get the spacing in your favor for long enough to be able to capatalize on it if you are quick. Or you could just walk->shield all the way to them and then dtilt. Dtilt is your best friend. Is pretty cool guy, sets up traps and doesn't afraid of anything. I recommend reading Emblem Lord and Eternal Flame's threads about Marth's general play and combos.

He can be played aggressively, just not as a rushdown character. Then again, he was never really a rushdown character. Its all about spacing and timing, and once you're good at that, you'll have an easier time pressuring and playing aggressively.

 

[Zano]

I just realized something about bair....

Now that Lucina exists, we aren't the only character that turns around completely after we do it.

We lost our individuality

 

[kj22]

The thing is he can barely safely apply pressure anymore without committing, and the cool down on his moves are horrid. All it takes is one feint for your oppenent to get you to commit to something that can be punished. Playing safe is no longer "a way" to go its the only way to go.

Problem with that is the oppenent is controlling the match for the majority of the neutral. They decide when to approach, because you can't.

A sowrdsman who can't approach or force others to approach...why sakurai why


Another thing: people are saying SHFF Nair is "lagless" with 11 frames of landing lag? That's definitely not lagless lol

Of course probably a little pessimistic because all I've been playing against diddy and that my makes me realize Marth weaknesses so much. I've never said "wow" I wish my character could be like x jist from playing against them. Thats probably how ganon mains felt in brawl watching metaknight, "i wish i could glide, let alone have safe approach options" haha.
Maybe brawl Marth just spoiled me :/

Playing against everyone else (though I suppose sonic/rosalina are/will give us trouble from what I hear) seems doable. It doesn't seems like there's a large disadvantage vs anyone like there's is diddy, having to severely outplay your oppenent, which will only get harder the more competent they are.