Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[warionumbah2]

I just got onto the thread when I posted that. Why are you so rude?

I'm sorry. :[

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well I ended up getting 3rd. I lost to a wft/robin and my friends diddy. Its funny because Ive been coaching him for about 2 weeks now and today he finally beat me. He did play very well.

Still struggling on who to use vs diddy. And how to beat rolling consistently. I probably should play more patiently, that's probably the issue. Being too aggressive.

My set vs the robin/wft will be uploaded (mobile video) by some guy named crazyjump fish.

I thought sonic was the answer to diddy, but he played very patient and I couldn't get in. Ughhh its so frustrating...I have to work so hard to get any damage and he does one grab and says screw your 10 reads.
I felt I lost vs wft due to lack of my experience (don't have a Wii u, tournaments are my practice), so I challenged him after the match and 2 stocked him as marth.

Duddy is still a very real issue...safe aeriels, great grab, great projectile...

He doesn't have to take much risks, because if he's in shield at worst he'll get grabbed, and nobody really has half the stuff he has out of grab AND can get the grab as well as he can.

I tried zoning him out, And wed stand there looking at each other knowing yup you gotta approach Marth your just gonna corner yourself against a diddy with a banana in hand that can literally cover all your options.

The reward for diddy playing so patient is ridiculous...so safe, with so much reward.
And in the hands of a good player? smh

For every 5 reads you do as marth, Diddy can make up in one.

Ik the hate diddy train has been beat to death, but geez...that character is stupid lol

At least I made some money $~$

You don't have a wii u and you placed 3rd losing only to a top tier user that you trained yourself and to match-up inexperience.

And.....you doubt the hero-king? lol.

Logic...what is it?

Ok, but seriously you did very well. Marth is mid tier imo and you once again showed he is viable. Mid tiers dont win tournies on their own. Find a counter pick character and get good with them. Crying doesn't get you tournament wins. Hard work and understanding the game is what does.

We should be at the point where the ******** is at an end. Btw Diddy is a joke. You want to see a REAL top tier? Check out this nonsense.

This is a TRUE god tier that is unstoppable. It's all relative bro. Diddy has screwed up risk vs reward, but thats it.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

but if zss grabs you you don't die...
what moves is she doing? you can probably DB1 her before they even come out. Are you using dtilt to stuff approaches? if she's approaching aerially just retreat sh nair/fair. If you feel like your going to get grabbed from across the stage spotdodge.

I can DI out of her combos, I just get pissed about how much range she has on just about everything. I cannot punish her, because her moves have like 0 end lag and so much range that you can't get close enough for either an approach or punish. They usually predict my DI and just hit me with two up airs in a row.

 

[kj22]

You don't have a wii u and you placed 3rd losing only to a top tier user that you trained yourself and to match-up inexperience.

And.....you doubt the hero-king? lol.

Logic...what is it?

Ok, but seriously you did very well. Marth is mid tier imo and you once again showed he is viable. Mid tiers dont win tournies on their own. Find a counter pick character and get good with them. Crying doesn't get you tournament wins. Hard work and understanding the game is what does.

We should be at the point where the *****ing is at an end. Btw Diddy is a joke. You want to see a REAL top tier? Check out this nonsense.

This is a TRUE god tier that is unstoppable. It's all relative bro. Diddy has screwed up risk vs reward, but thats it.

I know I did "well", but i feel like I should've done better because player skill wise I was better than the two. In my mind, I should've got 1st. I understand why I lost, but since I didn't lose to a "better player" it

I don't doubt marth in any mu besides diddy tight now. This is the only mu in the history of smash that I doubt Marths viability in a mu and I look at another character and say wow he's dumb.
It may be because I come from a brawl marth perspective he doesn't have any hard counters, and you could solo marth.
I think marth has a fighting chance vs anybody not named diddy.
People saying Marth is midtier/whatever I disagree with, relative to diddy brawl probably relative to the caste I don't think so.
Sonic is my counter pick character ATM.

And top tier is relative. In smash terms diddy is definitely up there, especially because in risk/reward diddy takes the crown.

I don't mind using another character vs diddy. (Actually been using sonic) but the larger issue still remain, having to severely outplay the oppenent in order to win.

 

[kj22]

I can DI out of her combos, I just get pissed about how much range she has on just about everything. I cannot punish her, because her moves have like 0 end lag and so much range that you can't get close enough for either an approach or punish. They usually predict my DI and just hit me with two up airs in a row.

What are you getting hit by? Side b? Don't be afraid to dash shield then throw out a punish/grab of your oppenets constantly attacking your approaches.
Describe more what happens. It just seems like your struggling in the neutral game.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

What are you getting hit by? Side b? Don't be afraid to dash shield then throw out a punish/grab of your oppenets constantly attacking your approaches.
Describe more what happens. It just seems like your struggling in the neutral game.

I get hit by just about EVERYTHING. I never try to run up to them and shield,because I just block their laser and then get grabbed before I even react to blocking the laser. The only time I feel I have the advantage is when I am edgegaurding her,but it is hard to land any good hits on her, because her moves are so safe. If I get close I just get grabbed whether I am being aggressive or trying to force them to whiff a move and punish. Marth is probably a bad MU for her,but I am determined to figure out how to CRUSH this character with Marth whether it is a bad MU or not.

 

[kj22]

I get hit by just about EVERYTHING. I never try to run up to them and shield,because I just block their laser and then get grabbed before I even react to blocking the laser. The only time I feel I have the advantage is when I am edgegaurding her,but it is hard to land any good hits on her, because her moves are so safe. If I get close I just get grabbed whether I am being aggressive or trying to force them to whiff a move and punish. Marth is probably a bad MU for her,but I am determined to figure out how to CRUSH this character with Marth whether it is a bad MU or not.

Haha well I like your attitude.


Zss has a laggy grab if whiffed. After shooting her nuetral B, you have time to avoid whatever she tries to do you unless you got hit by it. Spotdodge if you think she's going to grab or upb out of shield or short hop fair. The point is to react quickly and not stay stuck in shiel, which you mentioning being grabbed a lot has be believing your doing.

Dash attack, fsmash, whiffed grab, jab(?) Are all moves that can be punished of the top of my head. The question is howru trying to punish? Fsmash is not a good answer unless its a super laggy move/hard read. Dancing blade, dsmash, up b, sh fair, dtilt, and jab are all fast punishes, db being the one of the bests.

 

[Random4811]

So, I was just playing on FG, and I met a Lucina. Nowi/Tiki colors. I thought "Okay, this should be easy." But she surprised me by going ham into me for two dancing blades. I was so mystified by why she thought that was her best approach that I let her hit me with another. It threw me off so much I accidentally SD'ed when avoiding her shield breaker spam on the ledge. Came back, nearly destroyed her. I laughed at how bad Lucina is at killing. Like, seriously, 165%? On the ledge? Go home. I ended up dying to a shield breaker I tried to counter. Then she started Tbagging.

Let me make a simple request to every decent human being ever. NEVER TBAG. YOU HAVE TAUNTS. Tbagging is so disrespectful. It gets my blood boiling.

So, next match, what does she do? Tbag for like, 5 whole seconds. I tbag back, and she tries to approach. The match was pretty well one sided. She got a slight lead at the beggining, but she got trashed for the rest of the game. Finally got my stock down after 2 minutes and 125%. I tbagged the entire time. I tbagged every chance I got for as long as I got.

She rage quit. :3

I get hit by just about EVERYTHING. I never try to run up to them and shield,because I just block their laser and then get grabbed before I even react to blocking the laser. The only time I feel I have the advantage is when I am edgegaurding her,but it is hard to land any good hits on her, because her moves are so safe. If I get close I just get grabbed whether I am being aggressive or trying to force them to whiff a move and punish. Marth is probably a bad MU for her,but I am determined to figure out how to CRUSH this character with Marth whether it is a bad MU or not.

Never block her laser. Jump over it. It is SOO laggy. Its like, the easiest punish. Bait out her attacks, they all have pretty clear start ups. You could literally counter everything she throws out if you can see it coming. None of her moves give me any trouble. You just need to find a ZSS training partner, because the MU is not a problem.

 

[theleeryone]

I gat super angry at tbaggers. The level of actual, literal disrespect bothers me.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Never block her laser. Jump over it. It is SOO laggy. Its like, the easiest punish. Bait out her attacks, they all have pretty clear start ups. You could literally counter everything she throws out if you can see it coming. None of her moves give me any trouble. You just need to find a ZSS training partner, because the MU is not a problem.

I actually went to the ZSS boards to look for a partner. ATM I have not found a partner who is willing to go back to 3DS (cause I don't have a Wii U ). Thank you for the advice! I will try to incorporate this.

Haha well I like your attitude.


Zss has a laggy grab if whiffed. After shooting her nuetral B, you have time to avoid whatever she tries to do you unless you got hit by it. Spotdodge if you think she's going to grab or upb out of shield or short hop fair. The point is to react quickly and not stay stuck in shiel, which you mentioning being grabbed a lot has be believing your doing.

Dash attack, fsmash, whiffed grab, jab(?) Are all moves that can be punished of the top of my head. The question is howru trying to punish? Fsmash is not a good answer unless its a super laggy move/hard read. Dancing blade, dsmash, up b, sh fair, dtilt, and jab are all fast punishes, db being the one of the bests.

Thanks for both the advice and what you said about my attitude! I will also try to use this against ZSS. I try to punish her by either doing a d-throw to start a combo or just a d-tilt to move them back and then follow up with something else like a fair.

 

[FlAlex]

Hey, kj22

I can't seem to find that video you said a "crazyjump fish" on YT would upload. The one of you beating the WFT/Robin in that tourney you participated in.

Sorry if I sound persistent. I just really wanna see a good Marth in action!

 

[kj22]

Hey, kj22

I can't seem to find that video you said a "crazyjump fish" on YT would upload. The one of you beating the WFT/Robin in that tourney you participated in.

Sorry if I sound persistent. I just really wanna see a good Marth in action!

its actually funcrazyfish, and I don't believe he's uploaded them yet. I've been checking frequently throughout the day and no dice ;/

 

[Locuan]

It takes a while to upload stuff to Youtube especially depending on your upload speed, and quantity of videos.

 

[FlAlex]

Thanks kj22 and Loucan128 for the explanation.

I'll check back later tomorrow.

 

[Dissent]

Congratulations! Marth has something close to an AT
http://smashboards.com/threads/instant-ledge-hop-cancel-refurbished-at.381992/

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

There should be a MU thread for Marth. It should have us discuss the MUs for every character 1 by 1, and whenever we decide to talk about a new MU the OP will be edited to say whether a MU is good, bad, or neutral for Marth, and also go a little into detail on what you should and should not do in those MUs. Maybe I should make the thread? I don't know you guys tell me if we should have a MU thread and if I should make it.

 

[Shaya]

So I have to concede about something with Lucina, the people here in Socal thinks she's better than Marth, and eh, I ain't going to budge on that, but -

Forward Smash. As an OoS or anti-air hard punish, Lucina's forward smash is noticeably good if you're really on point with that move as a punish.

 

[kj22]

So I have to concede about something with Lucina, the people here in Socal thinks she's better than Marth, and eh, I ain't going to budge on that, but -

Forward Smash. As an OoS or anti-air hard punish, Lucina's forward smash is noticeably good if you're really on point with that move as a punish.

Why do they think she's better?
Marths fsmash is a stronger anti-air punish though, assuming good spacing.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

So I have to concede about something with Lucina, the people here in Socal thinks she's better than Marth, and eh, I ain't going to budge on that, but -

Forward Smash. As an OoS or anti-air hard punish, Lucina's forward smash is noticeably good if you're really on point with that move as a punish.

Crap, I forgot what OoS means. Anyways I think Lucina is better for people who don't space that much,but Marth is a lot better when it comes to spacing. I just fought a good Lucina player, and honestly I was kind of pissed when I got killed so easily by her side smash, because it requires no good spacing and it is such a strong kill move for her. They were definitely good,but I don't understand why they used a lot of spacing options yet they choose to use Lucina instead. Do you space a lot when you use Lucina or do you just focus on hitting people? Also, I was kind of salty fighting them, because I saw they were using Lucina so I was like "Oh hey! Marth VS Lucina! I'm going to taunt so that they can taunt back!" But no, instead they hit me mid taunt and later on when they got a kill they taunted me. Yeah, I have to be honest I get salty pretty easy. I kind of feel like if you interrupt someones opening taunt, you have forfeited your right to taunt after a kill. I know I am going to get a lot of hate for this,but that is just how I feel about Lucina and denying someone of a respectful opening taunt.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good for SoCal.

They are wrong.

Like, objectively incorrect based on the coding of the actual game.

 

[Shaya]

"All in the forward smash"

That's all I'm willing to give.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why are people jumping at lucina?

Walk. Block.

GG.

 

[Locuan]

The code states otherwise. I'd have to agree with Emblem Lord there.

Also, if you guys want a phone wallpaper, I used the renders from this thread (cleaning them up and minor edits) to make the following:

Spoiler

EDIT: From the pastebin:

Spoiler

Marth:
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 14.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 18.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 80
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 1440.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Lucina:
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 14.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.725
Max Hitbox BKB: 80
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 957.125
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

How can it be a better OoS? Because of their height? Cause if that's not the case that would mean they would have different frame data somewhere.

 

[Shaya]

It's range is the same, it's frame data is the same. I'm referring to the kill power of it.

I wasn't saying it's better than Marths per say, there just are scenarios in which Lucina's forward smash is going to be doing more than Marths.
I don't really consider it for her Up Smash or the likes.

 

[Foodies]

Just tested kill %s of untipped fsmashes because I was curious. This was done on BF's default CPU spawn location with no rage/DI. I walked as close to the CPU as possible without pushing them. In hindsight I should've chose FD so I could test tipped fsmash killing % too. Oh well.

Jiggs
Untipped Marth fsmash: 100%
Lucina fsmash: 82%

Bowser
Untipped Marth fsmash: 137%
Lucina fsmash: 108%

I can see Lucina's fsmash being a better OoS because no spacing is necessary, but I think any anti-airing use with fsmash should be spaced for a tipper in the first place.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel ftilt is the best AA they have and marths is definitely superior. But yes there will be times where lucinas fsmash is a more solid go to option because it takes less set up.

But one move doesnt make up for other serious flaws.

It doesnt matter. Only a small percentage of the competitive community understands frame data, forget about hitbox data, hitlag formulas, disjoints, ect.

Let people think what they want.

 

[Random4811]

Is punishing with Fsmash OoS really viable enough to state it as a plus for Luci? because honestly I'd rather use Marth's better options to punish OoS instead of trying to rely on a hard read for a kill that may be possible with no DI at a slightly earlier (no more then 30) %. And, I'm assuming this is on ledge and not mid stage? Because mid stage her kill percents are like, twice as garbage.

Crap, I forgot what OoS means. Anyways I think Lucina is better for people who don't space that much,but Marth is a lot better when it comes to spacing. I just fought a good Lucina player, and honestly I was kind of pissed when I got killed so easily by her side smash, because it requires no good spacing and it is such a strong kill move for her. They were definitely good,but I don't understand why they used a lot of spacing options yet they choose to use Lucina instead. Do you space a lot when you use Lucina or do you just focus on hitting people? Also, I was kind of salty fighting them, because I saw they were using Lucina so I was like "Oh hey! Marth VS Lucina! I'm going to taunt so that they can taunt back!" But no, instead they hit me mid taunt and later on when they got a kill they taunted me. Yeah, I have to be honest I get salty pretty easy. I kind of feel like if you interrupt someones opening taunt, you have forfeited your right to taunt after a kill. I know I am going to get a lot of hate for this,but that is just how I feel about Lucina and denying someone of a respectful opening taunt.

You need to space just as well as a Marth main, if not better as Lucina to play anywhere close to well with her. Her attacks are unsafe and her kill power is garbage. Mainly the first part, but the kill power thing is important. If you wall against her, as Emblem Lord said, she's finished. She cannot attack shields other than with SB or grab, or else she's gonna get punished pretty bad.

So, repeat, for all of you reading who still don't get this/ are new here: YOU CANNOT PLAY LUCINA AS A RUSHDOWN CHARACTER. YOU NEED TO SPACE.

Anyway, don't feel bad. There is a lot of animosity between Marth/Luci players because Luci players are convinced she is good (for some god awful reason) and feel they have to prove themselves. I told you my t-bagger Lucina story. I'll have to record that and share it with you all sometime. It was quite funny. I could taste her salt. Whenever they see a Marth, they try extra hard. When they get trashed, they try even harder. If they manage to get a win, they gloat like no other.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Is punishing with Fsmash OoS really viable enough to state it as a plus for Luci? because honestly I'd rather use Marth's better options to punish OoS instead of trying to rely on a hard read for a kill that may be possible with no DI at a slightly earlier (no more then 30) %. And, I'm assuming this is on ledge and not mid stage? Because mid stage her kill percents are like, twice as garbage.



You need to space just as well as a Marth main, if not better as Lucina to play anywhere close to well with her. Her attacks are unsafe and her kill power is garbage. Mainly the first part, but the kill power thing is important. If you wall against her, as Emblem Lord said, she's finished. She cannot attack shields other than with SB or grab, or else she's gonna get punished pretty bad.

So, repeat, for all of you reading who still don't get this/ are new here: YOU CANNOT PLAY LUCINA AS A RUSHDOWN CHARACTER. YOU NEED TO SPACE.

Anyway, don't feel bad. There is a lot of animosity between Marth/Luci players because Luci players are convinced she is good (for some god awful reason) and feel they have to prove themselves. I told you my t-bagger Lucina story. I'll have to record that and share it with you all sometime. It was quite funny. I could taste her salt. Whenever they see a Marth, they try extra hard. When they get trashed, they try even harder. If they manage to get a win, they gloat like no other.

Sorry! I am pretty ignorant on how the best way to play Lucina is, because I am one of the Marth players who doesn't ever use Lucina. I don't hate her as much as when she was first announced. I really don't hate her at all,but I am just kind of pissed that she is literally nothing but an easier to use Marth who is worse in nearly every way. Most of the players I have seen on the Lucina boards are pretty chill,but the Lucina players I run into online are pretty much just how you describe them. I don't get why they seem to have so much hate for Marth, I think it is sort of the opposite of why I hated her when she was announced. When she was first announced I was like "Great, a clone who is nearly IDENTICAL to Marth, unlike other clones who were at least very different (i.e. Dr.Mario, Ganondorf, and Wolf).

This kind of leads into a new question that I have been wondering for a WHILE now. Most Lucina players I have seen are female. Seeing this, it made me realize how most females fighting game players seem to always go for female characters to use. Why do they do this? It is not like guys only use male characters in fighting games (though I guess most characters are male in fighting games anyways), I know there are a lot of female players who use male characters,but it just seems extremely common to see females only use females in fighting games.

 

[Icyie]

I started playing Lucina myself, because I just came from playing FE:A right before playing smash.

Tried Marth because of a friend (who's a bit of a veteran).

Lucina just feels flimsy in comparison. Landing hits with Marth is more satisfying, and I actually feel like I have more control when I play Marth. Putting opponents where I want them, intentionally landing non-tippers (fair) to set stuff up.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

So guys what do you think about having an MU thread? I made a post about it earlier today,but you guys didn't really respond to it and just started talking about Lucina. Here is my post:

There should be a MU thread for Marth. It should have us discuss the MUs for every character 1 by 1, and whenever we decide to talk about a new MU the OP will be edited to say whether a MU is good, bad, or neutral for Marth, and also go a little into detail on what you should and should not do in those MUs. Maybe I should make the thread? I don't know you guys tell me if we should have a MU thread and if I should make it.

I'll give it some time if you guys agree on having one in case someone else does it,but if nobody does I will just make one. MIND YOU I am not as experienced as most of you guys here with Marth and just smash in general,but that is why I want us to discuss and decide what MUs are good, bad, or neutral, so that it will be based on what the majority of us think about the MUs. I probably won't contribute much to the discussions, just summarize what the majority of us think of the MU, what to do and not to do in the MU. So tell me, do you think we need or should have a MU thread?

 

[Zano]

This character sucks, I main Palutena now

 

[Random4811]

This character sucks, I main Palutena now

Can't tell if joke or..

So guys what do you think about having an MU thread? I made a post about it earlier today,but you guys didn't really respond to it and just started talking about Lucina. Here is my post:



I'll give it some time if you guys agree on having one in case someone else does it,but if nobody does I will just make one. MIND YOU I am not as experienced as most of you guys here with Marth and just smash in general,but that is why I want us to discuss and decide what MUs are good, bad, or neutral, so that it will be based on what the majority of us think about the MUs. I probably won't contribute much to the discussions, just summarize what the majority of us think of the MU, what to do and not to do in the MU. So tell me, do you think we need or should have a MU thread?

We ignored it because there IS a match-up thread. Mabye it should be stickied so it is easier to find? IDFK. SmashBoards is basically my first forum, so I'm learning all the general forum stuff from it. I dont know how you people decide to do things, I just play along and pretend to understand.

Sorry! I am pretty ignorant on how the best way to play Lucina is, because I am one of the Marth players who doesn't ever use Lucina. I don't hate her as much as when she was first announced. I really don't hate her at all,but I am just kind of pissed that she is literally nothing but an easier to use Marth who is worse in nearly every way. Most of the players I have seen on the Lucina boards are pretty chill,but the Lucina players I run into online are pretty much just how you describe them. I don't get why they seem to have so much hate for Marth, I think it is sort of the opposite of why I hated her when she was announced. When she was first announced I was like "Great, a clone who is nearly IDENTICAL to Marth, unlike other clones who were at least very different (i.e. Dr.Mario, Ganondorf, and Wolf).

This kind of leads into a new question that I have been wondering for a WHILE now. Most Lucina players I have seen are female. Seeing this, it made me realize how most females fighting game players seem to always go for female characters to use. Why do they do this? It is not like guys only use male characters in fighting games (though I guess most characters are male in fighting games anyways), I know there are a lot of female players who use male characters,but it just seems extremely common to see females only use females in fighting games.

I think most (read: A lot of) of Lucina's players are FE:A players, many of which who havent touched another FE game (I liked Awakening, but it isnt the best. It is broken as all hell. I liked Shadow Dragon more.) who have confirmation bias or just general bias twoards the character. There are still hundreds of them out there thinking Lucina is faster. Much of the Comp smash community seems to have been poisoned by their ignorance, as I get a lot of people asking "You main Marth? I thought Lucina was better."
And then I laugh at them.

I mean, a large portion Lucina's usage probably spawns from FE:A's success. The rest of it is probably some feminist mindset or just gender bias. (Don't shoot me, I've seen a number of old Marth mains saying that they'll pick Lucina up this time just because she is female, and then something about feminist stuff that I didnt pay attention to.)

I like playing as male characters I can identify with. I identify with Marth, for whatever reason (have since I was a boy playing Melee), so it just helps me play him. I've also always identified with Falcon (probably because he is so damn cool) so it was a no brainer to pick him up as my secondary.

 

[BatShark]

More of a style MU question, but...

Anyone have any thoughts on dealing with very patient, defensive players? *Not* dumb ones, but actual good players who aren't going to open themselves up for silly punishes for no reason. I find myself getting way too predictable against players who *never* approach and just feel completely stymied. I know it'll depend highly on character, but what's a good range to keep them at? What kind of situations should I be looking to create and with what moves?

 

[Random4811]

More of a style MU question, but...

Anyone have any thoughts on dealing with very patient, defensive players? *Not* dumb ones, but actual good players who aren't going to open themselves up for silly punishes for no reason. I find myself getting way too predictable against players who *never* approach and just feel completely stymied. I know it'll depend highly on character, but what's a good range to keep them at? What kind of situations should I be looking to create and with what moves?

This isnt a match-up question, it is an approach question.
Depends on the character. Generally I'd say just walk. Don't dash, but walk. You're still in neutral when you're walking, and your walking speed is the best in the game (you can nearly dash dance with your walk incase you were wondering how good.) So you can get to all of your quicker pokes pretty easy. Empty short hops as well, just to provoke the players to approach. If need by, you could walk up and try to bait a shield for you to grab, or a roll to punish.

 

[Zano]

I never joke

 

[Random4811]

Can someone test if the ledge get-up attack has a secret back hitbox?. I was playing a really good jigglypuff (I won 2-1) in FG, and in between the first and second match I was goofing with the Marth dummy I was practicing spacing on. We both ended up off stage, and I was just slightly above him. I got back onstage, and threw out something accidentally (wasnt meaning to at all), and I'm thinking it was get up attack. It came out too fast for it to be downsmash. Marth dummy was in the perfect position to get hit by this back hitbox, and was stagespiked. I was literally right on the ledge, so I am confused as to what it could have been.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is hard.
Other characters seem harder.
****.

 

[Foodies]

Ledge get-up attack does have a hitbox that can stagespike. It's happened to me too.

Marth is hard but he still does better than every other character I try to use.

 

[kj22]

More of a style MU question, but...

Anyone have any thoughts on dealing with very patient, defensive players? *Not* dumb ones, but actual good players who aren't going to open themselves up for silly punishes for no reason. I find myself getting way too predictable against players who *never* approach and just feel completely stymied. I know it'll depend highly on character, but what's a good range to keep them at? What kind of situations should I be looking to create and with what moves?

Play smart and patient yourself. They probably arent taking many risks themselves, so stay safe with your movement and watch their *defensive* habits. Empty hop into grab is very good against people who like to shield a lot but dont rolly predictably. Try dashing at them and just holding shield. What did they do? Did they spot dodge? Hold shield themselves? Roll? Roll backwards? Throw out a quick retreating aerial? Observe how they're reacting to your pressure/presence and plan your game plan accordingly. You don't have to run around throwing out moves, you can simply threaten space with your presence. Walking is perfect for this because you can do *anything* from it.

People who play like this with non/weak projectile characters/, try to get a lead early then don't approach. Literally sit there and watch them slowly realize... Hey there's actually a clock running and he could win by timeout if I don't get off my butt and do something. Watch them try to approach you and pick apart their habits. If they get in think to yourself okay how'd they get in? And think of a way to stuff that approach next time--you have a whole stock to think about it.

You asked what moves? Dtilt, jab, rising sh fair, sh DB1, and Rar bair are the quickest and safest moves to whiff with. As you approach (hopefully walking), you can safely throw out these moves and watch how your opponent reacts (assuming they rarely/never approach). Within the oppenets roll forward range, slight empty hop back and retreating full/short hop fair is a safe option you can use that again, you can watch how your opponent reacts. Of they're simply shielding unsjieldimg, empty hop to grab/dash grab will get them. Anything else they do watch and observe and think of ways to punish. If you can't get the punish (they roll backwards or something), walking forward to gain more stage control is your best bet. If they panick and roll into you when you get close to them, db to punish or pivot grab.

Oh and you do have shieldbreaker ;D


Diddys who play like this (patient, baiting) are scary.

 

[kj22]

Ledge get-up attack does have a hitbox that can stagespike. It's happened to me too.

Marth is hard but he still does better than every other character I try to use.

Have you tried pit? I did and thought he was too slow :/ I'm a big fan of sonic though, which is funny considering their vastly different play styles.