Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

Which is why if they are slightly lower than that, you might as well use Ftilt because that will combo then.

 

[Shaya]

If it combos into tipper at 154% on Marth with 0 rage:

@ 100% it should combo around 115%.
@ 150% it should combo around 83%

[that's using my rough rage calculation formula that applies relatively accurate to kill moves at least]

We should probably look at what percents untippered jab leads into things/what, that's likely more important. I see tipper jab at this stage and throw something out and get a hit basically, but with untippered I'm never too sure (and get airdodged awkwardly a lot).

 

[SilverForUbers]

Does anyone here want to have some matches? It would be cool to see other Marth mains play so I can learn from them.

 

[Chalice]

If you're fine with playing me then I'm down

I actually need to brush up on my Marth. I've been playing Ike lately but I always love to go back to Marth.

 

[SilverForUbers]

If you're fine with playing me then I'm down

I actually need to brush up on my Marth. I've been playing Ike lately but I always love to go back to Marth.

If you're still here, I'll send you a friend request.

Edit: Oops, you want to host?

 

[Chalice]

You host. Also are we doing a Marth ditto?

 

[SilverForUbers]

You host. Also are we doing a Marth ditto?

Sure, if you want.

 

[Reizilla]

I was about to say that sounds useless and switch back to Lucina, but rage makes the world go 'round.

 

[SilverForUbers]

@ Chalice GG's! Sorry about the lag. I have no idea if it's me, and if it is I have no idea why it's there.

 

[Chalice]

Yeah messed me up a few times and for you. Wish I could space that well with Marth. Playing you was also a good experience away from For Glory. There's not really any players to my knowledge in my area so I'm left to play For Glory. I feel so bad at this game now after those matches D:

 

[SilverForUbers]

Yeah messed me up a few times and for you. Wish I could space that well with Marth. Playing you was also a good experience away from For Glory. There's not really any players to my knowledge in my area so I'm left to play For Glory. I feel so bad at this game now after those matches D:

Nah you're fine. Marth generally beats Roy so losing shouldn't be something to feel bad about.

Edit: I'm bad at offering advice, sorry. :[

 

[Chalice]

Yeah but still, I got caught by a lot of reads. Any tips though for my gameplay in general?

Edit; oh didn't see your edit

 

[Vipermoon]

Psst!
Guys, have a private conversation with each other
hint hint

 

[SilverForUbers]

Anyone else want to have a few matches?

 

[Locuan]

On the jab > F-Smash topic. Has anyone looked into the DI your opponent makes as well? I'm sure it has an effect on percentages.

I'm so swamped with work right now...

 

[Vipermoon]

How they DI jab 1 is very important. But it's not much of a threat because people usually can't DI a move with so little start-up and damage/hitlag. Usually, whatever they were doing before you hit them is how their DI will look like. So the Marth has to react to it fast during the low cool-down of jab which takes practice. I remember tipper jabbing a Fox who was running at me at tumble knockback percents. He ended up almost right above me, so Usmash. Often times I'll get a low percent kill from sour jab > DI away > tipper Fsmash.

As far as percentages go, the DI won't change hitstun (unless vectoring increases/decreases hitstun but even so it's trivial) so it's more a question of "what's optimal and what reaches when they DI ___?" I've looked into how far they can DI jab. I found that at tumble percents for sour (175%) and tipper (122%) jab when DI'ed away the Ftilt, Utilt, and Fsmash can miss.

 

[Shaya]

I've been jab -> rising nair and I find that it combos often, possibly full hop is possible for the option of a landing aerial or fast fallen for an auto cancel for another follow up.

 

[Izaw]

Hello everyone, I've been playing Marth as a secondary since the game came out, and the Marth guides I've seen so far has been kind of... weak and too simple. So I just want you guys to know I'm am currently working on Art of Marth (at the same time as I'm doing Art of Samus). It's going to be a long and VERY in-depth guide, probably the most in-depth guide I've ever made so far.

So I need atleast 1 Marth expert to work with on this. Who would you guys say is the Marth expert? (not skill-wise)

 

[Saki-]

Gameplay....Killock, Kj, EmblemLord?
Gameplay, Character Knowledge and Theory would be Shaya. Now as far as either of them having time I dunno

 

[Vipermoon]

I've been jab -> rising nair and I find that it combos often, possibly full hop is possible for the option of a landing aerial or fast fallen for an auto cancel for another follow up.

Yeah haven't played around too much with aerials from Jab except some rare Fairs and Uairs. You have to deal with the 5 frame jumpsquat and possibility of losing what could have been a tipper Fsmash. BUT you gain the ability to be frame perfect because by going for an aerial, you can simply buffer jump.

Hello everyone, I've been playing Marth as a secondary since the game came out, and the Marth guides I've seen so far has been kind of... weak and too simple. So I just want you guys to know I'm am currently working on Art of Marth (at the same time as I'm doing Art of Samus). It's going to be a long and VERY in-depth guide, probably the most in-depth guide I've ever made so far.

So I need atleast 1 Marth expert to work with on this. Who would you guys say is the Marth expert? (not skill-wise)

I nominate @ Shaya , @ A_Kae , and myself on a pure Marth knowledge front.

Thank you so much for doing this because you are absolutely right that the Marth guides have all been crap. Even the one featured on home page. Your Art of... videos are amazing though. Thanks for being awesome.

 

[Vipermoon]

Edit: double post

 

[FullMoon]

Hola guys, I've been using Marcina lately mainly because I wanted to improve my spacing game and I actually found myself enjoying playing them more than I thought I would.

I don't plan on really using either as a main or secondary as I don't really like them enough to get me fully invested into them, but I was hoping you guys could give me a few tips on how to use Marth, especially because there's a guy in my locals who still thinks Marth is trash and I want to show him how wrong he is.

I know N-Air is really good now, but I often struggle to hit with it or just making good use of it in general, I'm guessing I just don't get it yet so... Halp?

 

[Halfminded]

So I'm been asked to try and gather some neat-o replays for a mini-highlight reel.

I didn't want to bore myself or the viewers with some plain old SB shenanigans (Unless they were of the dankest level), so I was wondering if I could be enlightened on Marth's other style options?

 

[Gawain]

Someone asked about sour jab 1. If they're in the rough 115+ percent range, it true combos into dolphin slash. Do this near the ledge and they die. Even if you do it from midstage or whatever and they don't die, they're now way off stage.

I don't recommend going for up b from a tipper though, you'll just hit with the weak hitbox.

Edit: also if you've got great timing you can also chain jab 1s together in some situations. I find this works amazing as each jab pushes them a little further out and you can get free tipper smashes or tilts this way.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah jab1 repetitions would have to be one of our best usages for it, beats air dodges and 99% of aerials ad infinitum.

Sour jab into dolphin slash sweet spot though, I may have done it before but not with intention, I'm guessing the sweetspot's poor range directly in front at ground level alleviates with angling forwards a bit.

Dolphin slash as a follow up (even if it's the sour spot) is under appreciated.

 

[kj22]

Yeah jab1 repetitions would have to be one of our best usages for it, beats air dodges and 99% of aerials ad infinitum.

Sour jab into dolphin slash sweet spot though, I may have done it before but not with intention, I'm guessing the sweetspot's poor range directly in front at ground level alleviates with angling forwards a bit.

Dolphin slash as a follow up (even if it's the sour spot) is under appreciated.

I still have RCO lag PTSD

 

[Shaya]

I still have RCO lag PTSD

Yeah, I know that feel so hard... especially with playing ZSS and all

 

[A_Kae]

I still have RCO lag PTSD

I think we all do, on some level.

RCO was just the worst. I'm glad Marth doesn't have it in smash 4.

 

[Gawain]

Yeah jab1 repetitions would have to be one of our best usages for it, beats air dodges and 99% of aerials ad infinitum.

Sour jab into dolphin slash sweet spot though, I may have done it before but not with intention, I'm guessing the sweetspot's poor range directly in front at ground level alleviates with angling forwards a bit.

Dolphin slash as a follow up (even if it's the sour spot) is under appreciated.

The really nice thing about jab into up b is that it's super easy to get frame perfection,since you can just mash up b without getting Jab 2. With normals you gotta just have excellent timing and reactions.

 

[Vipermoon]

Meh, I'd never do this one. DS's range is horrid. Even sour jab can put them out of range. Even at low percents if they happen to DI backwards.

 

[Gawain]

Meh, I'd never do this one. DS's range is horrid. Even sour jab can put them out of range. Even at low percents if they happen to DI backwards.

I land it pretty consistently. It's my fallback for a kill if I'm struggling to get it before 110. It's just good to keep in mind, you can just do it on reaction after landing a jab, not like you gotta commit super hard.

 

[Vipermoon]

Even at 5 frames of start-up it won't combo at any reasonable percent because non tipper jab doesn't have much knockback (hitstun) so if they air dodge trough it, you're screwed and dead. The same can't be said for airdodging through the tilts, Fsmash, and aerials. They are safe and have a lot more range. DS has a lot of base knockback but EVEN at the ledge, sour Fsmash has comparable strength.

 

[Gawain]

Even at 5 frames of start-up it won't combo at any reasonable percent because non tipper jab doesn't have much knockback (hitstun) so if they air dodge trough it, you're screwed and dead. The same can't be said for airdodging through the tilts, Fsmash, and aerials. They are safe and have a lot more range. DS has a lot of base knockback but EVEN at the ledge, sour Fsmash has comparable strength.

That's not true, I even made a video showing that it combos. At around 115 and up on everyone(sometimes earlier), sour jab 1 true combos into Dolphin Slash. You can't airdodge it. I wouldn't really say that that kind of percent is unreasonable, it's just a late kill clincher if you fail to do so earlier.

 

[Vipermoon]

That's not true, I even made a video showing that it combos. At around 115 and up on everyone(sometimes earlier), sour jab 1 true combos into Dolphin Slash. You can't airdodge it. I wouldn't really say that that kind of percent is unreasonable, it's just a late kill clincher if you fail to do so earlier.

Okay it combos slightly earlier than I thought it would (it helps that it's automatically frame perfect) but keep in mind you can air dodge out of the last frames of hitstun and most of all: at that percent you can easily DI very far away (for both of the sour jab hitboxes). So I guess if you react to their positioning before your jab lag ends, go for it.

 

[Gawain]

Okay it combos slightly earlier than I thought it would (it helps that it's automatically frame perfect) but keep in mind you can air dodge out of the last frames of hitstun and most of all: at that percent you can easily DI very far away (for both of the sour jab hitboxes). So I guess if you react to their positioning before your jab lag ends, go for it.

I'm gonna need some proof on the airdodge thing there. As far as I've tested, as long as it combos on the combo counter, you can't airdodge it. And even then, if it's light hitstun near the ground (like jab 1 stuff), airdodge isn't fast enough to come out even though it doesn't show on the combo counter.

If that's true that kinda sucks to be honest lol, for everyone.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm gonna need some proof on the airdodge thing there. As far as I've tested, as long as it combos on the combo counter, you can't airdodge it. And even then, if it's light hitstun near the ground (like jab 1 stuff), airdodge isn't fast enough to come out even though it doesn't show on the combo counter.

If that's true that kinda sucks to be honest lol, for everyone.

Air dodges themselves's come out on frames 2-4, usually 3. But they act out of hitstun. This I have experienced first hand... back when Dair had 28 frames landing lag Sheik (random character) can air dodge out of a Dair spike to tipper Usmash even though that showed as a combo. I don't know for sure if you can attack and jump out on the same frames nor do I have a source.

Maybe @ Shaya does?

 

[Shaya]

So with that universal mechanic change... all of marth's tippers are 3+ frames safer on shield than they were before....
Is anyone else completely aghast by that amazingness?

Like...
DOWN TILT IS 3 FRAMES SAFER ON SHIELD.
MY ANECDOTAL "wow down tilting shields well spaced, especially on ledge get ups is broken" is ACTUALLY FACT.

So like -15 to -12...
All of our tipper aerials are 3 frames safer too.

Jesus christ.
JESUS CHRIST.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

So how useful is sour up air into f smash? Around 50% it can kill, but I don't know how much DI might change that. The combo is hard to do unless you are moving forward while doing the up air making them pop up right above you for the tipper f smash. If they try to DI behind you they will either still get hit by the back hitbox of f smash launching them towards the middle of the stage or you can read them and get them with the back hitbox launching them towards the blast zone.

P.S. you guys probably know this, but sour up air at the ledge into dair sets them up for a spike at 40%-60% though it is a lot easier to do it between 50%-60%.

 

[Buffoon]

So I'm been asked to try and gather some neat-o replays for a mini-highlight reel.

How are you gonna gather these replays???

 

[Halfminded]

How are you gonna gather these replays???

I was going to...save a replay if I so happen to play a match I deem replay worthy?