Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[kj22]

So with that universal mechanic change... all of marth's tippers are 3+ frames safer on shield than they were before....
Is anyone else completely aghast by that amazingness?

Like...
DOWN TILT IS 3 FRAMES SAFER ON SHIELD.
MY ANECDOTAL "wow down tilting shields well spaced, especially on ledge get ups is broken" is ACTUALLY FACT.

So like -15 to -12...
All of our tipper aerials are 3 frames safer too.

Jesus christ.
JESUS CHRIST.

? explain

 

[Shaya]

You know how hit lag modifiers applied on hit to the attacker but not to the receiver if they were shielding?

It seems that hit lag modifiers greater than 1.0 have the attacker taking 1.25x less hit lag than before IF they hit shield (so a 1.5 modifier became 1.2 [our tipper smashes], and 1.25 became 1.0 [the rest of our tippers])
This has literally made every bar jab 3 frames safer on shield at tipper range at minimum (jab is 2 frames).

It's a mechanic change they've brought in PURELY because of Ryu I'm betting. But we reap the benefits.
Our fast fall tipper fair actually became 5 frames safer on shield this patch... that's crazy.

 

[kj22]

You know how hit lag modifiers applied on hit to the attacker but not to the receiver if they were shielding?

It seems that hit lag modifiers greater than 1.0 have the attacker taking 1.25x less hit lag than before IF they hit shield (so a 1.5 modifier became 1.2 [our tipper smashes], and 1.25 became 1.0 [the rest of our tippers])
This has literally made every bar jab 3 frames safer on shield at tipper range at minimum (jab is 2 frames).

It's a mechanic change they've brought in PURELY because of Ryu I'm betting. But we reap the benefits.
Our fast fall tipper fair actually became 5 frames safer on shield this patch... that's crazy.

wow that's a pretty specific fix. And that is pretty amazing lol. even more reason to tip.

 

[Shaya]

It's probably also the reason why countering Ryu/Roy's recoveries with Marth have gotten harder, lol.
(Shields and counters have very similar mechanic interactions)

 

[Buffoon]

I was going to...save a replay if I so happen to play a match I deem replay worthy?

I was under the (false?) impression that you were seeking the replays of others.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's probably also the reason why countering Ryu/Roy's recoveries with Marth have gotten harder, lol.
(Shields and counters have very similar mechanic interactions)

Crap!! This makes sense because my success rate on gimping Ness with counter doesn't seem to be as good this patch. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Halfminded]

I was under the (false?) impression that you were seeking the replays of others.

Honest mistake, I can see how my wording may have given that impression.

 

[SilverForUbers]

I have finally become #1 Marth on Anthers. :^)

 

[kj22]

I have finally become #1 Marth on Anthers. :^)

Pshhhh reach Master then we'll talk ;^)

 

[ShadowKing]

His ability to rack up damage was taken away from him and given to Lucina (True Fact)But his tipper has significantly improved on the new patch including his side b is the fastest out of the 3 "clones"
:Strong tipper,Strong shield break and fast side b
:Racks up damage the fastest,Side b can kill in a mid-combo
:Fastest character,Strong attacks,strongest neutral b (can kill fully charged)
Since your talking about marth just wanted to throw in his clone and semi clone analysis so you can compare pro and cons

 

[SilverForUbers]

Pshhhh reach Master then we'll talk ;^)

I almost beat Taka so it's a possibility. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

 

[Vipermoon]

His ability to rack up damage was taken away from him and given to Lucina (True Fact)But his tipper has significantly improved on the new patch including his side b is the fastest out of the 3 "clones"
:Strong tipper,Strong shield break and fast side b
:Racks up damage the fastest,Side b can kill in a mid-combo
:Fastest character,Strong attacks,strongest neutral b (can kill fully charged)
Since your talking about marth just wanted to throw in his clone and semi clone analysis so you can compare pro and cons

We know all the differences and have all the frame data. Marth's Dancing Blade is the same "speed" as Lucina and Roy's.

 

[ShadowKing]

We know all the differences and have all the frame data. Marth's Dancing Blade is the same "speed" as Lucina and Roy's.

Actually no because in the recent patch marths dancing blade comes out quicker then lucinas

 

[A_Kae]

Actually no because in the recent patch marths dancing blade comes out quicker then lucinas

No. That's not what happened. The only change to dancing blade was 5 frames added to the input window, and it applies to both Marth and Lucina.

Dancing Blade has the exact same frame data between the two.

 

[ShadowKing]

No. That's not what happened. The only change to dancing blade was 5 frames added to the input window, and it applies to both Marth and Lucina.

Dancing Blade has the exact same frame data between the two.

Whatever because they might have the same frame data but that dosent say hey look lucinas and marths dancing blade has the same speed

 

[A_Kae]

Whatever because they might have the same frame data but that dosent say hey look lucinas and marths dancing blade has the same speed

It does, actually. Both attacks hit on the same frames, both end on the same frames, they are exactly the same in terms of 'speed'.

 

[Shaya]

Hi ShadowKing.
We don't take too fondly to ignorance, it's kinda what's meant to separate the Marth and Lucina boards.

No one here is going to tell you wrong information without someone else correcting them within minutes probably hours.
If you're a competitive player, welcome, you're going to be grinded into a true swordsman. If not, then don't come telling us facts.

 

[Saki-]

Hi ShadowKing.
We don't take too fondly to ignorance, it's kinda what's meant to separate the Marth and Lucina boards.

: (........we've got......fanart?

 

[Locuan]

Whatever because they might have the same frame data but that dosent say hey look lucinas and marths dancing blade has the same speed

To reiterate on what A_Kae said, if you are unfamiliar with the concept of frames I can see why you would not correlate both to being the same. First, those values are coded into the game itself. The code dictates how characters behave in the game. Once we verified those values we saw that for both characters they are equal. You could calculate it in seconds if you so desired. The game is in 60 frames per second (60 fps or 60 frames/s). You could take the total amount of frames that Dancing Blade takes to complete and do a simple calculation to determine this in seconds. However, they will be the same regardless of the unit of measurement.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I have finally become #1 Marth on Anthers. :^)

I don't have a way to measure how good I am, so I'm not sure how good I am

 

[Emblem Lord]

Whatever because they might have the same frame data but that dosent say hey look lucinas and marths dancing blade has the same speed

Times like this is why people I should be happy im not a mod.

That woulda been an insta warning for extremely bad trolling.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Whatever because they might have the same frame data but that dosent say hey look lucinas and marths dancing blade has the same speed

I don't think you understand frame data... The frame data pretty much = the speed of the attack and its startup/end lag. I barely ever know what some of these guys are talking about here, but I at least know that.

 

[SilverForUbers]

I don't have a way to measure how good I am, so I'm not sure how good I am

You don't have an Anthers Ladder account?

Edit: On another note, not sure how viable this is but it's a small string I made(not a combo) that does some decent damage if it connects.

At around 0-20% do a sh db1 > falling uair > shff nair > fsmash

Depending on DI this can connect and deal at minimum at least 30% so it's a good thing to keep in mind. At ~16% if done properly this can confirm into tipper fsmash and possibly take a stock. Best way for it to work is to get 0 tippers (except the fsmash of course )

Edit #2: A terrible 0-Death string could be DB1 > Uair > Jab > DB1 > Uair > Nair > Fsmash

No tippers on anything except fsmash ofc

I lied. If you tipper the first Uair it connects into Jab and the following DB1 easier while still possibly ending with a tipper fsmash.

 

[Shaya]

So now that marth's tippers are essentially 1.0 hitlag on shields... there is honestly close to no merit to Lucina whatsoever bar her significantly stronger forward smash punish...
Holy moly, no matter how marth spaces, he's safer on shield and gets better rewards both from sour spots and from sweet spots used with intention. He has moves that were better in practice either way like Up Tilt, Forward Tilt, Dancing Blade (ko), Jab and all aerials; now her one saving grace to using her "skillfully" (everything well spaced) being as safe/safer than Marth's is now much of a mute point. In fact he's likely safer now on a lot of things... tipper down tilt is safer on shield now than it was in Brawl!

Lucina is slightly shorter/smaller which is an amazing trait to have. Up Smash will ko about 10% earlier on average which is good. And obviously Forward Smash is a monster which can kill sub 100% outright.

For everything else I think the case is wrapped up. If they keep independently buffing her damage values (another one on smashes and I'd probably reconsider) it could make it closer and closer on "average", but top use of the character will always favour Marth significantly more than Lucina.

 

[kj22]

So now that marth's tippers are essentially 1.0 hitlag on shields... there is honestly close to no merit to Lucina whatsoever bar her significantly stronger forward smash punish...
Holy moly, no matter how marth spaces, he's safer on shield and gets better rewards both from sour spots and from sweet spots used with intention. He has moves that were better in practice either way like Up Tilt, Forward Tilt, Dancing Blade (ko), Jab and all aerials; now her one saving grace to using her "skillfully" (everything well spaced) being as safe/safer than Marth's is now much of a mute point. In fact he's likely safer now on a lot of things... tipper down tilt is safer on shield now than it was in Brawl!

Lucina is slightly shorter/smaller which is an amazing trait to have. Up Smash will ko about 10% earlier on average which is good. And obviously Forward Smash is a monster which can kill sub 100% outright.

For everything else I think the case is wrapped up. If they keep independently buffing her damage values (another one on smashes and I'd probably reconsider) it could make it closer and closer on "average", but top use of the character will always favour Marth significantly more than Lucina.

Something I've guessed but haven't tested, but doesnt she have more shield push backback then Marth non tippers? For example, her forward smash seems a lot harder to punish then Marth untippered due to just how far it sends you, so in general in terms of safety isn't it Marth tip>Lucina>Marth nontip?

 

[Shaya]

On her forward smash it definitely matters. But most other things the shield push difference is minimal (mostly negated by 30% hitlag reduction on marth's stuff).

The damage on the ftilt now would make it a safer move on shield as well.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

You don't have an Anthers Ladder account?

Edit: On another note, not sure how viable this is but it's a small string I made(not a combo) that does some decent damage if it connects.

At around 0-20% do a sh db1 > falling uair > shff nair > fsmash

Depending on DI this can connect and deal at minimum at least 30% so it's a good thing to keep in mind. At ~16% if done properly this can confirm into tipper fsmash and possibly take a stock. Best way for it to work is to get 0 tippers (except the fsmash of course )

Edit #2: A terrible 0-Death string could be DB1 > Uair > Jab > DB1 > Uair > Nair > Fsmash

No tippers on anything except fsmash ofc

I lied. If you tipper the first Uair it connects into Jab and the following DB1 easier while still possibly ending with a tipper fsmash.

I don't have a Wii U and I have gotten so used to playing offline, even the smallest bit of lag will make me feel like I'm playing the game if it was at 20 frames per sec and had unresponsive controls.

In the combo list thread up air > f smash is on it. I know a lot of people know about this combo, but I want to talk about its applications.

I have been experimenting with that combo, it can kill at 50% near the ledge (not sure how dependent it is on the opponents DI, the red spark shows up so maybe they can't survive the f smash). The combo is really tough to do, but I have been practicing the timing on it. The best way to make sure you land the tipper f smash is to have forward momentum into toward your opponent while you up air. Depending on where the opponent gets popped up above you, doing f smash toward where you want them to get launched will work and if they try to DI behind you or they behind you after the up air you can f smash away from the direction you want them to be launched and the back hit box will get them.Maybe an empty hop or SH db1 without hitting them can fake the opponent out to let them drop shield to allow the up air to connect with the up air.

If you think the timing is tough on this combo I have been trying to get the timing down on how to do this with the back hitbox of rising up air when getting back onto the stage. Of course you need to be off stage to do this, but maybe if the opponent is expecting you to grab the ledge you can land on the stage and up air them. The timing is very strict, but it works. When you go for the f smash make sure your face away from the direction you want the opponent to go.

On a side note: up air > dair can be a really stylish way to kill someone from 40%-60% if they just gave up on using DI after the up air expecting the f smash. The up air will pop them into the air in a way that allows you to really easily land the spike.

 

[SilverForUbers]

I don't have a Wii U and I have gotten so used to playing offline, even the smallest bit of lag will make me feel like I'm playing the game if it was at 20 frames per sec and had unresponsive controls.

In the combo list thread up air > f smash is on it. I know a lot of people know about this combo, but I want to talk about its applications.

I have been experimenting with that combo, it can kill at 50% near the ledge (not sure how dependent it is on the opponents DI, the red spark shows up so maybe they can't survive the f smash). The combo is really tough to do, but I have been practicing the timing on it. The best way to make sure you land the tipper f smash is to have forward momentum into toward your opponent while you up air. Depending on where the opponent gets popped up above you, doing f smash toward where you want them to get launched will work and if they try to DI behind you or they behind you after the up air you can f smash away from the direction you want them to be launched and the back hit box will get them.Maybe an empty hop or SH db1 without hitting them can fake the opponent out to let them drop shield to allow the up air to connect with the up air.

If you think the timing is tough on this combo I have been trying to get the timing down on how to do this with the back hitbox of rising up air when getting back onto the stage. Of course you need to be off stage to do this, but maybe if the opponent is expecting you to grab the ledge you can land on the stage and up air them. The timing is very strict, but it works. When you go for the f smash make sure your face away from the direction you want the opponent to go.

On a side note: up air > dair can be a really stylish way to kill someone from 40%-60% if they just gave up on using DI after the up air expecting the f smash. The up air will pop them into the air in a way that allows you to really easily land the spike.

At lower percentages I can Nair into Fsmash.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

At lower percentages I can Nair into Fsmash.

Do you have to land the tipper on any of the hits with nair and does it true combo? The combo I was talking about is a true combo and it can kill. It is kind of crazy that you can get killed at 50% by Marth without it even being a really good edgegaurd or something.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Do you have to land the tipper on any of the hits with nair and does it true combo? The combo I was talking about is a true combo and it can kill. It is kind of crazy that you can get killed at 50% by Marth without it even being a really good edgegaurd or something.

No tipper. Not sure if it catches jumps but an airdodge can be punished

 

[Reizilla]

Is it possible to stutter step the fsmash out of jab?

 

[SilverForUbers]

Is it possible to stutter step the fsmash out of jab?

Yes.

 

[Shaya]

P.S.

I always find first hit nair, untippered or otherwise, combos into tipper jab MOST OF THE TIME, and sets up the right spacing for tipper fsmash/etc too.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

*Sigh* It is like Silver is the only one who actually responds to my posts on here when I am wanting people to respond and tell me if I'm completely wrong or if what I'm saying might be really helpful. What must I do to get my senpais to notice me?

 

[Shaya]

You made a self realisation on some of the fundamental areas of Smash Bros. To me such ideas are "natural", I go for what I think will hit at the moment, if fsmash is feasible I"ll go for it.
GOOD RESULT.
Remember, if it was wrong, someone would be calling you out.

And nair into fsmash is not really much of a combo. Rage affects it, but that's why I said tipper jab out of it instead~

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

You made a self realisation on some of the fundamental areas of Smash Bros. To me such ideas are "natural", I go for what I think will hit at the moment, if fsmash is feasible I"ll go for it.
GOOD RESULT.
Remember, if it was wrong, someone would be calling you out.

And nair into fsmash is not really much of a combo. Rage affects it, but that's why I said tipper jab out of it instead~

Thanks for responding, I was feeling like I was talking to a wall whenever I made a post. I just never really see anyone talk about it or go for it.

Completely unrelated to Marth, but who else here is dying of excitement for the Phantom Pain coming out in just a few days? Unfortunately I won't be able to get the game until sometime in November, so it might be a rough few months on the internet trying to dodge the spoilers that are apparently already going around on the Internet.

 

[Reizilla]

Jab 1 x2 to tipper fsmash is amazing. I'm falling in love all over again.

I guess it's more of sour jab 1 > tipper jab 1 > fsmash

 

[Vipermoon]

If I do 2 jabs it's to bait an air dodge landing into Fsmash. If I'm not looking for air dodges I'll do the standard 1 jab (I do 1 jab most of the time).

Also I noticed I no longer accidently input jab 2. I never did it much in the first place, but over time it was less and less. Even with the hitlag differences between sour and tipper jab, I still avoid jab 2 (and it's not that I'm not frame perfect or near frame perfect either). Muscle memory stuff I guess (and hopefully two separate muscle memories for each hitlag).

Jab 2 is underrated. At low percents, unless you want to try Utilt (and hope they don't perfect shield it) for juggles, you don't really have a reason to not simply go for jab 2 which always combos.

Some ways to get Nair 1:

- When put in horizontal tumble knockback, Marth's fall speed is slow enough that you can usually get an aerial out before you land/have to tech (this is also a better way to land because it's faster and easier than teching); this Nair 1 surprises your opponent big time in some situations

- Even when it's low, non-tumble knockback you can almost always Nair 1 before you reach the ground you're already close to (I like to go for Uair in these situations though)

- Typical short hop air dodge Nair 1 and short hop fast fall Nair 1

- Short hop Dancing Blade 1 to Nair 1 (a buffered Nair 1 after DB1 won't be that close to the ground so you'll have a tough time comboing from it)

Actually, every way you get Nair 1 are the exact ways you get falling Uairs.

 

[Player-3]

@ Shaya what are the major differences from brawl marth in terms of safety/playstyle hit me with the deets skinny


edit: holy **** theres alot of old marths here

 

[Shaya]

Tilt stick
Walking Down Tilt
Fair out of shield when you can.
Dancing blade out of shield when you can.
Walking Up Tilt
Use shield breaker as a super neutral air poke
Forward Tilt out of shield
back air is the only auto cancelling aerial worth anything (still below average), fast fall everything else as much as you can.
Brawl marth ****
Jab1 into jab1 again or tilts or fsmash or dolphin slash or anything you want
rage up throw
dolphin slash won't give you RCO so be more liberal with it (out of dash, air vs air)
Forward Smash tipper things out of any sour aerial.
dancing blade1 is "brawl" end frame in the air but is super **** on the ground. DB2 is safer on shield. In the air with rage/high enough percent you can find an up air or nair from it.
Can't short hop double aerial but can land with dancing blade (or dolphin slash, or things).
Short hop air dodge into landing aerials is amazing.