Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Player-3]

so nair isnt very good anymore? shieldbreaker kinda replaced its uses

hmm thx i got labbing to do

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nair is relative. Compared to Brawl its bad.

But within Smash 4 its hella good.

 

[Player-3]

ill just watch some videos and see what its good for then

 

[Shaya]

it's alright for covering the ledge still and definitely a solid choice if you're full hopping.
Still good for it's baitey outspacing ability. And long hitbox duration stuff in general.

Also since damage buff it's now a solid kill move.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Is Jab > Dtilt a solid option when covering the ledge?

 

[Vipermoon]

Player-3, Shield Breaker has nothing to do with replacing Nair.

Tilt stick
Walking Down Tilt
Fair out of shield when you can.
Dancing blade out of shield when you can.
Walking Up Tilt
Use shield breaker as a super neutral air poke
Forward Tilt out of shield
back air is the only auto cancelling aerial worth anything (still below average), fast fall everything else as much as you can.
Brawl marth ****
Jab1 into jab1 again or tilts or fsmash or dolphin slash or anything you want
rage up throw
dolphin slash won't give you RCO so be more liberal with it (out of dash, air vs air)
Forward Smash tipper things out of any sour aerial.
dancing blade1 is "brawl" end frame in the air but is super **** on the ground. DB2 is safer on shield. In the air with rage/high enough percent you can find an up air or nair from it.
Can't short hop double aerial but can land with dancing blade (or dolphin slash, or things).
Short hop air dodge into landing aerials is amazing.

You fast fall everything as much as you can? Why? If I'm doing a rising SH Fair or Uair (or FH Dair) I don't fall fast at all because it seems to be a faster way of doing things. How many frames until Marth lands from a SHFF?

 

[Shaya]

28 frames IIRC, but I could be off, it's been a while since I looked at those numbers.

And as much as you can *ambiguity*. sh dair oos is probably best fast fallen always (I know you said FH), while if you're doing a rising bair, fair or uair (uair is so useless though bleh), you may be better off floating around.
But being in a situation where you can fast fall the aerial is almost always best, that was the idea. You haven't experienced enough of brawl meta with auto cancels to get why I brought that up

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

So what is your favorite and least favorite match-up to play with Marth? My favorite is Marth vs Captain Falcon, but I really can't explain why and my least favorite is Marth vs any character with a large hurtbox. I almost never land the tippers I try to get when I face a character with a large hurtbox.

 

[Shaya]

Favourite match up with Marth? It's probably still Marth (although not in tournament, **** that)
I do enjoy fighting MKs and the likes too. Probably just about any match up still kinda similar to Brawl.

Least favourite? Luigi.

 

[Langston777]

Luigi, really? i've never fought a good one but i don't have much trouble with him as it is. Mario on the other hand.... they all seem to think rolling around like a chuckle**** is the answer to beating Marth. i usually switch to Ike or Palutena for Mario nowadays.

probably Yoshi or Pikachu are my most feared.

favorite would be Fox. something about it i just like. i think it's the fast paced nature of the match, along with the edgegaurding, and the hilarious scenario where Fox dies off the side at 80% to dancing blade.

 

[Shaya]

I've kinda gutted every Mario and Pikachu that's come near me offline, and mostly online too. Marth still doesn't really have an answer to passive/reactive luigi fireball and shield, and seeing as how much reward Luigi gets for the marth mess up (a lot worse than Sheik, who can do a similar thing) it just feels like... not worth playing/trying in anything unless the opponent is bad.

Also coincidentally @ JingleJangleJamil I like heavies for the same reason you dislike them. Sour spots are easy to follow up from :D

 

[Vipermoon]

Favorites are probably (in no order): Falcon, Pit, Roy, and Ike. But they have to be good because that's the only way I'd have fun.

Out of the characters I don't like fighting, Olimar and Sonic take the cake.

28 frames IIRC, but I could be off, it's been a while since I looked at those numbers.

And as much as you can *ambiguity*. sh dair oos is probably best fast fallen always (I know you said FH), while if you're doing a rising bair, fair or uair (uair is so useless though bleh), you may be better off floating around.
But being in a situation where you can fast fall the aerial is almost always best, that was the idea. You haven't experienced enough of brawl meta with auto cancels to get why I brought that up

Oh I have enough experience from Brawl to at least get that. Fast fall everything in Brawl (especially with the slow fall speed). Man that autocancel was so good and then the 8 frames of landing lag you'd otherwise get.

But here's why I don't FF rising Uair and Fair (Bair I'll FF later on so it still ACs obviously). For Fair if I want to double jump or act in some way, I have the option to. I won't be landing early stuck in whatever spot I landed in either. I can drift where I want to. Same with Uair, I rising Uair against aerial opponents and after Utilt all the time. Just a flick of the control stick and C stick upwards. Again, the drifting helps me continue the pressure (but Brawl AC on Uair would be a god send, probably making consecutive SSFF Uairs combo into eachother like Melee).

Even with Bair sometimes I won't FF so that I double jump either to get out of a situation or to further my attack (SH Bair to DJ Uair on taller opponents).

Basically FFing isn't going to save me any frames and not doing it gives me more options.

 

[A_Kae]

Favorites: Marth (not in tournament/serious match like shaya), Ike, Roy, Captain Falcon, Fox.
Least favorite: Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, Olimar, Sonic.

As long as they're good, that is. Bad players are no fun no matter what character.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

There are some more characters I hate playing against as Marth. I hate playing against a lot of campy characters as Marth because when I am waiting for them to do something so I can punish it, I either can't get close enough due to projectiles or they are also trying to do the same leading to us staring at each other intensely from opposite ends of the stage. I dont have much experience against Luigi, but against a good one I just imagine myself being like: "oh crap I got grabbed, wow I'm already at kill %" "damn he grabbed me agai- oh.....I'm dead....".

I hate playing against Sonic because he isn't just a campy character, oh no he is a special one...one second he might be at the other side of the stage camping and the next he is right in front of you and you take big damage. When I use Marth against him it seems that there is about a 50/50 chance the timer runs out or nearly runs out with them winning before it runs out, or they end up screwing up big time and eat a tipper right to the back near the ledge after they screw up trying to start a combo.

I also REALLY hate Mario and Yoshi when I use Marth pretty much for one reason. I do not care if I piss anyone off when I say this, but all these two characters do is press buttons. They basically look like me when I play street fighter, but they are using a character that barely punishes the player for just pressing whatever is on the controller.

 

[Vipermoon]

See I would say Mario and Yoshi (because trust me I hate fighting especially Yoshi if it's online and on FD... you know.... for glory) but I played many friendlies against Regralht (a very very good Yoshi in MI) and offline on different stages Yoshi isn't as annoying. Don't get me wrong, he's pretty annoying and hard to punish and I still think Marth loses but I still had fun.

 

[Reizilla]

I like playing against the local Marios and Luigi. I can see Luigu being a pain when done right though. Least favorite is Marth because my fundamentals suck and I always have close games with people way worse than me.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

See I would say Mario and Yoshi (because trust me I hate fighting especially Yoshi if it's online and on FD... you know.... for glory) but I played many friendlies against Regralht (a very very good Yoshi in MI) and offline on different stages Yoshi isn't as annoying. Don't get me wrong, he's pretty annoying and hard to punish and I still think Marth loses but I still had fun.

One thing that I used to love doing against FG Yoshi's is make it look like they can get the kill with the down b and then end up tricking them into doing it so I can make them eat a tipper right to that big *** nose of his.

 

[ben1707]

I feel weird saying this, but my favorite MU with Marth is Rosa. I just love how early she can die to tippers after one-shoting Luma w/T Fsmash. I also really like how good the MUs are against Roy and MK, or at least on my personal experience.
For the ones I hate the most, Mario takes the cake. I just hate fighting Mario in general. So much brutally self-contained anger.

Edit: grammar issues.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I feel weird saying this, but my favorite MU with Marth is Rosa. I just love how early she can die to tippers after one-shoting Luma w/T Fsmash. I also really like how good the MUs are against Roy and MK, or at least on my personal experience.
For the ones I hate the most, Mario takes the cake. I just hate fighting Mario in general. So much brutally self-contained anger.

Edit: grammar issues.

Eh I don't like the MU, because even if I hit the Luma I'm just going to get punished by Rosa and then they just run away from me until another meat sheild spawns.

 

[Reizilla]

More than any matchup, I hate moves that pull back a little. 80% of the time, my spacing is off a little, but any time my opponent uses one of those attacks? You can bet I'm going to be on point and end up getting a ghost hit, eating an f/usmash to the face.

 

[Halfminded]

More than any matchup, I hate moves that pull back a little. 80% of the time, my spacing is off a little, but any time my opponent uses one of those attacks? You can bet I'm going to be on point and end up getting a ghost hit, eating an f/usmash to the face.

I despise that little spark animation when your attack grazes their hurtbox.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I despise that little spark animation when your attack grazes their hurtbox.

That would be a horrible thing to see during grand finals at a tournament when you are both on last stock kill %.

 

[Xelion]

I despise that little spark animation when your attack grazes their hurtbox.

It's so painful to see especially when read the opponent's roll and you know it would kill but it is a glancing blow and it sparks.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Not sure how much you guys care and I'm not sure if I should even be posting this here, but I am kind of contemplating making a new account on here just for the sole reason of wanting a new tag that doesn't sound so stupid or uses my real name in it. I am not going to do it until I can settle on a new tag to use and I am obviously going to use the profile pic I have currently. Can anyone tell me how to delete an account?

Edit: Never mind looks like I can't delete an account.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Sakurai should make Marth's Dash Attack and Down Smash as fast as 1.5 speed in training mode. That would be perfect.

Well, around that speed. Making those moves that fast might make them a little too good.

Actually. 1.5x speed is training mode gives a good look into how Marth would look if he had proper autocancel windows on aerials.

 

[Vipermoon]

Making Marth look like his previous OP self is fun and there are many ways to do it:

1.5x multiplier gives you the DB1 from Brawl.

Then you have the Smooth Lander equipment to get the old landing lag (and the Attack bonus will increase Marth's damage output making some moves similar to before).

Add a small Speed equipment increase to heighten Marth's Short Hop to make Fair > 2nd aerial possible.

For autocancel windows, customize blue Robin (who inherited Marth's old autocancel [except Nair] and Fair IASA). Add Smooth Lander, and add two Speed equipments to make his ground speed closer to Marth and you got a weird, Marth-god-like character.

 

[SilverForUbers]

It's a shame how good Robin's Down Throw became and we're still stuck with subpar throws that do way too little damage, have way too much endlag, and only has 1 follow up.

 

[Vipermoon]

That's one reason why I enjoy fighting Roy, Falcon, and Fox. Dthrow works like a real Dthrow against them.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Has anyone here done Up Throw Up Smash at 0%? It isn't a true combo but it's incredibly funny to land. xD

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I actually would like to see f throw get buffed for more combo potential rather than d throw. With d throw we can at least get a up air or bair on air dodge punish or if they don't air dodge at all. With f throw the only way you are going to get any follow ups or combos is if the opponent has no idea how to DI. I'm not sure what the change could beto f throw, but I want it to happen.

Has anyone here done Up Throw Up Smash at 0%? It isn't a true combo but it's incredibly funny to land. xD

Nope, but that sounds funny to land.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Nope, but that sounds funny to land.

It's a tipper up smash too, so that means you also get 21% off. :^)

On another note. I've found that if you run into the opponent and Up Smash at lower % (couldn't get it at higher %) they get sent diagonally away from the way you're facing. Has it always done this?

 

[Vipermoon]

It's a tipper up smash too, so that means you also get 21% off. :^)

On another note. I've found that if you run into the opponent and Up Smash at lower % (couldn't get it at higher %) they get sent diagonally away from the way you're facing. Has it always done this?

Yeah I don't get why it does this but it happened in Brawl all the time.

But I welcome it because otherwise Usmash isn't safe on hit at lower percents.

EDIT... Theory: It might be because the sword hitbox hits you first and then you get the 3% grounded hitbox/dust cloud second (usually the dust cloud hits first).

 

[SilverForUbers]

Yeah I don't get why it does this but it happened in Brawl all the time.

But I welcome it because otherwise Usmash isn't safe on hit at lower percents

Huh. Guess I don't use Up Smash very much

Edit: But why would it only happen at lower %?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

It's a tipper up smash too, so that means you also get 21% off. :^)

Wow so it isn't just funny to land, but could be useful. How dependent is it on the opponents DI?

 

[SilverForUbers]

Wow so it isn't just funny to land, but could be useful. How dependent is it on the opponents DI?

Since it'll probably only happen when the opponent is at 0% you shouldn't pummel them, giving them next to no time to DI.

But on the off chance they do DI, I'm not sure of it'll still connect. The tipper hitbox is pretty big, though.

 

[Shaya]

It happens because two active hitboxes 'over lap' a hurtbox at the same time although they're separate.
In brawl it was a lot more noticeable as the feet hitbox came out 2 frames before the sword.

In Brawl you would be able to have up smash deal a single 21% hit in training mode, which was the overlapping of the feet hitbox and the tipper. The feet hitbox always had a bit of "priority" so to speak, so you'd end up not sending people very far with this 21% "hitbox" that interacted with our tipper.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

You know what would be really funny? Foxtrotting right up to your opponent and stopping right in front of them to hit the with a tipper f smash. That will likely never happen to anyone ever on the face of the earth, but it would be really funny.

 

[Shaya]

It happens.

 

[SilverForUbers]

The funniest thing is walking up to someone, grabbing them, and killing then with an Up Throw.

 

[Vipermoon]

Tipper Usmash is not safe on hit at 0%. Please don't do that. They have plently of time to jump or air dodge (and probably still punish the Usmash) or simply glide away as they are falling. Usmash tipper is not a big hitbox (sure it's wider than the sword of course but still).