Quickhero
Smash Ace
It's not a bad stage, but man. As an Ike main I absolutely hate that stage. It's such a ***** to recover with Aether since you can still just end up going right under it.
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Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
It's happened to me with various characters, but like, it rarely happens and I tend to think I knew it was going to happen before it happens every time it happens.
ens
happ.
ens
happ.
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I reaaaaaally need to put time into Marth again. It's been all Mario for me this past month >_<
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Halfminded
Smash Journeyman
So I finally got around to working on dance-trotting (I still don't like that name). And boy oh boy do I like dance-trot SH nair
Halfminded
Smash Journeyman
Oh I know, I'll just abbreviate it as dt.
Much better.
Much better.
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
I've been playing Marth a lot vs. my friends in online friendlies ever since the Jab buff. He's a lot of fun!
I play nothing like @
Shaya
though. I like to walk around and jab into stuff (usually grab, dtilt, or FSmash if they think I'm doing the former two and don't jump). I might start using Fair more aggressively, seems like since 1.1.0 (i.e. now) you can to some degree. Uair looks useful too, definitely not going to steal those combos....
I play nothing like @
Shaya
though. I like to walk around and jab into stuff (usually grab, dtilt, or FSmash if they think I'm doing the former two and don't jump). I might start using Fair more aggressively, seems like since 1.1.0 (i.e. now) you can to some degree. Uair looks useful too, definitely not going to steal those combos....
CURRY
Smash Journeyman
Smashboards is weird, it didn't send me notifications for this thread for about a month.
Holy crap, sh fair -> DB sounds really awesome, I can't believe I've never thought of using that.
This isn't specific to Marth in ANY way:
How are you supposed to DI/vector?? I remember seeing a video that says that diagonally down towards the stage helps you live the longest for horizontal launches, and that you hold away from the opponent for vertical.
The problem is that diagonally down towards the stage makes you DI at a really bad angle.
Holy crap, sh fair -> DB sounds really awesome, I can't believe I've never thought of using that.
This isn't specific to Marth in ANY way:
How are you supposed to DI/vector?? I remember seeing a video that says that diagonally down towards the stage helps you live the longest for horizontal launches, and that you hold away from the opponent for vertical.
The problem is that diagonally down towards the stage makes you DI at a really bad angle.
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FallenHero
Smash Ace
What is a Dance-trot?
It's not that good KJ lol
I linked in this thread (although I'm a bad person and it should be in the vid thread but it isn't commentated/tournament): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HW0gaL7D2A
I linked in this thread (although I'm a bad person and it should be in the vid thread but it isn't commentated/tournament): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HW0gaL7D2A
FallenHero
Smash Ace
pshhh stop being modest I expect to see TIPPERS TIPPERS TIPPERS EVERYWHERE
and ty, watching rn, will edit with response
OH MY GOODNESS that first stock ._. #shayaplzhavemercy
Ummmmmm did anybody else see marth slide backwards after dtilting around 0:38? o.O https://youtu.be/2HW0gaL7D2A?t=36s does shieldbreakering then inputting a move back you slide backwards now??
Also you're doing what Zero (san antonio sonic zero, goes by aria hatsune now) was recommending I do more: full hop aerials. I'm still stuck in the beautiful short hop brawl days and its getting me punished by faster characters. Full hop aerials are definitely great, working on implementing more
lmfao lil mac walking forward and ftilting reminds me of snake walking forward and murdering you with his ftilt in brawl. He just walks at you and...you know whats coming but...it still hits you .-.
I'm LAZY@kj22 lol you could've just gone to the page before this on one of the last few posts and found it.
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Halfminded
Smash Journeyman
FallenHero
Smash Ace
Thanks. I wonder how hard it would be to do this on 3DS.
@
Shaya
looking at the video again I notice my Marth looks pretty similar to yours. Also that Little Mac needs to shield, because the entire match they were just getting hit.
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I tend to have that overwhelming effect of always beating an opponent trying to attack me first.
People do realise that slowing it down defensively helps them a lot, but at the same time as people learn to be like that more, it's also tightening my anti-defense/shield game a lot more in the process/retuning how I play neutral; at the end point of Brawl I was so confident/crisp with Marth I was generally always aggressive zoning, knowing all the "50/50s" (which were in marth's favour) and coming out on top in them most of the time. New game though and it's taken me time to adjust and realise you need to build that style of play back up for it to be as successful again, because while those skills still give me that "i'll always win the hit vs hit" I'm overzealous with things that I shouldn't be.
Overall I've recently been a lot more positive about this game. The best options are starting to become fleshed out and even the best options to beat the best options are. At some point I didn't feel like smash4 had the depth to really break through that (balance patches though have definitely saved it), but now I think player style can start to shine and develop distinctively again.
I think the only sore thumbs in this game right now are Sheik, Ness and Luigi. Nearly everything else is pretty fun now.
People do realise that slowing it down defensively helps them a lot, but at the same time as people learn to be like that more, it's also tightening my anti-defense/shield game a lot more in the process/retuning how I play neutral; at the end point of Brawl I was so confident/crisp with Marth I was generally always aggressive zoning, knowing all the "50/50s" (which were in marth's favour) and coming out on top in them most of the time. New game though and it's taken me time to adjust and realise you need to build that style of play back up for it to be as successful again, because while those skills still give me that "i'll always win the hit vs hit" I'm overzealous with things that I shouldn't be.
Overall I've recently been a lot more positive about this game. The best options are starting to become fleshed out and even the best options to beat the best options are. At some point I didn't feel like smash4 had the depth to really break through that (balance patches though have definitely saved it), but now I think player style can start to shine and develop distinctively again.
I think the only sore thumbs in this game right now are Sheik, Ness and Luigi. Nearly everything else is pretty fun now.
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SilverForUbers
Smash Master
Are full hop Fairs good against Falcon? Every tike I do one he just seems to grab me during the lag of my other aerial...
FallenHero
Smash Ace
One of my friends who is a lot better than me at the game has a very aggressive play-style with his Lucas and Ike, but at the same time it is difficult to break his defense when he is using Lucas. His zoning with aerial PK fire makes it nearly impossible to hit him. If I try to attack him I end up getting combo-ed to crap out of. What do you mean by "sore thumbs"?
When I play against Falcon with Marth I find retreating SH fair and d tilt are very strong against him. When you full hop fair are you moving towards them? If you are going toward them you should move away right after you see the fair didn't them and try to do a d tilt or f tilt.
SilverForUbers
Smash Master
Yeah, I should probably land faster.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
I don't know why Marth went backward during Dtilt like that. But it didn't seem to have anything to do with Shield Breaker.
Also, @
Shaya
I feel like you could implement more Nair, Utilt, and dance trots in your game (unless of course you just happend to not do those since we all have to change our play-style against Mac).
Nair is good if you see a mac dash up to you and shield or for landing traps.
Usually in situations where I would up tilt would be where those up airs that whiffed that turned into a grab, against mac it isn't exactly worth the risk because he gets ****ed by our throws as it is (and he falls fast and stuff).
Dance trots on the other hand; yes. But I still prefer dash away turn around cancels on average if I'm thinking of that. I do it more on ZSS.
Usually in situations where I would up tilt would be where those up airs that whiffed that turned into a grab, against mac it isn't exactly worth the risk because he gets ****ed by our throws as it is (and he falls fast and stuff).
Dance trots on the other hand; yes. But I still prefer dash away turn around cancels on average if I'm thinking of that. I do it more on ZSS.
Halfminded
Smash Journeyman
It's fairly annoying on the 3DS. Not that hard, but annoying none the less.Thanks. I wonder how hard it would be to do this on 3DS.
@
Nothing like perfect pivoting though *shudders*
FallenHero
Smash Ace
Honestly, I think perfect pivoting is not that important unless you are using Fox. Dance trotting seems to be able to allow a lot of what perfect pivoting allows you to do, but easier to do consistently and master.
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Halfminded
Smash Journeyman
I definitely agree. I never found perfect pivoting that efficient, though I did find it fun to try out.
DT is by far a more applicable tech. (and it looks nice)
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
I think the patches have been the best part of this game. They've fixed a lot of dysfunctional characters and, of course, positively affected the metagame IN MOST INSTANCES.
Pretty solid opinion of them, myself. Marth feels like he can do stuff now, and it's great. I mean he could before, but now it feels like it'll both work better, be more rewarding to develop, and also a lot of fun.
Yes, I've been having a lot of fun with this character as of post patch. Apparently I really DO like spacing characters (Guile in ST is basically a spacing character with a good projectile, mostly)
FallenHero
Smash Ace
The best thing that the patches have done was bring character diversity to the meta. One of the reasons I stopped caring about smash for a few months was because every time I wanted to watch a tournament it was just Diddy vs Diddy nearly every match. I decided I didn't really want to get into playing this game seriously, because it would have been boring to just play against the same two characters all the time. From what I have seen it looks like Shiek definitely isn't as over used as Diddy was back then.
Before the last two patches Marth just felt unnecessarily difficult to use due to a lack of options he had in the neutral.
HFlash
Future Physician and Sm4sher
The biggest thing I feel that changed marth was the Utilt, fair, and safety on shield changes. He can actually throw out moves in the neutral, and not get punished 70% of the time. A marth with a bad Utilt and Fair just felt SO foreign to me. Hopefully, the other potential bottom 10 characters like Samus, Mewtwo, Zelda, etc. get some of their main tools buffed so that the metagame continues to add diversity.
The fact that he got nerfed so hard to the point that you have dedicated marth mains (like Mr. R, Bengals, EL etc). move on to other characters is definitely heart wrenching. I'm sure if marth came out on Wii U release as he is now, you would see ALOT more marth results and representation, but that might just be a fallacy of mine.
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FallenHero
Smash Ace
db up is the easiest to hit with at any % since the last two hits have a large hitbox. db neutral can be a good way to kill if you can connect the first his, but sometimes they can escape before the last hit connects. I need to check to know for sure, but I think if you can hit with all the hits of the last attack from db down you can do the most damage out of all the other types of db. You can switch up your db mid combo so experimenting to see which combination of db is the most effective would be a good thing to do.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
No all DB up is not the best! Nor is some crazy combination of them all.
Use all forward or 1, 2, 3 forward, 4th up. If you feel like using 4 down they have to be at low percents or fast faller at mid percents or it won't work. Down 3 is not ideal or necessary, only use down 3 if you want mess up your opponent's spacing due to the step back he takes after down 3.
At the ledge try to get the forward tipper for the early kills (the ledge can assist you for the tipper) or at low percents go for up 4 at the ledge, wait for their air dodge while charging Fsmash, and tipper Fsmash them right out of their air dodge (did this yesterday, killed at 30).
Don't use dancing blade otherwise at high percents (when DB1 does tumble KB that's a good indication) unless you are willing to slow it down a bunch and possibly go for reads.
Use all forward or 1, 2, 3 forward, 4th up. If you feel like using 4 down they have to be at low percents or fast faller at mid percents or it won't work. Down 3 is not ideal or necessary, only use down 3 if you want mess up your opponent's spacing due to the step back he takes after down 3.
At the ledge try to get the forward tipper for the early kills (the ledge can assist you for the tipper) or at low percents go for up 4 at the ledge, wait for their air dodge while charging Fsmash, and tipper Fsmash them right out of their air dodge (did this yesterday, killed at 30).
Don't use dancing blade otherwise at high percents (when DB1 does tumble KB that's a good indication) unless you are willing to slow it down a bunch and possibly go for reads.
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Halfminded
Smash Journeyman
I know I've been told DB >>>^ is used for the tipper, but sometimes I don't seem to get it unless I use >>^^
Also I love quick input >> then stutter vv to get them to drop shield for the multipoke
Edit: I just noticed, is arrow notation for DB not a thing here?
Edit2: Any of you guys see that tech video that was just posted on the front page? Dtilt to option select SB/dash sounds sexy.
On second thought, does anyone have data on how long it takes to drop shield after Dtilt's shieldstun? Is it the same as normal?
Also I love quick input >> then stutter vv to get them to drop shield for the multipoke
Edit: I just noticed, is arrow notation for DB not a thing here?
Edit2: Any of you guys see that tech video that was just posted on the front page? Dtilt to option select SB/dash sounds sexy.
On second thought, does anyone have data on how long it takes to drop shield after Dtilt's shieldstun? Is it the same as normal?
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FallenHero
Smash Ace
CURRY
Smash Journeyman
So since no one answered my question about DI, I'm assuming that I wasn't wrong.
I just wondered about it that day because I started creeping around on Shaya's channel and saw ZSS looking like she DIed the Brawl way:
https://youtu.be/wqt9VjuLjXE?t=4m39s
The option select thing sounds pretty cool, except dashing towards the opponent at dtilt range doesn't seem too safe, since that dtilt is shorter in this game as well. I hope that we'll be able to find out more of these though.
But anyway, how does the Marth vs. ROB matchup go? A Smash club just started up at my school this year and everyone's generally still bad, but there's a ROB player that I'm worried about because he looks like the most competent player besides me-- not saying that I'm good, because I'd still say that I'm below average, even in FG-- not having a Smash scene near my area really hurts.
Anyway, I don't really remember the specifics on why I have trouble against ROB as Marth (haven't even played 1v1 against him yet-- all the Smash club has done so far is no-item 8 player Smashes), but I remember not being able to approach FG ROBs because of the gyro and massively being out-camped by the gyro and lasers. I think that being able to fair + pick up the gyro would REALLY help offline-- but does it make a big difference being able to pick up the gyro?
I just wondered about it that day because I started creeping around on Shaya's channel and saw ZSS looking like she DIed the Brawl way:
https://youtu.be/wqt9VjuLjXE?t=4m39s
The option select thing sounds pretty cool, except dashing towards the opponent at dtilt range doesn't seem too safe, since that dtilt is shorter in this game as well. I hope that we'll be able to find out more of these though.
But anyway, how does the Marth vs. ROB matchup go? A Smash club just started up at my school this year and everyone's generally still bad, but there's a ROB player that I'm worried about because he looks like the most competent player besides me-- not saying that I'm good, because I'd still say that I'm below average, even in FG-- not having a Smash scene near my area really hurts.
Anyway, I don't really remember the specifics on why I have trouble against ROB as Marth (haven't even played 1v1 against him yet-- all the Smash club has done so far is no-item 8 player Smashes), but I remember not being able to approach FG ROBs because of the gyro and massively being out-camped by the gyro and lasers. I think that being able to fair + pick up the gyro would REALLY help offline-- but does it make a big difference being able to pick up the gyro?
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Halfminded
Smash Journeyman
Well what I was thinking was just turn that option selected dash into a grab on reaction if they spotdodged, since the dash will only come out on whiff, meaning it was spotdodged/rolled. Likewise, if they roll back to avoid the dtilt, you're now dashing in to threaten. If they rolled behind you, then now you're dashing away to reset neutral.
Of course, there will be some character dependent quips, but in general I think it's pretty useful on shield.
FallenHero
Smash Ace
Marth doesn't do well against ROB. His projectiles will make it tough to get in range to attack him. If you see ROB trying to approach you they are most likely trying to get a grab, so make sure you take that chance to attack them.
CURRY
Smash Journeyman
Goddamit, I looked at the video and thought that the only dash option is to dash towards the opponent for some reason. I can see how this is useful now.
Another option to add to our arsenal! I've always pretty much had trouble reacting to punishing people getting out of the dtilt trap, so this might help. Maybe.
Walk and down tilt and shield and punish.
Against ROB.
It's easier match up to play than in Brawl, even if ROB's rewards are more strong/consistent.
vertical KO things I'm just likely holding away which makes it look brawl-esque, but the truth is DI for those things are brawl-esque.
It's horizontal things that are weird/annoying... one day someone will tell me how to survive ness bthrow at the ledge.
Against ROB.
It's easier match up to play than in Brawl, even if ROB's rewards are more strong/consistent.
vertical KO things I'm just likely holding away which makes it look brawl-esque, but the truth is DI for those things are brawl-esque.
It's horizontal things that are weird/annoying... one day someone will tell me how to survive ness bthrow at the ledge.
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