Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Ledge drop actions are better than we give credit for. Not having invincibility when you ledge drop isn't as bad as people make it out to be if you're hitting their shields with something and then your recovery.
If people are doing something that would cover a lot of get up options but would lose to ledge drop fair/uair... why not?

Anyway
something hella nostalgic happened for the first time in like 3 years
NEO messaging me on an IM service of some description to ask me for Marth frame data help.
It begins...

 

[Vipermoon]

Sweet. I wonder if Neo will still use Lucina or just do all Marth.

what kind of players are you guys playing against near the ledge? I wanna play those people

Why can't I get away with it? I'm staying below the ledge and with the ledge machanics in this game no one expects it (the double jump to aerial they may expect but not this) when used as a mix-up.

I either hit their shield (but I wouldn't attempt if there was a shield) and hope DS shield pokes or they drop shield so DS hits and I can a free get-up. If the DS hit a shield then I hope I can get off the ledge before I'm screwed (some characters can punish this better than others so this tactic is slightly MU dependent). Or I hit them with the tipper Fair and get the free get-up that way. That or overshoot the ledge with DS while I'm safe after Fair hits... either way, I'm back on stage, that's our goal.

 

[Shaya]

Since the hit lag stuff on shield, he's all Marth I believe.

 

[FallenHero]

I used to do a lot of ledge drop options, but when I stopped playing Smash for a few months and came back I forgot about them.

 

[Zano]

I play these people that do this thing called spacing so they can punish any attempt at me trying to regrab the ledge so I don't even bother with stuff like that anymore, the risk reward isn't there to justify, just get back on stage and do what marth does.

 

[Vipermoon]

I play these people that do this thing called spacing so they can punish any attempt at me trying to regrab the ledge so I don't even bother with stuff like that anymore, the risk reward isn't there to justify, just get back on stage and do what marth does.

It isn't that simple. People will do many things and they'll switch it up. Sometimes they'll stand back, sometimes sit in shield, sometimes charge an attack. Sometimes roll into the ledge if they have a Bthrow. Sometimes some special character related technique. Sometimes running toward the ledge. It's not like I'm fishing for it. IF I see that they are obviously not expecting it (based on whatever they are doing or not doing) and that they are within range I might do it. It's a great way to ease pressure in moments where Fair is guarenteed. It reaches pretty far too.

EDIT: Oh IDK how I didn't mention this but it's a perfect way to punish the end lag of those guys trying to catch your ledge vulnerability. Little Mac Dsmash and Ike Eruption are great examples.

 

[FallenHero]

I play these people that do this thing called spacing so they can punish any attempt at me trying to regrab the ledge so I don't even bother with stuff like that anymore, the risk reward isn't there to justify, just get back on stage and do what marth does.

Maybe you should stop doing the same thing gets you punished.

 

[kj22]

You guys don't know Zano well enough to know you're being baited and trolled ;x

 

[Vipermoon]

Whatever. His post sounded serious enough. He made solid points on spacing and punishing and I said I use it more as a punish. Perfectly normal conversation.

 

[kj22]

Whatever. His post sounded serious enough. He made solid points on spacing and punishing and I said I use it more as a punish. Perfectly normal conversation.

There's nothing wrong with your response, just know if you're trying to change his mind he's not being serious.

 

[SilverForUbers]

So has anyone tried Jab > Dair as a mixup option at higher percents?

 

[FallenHero]

So has anyone tried Jab > Dair as a mixup option at higher percents?

If you can land a sour up air at the ledge at 40%-60% they get popped up in the perfect position to land the spike with dair.

 

[Vipermoon]

Lmao Jab > Dair

 

[SilverForUbers]

If you can land a sour up air at the ledge at 40%-60% they get popped up in the perfect position to land the spike with dair.

Jab > Dair > USmash tho

 

[Vipermoon]

Jab > Dair > Usmash > Usmash > Dair > Usmash > Death. Can't believe I haven't seen this yet.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Up Smash confirmed to combo into itself.

 

[Vipermoon]

It totally does. Do an Usmash in training mode. Combo counter will show a 2. Confirmed.

 

[kj22]

Jab > Dair > Usmash > Usmash > Dair > Usmash > Death. Can't believe I haven't seen this yet.

My favorite comment so far

 

[HFlash]

Usmash counters into itself?? At what percentages (roughly)?

 

[FallenHero]

Usmash counters into itself?? At what percentages (roughly)?

I think he means that as a joke. Up smash has two hits.

 

[HFlash]

I'm gonna stop coming to Smashboards after overnight shifts at the ER lol. I should sleep.

 

[FallenHero]

I think SH nair while moving behind your opponent can be a good setup. I need to look into what what setups you might be able to do with this. Could probably get the nair by going off stage and jumping back up with your back turned from the stage. Also have you guys ever tried doing tipper jab into nair at the ledge? It looks like it could be a great option for edge guarding with Marth, since if you get the tipper on jab1 it is really easy to get both tippers on nair (nair2 tipper can kill at the ledge).

On a side note: Today is my birthday! Just turned 16!

 

[Vipermoon]

Happy birthday

And no, I don't see the point. Jumpsquat of 5 frames, 6 frames of start-up for Nair, and the chance of not hitting and/or not tippering. Just use Fsmash in that exact situation. No reason not to if you intention is to kill.

 

[HFlash]

Eyy Happy Birthday! Enjoy it, once you turn 21, birthdays start losing their luster . Anyway, no not really, Viper is on point fsmash is just better at that point. I like nair more while offstage to either catch people off guard (since they are expecting fair) or to catch air dodges.

 

[FallenHero]

I hope the next thing they buff for Marth is his side b in the air. It is fine on the ground ever since they made it easier to land all hits, but you really can't do much with it in the air. I think making it so that each hit of DB in the air will drag the opponent in the same direction as the user's momentum. Using side b to gimp off stage and other potential things you could do with it would be nice.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wanna buff side B? Speed up DB1 and make it so that DB2 doesn't KEEP MISSING!! Like seriously, even at low percents that stupid new animation DB2 has has the sword sweeping right under their feet everytime! (Try DB2 in the air, that was the old animation). Another way to fix that is decrease the knockback of DB1. Brawl DB worked much better because hit 1 was fast, lagless, and didn't do much knockback, DB2 never missed, and DB3 almost guaranteed the DB4 forward tipper. Lastly, DB4 Down is WAY too laggy. It's only purpose in my opinion is shields and damage but it's useless against shields because it's as punishable as the others. DB still needs some work.

I keep forgetting to rant about Dancing Blade thanks for reminding me.

 

[FallenHero]

Wanna buff side B? Speed up DB1 and make it so that DB2 doesn't KEEP MISSING!! Like seriously, even at low percents that stupid new animation DB2 has has the sword sweeping right under their feet everytime! (Try DB2 in the air, that was the old animation). Another way to fix that is decrease the knockback of DB1. Brawl DB worked much better because hit 1 was fast, lagless, and didn't do much knockback, DB2 never missed, and DB3 almost guaranteed the DB4 forward tipper. Lastly, DB4 Down is WAY too laggy. It's only purpose in my opinion is shields and damage but it's useless against shields because it's as punishable as the others. DB still needs some work.

I keep forgetting to rant about Dancing Blade thanks for reminding me.

And I keep forgetting about the move in general. After seeing a few videos from the video thread I realized that in comparison to a lot of you guys I am not really all that creative in my playstyle with Marth. It really isn't that I can't get creative with him, it is that I don't really think to. My playstyle with him is very flowchart when being improvisational would really be more effective and more fun. I think DB could be the key to expanding my ability to bend my opponent to my will. That is what I love about Marth, when things are going your way you are basically in control of what your opponent can and cannot do.

 

[HFlash]

Ahh DB, was so beautiful in Brawl, and was mainly the move that shined in comparison to Melee Marth. It used to be my go to neutral move, only second to fair, and was sooooo good for punishing hits on shield. Vipermoon hit the nail on the head: DB1 needs to be safer and with less knockback. Although to compensate, I would lower the KB of DB 4 as it seems to consistently able to kill if spaced right in this game. Marth has plenty of ways to kill (especially with the new uthrow option and how strong a SB hit hurts), but a good, quick move to rack up percent is lacking. The new jab is nice, but something to pull out out of a dash (or fox trot) would be very nice. Most people complain about Marth's lack of throw combos, but It'd argue fixing DB is just as pertinent if not more so.

Edit: Also, DB > ^ v > made it impossible for the opponent to DI out of (in Brawl), not the case in Smash 4 right?

 

[FallenHero]

DB and his throws definitely need buffs. IMO d throw only needs to be a little less laggy, but his f throw needs to have way less lag and less knock back. I feel like f throw should combo into all aerials up to a certain %. His up throw needs to be buffed to kill a bit earlier, like 125% I'm thinking. b throw....I dunno what the hell to do with this thing..... Buff DB and his throws and there you go, high tier.

 

[Reizilla]

All I want fixed are his inner hit boxes. But DB1 buff would be nice too. And some auto cancels.

 

[FallenHero]

All I want fixed are his inner hit boxes. But DB1 buff would be nice too. And some auto cancels.

What do you mean by inner hitboxes? I know some of Marth's moves have some weird hitboxes where you see the sword swing there, but there isn't a hitbox there. The back of up tilt, back of up air, and jab right next to the opponent has this.

 

[Reizilla]

That's pretty much exactly what I was talking about. It's so disappointing to get a frametrap up air only for them to land TOO close to you and jab or uptilt whiffs.

 

[FallenHero]

And I don't think Lucina has this problem like Marth does. I don't know, I don't use her.

 

[Shaya]

Ideal:
+0.25 hitbox size on most normals. Blind spots are dumb. If max range from this is an issue (it really wouldn't) also a minor shift horizontally.

Auto Cancel on Up Air adjusted to frame 28 from 38. The lack of any dynamic features to the move in our short hop or full hop games is really disappointing. SH rising Uair is safest when we wait for our natural landing (no fast fall/etc), that to me is pretty ghastly and unnecessary.

Auto Cancel on Down Air adjusted to frame 47 from 55. In Brawl we could full hop rising down air and fast fall and auto cancel, or full hop down air and land on battlefield platforms without lag. Seeing as our "well spaced" hit for this has no knock back/reward, it should function more as a poke than it currently does. Move is pretty alright though.

Dolphin Slash Hitboxes: currently pathetic.
Brawl hitbox: SIZE = 6.5, horizontal displacement = 9 units
Smash4box: SIZE = 4.0, horizontal displacement = 8 units.
That's a HUGE range cut and we know it's too much. Every aerial trades with our recovery on the way up. We're never going to be a consistent high tier character with a recovery flaw like this. Hitbox size of 6.5 and we'll be completely fine I'd say.
The sour spot is the same data as Brawl.

Damage values on Forward Air increased by 1 (will bump shield stun up by 1 frame consistently without fresh modifier). An AC on this would be nice but not a necessary extra option. As much as I hate the fact Marth can't rising fair against any of the viable characters, it's probably better this way.

Throws = Yo it's time to just give us Roy's ****. At least Roy's forward throw specs. He is much more mobile than us and can always get the follow up while we wouldn't be able to. Only problem I have here is that customs marth would probably go full ******-broke, but I don't care about customs enough.
Higher damage on throws would be nice too, Roy does +1/2% more over us bar Down Throw which is tied.

Dash Attack = Something. Melee-ified. It has a frame 49 end in Brawl/S4, but could be acted out of frame 40 in melee. Would not break us. This should happen (I expect it too because of the Ike DA buff). The behind head trajectory may be nice as well but keeping it as a low to the ground out of dash KO option is fine.

Down Smash = really useless. Make it not useless or something iono.

 

[FallenHero]

Marth is so close to being a high tier, if he isn't one by next year I am going to be disappointed.

 

[Vipermoon]

I highly agree with Shaya on this but there one more thing. Hitbox duration.

My opinion. Start-up wise, Jab 1 (they use give frame 4 a sakurai angle so we can get jab locks back) and maybe Ftilt and Fair (might be better to add/extend hitboxes instead for Fair) need another frame. A frame should be added to the end of Ftilt, Utilt, jab 2 (especially jab 2), and Uair (super important, look at how Roy uses it since his goes to frame 12).

Unless Dash Attack ends exactly on frame 40, the tipper really should do more knockback.

Take a few frames off the end of Dsmash and increase the damage of the first hit by 2% both sour and tip and it'll be useful.

EDIT: But I do not agree with the idea that Fair should do 1% more. There is no Fair in this game other than Ryu's that can do this kind of damage with this kind of speed and chainability. Disjoint too. Fix the hitboxes, take a couple frames off the end or a few off the autocancel fine. But Marth isn't supposed to do Ryu kind of damage especially with Fair. What I don't get is how in the hell Marth's Utilt does 6 and 9%. I'd love it if that did 7 and 10 trading some base knockback along the way because dammit you can't get follow-ups on that thing with all that KB. They took 6 frames off Utilt but made sure it had the KB to keep its follow-up game at bay.

 

[AceTechHD]

I tried to make a thread about Marth's range compared to other characters not holding swords (example Ryu's F Smash) It was closed the next day. I was told to come here so does any one else think Marth deserves more range?

 

[FallenHero]

I tried to make a thread about Marth's range compared to other characters not holding swords (example Ryu's F Smash) It was closed the next day. I was told to come here so does any one else think Marth deserves more range?

No, he actually has more range compared to previous games and the only move that might seem like it doesn't have enough range is f smash, even though giving that move more range could make it a bit overpowered.

 

[HFlash]

AceTechHD Marth needs either a better DB or some throw combos before he needs range changes on his fsmash. He got some range buffs on other moves to compensate. Here's Shaya's post on it:

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

Note: If anyone can tell me how to get the link for the specific post as opposed to having to quote the whole thing, I'd appreciate that .

Edit: Replaced quote with link.

 

[AceTechHD]

No, he actually has more range compared to previous games and the only move that might seem like it doesn't have enough range is f smash, even though giving that move more range could make it a bit overpowered.

I see your point but I still find myself using an F smash or F tilt with Marth missing and then getting bodied while opponent didn't move an inch forward this happens quite frequently with Ryu, Zelda, C Falcon and Duck Hunt among others and these characters are not holding swords. I don't think having a little more range would make him OP as his non tippered attacks are all weak to begin with.