Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Reizilla]

Learn to read, Rei.

-Rei

 

[Rashyboy05]

https://twitter.com/fals1fy/status/626178105426771969?s=04

How much of this works on Marth and what's the best way to get out of it?

With Luigi's D-Throw being nerfed. I don't think that combo is scary anymore.

 

[Ekans647]

So who thinks the Shield Breaker was necessary?

 

[CURRY]

So who thinks the Shield Breaker was necessary?

Shield Breaker?
You mean the NERF to shield breaker's shield damage?
I'm kinda sad about it, but I don't know exactly how necessary it was. An uncharged Shield Breaker would *almost* break most characters' full shields anyway, which means that we just had to charge SB for a *tiny* bit or wait until the opponent's shield health was low in order to pop shields.
I'll definitely miss popping shields as often as I did before (I've definitely been popping more shields compared to in Brawl, probably because of the shield buff making shield a really good option up until today), but shield breaking wasn't really even something we relied on anyway.

Speaking of shields... Shield nerf???? (We'll be popping shields even LESS often...)
http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-enigmatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/page-9#post-20220175
Can someone explain what the difference between shield stun and shield hit lag is?
Also, doesn't being forced to block a whole multihit move make multihit moves that aren't able to break shields LESS safe since people can't get shield poked by trying to do OoS options while the multihit move is still active? (e.g. getting caught in those first few frames of roll when trying to roll away from shielding a multihit move)
Sure, multihit moves that break shields like Yoshi dair are more likely to break shields, but when you hit shields with moves like mario dair, I guess you kinda hope for hitting people out of shields even though their shield health is high.
Well... I have to keep in mind that I'm usually playing against FG players anyway, and more competent players probably don't do things as stupid as hitting a full-health shield with Mario dair.

Yooooo, I'm pretty excited to see what the new frame advantage for nair 1 is though.

So I just realized: Shield drop frames weren't nerfed, so run up -> shield is still an ok option, right?

 

[CommanderRin]

Shield stun is the length of time a player is committed to shield on hit.

This patch made it so that hitting a shielding player causes said player shielding to stay in shield longer.

Shield hit lag I'm ignorant about. You can probably just google it tho.

 

[FallenHero]

A lot of people are complaining about the nerf to Marth's shieldbreaker, but I am just like: "I can zone my enemies better with the new shield stun? Cool!" Honestly I never really broke shields that often and when I did it was destroyed instantly by a tipper 80% of the time I did it. The only thing that bothers me about this patch with Marth is that f throw is still trash. I still don't have a Wii U so I don't get to play the new patch until maybe on Friday.

On a side note: Should I get a Wii U or PS4? I want a Wii U for Smash 4 and that is pretty much just it until some other games for the Wii U like Star Fox and Xenoblade X come out. For a PS4 it's pretty similar though I want one to play MGSV and other games coming next year. I honestly really want to play MGSV more than Smash 4, but I do want to be able to practice in this game so I can actually be able to play Smash 4 whenever I feel like instead of having to wait until a weekend to play the game. Half of my friends tell me to get a Wii U and ther other half say PS4, so I really don't know what to do.

 

[Quickhero]

A lot of people are complaining about the nerf to Marth's shieldbreaker, but just like: "I can zone my enemies better with the new shield stun? Cool!" Honestly I never really broke shields that often and when I did it was destroyed instantly by a tipper 80% of the time I did it. The only thing that bothers me about this patch with Marth is that f throw is still trash. I still don't have a Wii U so I don't get to play the new patch until maybe on Friday.

On a side note: Should I get a Wii U or PS4? I want a Wii U for Smash 4 and that is pretty much just it until some other games for the Wii U like Star Fox and Xenoblade X come out. For a PS4 it's pretty similar though I want one to play MGSV and other games coming next year. I honestly really want to play MGSV more than Smash 4, but I do want to be able to practice in this game so I can actually be able to play Smash 4 whenever I feel like instead of having to wait until a weekend to play the game. Half of my friends tell me to get a Wii U and ther other half say PS4, so I really don't know what to do.

Hmm, what other games do you want? I really recommend just using a PC to play MGSV. I'm using an average laptop and I can play a PS4 port (a pretty poorly optimized one, at that) called DMC4:SE decently well, so I'm sure you can play MGSV just fine.

 

[FallenHero]

Hmm, what other games do you want? I really recommend just using a PC to play MGSV. I'm using an average laptop and I can play a PS4 port (a pretty poorly optimized one, at that) called DMC4:SE decently well, so I'm sure you can play MGSV just fine.

lol no. My computer runs Borderlands 2 at 10 fps and can't run CS:GO at all, so that is not an option for me.

 

[Reizilla]

It's my understanding that Shield Breaker (and other shield breaking moves) were nerfed because the mechanic makes you hold shield longer after being hit, meaning that would be an extra 3 or 4 frames of shield reduction. The 5 shield damage-loss is made up by that, so it results in pretty much the same thing.


What I really want to know is how much safer DB is on shield. I imagine DB1 is still pretty punishable, but will it link into DB2 which is safer?

 

[Vipermoon]

That is absolutely not true. You are stuck in shield for 3 or 4 frames but that won't make a different except for 1 shield hp OR if I what I'm finding is correct, shields DON'T lose HP while in shield stun.

 

[FallenHero]

It sucks how so many people are just talking about the SB nerf instead of looking at how the added shield stun to all moves made Marth overall a better character being even safer on shield than before.

 

[Reizilla]

This is why I love this thread. Thank you

 

[Vipermoon]

It sucks how so many people are just talking about the SB nerf instead of looking at how the added shield stun to all moves made Marth overall a better character being even safer on shield than before.

That affected every character. We are talking about a move called SHIELD BREAKER being nerfed in its ability to shield break. You don't care. I do.

 

[FallenHero]

That affected every character. We are talking about a move called SHIELD BREAKER being nerfed in its ability to shield break. You don't care. I do.

I do care, but I think even though it affected every character it probably affected Marth a lot more than it for other characters.

 

[Vipermoon]

I do care, but I think even though it affected every character it probably affected Marth a lot more than it for other characters.

But you're right in saying that we have to discuss Marth's ability to pressure shields. And we will as we notice and discover things.

I'd love it if Fsmash were safe on shield (it probably still isn't but probably got close). Shield hitlag was changed too so we'll find out exactly how and that will let us know about Fsmash.

But it's obvious that we won't have the luxuries other character groups are already finding like Lucario's aura sphere shield lock. It's too soon to tell if this even helps Marth in an "above average" fashon like you claim.

 

[FallenHero]

Well the move can still break shields instantly with a tipper right? Also there was already a solution found to escape the aura sphere lock, though you still take a ton of shield damage.

 

[Vipermoon]

The tipper doesn't help at all. 1% more damage w/e.

 

[A_Kae]

Well the move can still break shields instantly with a tipper right? Also there was already a solution found to escape the aura sphere lock, though you still take a ton of shield damage.

Uh, no. SB just does 1 more damage (2 more fully charged) tipped.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I understand some of you are distressed at Shieldbreaker's reduction in shield damage. May I just say that in the last few months where Marth was not only viable but a threatening character to face, shieldbreaker was easily the most obnoxious aspect of fighting him. I've even picked up Lucina a bunch casually to fight competitive friends with, and I got at least one shield break per 2stock match despite not knowing the ins and outs of the character. It was almost effortless. Again, I don't play the character, but stop and correct me as soon as my observations don't accurately describe Marth's game plan and abilities. Marth is what some call a "mid-range zoner" His long, disjointed sword moveset gives him plenty of range and priority, and tippers give him a focus on proper spacing. His moves let him juggle characters and make it difficult for them to land via attacks or air dodge. And covering landings feels like Shieldbreaker's most potent application. If they attack Marth on the way down, they have to be able to bite past the sword. And shieldbreaker is chargeable, so timing your attack to hit your opponent when vulnerable during an airdodge landing or techroll is very trivial. Already we're dealing with a move that beats (most) attacks, shield, and grab since there is no grab armor. These are the three conventional "moves" in conceptual Smash for challenging your opponent's moves. The only option left is to spend your double jump to avoid it altogether, and that is not the mark of a balanced move. God forbid Marth took your double jump as well.

Shieldbreaker is also potent for Marth covering his own landings and approaching. It just isn't an easy move to punish or avoid by nature. It's also menacing for covering ledge options, and probably has more applications that you guys have cooked up.

You're right to argue that shieldbreaker will not break a shield uncharged, but all it takes is a sour Fair, sour Ftilt, or virtually any of Marth's moves to have connected on their shield in order to get them past that threshold. This is absurd. Marth spends most of his gameplan attacking and spacing. And I don't need to tell anybody here about the potential reward off a successful shieldbreak. I have to be wary of using my shield when I know it isn't at max health. This move was too overpowering, and I'm happy to see it's potential taken down just a step.

Do I need to remind you that this patch made your Tipper's no longer disadvantaged on shield? You're not fighting against hitlag modifiers anymore. Shieldlag for the attacker and defender on hitlag modified moves has finally been equalized. The universal increase in shieldstun further helps you in attacking shields. Losing SB strength in exchange for making everything else in your moveset safer on shield is a good deal. And I always fantasized about the day that Marth and some other constantly buffed characters would finally receive a substantial nerf, and how it's player base would react. It's a bit too telling to see it in reality.

But I don't want to come off as antagonizing. I'm just providing a perspective that some of you might not be privy to. The perspective of people who have to fight Marth rather than play him. If you agreed with even a little of my analysis, then you should be able to see the justification of shieldbreaker's nerf.

 

[FallenHero]

I feel like a tipper SB should always break shields and with no tipper it should take 2/4 charge to break a shield.

 

[DariusM27]

But I don't want to come off as antagonizing. I'm just providing a perspective that some of you might not be privy to. The perspective of people who have to fight Marth rather than play him. If you agreed with even a little of my analysis, then you should be able to see the justification of shieldbreaker's nerf.

The pretension is oozing from this guy.

Marth was lower tier already. If you got you shield broken from him before, then you were a scrub. The move was entirely unviable at tourny play. They almost entirely killed his shieldbreaker potential, which was one of his only trump cards. Marth will continue to get the h*ll combo'd out of him from the high tiers easy automatic combos. Hitstun on shield may help a little bit, but it doesn't flip the tier list by any means, or equalize the gameplay. They nerfed a low tier character. And yes, it was an unnecessary nerf.

 

[Vipermoon]

I have a lot of respect for Zapp and he makes some good points. And yes, we have definitely cooked up SB applications.

But I disagree that SB was abusable and that this was justified.

I do agree that at lower and casual levels of play, this move is too much. That's why over half the Lucinas on FG spam the heck out of it and it's super annoying (but I easily bop them for it). They can't land without anything except SB.

 

[Shaya]

Marth took a beating this patch, in more ways than one.
I'm not even particularly concerned with the 5 shield damage reduction; I mean, it's pretty painful that we've lost second charge as essentially a full shield break.

But in terms of comparative net games...

Any character with extra hit lag modifiers now give the opponent more time to shield shuffle; this is probably becoming essential for handling ryu in the future, but for marth the likelihood someone's going to get a single input towards him to cover some of his spacing distances is, well about 25% more likely on everything.

Roy's sour spots at max range are less safe than before. Marth's sour spots are less safe than before.
These two characters just got nerfed, and Lucina comparatively got a lot better.

But yeah... Lucina would be closer to Marth/Roy now than before, only because those two are now weaker.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth took a beating this patch, in more ways than one.
I'm not even particularly concerned with the 5 shield damage reduction; I mean, it's pretty painful that we've lost second charge as essentially a full shield break.

But in terms of comparative net games...

Any character with extra hit lag modifiers now give the opponent more time to shield shuffle; this is probably becoming essential for handling ryu in the future, but for marth the likelihood someone's going to get a single input towards him to cover some of his spacing distances is, well about 25% more likely on everything.

Roy's sour spots at max range are less safe than before. Marth's sour spots are less safe than before.
These two characters just got nerfed, and Lucina comparatively got a lot better.

But yeah... Lucina would be closer to Marth/Roy now than before, only because those two are now weaker.

Oh crap. So that's the consensus on the shield hitlag? It now matches hitlag of the attack. So even if his sour spots do more shield stun, that gain is nullified by losing the hitlag advantage. At least tipper smash attacks and SB became safer but that gain is so small it doesn't even matter.

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy's sour spots at max range are less safe than before. Marth's sour spots are less safe than before.

Actually just came in to ask about this. Hm. How much were they hurt? I'm hearing it's a pretty big deal.

 

[CURRY]

Shaya pls

it's pretty painful that we've lost second charge as essentially a full shield break.

I don't understand, can you reword what you meant here?

Also, shield shuffling? So that's shield SDI, right? I've never really tried it because I feel like I might buffer a roll as a result. So is it something I should be trying to do now since there's more shieldstun?

Also, what's the difference between shield hitlag and shieldstun? I'm assuming that they both affect the shielder? And attack hitlag is (or at least, used to be) seperate?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The pretension is oozing from this guy.

The move was entirely unviable at tourny play. They almost entirely killed his shieldbreaker potential, which was one of his only trump cards.

These sentences immediately contradict each other. If a move serves as a "trump card", then of course it's viable enough to use in a match. And if it's not viable at all, then I'll need you to vouch that it has no uses. Following this, I have to point out if a useless move gets nerfed, why complain? Nothing has changed.
As for the rest of the argument, I have to reiterate that we're not talking about 1.04 Marth here. He's less punishable, he has followups, excellent utility from moves that previously had none (jab, Nair). I couldn't tell you where Marth/Lucina sits on a tier list, but it's not low tier. Try playing the likes of Duck Hunt, Bowser Jr, Wii Fit, Samus, Dr. Mario, Mii Gunner, and others in a competitive setting so you can see how they match up against actual mid and top tiers. My opinion? Marcina is among the ocean of mid tiers. Many of the less priveleged cast fear that sword, and don't have as potent means of getting past it now that your moves have dropped significantly in endlag/landlag. Add good edgeguarding, good ability to escape combos and shield pressure, and a wicked jab for followups, and you could take locals with a steady level of commitment.

And it sounds like my mentioning of Marth's previous shieldlag issue went right over your head and that you were never aware of it. The removal of this issue is a buff to his toolkit that is separate from the shieldstun buff that all characters now have. I mention it mostly because if your "shield breaker" move gets nerfed, but your ability to attack shields in general without punishment is buffed, it's a good compensation for the possibility of you ever breaking somebody's shield in the first place. You have to see the logic in that

I do agree that at lower and casual levels of play, this move is too much. That's why over half the Lucinas on FG spam the heck out of it and it's super annoying (but I easily bop them for it). They can't land without anything except SB.

Ah, but a move that's good at casual settings doesn't inversely make it bad for competitive settings. For instance, Diddy's monkey flip, Ganon's flame choke, Bowser's Bowser Bomb and the art of dodge rolling (mostly prior to the vulnerability changes as of late) are all overpowering in the For Glory setting, but you'd be hard pressed to find competitive players not using these moves ever in a serious match. They're good moves, the context and frequency that they may be used doesn't change the game's data.
But you're right, you can get past a shield breaker if you know what you're doing and you have access to the right options. Perhaps now is a good time to mention that I don't play as Sheik. Or anybody with comparable frame data. I make use of intricately different options simply because my characters lack the most optimal ones carried by top tiers. frame 2 jabs, frame 3 Nairs, moves that are invulnerable on startup to get past a sword with, a luma, things like that. Again you could add to the list. I used to enjoy easy 55:45 MUs with Marth, and now I struggle to see it as even most days I'm researching it. He's a good character. Even if that's my opinion, I hope most of you can agree, seeing as how you are playing him.

No more word of this from me. I spoken my piece regarding shieldbreaker. I'm just hoping you guys will cool it on the subject in threads not concerning Marth or the move, like, say the patch thread. We don't know the full impact the shield changes will have from here on, and we don't like gossip and complaining in settings where we're supposed to be researching and data mining things. Plus I've had a lot of experience fighting a marth main, so I thought maybe my perspective might hold some weight for the other side of the discussion. I didn't want it to come off as pretension, obviously.

 

[ben1707]

How can we deal with aggro Ike post patch? I've always had trouble with that matchup, but extra Shield Stun seems to be making it even worse. I got DESTROYED in FG, because NONE of my options Pre-Patch seemed to be working at all. I feel like heavyweights like him are the ones most benefited from this patch, now that they have Shield Pushback + Shield Stun. Oh god, imagine DK and Ness. They must be laughing HARD right now.

 

[Bribery]

How much safety did he lose on his sour spots? What about his tippers? Shouldn't those be safer due to having higher hit lag multipliers?

It makes sense from a balance perspective between Marth, Lucina, and Roy but it sucks that Marth took a hit. The shield changes seemed favourable for Marth at first.

 

[Shaya]

2 frames off most sour spots, 3 or so on some smashes I think.

 

[NinfanNanz]

I am still lost on how Marth took a beating. Could someone explain? I am sorry for being ignorant, just these shield changes are super confusing to me.

 

[PK Gaming]

The Shieldbreaker nerf is whatever (it was situational move anyway) but Marth's sourspots being made less is definitely disappointing.

I'm still going to develop my Marth, but I'm definitely hoping for that next patch for potential buffs.

 

[Vipermoon]

Forget about buffs. There are so many things in the long term that need fixing. Other characters are starting to make sense and Marth will be left in the dust.

Fix, don't buff, the hitboxes' duration and sizes on: jabs, ftilt, utilt, fsmash, fair, uair, dair, and DS.

Furthermore, I'm sick and tired of most characters avoiding DB2. It's getting really old, especially against frame 3 Nairs. Either raise DB2's swipe like it was in previous games or reduce vertical KB of DB1. You need to be as close as possible to get horizontal KB on DB1. I thought we were supposed to be spacing?

I also want my shield breaker back. Make it weak, I don't care (I'm frankly tired of my character's kill power, so I'd welcome it); but don't you dare take away its name sake. Even if they restored the old shield damage to just the tipper and give Lucina an in-betweener I'd be fine.

If I can get a Marth like this I swear I'll never ask for IASA, damage, autocancel, or throw changes ever again.

Sorry guys. This is a Marth thread so this is where I do Marth venting. Better here than somewhere else.

 

[Quickhero]

Okay, so a special event thing happened at my school where you had to dress up as something for whatever reason, and I decided to come as Marth. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how many people knew it was Marth and complimented me on it, even though FE is kind of a niche franchise. I just find it cool to see how much Smash helps franchises, as I doubt Marth would be recognizeable to most if not for Smash.

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay, so a special event thing happened at my school where you had to dress up as something for whatever reason, and I decided to come as Marth. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how many people knew it was Marth and complimented me on it, even though FE is kind of a niche franchise. I just find it cool to see how much Smash helps franchises, as I doubt Marth would be recognizeable to most if not for Smash.

How did you manage to dress up as Marth? What did you have/not have? Marth cosplay suits are generally really expensive and not good quality/accuracy.

Edit: cool though

 

[Quickhero]

How did you manage to dress up as Marth? What did you have/not have? Marth cosplay suits are generally really expensive and not good quality/accuracy.

Edit: cool though

My cosplay is the definition of mediocre, but I guess I should explain how I did it. I had a black cloth that was incredibly cape like and it reached up to ankles so I decided to use that as the cape. I bought yellow paint, a cheap headband that had that white fabric so I could paint it over, and just a normal sized (probably should've got a bigger one in hindsight) black shirt and painted the stripe toward the center of Marth's shirt. Then, I simply used cardboard to cut out the armor pieces (painted black yellow edges) and I just used some ribbons to tie it to the designated areas. I put the cape over all of that, and pinned the cape to my shoulders to make sure the cape doesn't leave the shoulders. Then, I added a poorly made jewel thing that's on Marth's cape, put on some nice black pants and used my mother's sleeved fingerless gloves and yeah that's about it.

I could probably show it to you, but only if you're willing to accept that it's incredibly mediocre and may induce cringes. As I said, don't have the budget. :S

 

[FallenHero]

I honestly do not care that Marth's sour spots are even less safe on shield, because I never felt like they even should be safe on shield. I always try to land a tipper fair when I think the opponent will try to shield or will get hit anyways, won't this mean his tippers are safer?

It is unfortunate that this game is balanced for casual play, so this game may never end up being like how we want it to be. If it were up to me this game would have airdodges like in Rivals of Aether without the wavedashing.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I understand some of you are distressed at Shieldbreaker's reduction in shield damage. May I just say that in the last few months where Marth was not only viable but a threatening character to face, shieldbreaker was easily the most obnoxious aspect of fighting him. I've even picked up Lucina a bunch casually to fight competitive friends with, and I got at least one shield break per 2stock match despite not knowing the ins and outs of the character. It was almost effortless. Again, I don't play the character, but stop and correct me as soon as my observations don't accurately describe Marth's game plan and abilities. Marth is what some call a "mid-range zoner" His long, disjointed sword moveset gives him plenty of range and priority, and tippers give him a focus on proper spacing. His moves let him juggle characters and make it difficult for them to land via attacks or air dodge. And covering landings feels like Shieldbreaker's most potent application. If they attack Marth on the way down, they have to be able to bite past the sword. And shieldbreaker is chargeable, so timing your attack to hit your opponent when vulnerable during an airdodge landing or techroll is very trivial. Already we're dealing with a move that beats (most) attacks, shield, and grab since there is no grab armor. These are the three conventional "moves" in conceptual Smash for challenging your opponent's moves. The only option left is to spend your double jump to avoid it altogether, and that is not the mark of a balanced move. God forbid Marth took your double jump as well.

Shieldbreaker is also potent for Marth covering his own landings and approaching. It just isn't an easy move to punish or avoid by nature. It's also menacing for covering ledge options, and probably has more applications that you guys have cooked up.

You're right to argue that shieldbreaker will not break a shield uncharged, but all it takes is a sour Fair, sour Ftilt, or virtually any of Marth's moves to have connected on their shield in order to get them past that threshold. This is absurd. Marth spends most of his gameplan attacking and spacing. And I don't need to tell anybody here about the potential reward off a successful shieldbreak. I have to be wary of using my shield when I know it isn't at max health. This move was too overpowering, and I'm happy to see it's potential taken down just a step.

Do I need to remind you that this patch made your Tipper's no longer disadvantaged on shield? You're not fighting against hitlag modifiers anymore. Shieldlag for the attacker and defender on hitlag modified moves has finally been equalized. The universal increase in shieldstun further helps you in attacking shields. Losing SB strength in exchange for making everything else in your moveset safer on shield is a good deal. And I always fantasized about the day that Marth and some other constantly buffed characters would finally receive a substantial nerf, and how it's player base would react. It's a bit too telling to see it in reality.

But I don't want to come off as antagonizing. I'm just providing a perspective that some of you might not be privy to. The perspective of people who have to fight Marth rather than play him. If you agreed with even a little of my analysis, then you should be able to see the justification of shieldbreaker's nerf.

Lot of what you are saying still needs extensive testing. The math doesn't make perfect sense to me yet but it seems like if we didn't get the nerf it still wouldn't one hit shields. If an uncharged SB did 39% shield damage before, and holding your shield is about 1% per game then I don't see how the 3ish frames of shieldstun hurts anyone's chances of not being shield broken.

I find myself conflicted. On the one hand, I get a bunch of new options (so does everyone). But I am now losing a huge part of what makes Marth who he is.

Identity is important in a character driven game. Having a move called shield breaker that doesn't break shields any better than other characters can hurts, especially with how risky the move is. Marth mains are right to be upset about it.

As far as a gameplay standpoint, I still don't see SB as being broken enough to deserve the nerf mathematically. Or at least as much as it got.

What competitive setting are you in that Marth is considered a serious threat? That's pretty much the only thing I disagree with you on. He wasn't the worst, but he could not hold a candle to even a third of the high tiers, let alone top tiers. I have a lot of high level experience, and I know for a fact Marth was lacking.

 

[Vipermoon]

Well said Ben.

My cosplay is the definition of mediocre, but I guess I should explain how I did it. I had a black cloth that was incredibly cape like and it reached up to ankles so I decided to use that as the cape. I bought yellow paint, a cheap headband that had that white fabric so I could paint it over, and just a normal sized (probably should've got a bigger one in hindsight) black shirt and painted the stripe toward the center of Marth's shirt. Then, I simply used cardboard to cut out the armor pieces (painted black yellow edges) and I just used some ribbons to tie it to the designated areas. I put the cape over all of that, and pinned the cape to my shoulders to make sure the cape doesn't leave the shoulders. Then, I added a poorly made jewel thing that's on Marth's cape, put on some nice black pants and used my mother's sleeved fingerless gloves and yeah that's about it.

I could probably show it to you, but only if you're willing to accept that it's incredibly mediocre and may induce cringes. As I said, don't have the budget. :S

You can PM me the costume if you want, I won't make fun of it. It sounds like a lot of hard work. Nice job making one.

 

[FallenHero]

Can someone tell me if Marth's tippers are safer now?