Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[A_Kae]

The new matchup thread is here!

http://smashboards.com/threads/matc...alysis-directory-currently-discussing.414156/

If you have any suggestions for improvements to this thread or the overall project, please let me know.

Also, suggestions for who to discuss first.

 

[SilverForUbers]

The new matchup thread is here!

http://smashboards.com/threads/matc...alysis-directory-currently-discussing.414156/

If you have any suggestions for improvements to this thread or the overall project, please let me know.

Also, suggestions for who to discuss first.

RosaLuma?

I had lots of trouble with D3 players before I started baiting out most of their attacks; try to get a D3 player to act first, then punish.

What are your main problems with the D3 matchup?

I think I just struggle with D3's massive range and Ledge Traps with Gordo.

 

[KillLock]

Is Dair supposed to be a bad move or something? It has quite a few applications and shield pressure can be applied with it in interesting ways now.

 

[A_Kae]

RosaLuma?

Certainly! Just give me a few minutes to make a template for the matchup threads themselves, since I completely forget to make those.

 

[Langston777]

don't just use marth's dair to spike, you'll appreciate it a lot more

 

[SilverForUbers]

Is Dair supposed to be a bad move or something? It has quite a few applications and shield pressure can be applied with it in interesting ways now.

After it's buff Dair is a safer move to use, but I still don't think it's a move you can throw out safely on stage since it still has massive landing lag.

Edit: It's good as an OoS option and can be used when retreating to surprise your opponent due to its range.

 

[KillLock]

After it's buff Dair is a safer move to use, but I still don't think it's a move you can throw out safely on stage since it still has massive landing lag.

Edit: It's good as an OoS option and can be used when retreating to surprise your opponent due to its range.

Try using it more, such as on shield cross ups. If you hit with the back end of the animation on shield by the time you land you'll find yourself in a very comfortable position afterwards. It all depends how you use it but imo it is a fantastic move for Marth's arsenal and it is highly underused and misunderstood.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Try using it more, such as on shield cross ups. If you hit with the back end of the animation on shield by the time you land you'll find yourself in a very comfortable position afterwards. It all depends how you use it but imo it is a fantastic move for Marth's arsenal and it is highly underused and misunderstood.

Yeah, I probably should. The main times I use it are for roll reads.

 

[Locuan]

@ SilverForUbers , careful with double posting as it's against Smashboards Terms and Rules. I went ahead and merged those posts. On another note, Rosa is a good choice to start of with. We should cover those high tier threats first as I'm sure that's what most users will be interested in.

 

[SilverForUbers]

@ SilverForUbers , careful with double posting as it's against Smashboards Terms and Rules. I went ahead and merged those posts. On another note, Rosa is a good choice to start of with. We should cover those high tier threats first as I'm sure that's what most users will be interested in.

Oops. Sorry about that.

Edit: And by double posting, do you mean posting something and then posting again before someone else has commented?

 

[Locuan]

Edit: And by double posting, do you mean posting something and then posting again before someone else has commented?

Precisely. In those situations, use the edit function.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Precisely. In those situations, use the edit function.

Alright. Thanks.

 

[HFlash]

So it's pretty much established that Marth is like a high mid tier character at this point due to all the buffs

Yet I still see a lot of places where Roy is considered better. MY question is that how does Marth stack up to the higher tiers compared to Roy?

Nothing is really "established" as there hasn't been a recent tier list done, and the fact of the matter is that the patches are completely changing how some characters rank vs the rest of the cast, particularly between the middle of the pack and the tail end. Also add the fact that (aside from maybe 64) the difference between viability in the "best and worst" characters in the game is the smallest in this game, meaning characters are alot closer in this game (and add that there are over 50 characters) all make it EXTREMELY difficult to make an accurate tier list.

Yep, Shield Breaker is to be sparingly used in advantage. That is where it shines.

But Shaya in this game SB charges on a y=x slope. Unless you meant something else by "second charge of 12%"?

As I mentioned in the first post of this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/conditioning-your-opponents-shield-for-the-break.407649/
At 12% (or 13% tipper) the damage and shield damage scaling is enough to break a full HP shield.

@ Chalice Also Marth's off-stage game is really good and Roy is usually going to be the victim off-stage.

Yes, I didn't mean to use it as in every other move, but using it about 1 or 2 times per stock, trying to pressure the opponent in possible early kills. How much do you have to charge it so that SB is at 12%? I couldn't find it in the post you linked.

And @ SilverForUbers , try approaching from the air. I haven't had much Marth/D3 experience, but I have had plenty of Falcon/D3 experience. Both characters have great air games, and need to approach in this MU. However, all D3 can really do to you from afar is throw gordos. That's it. All you gotta do is fair them away (which will always work, anything that does 2% or more will reflect gordos). I really don't see a good way to approach as his ftilt comes out relatively quick, and completely stuffs a ground based approach. Do safe spaced aerials, and once you get a fair, or nair on D3, it should be combo city for you.

 

[Vipermoon]

You just know with practice. Try it out in training mode. SB is different than Brawl because charging it increases percentage by 1% (or less) increments (that's what I mean by y=x or damage=time).

With that said, it's better to keep in the back of your mind their sheild health and obviously try to go for the break when you know it will break with no charge. Because you want to be as fast as possible of course.

 

[Chalice]

Gunblade's use of SB was pretty sick since most people expect a Fair off the ledge and they shield.

Personally, I don't really use SB but would like to try and implement it more. I just got out of the habit of doing it after a full hop/short hop towards an opponent since it usually ends badly for me

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah it works for me too. I've done it to PR players and nooby players alike. Once though. Gunblade did it twice which was hilarious but that wasn't supposed to happen.

A lot of times they shield because the want to shield > grab expecting a normal ledge get-up.

 

[Saki-]

Soooo what does Marthcina do against Starfox characters?

 

[Chalice]

Eaten alive if you don't keep moving and not shield. Gotta play keep away since Fox can get in quick. He fast falls hard though so Marcina can rack up a lot of damage with Uairs/UTilt. Falco too except he's not as fast on the ground so it's a bit easier IMO

 

[Buffoon]

Soooo what does Marthcina do against Starfox characters?

Force them into an off-stage Up-B, then counter as they try to approach the ledge.

When fighting Fox, I'd recommend using the neutral DB since Fox falls fast enough to block the finisher of the down variant.

 

[Saki-]

Not sure what it was, but they kept falling out of my DB..... And punishing me for it. Getting them off stage didn't matter because of how well they utilized phantom.

Like my issues were that I couldnt breathe. Running pivot grabs or dash attack mix ups and oh god that jab. Battlefield gimped me more than helped me due to how well he can chase and abuse me on platforms.

 

[kj22]

Not sure what it was, but they kept falling out of my DB..... And punishing me for it. Getting them off stage didn't matter because of how well they utilized phantom.

Like my issues were that I couldnt breathe. Running pivot grabs or dash attack mix ups and oh god that jab. Battlefield gimped me more than helped me due to how well he can chase and abuse me on platforms.

Sounds like you were being hounded

 

[Shaya]

Tournament yesterday, got second with Marf only (in matches that counted, tried out Ike in several sets), first time using tilt stick in person/tournament, so I had lots of tech flubs all over the place but I think the overall merits are worth it (I would recommend you switch over just to mix up your practice, you realise what habits you have in your controller choices).
Like, easy walking down tilt or crouching up tilt are gdlk. Easier aerial control is nice, but if smash stick + analog still gave tilts I would be keeping with smash stick (down analog + c stick up used to give up tilts too, ffs).
It's actually overall really frustrating to me how the controls have changed in a way that severely hampers my execution... the tilt stick switch made me realise that I may have to sit down and focus on relearning how to use a gamecube controller or something.

Lost to Charizard, ughhhhhh I feel awful about that. Got out clutched in too many situations although generally had good control of the match.
Charizard's forward smash animation mimics his dash turn around, that literally cost me 4 stocks out of 2 best of 5 sets [I'm so bad]. Also not knowing/respecting how to deal with Fly (Up-B), wake/get up Fly also ****ed me out of many many stocks.

But... shield breaker though...
I got so many shieldbreaks
Ledge drop shieldbreaker is all sorts of fantastic.
Actually ledge drop options are pretty alright in general, not sure why everyone forgoes this, it's not like you had invincibility still from a ledge drop in Brawl by the time you were attacking someone on stage.

Wavebounce shieldbreaker is really good/a lot better than I give it credit for. RAR fairs are spiffy for some reason.
If you fair someone near a ledge and they land into the ground without a tech, it's amazing to me how good it feels knowing they're dead as I start charging shieldbreaker.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Speaking of Wavebouncing, can anyone explain to me how to Wavebounce a grounded Shield Breaker? I can never seem to do it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Tournament yesterday, got second with Marf only (in matches that counted, tried out Ike in several sets), first time using tilt stick in person/tournament, so I had lots of tech flubs all over the place but I think the overall merits are worth it (I would recommend you switch over just to mix up your practice, you realise what habits you have in your controller choices).
Like, easy walking down tilt or crouching up tilt are gdlk. Easier aerial control is nice, but if smash stick + analog still gave tilts I would be keeping with smash stick (down analog + c stick up used to give up tilts too, ffs).
It's actually overall really frustrating to me how the controls have changed in a way that severely hampers my execution... the tilt stick switch made me realise that I may have to sit down and focus on relearning how to use a gamecube controller or something.

Lost to Charizard, ughhhhhh I feel awful about that. Got out clutched in too many situations although generally had good control of the match.
Charizard's forward smash animation mimics his dash turn around, that literally cost me 4 stocks out of 2 best of 5 sets [I'm so bad]. Also not knowing/respecting how to deal with Fly (Up-B), wake/get up Fly also ****ed me out of many many stocks.

But... shield breaker though...
I got so many shieldbreaks
Ledge drop shieldbreaker is all sorts of fantastic.
Actually ledge drop options are pretty alright in general, not sure why everyone forgoes this, it's not like you had invincibility still from a ledge drop in Brawl by the time you were attacking someone on stage.

Wavebounce shieldbreaker is really good/a lot better than I give it credit for. RAR fairs are spiffy for some reason.
If you fair someone near a ledge and they land into the ground without a tech, it's amazing to me how good it feels knowing they're dead as I start charging shieldbreaker.

Good, I'm glad. Tilt stick is much better overall IMO. Keep practicing that. BUT I HATE how you can do Nairs and Jabs with Tilt stick. There seems to be no way of reliably doing it on purpose but accidentally it happens enough that it will screw you over every once in a while and I hate it for that. No such thing as perfect controls.

Shield Breaker is very versatile. It's deeper than non-Marth mains think.

 

[Shaya]

It's every corner angle on the c stick, the 45 degree grooves that exist are all you need to maneuver the stick into.
If it wasn't for nair/jab on tilt stick I probably would be opting to stick with smash. Full control of the analog stick with neutral airs is very good (especially with ZSS), retreating and/or fast falling nairs faster than I'm sure most people could do so without it.
Walking jab is also solid.

Realistically the fact that shield di exists, means that you can walk, shield, likely get an input forward (this **** is actually silly how far you go, you kinda negate most character's shield knockback with a single input) and buffer shield drop jab.

 

[ReRaze]

Good, I'm glad. Tilt stick is much better overall IMO. Keep practicing that. BUT I HATE how you can do Nairs and Jabs with Tilt stick. There seems to be no way of reliably doing it on purpose but accidentally it happens enough that it will screw you over every once in a while and I hate it for that. No such thing as perfect controls.

Shield Breaker is very versatile. It's deeper than non-Marth mains think.

I think there is a reliable way of doing it (from experience), you have to tilt the c stick slightly in a diagonal direction. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

edit: lol what @ Shaya said he got to it before me.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's every corner angle on the c stick, the 45 degree grooves that exist are all you need to maneuver the stick into.
If it wasn't for nair/jab on tilt stick I probably would be opting to stick with smash. Full control of the analog stick with neutral airs is very good (especially with ZSS), retreating and/or fast falling nairs faster than I'm sure most people could do so without it.
Walking jab is also solid.

Realistically the fact that shield di exists, means that you can walk, shield, likely get an input forward (this **** is actually silly how far you go, you kinda negate most character's shield knockback with a single input) and buffer shield drop jab.

I see. I should have sat down and looked at it. I kept forgetting I guess. I never really had a problem with Nairs and Jabs using but I suppose that was just me missing out on basically all the stuff you mentioned (I especially like buffered jab out of shield DI).

Right now I am not precise enough to be able to avoid Jab and Nair every time... which also means I am not precise enough to purposely get Nair and Jab. I'll have to practice this because I need to take care of the issue.

Edit: Shaya, is it easier to use the upper corners or lower corners in your opinion?

 

[Shaya]

Upper corners. Also as uair/bairs are "safer" to accidentally input over down airs I'd say. Would you be surprised if tech flub bairs are getting me roll punishes that blow my mind?

I personally tend to prefer flicking it 135 degrees in either direction I'm facing (for most consistent), while I'm probably 1/15-20 less consistent on using 45.

And yeah, I felt that using A for jabs/nair was a pretty fast thing, heck Brawl Nair wasn't coined Shayair (by me obviously~) for nothing. However Marth's technical requirements/timing for nairing are a lot less strict than ZSS. And you'll definitely notice how much faster you're doing walking or skid stop jabs without what's likely at least 2 odd frames of time lost by letting go of the stick.

 

[Vipermoon]

Upper corners. Also as uair/bairs are "safer" to accidentally input over down airs I'd say. Would you be surprised if tech flub bairs are getting me roll punishes that blow my mind?

I personally tend to prefer flicking it 135 degrees in either direction I'm facing (for most consistent), while I'm probably 1/15-20 less consistent on using 45.

And yeah, I felt that using A for jabs/nair was a pretty fast thing, heck Brawl Nair wasn't coined Shayair (by me obviously~) for nothing. However Marth's technical requirements/timing for nairing are a lot less strict than ZSS. And you'll definitely notice how much faster you're doing walking or skid stop jabs without what's likely at least 2 odd frames of time lost by letting go of the stick.

Good point. Though at the same time, Dtilts are safer than Utits lol. And I wouldn't be surprised that happens.

Flicking the stick backwards is interesting. I'll look into it.

Exactly, I need to figure out when to use tilt stick and when to use A. I can't see myself using it over skidding jab because the latter is just so easy, but who knows... maybe I'll get super good tilt stick.

 

[ReRaze]

Wait from reading the above posts did I understand correctly that shield DI still exists?

 

[HFlash]

Wavebounce shieldbreaker is really good/a lot better than I give it credit for.

HMMM IF ONLY SOMEONE JUST MENTIONED HOW GREAT USING MORE SHIELD BREAKER WAS IN SMASH 4 MARTH JUST THE OTHER DAY .... in this very thread.

I'm telling you, having this tool against shields makes up for the fact that we have no grab follow ups, but it is but a squire's lowly opinion. I find it useful to use vs pretty much anyone except zoning characters.
Also, tilt c stick can get some getting use to, but not having to do the whole "flick" thing when c sticking aerials is really nice. Even if you are really good at it, (unless you are a robot), you will always lose at least a little momentum even if it miniscule doing aerial c stick moves. Why add extra work when you can just use c sticking. Also most people at the heat of the moment, tend to flubb tilts over smashes but, that is just a generalization, not set in stone.

And @ Vipermoon . Really? Being able to jump and instantaneously nair is a really nice feature to have for characters that have nice nairs. It is again something that does get some getting used to, but I always make it so that I use the top right sort of "corner" of the c stick whole to do my nairs. Always, don't try using the other 3 corners because you want to get the consistent muscle memory for the nair to come out consistently when you want it too. It's worth the effort imo.

If both of you guys can get wave bouncing and fox trotting down (which I'm sure you guys have already), you both can get used to c sticking no problem. (I am having trouble consistently getting the 2 former down, and c sticking is very 2nd nature to me now).

I think there is a reliable way of doing it (from experience), you have to tilt the c stick slightly in a diagonal direction. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

edit: lol what @ Shaya said he got to it before me.

That's exactly how you do it. Tilt the c stick exactly into one of the 4 c stick hole "corners." If it's a bit off, another aerial will come out

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I might be late on this since I have not been on the website in a while, but how do you guys feel about False picking up Marth? I asked him in a stream who his main was and he said Sheik, but he really likes using Marth now.

 

[Vipermoon]

False IMO is smart, technical, and tries hard to optimise his characters. From what I've seen from his Marth he's on the right track (doing every the right way) and I definitely think it's a good match for him. But he tends to get bored of characters quickly (what he told me on stream when I also visited to ask about Marth) so we'll see what happens.

 

[Shaya]

HFlash, chill, your words had no impact on my thoughts on the move.
I'm going to remain skeptical of those who have primarily played marth online will actually use it as a trapping tool over a pseudo-win-button.

I'm not using it to beat shields, I'm using it as something that outranges everything and can have fantastic rewards on shield if they react poorly. If I see a shield before I commit, I'm not picking shieldbreaker as that's giving competent opponents a free reactive punish. .

 

[HFlash]

The first sentence of my last post was meant to be taken lightly, and specified that it's only an opinion. The move still needs to be labbed and experimented on higher level play. I won't really be able to start going to tournaments till mid October, so I'll add more on that move whenever that happens.

 

[Shaya]

I knew it was meant to be taken lightly
But you don't improve not having your perceptions of things challenged, that's more important to me and definitely for you in the medium to long term.

 

[kj22]

I knew it was meant to be taken lightly
But you don't improve not having your perceptions of things challenged...
Xyz.

Shaya shaya shaya! Shayanair is the worst move in brawl(;

 

[Gunblade789]

When it comes to SB I actually condition people into it a lot of the time. The only times I really just do it are when people approach the edge and if someone is on the SV platform. When someone is on that platform what do they almost ALWAYS do when you jump at them? block. lol. Just try to get used to spacing it on the tip so if they spotdodge it or something you can just dip.

I find d-tilt conditioning along with fair and empty hops really set up SB very well. If you do SB within the same motion and timing as your rising fair you will pop some shields.

 

[Reizilla]

Does Marth's jab ever actually set up into tipper fsmash? If so, what's the spacing? Tipped? Untipped? I haven't gotten it to tip once yet.

 

[A_Kae]

Does Marth's jab ever actually set up into tipper fsmash? If so, what's the spacing? Tipped? Untipped? I haven't gotten it to tip once yet.

Tipped jab combos into tipped f-smash starting at 154% on Marth. Other characters will be different.