Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[Scar]

Lean is the framework I've been using to focus my practice. Basically I read a book and found that its ideas about business are applicable to Melee.

 

[DuckPimp]

Lean is the framework I've been using to focus my practice. Basically I read a book and found that its ideas about business are applicable to Melee.

yeah make a guide about that, like you said

would be an interesting read

 

[Deleted member]

reading just the link already gives me a pretty good general idea of how to practice melee

it feels like I already sorta do the 'lean' method whenever I do play BUT I do it in a highly lazy manner

 

[Scar]

http://leanmelee.wordpress.com/
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=318810

First blog post is up, but it's more of an intro/about than first steps. Does it make sense? I'd love for help in this thread regarding how to refine my ideas, and basically how to better communicate. If there's anything that's confusing let me know.

 

[Keblerelf]

Finally...

 

[Nakamaru]

Looking forward to it.

 

[Scar]

Second post should be up in the next few hours -- no requests?

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

I got one.

Within the feedback loop, how do I measure whether I'm playing "correctly"?
We've discussed before that I get complacent when I begin to win. Hence, why I don't really pull large wins on people regardless of skill level.

Within seeking improvement, what criterion determines whether or not I am improving.

 

[ZoSo]

Really interested to hear what you have to say about this, Bobby.

 

[Violence]

Indeed, I think that people have the hardest time with the "measure" part of this equation. It's not always easy to know when you hit whether it was because your idea was correct, or if your opponent's idea was wrong, right?

 

[Divinokage]

Hm.. if the opponent's idea was wrong then you should immediately be able to punish him. I think you should have a general gameplan of what to do depending on the match-up and the player you are facing.

 

[Violence]

Kage, you're already an experienced player.

But whenever you hit someone with a retreating fair, was your timing good, or was their timing and approach bad? Should you use it more? Or is it not good to just throw it out? These are the kinds of questions I sometimes have difficulty answering.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, you're already an experienced player.

But whenever you hit someone with a retreating fair, was your timing good, or was their timing and approach bad? Should you use it more? Or is it not good to just throw it out? These are the kinds of questions I sometimes have difficulty answering.

Well for me, it all depends in what position I'm in and what position the other is. If he is Fox, then I know from a certain range all he can really do is either laser or try to approach with an aerial from either a short hop or full hop. Based on that I can already formulate a plan how to counter him.

I also know that whiffing any move especially with Ganon will cause me to get punished since there's so much lag in between moves usually and it gives time for the other to enter the zone I don't want them to be in, which is directly on me.

So with that said, I mean at some point in time he will need to start approaching because they obviously do not want to get hit by Ganon's attacks nor find themselves in a position close to the ledge so.. I always visualize the space in between me and him and what he can possibly do and try to box him in to limit their options and give myself the best possible punishes. Generally, if I want to commit to an aerial, the requirements generally for me is they aren't close to me.. I space it on shield to bait another move right after or.. I use an aerial to counter-attack their already thrown aerials. Other than that, it's pretty risky to do it since it allows them to get closer to you if you miss.

So.. I can say this because I have trained many situations that happened to me for years, like for example I know I can upair a fullhop aerial if it happens, I know I can backjump Fair a Fox Nair.. I know I can like full jump Dair over someone that tries to aerial my face. All that I learned by simply trial and error a million times. I would pay attention to the situations that happens to me. If the same thing happened a bunch of times then I tried to experiment with all moves to see how it would work. This all just for defensive purposes basically. =)

 

[Scar]

Just posted a pretty big update:
http://leanmelee.wordpress.com/

Tafokints that's a sick question, I think I'll post about it and other questions on the blog and respond here too. I'm gonna take a nap now lol but soon.

 

[Nakamaru]

Scar, i've actually been working on my own writings for improving gameplay. Mind if i send it to you? Maybe we can collaborate on the topic if you like what i've written so far.

 

[Hax]

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/36b6dv/

 

[Scar]

lol whatever aziz

ain't no product here

yeah naka plz send whatever over

 

[GOTM]

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/36b6dv/

lmfao. the pic was pretty funny

scar good **** on that post though.

 

[Dan -Zodiac-]

didnt the rock get back into wrestling to just advertise his movies?
hmmmm


also, im really loving this stuff scar. i have been aware of my own "focus" fluctuations for quite a long time but never came up with any organized system or viable methods to fixing the problem. another question i have though: is there a good way to consistently remember and implement things you learn (either while playing, watching, or reading on the boards). For me being at such a low level, i always have so many things to do better that i can barely remember specific ones at the right times.

 

[Scar]

dan i'm going to do a post about that too, your question has to do with what i see as an extremely fundamental part of competitive smash

basically there's a hierarchy of support in improvement, from base level to high level it goes like this:

tech, and focus (base)
strategy, whcih is supported by what tech you can perform and how focused / aware you are
adaptation and creativity, which is supported by what strategy you have on lock, which is supported by tech and focus

the problem you're talking about is at the strategy level. but to refine your question, is the problem that you don't have the tech? that you aren't thinking enough to remember it? most likely it's that it's not at the forefront of your overall gameplan, so you remember it after the fact. but a better question will get a better answer.

so IMO if there's a TON of things that you need to start doing that you haven't, take a look at vids and see which are the biggest pain points, which can deliver the most value. then work on implementing those.

but, if it's as simple as "i jump from the ledge way too much and should waveland on", it would probably suffice to set up some OKRs for about 10 matches where you focus on that and some other small things

Objective: Implement new cool stuff
KR1: Jump from ledge less than 25% of the time
KR2: whatever else you want to start doing

 

[Dan -Zodiac-]

dan i'm going to do a post about that too

thats what i was looking for lol, just wanted to make sure it would be a topic you will address, since obv its too broad for a quick answer. but i will def prioritize implementing things that will deliver the most value. tbh i still don't know how much of my problem will exist after using OKRs.

 

[Scar]

one thing to remember though is that lean is a framework. it doesn't answer your questions, it helps you ask the right questions, and as you come up with some possible answers, it helps decide which ones work and which don't. so, be prepared to put in some work on your end to come up with a plan that's specific to you.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Scar, when did your falcon get so good? I mean you were always legit, but after not playing for god knows how long, somehow you went from being a former top falcon to combining the best elements from hax and s2j while putting that IKM flare... The world may never be the same

 

[Windrose]

I don't see much s2j in scar's style.

Also, I finally understand what LEAN melee is, and it is hard. Scar's providing the steps to fundamentally break down your melee problems and set you up in the right and efficient way to build a better overall melee game play. But the steps are hard, and require a lot of work. I have made some notes off of his lean melee blog and also the book itself.

One does not simply play lean melee.

 

[Deleted member]

scar definitely took some parts from me hella GHEY getting ***** by ur own ****

he ***** me good though =/

 

[Scar]

Scar, when did your falcon get so good? I mean you were always legit, but after not playing for god knows how long, somehow you went from being a former top falcon to combining the best elements from hax and s2j while putting that IKM flare... The world may never be the same

haha thanks sveet, i don't know if i'm that good yet, though. we'll see if i keep winning tournaments (there should be one this weekend). i'm still practicing and working on ironing out my weaknesses, and the lean framework has really opened a lot of doors that seemed to be closed for me. now that i can really start to make progress and improve again, i don't see an endpoint any time soon.

 

[Nakamaru]

Scar, have you gotten a chance to read what i sent you?

 

[Scar]

Yeah Naka, I read the PM, and I think it's extremely important to talk about mindset and Sirlin's ideas (win with whatever can be done in the game and is legal). This is something I'd like to address at some point in the future after I've adequately explained what Lean is and how to use it.

For some people this will be a large problem they'll have to conquer. For others it's probably not very important information. Lean will help diagnose it, and if it's in fact a problem, then your article will help give players direction on how to make steps towards improving.

 

[Walt]

Just kinda skimming so I have no idea if people are listing stuff they want to stop doing/start doing but I'm gonna do that:

Stop:
-Shielding 80% of the time if I'm scared after a tech and the opponent is near me
-In place nairs when I only have about 25% of battlefield. I panic on BF more than any other stage for some reason
-Trying to get two hit nair off an successful side-B when I know they'll DI it up and only get the first one
-Rolling from the edge too early when Marth can side-B another time for a slightly longer stall
-Less rolling in when I'm cornered by Falco

Start:
-More knees at neutral
-Confident in my edge canceling and not doing ****** edgecancel>buffered roll or edgecancel>airdodge from trying to L-cancel
-Punishing Marth off a grab
-Grab techchasing, I stopped doing this even though I can do it off reaction pretty well
-Fresh Knee>Grab, every time I've done this it has worked.
-Start overshooting stomps again, I took it outta my game a while ago

 

[Citizen Snips]

Haven't read anything previous, but just wanted to say: Scar, you used to be my favorite Falcon back in 2010, but then you fell to other more efficient Falcons.

After this **** you pulled at The Deep, though? Good to have you back at the top.

 

[S l o X]

Walt, in place of where you would shield when someone is directly in front of you or will be very soon, try grabbing or jabbing (and if the first or second one hit, gentlemen).

I've been doing it lately and it really helps / throws people off. Especially since I shield WAY too much and people have started to catch up. (Marths who approach with grab / mix up d-tilt used to **** me)

 

[McNinja]

Puff match-up. What key things should I know?

 

[Windrose]

Puff match-up. What key things should I know?

d-throw --> up air at low percents (don't knee or u might get rested especially at 0%)

d-throw --> knee to try to kill when she's above ~50% (stage dependent).

Don't try to dd grab her too much as she will crouch to dodge the grab and try to rest you.

Don't get caught by up tilt, and if you do, DI away or you will probably get rested.

Don't DI her d-throw in towards her or else she can rest you (source: s2j)

Back airs are good against her, up airs as well.

Stomp her if she's try to crouch to bait your grabs.

use your speed, run around the stage, jiggly puff is slow.

Don't run into her wall of bairs.


that's all that comes to mind atm.

 

[Scar]

I think Puff is a really big challenge to your spacing. A lot of puff's high-reward moves like pound are really risky for her, so staying out of range but close enough to punish is really important. I still struggle with Puff because she can't be punished as hard as other characters. In the end I'm learning that getting a lot of hits becomes more important than getting a sick combo, or killing with dthrow knee.

 

[JonnyW]

Dont F-smash jiggs shield! Good jiggs can rest you out of that.

 

[McNinja]

It seems like these matches will usually take awhile then if you play them right?

 

[Mizar]

vs Jiggs, bair camp and stomp spam for a knee?

 

[Deleted member]

despite barely having much practice i love falcon puff matchup

honestly its just a testament to your spacing, space like a n00b and eat back airs


back air spam from falcon is pretty hilarious but idk if its the greatest tool around, its something i do randomly for like 15 seconds vs puffs then i stop

about stomping jiggs duck, good jiggs have good enuf reaction speed that they will simply shield ur stomp, i recommend doing a (perfect) knee --> conditioned shield grab if they block it

my spacing style in general seems to work well vs jiggs idk, dash dance camping/straight running away doesnt seem that good at all

 

[Wenbobular]

I've always felt the Jiggs matchup was more about brawling and using Falcon's super fast speed and spidery legs to try to get under Jiggs and Uair
Also approaching fast Uair is pretty sick because Jiggs usually spend a good amount of time floating kinda high

Also if a Jiggs is ducking then she isn't in the air, what exactly is she going to do from a crouch that's so scary <.<

 

[JonnyW]

I wanna see S2J vs Hungrybox