Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[JonnyW]

Guys....this Vish falcon is really fast....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG8rYRWOz9c&feature=related

Also, why is he able to recover so well? Is he SDI'ing everything that falco unleasehs so he can tech at those ridiculouspercents? or is the falco just not edge guarding well?

Here are a few moments i'm talking about in the match:

1)can't really tell here cuz pkmn stadium is blocking
2) Same here
3) Here?
4) Here?

I'm not really usre upon rewatching.

Vish is one of the most underrated falcons.

 

[TerryJ]

I posted this in another thread, not realizing it was the wrong thread to do that, so I'll just quote my post.

So I'm having a bit of trouble with Peach and am looking for advice. What are some of the best ways to approach Peach and in what situations? The Peach I play against is usually quite patient and like to spam DSmash, Turnips and DashAttack. And knowing me all I want to do IS HIT HER STUPID FACE. I have a bad habit of always wanting to initiate which I know is stupid as ****.

I've never been too good at my NAir but I've been working on it for the past few weeks so I feel it's one of my best openers that isn't grabbing. (DI N-Air Low -> FJ Dbl U-Air) A lot of the time I find that all I really want to do is KNEE, KNEE MORE KNEE and DAir. My friend knows this very well and can usually power shield most of my initial attacks (he doesn't normally PS anything). Because of this, I usually have to try and wait him out hoping I can get him to Whiff while I DD.

 

[Zhea]

YOU FOOL! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? YOU HAVE BROUGHT IT BACK AFTER 10'000 YEARS! IT WILL CONQUERED EARTH!

 

[knightpraetor]

dear falcons.. how do I do wenbo's combos. He always tells me to DI better when I DI in, then kills me instantly when I DI away

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You're not supposed to DI the knee away

 

[CaptainFabulous]

dear falcons.. how do I do wenbo's combos. He always tells me to DI better when I DI in, then kills me instantly when I DI away

I guess you would just have to react quicker to the knee and input surivival DI before they hit you?

 

[TerryJ]

YOU FOOL! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? YOU HAVE BROUGHT IT BACK AFTER 10'000 YEARS! IT WILL CONQUERED EARTH!

LET IT BE KNOWN, THAT I, TERRYJ HAS BY PROXY CONQUERED THE EARTH!

 

[knightpraetor]

can you really differentiate between the upair/nair and the knee before the knee hits? I can't usually do that unless I know my opponent and know what kinds of combos he knows and likes

 

[MeatIsMURDER]

can you really differentiate between the upair/nair and the knee before the knee hits? I can't usually do that unless I know my opponent and know what kinds of combos he knows and likes

definitely. The way I do it is hold away and "default" to combo DI; then I know if by a certain window if I still haven't gotten hit, then it's a knee (due to the longer startup). You can also typically tell by eyesight rather than timing, too. It's the same for vs marth--you default DI hard down and away but then react to a tipper. For me, the timing works out so that I hit the SDI frames, too, with the timing of my DI switch.

 

[knightpraetor]

wow, tipper is super slow so of course i switch my DI on that all the time..ubt i never really thought of falcon's knee as being particularly slow

 

[MeatIsMURDER]

you just go by the start up and positioning of falcon. if you focus you can tell if they're in a position to uair for combo or to knee for knockback.

 

[bertbusdriver]

uair hits as early as frame 6. knee hits as early as frame 14. It's slow by many standards.

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

they can choose to do the uair late tho... in which case ur di setup gets f'ed. hax does this late-ish uair alot

 

[SAUS]

they can choose to do the uair late tho... in which case ur di setup gets f'ed. hax does this late-ish uair alot

The late up-air is useful since it protects you from committing to a punishable attack - you can abort at any time until you start your attack. On top of that, if you hit as late as possible with the up-air, you have more time before your next hit needs to connect in order for it to combo. It also has the capacity to shield poke and works well with tech chasing.

Imo it is easy to see the knee coming - not by timing but by the animation of captain falcon. My problem right now with DI vs falcon is when I get kneed at %50 and survival DI it into ... another knee. So much sadness when I do that - gotta watch more things.

EDIT
Keep in mind that DI only has to be input by the time you are out of hit stun. You have more than just 14 frames to choose your DI correctly.

 

[gravy]

That di being chosen at the end of hitstun is definitely not right, hitstun doesn't even end until your arc is basically already through. DI needs to be chosen at the end of hitLAG, which are the frames in which both characters freeze upon a move connecting, and offer a much smaller window. These are the same frames which you can SDI during.

 

[SAUS]

That di being chosen at the end of hitstun is definitely not right, hitstun doesn't even end until your arc is basically already through. DI needs to be chosen at the end of hitLAG, which are the frames in which both characters freeze upon a move connecting, and offer a much smaller window. These are the same frames which you can SDI during.

Ya that's what I meant >.< I just used the wrong word. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[TheGoat]

I've been using upair out of shield lately, a great addition to falcon's mediocre oos options.

 

[SAUS]

I've been using upair out of shield lately, a great addition to falcon's mediocre oos options.

When do you use it?

 

[TheGoat]

When do you use it?

A few situations, I'll list what I can remember
1. both staring each other in shield
2. after a space animal shines you in front
3. generally when someone does an airial in front of you.

Cuz falcon's only other option in front is grab or nair, nair is kind of dumb.

 

[Aggromidget]

A few situations, I'll list what I can remember
1. both staring each other in shield
2. after a space animal shines you in front
3. generally when someone does an airial in front of you.

Cuz falcon's only other option in front is grab or nair, nair is kind of dumb.

*It's kinda dumb how good n-air is. Fixed it for you.
If you do u-air, they can run up grab when you land. They can't do that if you n-air, plus n-air also covers the space above him so he can't jump or he'll get caught.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Let's talk more about Falcon's OoS game. I thought Uair might be a good choice, but, as stated, it can get punished once finished. Nair seems like a good option. Any other ideas?

 

[dRevan64]

Falcon's OoS game

it sucks
don't be in shield
sometimes stomp
nair oos isn't really that good since you'll probably just get hit by something

 

[Zhea]

it sucks
don't be in shield
sometimes stomp
nair oos isn't really that good since you'll probably just get hit by something

Yeah it's terrible, it's only what S2J made his entire career on. But yeah we should just ignore it.

 

[dRevan64]

Yeah it's terrible, it's only what S2J made his entire career on. But yeah we should just ignore it.

I may have exaggerated a little bit but I still maintain that s2j is magic.

edit: also people forget that s2j rolls like all the damn time and falcon's roll isn't that good
it's still not a good oos game but johnny applies it really really really well

 

[Zhea]

I agree, S2J is magic. However, punishing stuff that hits falcon's shield is pretty important to several match ups, especially with Marth.

 

[dRevan64]

Sure but marth doesn't pressure in nearly the same way a spacie does, when you have an opportunity to oos punish a marth you really get something. More often than not with a spacie (which I feel is usually what people are asking for about OOS advice) if you're falcon and try to do a shffl'd aerial out of shield you're gonna get six blue lines or a foot in and around your face. Since you mentioned johnny I actually went back and watched some videos of his playing like westballz and zhu at ncr and it's amazing how often he went for unsafe stuff–and got hit. People get impressed when he lands that **** but he lands it because he is stubborn as hell about going for it. But his rolling went largely unpunished.
Marth is a totally different beast though, the minute marth does anything to your shield there's a good chance you can punish it, even a well spaced fair or dtilt gives you an opportunity if they're not perfect.

 

[Zhea]

Spacies are 2 out of a total of 8 top tier matchups. Mid tiers are also gaining relevancy in this day and age. It's worth discussing. Hell it's worth discussing even in the Spacie match up to punish some of the fraudelent shield pressure that goes around.

 

[dRevan64]

Really fraudulent pressure can usually be punished with a grab, that's almost universal. You are right though, I just think space animals when I hear shield pressure.

 

[Da Shuffla]

I was mainly talking about space animals, but I think all of the high tier matchups deserve a look. Well, not all, but definitely spacies/Marth/Sheik.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

Hey guys, I have a question. What are the best stages to take a falco to and avoid going to? Esp a falco that is technical and relies heavily on combo ability.

 

[gravy]

FD is definitely the worst, regardless of anyone else's opinion. Theres just no reasonable way to compete with the equity a single shine gains falco, unless perhaps you didn't drop a single tech chase or edgeguard.

Battle field is really strong if only for the reason that recovery is forced occasionally, PS is kind of similar. Dreamland is a strong stage for falcon in general. My favorite stage to take him to personally is FoD, but that's certainly personal choice. So here's an ordered list, and it's my personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt.
1.FoD 2.Dreamland 3.Battlefield 4.pokemon stadium 5. Yoshis 6. FD

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

He bans Battlefield and I would never go to FoD. I will try pkm and dreamland. Thankyou.

 

[Zhea]

If Falco is smart you will never get battle field. He will use one of his bans on it and one on dreamland. FD is out of the question. It's basically pick your poison. Get good on FoD or get good on Yoshi's. I feel like falcon's pick game is really under discussed. Like how strong his striking game is when both dreamland and FD are strong in the matchup(ala Marth Sheik).

 

[gravy]

People should just practice on FoD, that stage is amazing if you put time into it

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

I actually really like Yoshi's. However, I feel like Falco has a big advantage on that stage as welll as FD. I would say in order I would prefer Battlefield, Dreamland, and then Yoshi's. I haven't thought of PKM as a viable counterpick. Not sure why. Poor Falcon

 

[Zhea]

I mean FoD and Yoshi's are just such a staple of falcon matups they fo need to be practiced in both a Bo5 and Bo3 setting. Or you can be like hax and become so dominant on FD you gain BF back as your staple neutral.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

I could only wish. I played this particular falco player last night. He was on point and I was playing alright. He is just so technical and has such a great punish game. I was getting quite frustrated. I really need to be on point to beat him. I feel like FD is so bad compared to Yoshi's. At least on Yoshi's I can get quick kills. It feels like if I don't play perfect on FD then I'm doomed.

 

[gravy]

Yah I agree. FD is horrible. Just give up your old prejudices and learn to stomp him out on fountain, else suffer the consequences of him having three counterpick stages to choose from.

 

[Zhea]

I was joking about FD. Though it is an interesting point regarding top players and how there gap in skill warps their options, at least from a striking perspective. Also Noobking, Wish I had gotten to play you at EVO. I was that fraud Falcon from the Hotel room the day before.

 

[gravy]

Doesn't matter what level you reach IMO, falcon loses to spacies the worst on FD.