Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

guestuser

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A few questions

When you're recovering low and your opponent is edgeguarding you and you wall jump tech, should you bair/up-b them immediately, up-b high and try to make it back on the stage, go low and up-b and try for the sweetspot or just reverse falcon punch for cool points? Should you keep mixing it up or is there a safest option out of those? Does it depend a lot on character/stage/damage? I usually play against falcon/game & watch/ICs on yoshi's story if that helps.

When ledgehopping aerials is it better to let go of the edge using control stick back, c-stick back or can you use control stick down if you're quick enough (this is usually what I use and I have trouble getting much height/distance, especially on nairs)?

When shuffling nairs when do you fastfall so that both legs fully extend? When the first kick is fully out or as soon as the second kick starts to come out? At the peak of your jump regardless of what your legs are doing?

Is there a good way to practice pivot -> edgehog? I have trouble with simpler ATs but this looks so nice that I'd really like to try to get the hang of it. Is pivoting attacks useful to Falcon? I don't think I see it in videos ever.

Thanks for the help.
 

JesiahTEG

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Scar I realized something very important the other day. I was talking to Spam on AIM and hes telling me that Falcon beats Marth with DD camping and I'm like..."Yeah, normally I run past Falcon and Fsmash or Dtilt with Marth." And he's like "Yeah but that doesn't work on a good Falcon." And I'm trying to figure out why and all of a sudden I realize...

Falcon runs faster than Marth. LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Idk why I found it so funny but I thought I'd come "Spam" your thread with it. Get it...Spam...Teh Spamerer? LMAO
 

Da Shuffla

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Lol. Good stuff, Cactuar. Yeah, I WD and shield with the same button, but I shield with R when I KNOW that I wil shieldgrab. Guess I should just use R b/c there is NO WAY that I am changing my WD button.

Is pivoting with Falcon necessary? Or, is it just not worth the practice?
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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Sometimes when I dair someone lying on the ground after a missed tech they don't pop up, and instead stay there on the ground. What is going on here?
FINALLY, Scar has come back to Smashboards.

It depends heavily on the timing. It's actually really difficult to reliably pop characters up with dair if they're lying on the ground, they need to be completely at rest, if they're still popping up and down from the initial impact you'll just slam them back down.

Magus can prob answer better.
 
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^^Also they could be ASDI'ing down (holding down on the control stick or c-stick), that way they will just bounce off the ground at low to mid-high percentages
(but if it's after a missed tech it's prolly what scar is talking about, they pop up for a short amount of time after a missed tech so when you dair them they just hit back into the ground
I never really got the timing for having them pop up, so I usually don't Dair missed techs, I knee or boost instead (or chase their get-up from there, depending on wether or not I knew/thought they where going to miss the tech))

VV I dont feel like making a new post so ill just edit this one: sometimes when I let go of the ledge with the c-stick I'll do a bair. Anyone know why?
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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Is there any pattern i'm missing? I barely read any moves and the patterns i've mentioned are really vague and barely work unless i'm playing against a low skill player :/
This is more or less the end of the discussion. High and top level players will very frequently surprise you with their teching patterns, they really don't follow anything. Low level players can be destroyed by abusing their favorite techs over and over.

Tech chasing isn't really my thing though. I'm sure Jiano would have a better answer for you.

When you're recovering low and your opponent is edgeguarding you and you wall jump tech, should you bair/up-b them immediately, up-b high and try to make it back on the stage, go low and up-b and try for the sweetspot or just reverse falcon punch for cool points? Should you keep mixing it up or is there a safest option out of those? Does it depend a lot on character/stage/damage? I usually play against falcon/game & watch/ICs on yoshi's story if that helps.
I usually just walljump tech and then upB immediately. 9 times out of 10 you get the grab and the yes. If you're sure something else will work then sure, go for it, but I'm not quite that aware of what's going to work. On Yoshi's I would just walljump forever. lol.

When ledgehopping aerials is it better to let go of the edge using control stick back, c-stick back or can you use control stick down if you're quick enough (this is usually what I use and I have trouble getting much height/distance, especially on nairs)?
Whichever you choose, as time goes on you'll become used to it enough that it will work. I don't have much else to say about it other than I chose to use c-stick back and I hate it. You should probably not pick that one.

When shuffling nairs when do you fastfall so that both legs fully extend? When the first kick is fully out or as soon as the second kick starts to come out? At the peak of your jump regardless of what your legs are doing?
As time goes on and you get way better with CF you'll unederstand that there are different situations where each of these will work best, but as a general rule you really want to hit with the second kick. So yes, make sure that both kicks come out before you l-cancel, whether you fastfall after the second kick comes out or right before is up to you.

Is there a good way to practice pivot -> edgehog? I have trouble with simpler ATs but this looks so nice that I'd really like to try to get the hang of it. Is pivoting attacks useful to Falcon? I don't think I see it in videos ever.
Pivoting nairs is very useful but pivot edgehog is extremely difficult and I don't know anyone who can do it consistently.

yawmmm, bob, when will you ever reach cactuar's level? that is my question. answer truthfully.
That question can not be answered with a measurement of time but rest assured I will be there soon.

Is pivoting with Falcon necessary? Or, is it just not worth the practice?
Same as before, pivoting nairs is awesome, that's the only pivot technique I've ever practiced. I've seen pivot f-tilt be useful for other characters but I think shffl bair would be better in almost every situation anyways.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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how do i beat fox with c.falc?
It's easier than beating Falco...
Easier then beating falco? I thought it was the opposite. Falco's recovery is soo easy to gimp (compared to fox's)
This is true, but...
Despite Falco's bad recovery, Falco is much better at controlling Falcon than Fox is.
Exactly. Also,
Falco is just really good at controlling enemies, and pressuring them. Falcon being the prime example.
Also true.

Fox's recovery can be gimped with the same weak knee>uair tricks, but the key to both matches is grabbing, and it's far easier to get grabs vs Fox than it is vs Falco. Which is depressing, because it's extremely difficult to grab Fox.

As I've said in the past, vs low to mid level Foxes, dair out of shield is a beautiful incredible tactic. Do not try to shieldgrab aerials b/c he will shine you (Advanced Smash 101). Don't even get used to doing it b/c bad Foxes miss most of the time. If you can react to a missed shine and THEN shieldgrab, then great, but otherwise just hold your shield and jump and dair out of it.

Dair out of shield is incredible because after Fox nair>shine>wd's, you can simply guess which way he's going to WD, jump out of shield after the shine, and dair. It'll hit A LOT. If you can land lots of dairs vs Fox you will land lots of knees, and if you ever choke on dair>knee, you'll get enough dairs vs a fastfaller to never mess up ever again.

Be mindful of shine, of course the more you are shinespiked the more experience you have against it. I am almost never shinespiked anymore and I used to get gimped by fthrow shine 9 times out of 10. Don't get too frustrated, understand that it IS beatable, and just keep trying. DJ straight up instead of in towards the stage and it'll help a lot. Fox has to predict where you're going to be to SS you, so don't be there.

Nair tons when nothing is happening, it has more range than almost all of Fox's moves so you can outprioritize him every time if your spacing is perfect, which it probably isn't which is why you have Fox trouble. But nair works if you just spam it. After every nair below 50% you should probably try to grab, and afterwards try to follow techs. If it's a low DI nair, they'll usually miss the tech and knee or stomp>knee will take the stock.

Other than that, make sure you DI usmash, please don't die under 120% on most stages, don't get shinespiked, don't jump out of shield... keep on truckin.
 

Magus420

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Falcon has a tall grab. Just shieldgrab Falco when he shines your shield. Shield A/SDI the shine away so if they try to multishine they will whiff since Falco's shine has **** for range, and also if you mess up you'll DI the shine away. Technically they could shine grab you to beat it, but I think that's definitely a risk worth taking since if they try just about anything else they get grabbed and your grabs are worth far more than his are.
 

musashi

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Oh, I thought you were amazing at techchasing cause in your videos i've seen you use it pretty often...
I really need help with that, it's like that is the only way to beat spacies I can think of :/
It's like to see who combos who first to death, and without the techchases I have the disadvantage ><
If anyone knows any pattern or tips that would help me greatful, thanks.
 

Ayaz18

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scar, iv been getting into my groove again in melee (Uair Nair Bair SHFFL's are all good now) but my bro has taken up Falco............ he can't pillar me as well I can him, but im having a LOT of trouble grabbing him, and also speeding up my grabs. Mainly why I can't grab him is because of A) lazors -___- and B) wave dashing. if I get one grab on him i can pretty much tech chase him till like 70%, then just Tapion punch him.

so how can I speed up my grab game? I have been dash dancing to wavedashing recently which is kinda effective, but what do you do??!
 

JFox

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If he isn't good at pillaring yet, just abuse shield grabs. Once he starts punishing that, it gets much harder. You will have to combo into a lot of grabs, or knock him down, and tech chase to get a grab.
 

CanISmash

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Falcon has a tall grab. Just shieldgrab Falco when he shines your shield. Shield A/SDI the shine away so if they try to multishine they will whiff since Falco's shine has **** for range, and also if you mess up you'll DI the shine away.
magus you're like the all knowing smash mother goose.....

can you explain this?? di'ing in shield wouldn't that just move your shield around and change it's position?
 

Magus420

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You can ASDI and SDI when you shield something just like you would when getting hit. For example, shield ASDI is what makes the lightshield edgehog on Marth work. By holding towards the edge while shielding, at the end of the shield hitlag you ASDI over the edge which makes you slip off and fall. A good thing to use it for is to shield DI towards someone so you stay close enough to shieldgrab a move that would otherwise push you too far away.
 

Iceman12

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Oh, I thought you were amazing at techchasing cause in your videos i've seen you use it pretty often...
I really need help with that, it's like that is the only way to beat spacies I can think of :/
It's like to see who combos who first to death, and without the techchases I have the disadvantage ><
If anyone knows any pattern or tips that would help me greatful, thanks.
The general rule of tech chasing is: whatever way they didn't go last time, they're going next time (stolen from somewhere on the boards del smash). Everyone is different though, you will have to predict or have excelent reaction time to tech chase the space animals. In Falcon ditto's though, you can just react because his techroll is so **** slow.

A wierd thing I've noticed watching my own matches as well as others, if spacies di behind you on uthrow, they usually techroll in front of you, then you can do what you wish with them. Regrab and tech-chase more, knee, options are almost limitless to you at that point.

edit: Magus is like amazing, you learn something new every day. Im totally incorporating shield di into my game more ;p.
 

Ayaz18

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The doctor, i freggin hate him his pills do 7% a piece, have ridiculous priority, and are wayyyy to spamable and his back throw OOOHHH his back thow kills at like what 70%? Uair SHFFL's way too easily, and same with Bair, so what do I do Scar?
 

Omni_Smash

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Well, I have basically ZERO experience with captain falcon, and I'm taking the ability to be a blank slate as a good thing so I'd like to get in with this char before I pick up the noobish bad habits that I had to work out of my Ganondorf and Mario.

My question is "What should I do to get started?" I've read some of the guides and whatnot but I'd really like an opinion on what I should start practicing first, there seems to be so much stuff that Falcon can do that I find it a little overwhelming.
 
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Don't know if this has been posted before, but against Fox, what's the best way to recover besides not underneath the stage?
 

Iceman12

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The doctor, i freggin hate him his pills do 7% a piece, have ridiculous priority, and are wayyyy to spamable and his back throw OOOHHH his back thow kills at like what 70%? Uair SHFFL's way too easily, and same with Bair, so what do I do Scar?
Spam nair's a lot, doc has practically zero range. Nairs will kill his pills and hit him if he comes aprroaching you after them(which he will, most docs do that). If his bthrow is killing you at 70, you're either di'ing away from the throw when you should be di'ing towards him, or not di-ing at all, it shouldnt kill until high percentages, stage dependent of course.
 

calmchaos

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Ok, I have to ask... do you have any advice vs. DK?
I know it might sound dumb... but his Up-b destroys me and his edge guards are just too much...
As soon as I'm off the stage vs DK, that's my stock... I try to fight for the middle of the stage, but the Up-b sometimes throws me off. And back throw...

I try to space nair to grabs, but I don't really know what to do against him. I don't know what I should be looking for...
He seems like he falls too fast...

IDK... I'm lost on this matchup I would appreciate any help!
Thanks!
 
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@ Omni Smash: Shuffling. Practice this relentlessly, until you can shuffle any aerial, at any time. Then, practice DDing and WDing. Watch plenty of vids, too.
 
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@scar and the other on matchups: Yhea grabbing falco is really hard. I see your point(s). Falco also combos falcon slightly better then fox does.
It's just that I keep getting destroyed by fox's shinespike:ing/edgeguarding, i need to work on my ledge sweetspotting and **** >.>

Spam nair's a lot, doc has practically zero range. Nairs will kill his pills and hit him if he comes aprroaching you after them(which he will, most docs do that). If his bthrow is killing you at 70, you're either di'ing away from the throw when you should be di'ing towards him, or not di-ing at all, it shouldnt kill until high percentages, stage dependent of course.
Actually you should DI up
since the bthrow sends you away DI'ing away or towards will not have any effect at all, since that's along the same line as the original trajectory
 
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^^ Awesome :)

1. Advice/tips/anything about edgeguarding with falcon would be cool
(As for which chars to edgeguard: all the top/high tiers basically :p)

2. IS THERE a reliable, inescapeable throw->knee combo at a reasonably low ko percentage on samus? (that can't be DI'd)

3. Are there any non neutral stages that you like and/or are particuarly good for falcon?

4. What do you prefer doing on floaties/semi floaties out of raptor boosts? There are so many options, just wondering what you prefer doing :)
 
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