Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[ChivalRuse]

ICs are a reasonable tournament character (they only have one horrible matchup and a few questionable ones), and they're lower on the tier list than Falcon ...

 

[Roneblaster]

Nope.

10nottrues.

also10itsageneralizationandshouldntbetakenascanon.

 

[Deleted member]

my 2ndary is falco, and I've gotta say that once you learn how to shield pressure well, learn basic spacing, and do combo loops on plats with shine, up-tilt, d-air, repeat he's basically a huge joke and pretty dam easy. He's not ridiculously hard to be consistent with like fox and he has the tools to protect himself and **** his opponent. My Falco might as well be better than my falcon simply because he is way easier

His recovery isn't even bad, lots of room for tricks

but i'll never use falco in a serious tourney, falcon is rewarding and its fun to **** biches and that's why i love playing him. Nothing you'll do except if you play Fox at Dark's level will feel as satisfying as getting a quadruple knee tech chase

As for tournament viability, i think falcon barely passes viable level. Everybody beneath him except for a few matchups can literally be n-aired to death if you space carefully. Falcon has a great n-air game vs Fox, Shiek has a horrid approach, Marth gets wombo comboed if he slips up

Falcon's worst matchup (one of his easiest at n00000b levels) is easily falco. Falco is the real legit test for Falcon and you have almost 0 room for error and gotta **** ur opponents freaking hard each time you get a grab.

A solution I've found while facing zhu is to run like a bich and platform camp if he whittles down your shield a lot until it regrows before trying to make something happen again

But even that matchup is not impossible although you'll find yourself barely winning sometimes vs worse players

One of Falcon's real + sides imo is that he's not a particularly technical character like fox and the tech skill you pretty much need is basically being able to do what you want to do. Outside of a few mango matches vs armada, i've never seen a fox NOT mess up tech skill in any video i've seen.

I think falcon's viable, and i only see him improving, although he will probably never rise in the tier list. Every falcon I've played at pound 5 *****, and the top falcons are still works in progress

so don't be surprised when hax takes top 3 in some national in the future, he's still 16 and is pretty much gunna become the new isai

 

[ChivalRuse]

You're saying nope to which of my statements, Christopher Curry?

 

[Windrose]

It's pretty common for top level players to concentrate on one character in tournament ... I don't know why you think this is weird <_<

Falcon is a character that requires dedication in tournament to get anywhere because everyone knows how to play against him (well, everyone in the US anyways)
Unless you're Mango I guess ...

I tried looking up some of your videos on youtube but I can only find videos of you playing fox.

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ Type in "Wenbo MAD" on YouTube. He went all Falcon that tournament and placed 5th .

 

[JPOBS]

ics have the advantage that all characters below falcon have: no one plays them, so no one knows how to play against them.

they can skate by just because people have no idea wtf to do. Falcon doesn't have that luxury. He sucks AND people know how to beat him.

 

[ChivalRuse]

How do people not know how to fight ICs? Midwest has Trail and Peef, WC has Fly, Azn Lep, Choknater and Boback, South has UberIce and Wobbles, MD/VA has Chu and Me, Tristate has Nintendude, New England has Kyu Puff.

And ICs are still a novelty? Really now?

(I guess in your defense, Canada doesn't have any ICs)

 

[KirbyKaze]

ewan mcdonald is the best part of episode 1

agreed

good Ice Climbers are rare as hell; trail never goes to anything and PEEF, much as i love him, isn't good, etc. Ics aren't complete trash but they're definitely an uncommon character.

edit:

with wobbling, Ics are definitely in the same tier as falcon/peach. without it, i'm not sure.

 

[Roneblaster]

trail and peef are terrible examples.

peef isn't a legitmate threat to win any tourney he enters and trail is so mother ****ing old school, he doesnt even do atleast half of the IC metagame anymore.

also you made my point for me joe. you listed like 2 ic's per region. how many falco/falcon/fox players can you list per region?

 

[ETWIST51294]

Damn, what about Fly, Chu, Wobbles, Sidefx, Nintendude, and Uberice? I don't get why Trail and Peef of all players were the ones brought up in that post.

edit: opps, misread the posts. sorry.

 

[Windrose]

I thought wobbling made ICs overpowered. Why isn't it allowed at most tournaments if it only puts ICs to the level at about peach?

 

[ETWIST51294]

Because it's gay.

 

[KirbyKaze]

re-reading the first two pages or so

my god how times have changed

you guys thought my character beat yours like 80-20 or some **** back then LOL

 

[ETWIST51294]

It stil iz liek that wtf *** r u talkign abuot?????/?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Two ICs players per region is still enough to warrant a reasonable amount of experience. I guess Midwest might be an exception, though, due to player inactivity or whatever.

 

[Roneblaster]

...............................


come on joe. 2 per region is....no joe.

no.

 

[TemPesT-]

especially in midwests case LOL

oh ya we'll drive 8 hours to play one of the 2 ice climber players in the region

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Did someone say my name?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I already said MW was an exception.

Seriously, though, WC has at least 4 ICs players. Lol.

And EC is riddled with them, I believe.

 

[Roneblaster]

if its less than 4 per state then it is a legit reason to say "lack of MU experience johns"

even if every state had 4 ic players, every state would still have 800 spacie/falcon players and the MU would still be incredibly less familiar and still john-worthy-ish,

 

[Palpi]

I disagree with chival ruse

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fine, fine. So maybe you guys don't have much matchup experience. But watch videos, for goodness' sake. It's not a hard matchup to figure out.

 

[Roneblaster]

thats just not true.

IC's are a different match up than anything else.

i'm not complaining about the MU i'm just agreeing with what jpobs said.

 

[JPOBS]

watching videos doesn't even come close to giving significant matchup knowledge to win a fight vs a good opponent. watching all the vids in the world won't help you hit that l-cancel on their shield.

Like, you just can't compare watching vids to having actual experience.

 

[Windrose]

So about Falcon vs ICs... My friend plays ICs and I get owned every time I get grabbed (not even wobbling). There are so many tricks that he knows that baits me into getting grabbed.

My question: is there a way to get out of that stupid, what seems to be, infinite regrab by ICs where they throw you -->dair-->regrab?

 

[Roneblaster]

you can smash di out i think, idk which direction to sdi though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't think SDI is necessary (though it definitely helps). DI down + away and buffer roll. But try to avoid west coasting it by the edge.

JPOBS: You can simulate l-cancelling on their shields in training mode. Put on starman against a non-moving human ICs.

 

[Palpi]

I tomahawk shine against IC for some reason..

 

[JPOBS]

yea i know about the starman. l cancelling was just the first thing to pop to my head. other examples include experience on the timing of sdi'ing the dair regrab BS and the variety of other tricksies

 

[ChivalRuse]

Probably the most legitimate flowchart ever for how to kill ICs:

1. Camp them. Watch out for uairs, jump over ice blocks, don't run into blizzards.
2. Separate them.
3. Isolate and **** Popo.
4. Profit.

 

[Windrose]

Probably the most legitimate flowchart ever for how to kill ICs:

1. Camp them. Watch out for uairs, jump over ice blocks, don't run into blizzards.
2. Separate them.
3. Isolate and **** Popo.
4. Profit.

Where is the ???? in your flow chart...

On a more serious note, is it best to use spaced knees for approaching ICs, I heard it somewhere over youtube i think it was on HMW's channel...

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's good from certain ranges (in which case you want to space it on their shields to wear down their shields, shield stab Nana, etc.). You want to do it from about the range that you could f-smash them from. Any farther and you risk getting intercepted. Any closer and you don't have room for the wind up.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think SDI is necessary (though it definitely helps). DI down + away and buffer roll. But try to avoid west coasting it by the edge.

JPOBS: You can simulate l-cancelling on their shields in training mode. Put on starman against a non-moving human ICs.

really? never knew i could escape that easily

i usually go nuts to try to break out and half the time it works

 

[Aussierob123]

I thought you had to DI inwards because DI'ing down and away props you up straight infront of them?

Or I'm probably massively wrong loool we only have like 2 IC's mains in Australia anyway. And australia sucks at smash.

 

[Strong Badam]

if its less than 4 per state then it is a legit reason to say "lack of MU experience johns"

legit reason to say johns

no johns .

 

[ChivalRuse]

really? never knew i could escape that easily

i usually go nuts to try to break out and half the time it works

Oh, whoops. I was referring to Fox escape DI. I'm dumb.

Yeah. Falcon has a few options. His best ones are to SDI in then jump/roll out. He can also SDI up-ish and jump out.

I believe you can SDI more consistently if you roll the c-stick/control stick back in forth within the general quadrant of where you want to go.

 

[GooeyBanana]

Pretty sure my new Ice Climbers strategy is to just run away until they get bored and **** up. That, or baiting them into doing some stupid double jump aerial and then just uair'ing them to oblivion. But mainly the running away part. I didn't realize just how broken that is, but like A LOT of people do not have the patience to deal with that xD

Good news from Gooey: Learning dat Marf matchup. Crouch cancelling those silly *** dash -> dash cancel dtilt approaches into grab is VERY satisfying...really sucks when they get a tipper on it or they know you're going to do that and wavedash utilt instead though =/...

Bad news from Gooey: I'm *** at the Sheik matchup. I don't know how I squeeze out wins sometime. That utilt is so fast, and I apparently love DI'ing jabs/ftilts in. I'm sure all Falcon mains that just read this cringed because they know just how bad it is to do that. They're just so hard to react to quick enough to DI >_< Still need some work in this MU...

Going to SMYM this weekend. Wish me luck Falcon brothers ;P

 

[ChivalRuse]

You know what is probably more satisfying than CCing running d-tilts, Gooey?

SHFFLing a stomp on that ****!

 

[Faithkeeper]

Going to SMYM this weekend. Wish me luck Falcon brothers ;P

Me too, see you there.