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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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RDK

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@ Slick:

Of course Fox is going to do better against M2 most of the time, but I don't see why you would play M2 against a proficient Fox. That's like choosing Dan Hibiki to go up against a good Ryu.


Part of being a good player is knowing your matchups. That's why we have counterpicks and multiple matches in competitive play.
 

arrowhead

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Another thing is, more competitive does not necessarily mean more fun. I have more fun playing Brawl, personally. I like the characters better, and I think there are less broken ones. Melee was too much about falco/fox/marth/shiek. I played falco in Melee a lot. In Brawl I play Mr. Game and Watch, Peach, Ike and often other characters too, and have more fun playing them. In fact, I think there is more potential in Brawl to be pretty great with nearly every character, whereas in Melee I thought that was harder to do.
god tier: snake
top tier: metaknight
not tournament viable: everyone else

at least in melee you could do well with mid tier and up
 

Jack Kieser

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god tier: snake
top tier: metaknight
not tournament viable: everyone else

at least in melee you could do well with mid tier and up
You know, I really don't trust that argument at all. Held a 35-man tournament on May 24th that had one of Texas' best Snakes, T-Rex, and he came in 4th. Top 3? Ice Climbers, Dedede, Wolf, in that order (1,2,3). In fact, the Loser's Bracket semi-finals had T-Rex v. kirbykid, and kirbykid almost had it (I wish I had all of the matches recorded; oh, wait! I do have one.). So, yeah.
 

spacemanspiff

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Messages
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to arrowhead: lol agreed.

i love how he says that he hates how Melee was too much about 4 characters out of 25 and that brawl has more potential for greatness when 2 out of 35 characters own up every tourney out there... people's logic never ceases to amaze me

to Jack:
that's taking ONE tourney's results and trying to use it to refute the fact that Meta and Snake have owned every other tourney out there (barring the odd one). its like saying Pichu's better than Fox cuz you beat one guy's fox with your pichu once or twice.. big picture man... big picture
 

bovineblitzkrieg

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Another thing is, more competitive does not necessarily mean more fun. I have more fun playing Brawl, personally. I like the characters better, and I think there are less broken ones. Melee was too much about falco/fox/marth/shiek. I played falco in Melee a lot. In Brawl I play Mr. Game and Watch, Peach, Ike and often other characters too, and have more fun playing them. In fact, I think there is more potential in Brawl to be pretty great with nearly every character, whereas in Melee I thought that was harder to do.
I definitely agree that fun is subjective, and we all enjoy our own brands of fun. I personally like the characters better in Melee, simply because they have a more unique feel to them. The fact that all characters, even those with multiple jumps, are subject to the same physics in Brawl makes it feel bland to me. I mean, I think Bowser should fall faster than Kirby, ya know?

I played all the time with half the cast of Melee, there really wasn't a character I didn't like playing as. Well... maybe Luigi... so floaty (no wonder I don't like Brawl). I messed around with Falco and Marth but only seriously played with Fox as far as top tier goes, and most of my other chars are low tier. I looove love love mewtwo, his movement and abilities are so strange and unique, and most people barely ever play against a Mewtwo. You'd be surprised how technical he can be. Pichu rocks too, I like him a lot more than Melee pika. Anyways, my reminiscing about the lovely cast of Melee is a digression...

I hold the opposite opinion of yours, I think each character in Melee has more potential. There's just so many ways to outmaneuver, outthink, and work around an opponent, and you can always use speed to your advantage (even with Bowser). I always played with a crew who would play with every character, against any character, so I really grew to appreciate the skills of each one. We didn't worry so much about the tourney scene, so we didn't pigeonhole ourselves to the top tier characters... and thus we eventually made our mid to low tier characters tourney level. I just feel that there's a bigger divide between the 'tiers' in Brawl... in Melee, a great Pichu will almost always beat a good fox, but I don't see a great Ganon beating a good MK in Brawl... there's just too many limitations, there's less choices...

It's like Melee is an open source program... it allows for innovation. Innovation in Brawl rarely leads to good things, you need to stick to the plan. All the good Brawl matches I've seen are basically simple strategies applied over and over and over. In Melee matches I can see the minds of the players, there's a lot more going on.

Wow, I need to keep my posts shorter. But in essence, that's why I find Melee to be more fun, and more competitive. It's so much more open and engages more of your mind. With my crew, it was great to play a crazy fast paced game where anything could happen at anytime... sooo many times we woke up other people in the house at 4am yelling about something ridiculous that happened in the game. Once I got in the Smash groove, I could even look away from the screen for 5 seconds and still know what I was doing and continue with my plan... maybe I haven't played enough Brawl, but I just haven't found a rhythm in the characters like I did in Melee... and I think it's because the rhythms are too slow.

It's been shown that rhythms around 60 bpm or above 120 bpm elevate consciousness... I've never made this connection before, but maybe that's the issue. Melee makes me feel high when I'm in the groove, and I know the bpm is well above 120 (just try and wavedash back and forth for a full minute and count the beats). I always felt Melee was about rhythm (feels like turntablism to me). I don't know where the Brawl rhythm falls, but I'd imagine it's between 60 and 120, leaving your consciousness in the normal plane (and thus explaining why I can't find it :p)

That might sound a bit crazy but I believe it.

BB out.
 
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Im putting you on my ignore list.
Hmm... "ignore" is surprisingly similar to "ignorance," isn't it? To ignore something is refuse to acknowledge it, thus being unaware (or ignorant) of it. No matter how true it may be... Come to realize that you've had seven years to enjoy Melee and less than half of one with Brawl. To be exact, the total time with Brawl would be 3.571429% of what we've had with Melee. Aren't you making a snap judgement with this "I hate Brawl" thing?

By the way, putting me on your "ignore list" only says that you couldn't think of anything smart to say in your own defense, thus proving my point.
 

Superstar

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Hmm... "ignore" is surprisingly similar to "ignorance," isn't it? To ignore something is refuse to acknowledge it, thus being unaware (or ignorant) of it. No matter how true it may be... Come to realize that you've had seven years to enjoy Melee and less than half of one with Brawl. To be exact, the total time with Brawl would be 3.571429% of what we've had with Melee. Aren't you making a snap judgement with this "I hate Brawl" thing?

By the way, putting me on your "ignore list" only says that you couldn't think of anything smart to say in your own defense, thus proving my point.
Well, I made a snap judgement with I love Melee when I bought it, hehehe. I play Brawl for online friendles and that's it. With Melee I'd like to enter a tournament, but so much cash...might be easier to simply get a controller for Kaillera and more RAM.

The point about Melee being more competitive at a higher level of play may explain why Brawl supporters (hate that term) believe that Brawl is just as competitive. If you haven't climbed the mountain of Melee, you simply haven't seen the infinite possibilities in Melee. If you're not tourney level at Melee, but you play both games, then both will likely seem equally competitive. Once you have the higher level of play point of view, you can understand the competitive shortcomings of Brawl.
The only taste I've gotten of this was 1 year of practicing the techs and using them against one opponent. I already like it more given just this very small taste. Now I can't imagine how much I would like it with a better taste.

Pray for super tech given how glitchy the game is [don't count on it]? Anyone who programs physics based on controller ports and a Marth infinite on Ness obviously must have made several unpredictable screwups elsewhere.

SRSRLY, if Bowser has a lower port when he bowsercides he lives, but otherwise he doesn't... along with faux super armor on higher ports. How dumb do the programmers have to be?
 

arrowhead

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Hmm... "ignore" is surprisingly similar to "ignorance," isn't it? To ignore something is refuse to acknowledge it, thus being unaware (or ignorant) of it. No matter how true it may be... Come to realize that you've had seven years to enjoy Melee and less than half of one with Brawl. To be exact, the total time with Brawl would be 3.571429% of what we've had with Melee. Aren't you making a snap judgement with this "I hate Brawl" thing?

By the way, putting me on your "ignore list" only says that you couldn't think of anything smart to say in your own defense, thus proving my point.
i think i'm gonna put you on my ignore list too
 

flyinfilipino

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Hmm... "ignore" is surprisingly similar to "ignorance," isn't it? To ignore something is refuse to acknowledge it, thus being unaware (or ignorant) of it. No matter how true it may be... Come to realize that you've had seven years to enjoy Melee and less than half of one with Brawl. To be exact, the total time with Brawl would be 3.571429% of what we've had with Melee. Aren't you making a snap judgement with this "I hate Brawl" thing?

By the way, putting me on your "ignore list" only says that you couldn't think of anything smart to say in your own defense, thus proving my point.
Err, I think you're on his ignore list because you said the same thing that's been stated in this thread 3,571,429 times.

Just so you know. :)
 

RDK

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Hmm... "ignore" is surprisingly similar to "ignorance," isn't it? To ignore something is refuse to acknowledge it, thus being unaware (or ignorant) of it. No matter how true it may be... Come to realize that you've had seven years to enjoy Melee and less than half of one with Brawl. To be exact, the total time with Brawl would be 3.571429% of what we've had with Melee. Aren't you making a snap judgement with this "I hate Brawl" thing?

By the way, putting me on your "ignore list" only says that you couldn't think of anything smart to say in your own defense, thus proving my point.
He's ignoring you because you say dumb things.
 

The Halloween Captain

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You know the whole "MK and Snake" are the only viable Brawl characters would have A LOT more viablility if not for melee's "year of the space animals." Wasn't like 70% of all tournament entrants made up of space animals one year?
 

Samochan

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You know the whole "MK and Snake" are the only viable Brawl characters would have A LOT more viablility if not for melee's "year of the space animals." Wasn't like 70% of all tournament entrants made up of space animals one year?
Uuh, no sheik? >_> I find it hard to believe, considering sheik's chaingrab was easily abused in the earlier stages. Also I doubt there were that many falco players either, considering people and their moms begun to only really play him after they saw some bombsoldier vids (I think). And at that time (I think it was 2003-2004 or 2005, I dunno) Ken was also showing how marth is played, sprouting new marth players left and right. Not forgetting Mike G inventing peach here somewhere, inspiring loads of people to play peach.

I could be wrong, but it would be nice to know what year are you refering to. >_>
 

The Halloween Captain

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This wasn't actually during the early stages, it was in the latter years of melee when everyone seemed to love the space animals. I'm not really sure what caused it, but my impressions was that the influx of these two characters was a EXPONENTIALLY GROWING POPULARITY IN TOURNAMENT LEVEL PLAY at the time of the event.

Brawl is popular at the higher levels, so people are flocking to the two most successful characters disproportionately of the ability of lesser characters.
 

Samochan

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This wasn't actually during the early stages, it was in the latter years of melee when everyone seemed to love the space animals. I'm not really sure what caused it, but my impressions was that the influx of these two characters was a EXPONENTIALLY GROWING POPULARITY IN TOURNAMENT LEVEL PLAY at the time of the event.
Everyone loves space animals because they have many good matchups and have multiple ways of practicing technical skill, along with being very good secondaries to marth and sheik. >_> Many of those that played marth or sheik also played fox or falco, and vice versa. And many space animal players also played the other spacey, not forgetting occasional captain falcons cause he's so fun to play with and simply awesome. I still find it hard to believe this tiny 30% of yours would include all the marths, sheiks, peaches and captain falcons played at that time. >_> If there was a space animal, there was a big possiblity of that person using marth or sheik as a secondary. Or if there was a marth/sheik player, they usually played space animal as a secondary char.
 

The Halloween Captain

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Sorry, Samochan.

I may have misquoted some bad info from the Brawl v. Melee balance forum, which said that 70% USED a space animal either as a main or a secondary. Its very late where I live, and a half hour of searching revealed that there doesn't appear to be any polls which list the character demographics of these tournaments, so I'm just going to drop the matter.

Still, you have to admit that most melee tourney vids feature at least one spacie, and these two are the only two top tier characters in the game (as stated by the Smash Back Room).
 

Samochan

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Still, you have to admit that most melee tourney vids feature at least one spacie, and these two are the only two top tier characters in the game (as stated by the Smash Back Room).
Though it is generaly agreed upon that Fox, Marth and Sheik all exceed Falco in terms of "favorable matchups" and "being a better character" since the current tier list displayed on tournament discussion is outdated. Falco's recovery gives him severe disadvantage due to the level of gimps that can be used on him and easily take a stock. He's also the only one of these characters that has even matchup vs peach, if not slightly favorable to peach even.
 
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Hmm... "ignore" is surprisingly similar to "ignorance," isn't it? To ignore something is refuse to acknowledge it, thus being unaware (or ignorant) of it. No matter how true it may be... Come to realize that you've had seven years to enjoy Melee and less than half of one with Brawl. To be exact, the total time with Brawl would be 3.571429% of what we've had with Melee. Aren't you making a snap judgement with this "I hate Brawl" thing?

By the way, putting me on your "ignore list" only says that you couldn't think of anything smart to say in your own defense, thus proving my point.
Yes. Because it's sooo much better to embrace the ignorant, repetitive fallacies of new players on a daily bases. This topic isn't for proving points, it's a debate.

And if you want to get Melee Technical, you aren't proving anything in your defense except for instigating what Reaper said and used it in your own defense. You should stop beating that Horse now.

I wouldn't rather "Ignore" the "Ignorant", because the only thing that will come from them is "Ignorance". C Wut I Did Thar!!!
 

LOL_Master

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stop talking about hypothetical things, jeeze, just go to a tourney that has good people, and play them, they'll **** you with most of the characters
 

Fletch

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You know, I really don't trust that argument at all. Held a 35-man tournament on May 24th that had one of Texas' best Snakes, T-Rex, and he came in 4th. Top 3? Ice Climbers, Dedede, Wolf, in that order (1,2,3). In fact, the Loser's Bracket semi-finals had T-Rex v. kirbykid, and kirbykid almost had it (I wish I had all of the matches recorded; oh, wait! I do have one.). So, yeah.
No offense, but you are also quoting results from a tournament with items on...
 

Corigames

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Hmm... "ignore" is surprisingly similar to "ignorance," isn't it? To ignore something is refuse to acknowledge it, thus being unaware (or ignorant) of it. No matter how true it may be... Come to realize that you've had seven years to enjoy Melee and less than half of one with Brawl. To be exact, the total time with Brawl would be 3.571429% of what we've had with Melee. Aren't you making a snap judgement with this "I hate Brawl" thing?

By the way, putting me on your "ignore list" only says that you couldn't think of anything smart to say in your own defense, thus proving my point.
I hate this argument, you know why?

If you have a close friend, whom you really like, and enjoyed his company every day for... let's say... seven years. Then, after those seven years, he has to get on a plane to fly away out of state, but hooks you up with his older brother. His older brother is bigger, more hansom, but a little bit dumber. So you try to hang out with him, but it's just not working out. You don't like him, he's not as cool as your original friend. Are you seriously suppose to wait 7 years before deciding that you don't like him, or should you wake up every single day going, "Maybe things will change."

If you don't like something, you don't like it. You don't need to wait any more than maybe a week (and that's pushing it) to come to that conclusion.

Plus, saying that 4 months is a snap, SNAP SNAP, judgement is ridiculous.
 
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Yes. Because it's sooo much better to embrace the ignorant, repetitive fallacies of new players on a daily bases. This topic isn't for proving points, it's a debate.

And if you want to get Melee Technical, you aren't proving anything in your defense except for instigating what Reaper said and used it in your own defense. You should stop beating that Horse now.

I wouldn't rather "Ignore" the "Ignorant", because the only thing that will come from them is "Ignorance". C Wut I Did Thar!!!
Who said I wanted to prove anything in my own defense? I just wanted to point out that Brawl and Melee are both great games, and that ignoring someone else's opinion because it is different than yours is a little immature. All I know is, each game has specific pros and cons, and whichever you prefer shouldn't be the basis for an online war. I was just trying to point out that, (while I do think people should at least try Brawl) people shouldn't ignore other opinions only because they don't follow exactly what they say.

(By the way, nice ending line EPF!)
 

Jack Kieser

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No offense, but you are also quoting results from a tournament with items on...
Oh, I SO wish I was awake when you posted that. I don't know if you keep up with that project (most people who say what you just did don't), but I've had a LOT of people (including Mods and members of the SBR, by the way) comment that our project has yielded the most balanced and fruitful item play since... well, ever considering no one has ever tried to make an item ban list before that didn't have every item on it. So, yeah. Not a single person at that tournament complained about unfairness in matches or thought that anything other than a lack (or abundance) of skill decided a match.

So, yeah. Items were on. The game actually moved faster and had less camping, too. And the tournament was praised all around by all 35 entrants. And a few 3rd parties.
 

Scar

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I hate this argument, you know why?

If you have a close friend, whom you really like, and enjoyed his company every day for... let's say... seven years. Then, after those seven years, he has to get on a plane to fly away out of state, but hooks you up with his older brother. His older brother is bigger, more hansom, but a little bit dumber. So you try to hang out with him, but it's just not working out. You don't like him, he's not as cool as your original friend. Are you seriously suppose to wait 7 years before deciding that you don't like him, or should you wake up every single day going, "Maybe things will change."

If you don't like something, you don't like it. You don't need to wait any more than maybe a week (and that's pushing it) to come to that conclusion.

Plus, saying that 4 months is a snap, SNAP SNAP, judgement is ridiculous.
This whole thing illustrates a point VERY well. I think everyone is sick and tired of Brawl supporters pulling the time card. I don't think it's going to have any sort of huge impact, and this is why.

Physics exploits and glitches are two different things. Z- and L-canceling were both intentionally put in, presumably so that aerials weren't so easily punishable. Wavedashing is exploiting the physics engine by doing a very simple thing in an unconventional way. Physics exploits similar to wavedashing and l-canceling in Brawl were what everyone was looking for since February. No one's found anything, but it appears that some people are finding glitches.

The glitch I'm really referring to is the infinite second jump. It is extremely hard to do and apparently not very practical. More things like this will be found as time goes on, but it being practical and useful is highly unlikely.
 

Skler

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So, yeah. Not a single person at that tournament complained about unfairness in matches or thought that anything other than a lack (or abundance) of skill decided a match.
People who would attend an item tournament wouldn't complain about items. Why would they go to a tournament with items on if they were going to complain about them?

Items also change the balance of the game, smash with items is entirely different from smash without items. There would be two completely different tier lists for item play and no item play, so saying Brawl is balanced because of one item tournament is just silly. Melee with items on has different balance then Melee without items, the tiers change (faster characters and characters without projectiles move up) and the gaps between tiers decrease (because of the randomness, there's a chance of anybody getting lucky and winning due to item spawns).

What I'm trying to say is the tier list for item play would be entirely different then the one for no item play. Also way to yield the most balanced and fruitful item tournament ever, you just got first place in an event nobody else entered. Why even mention that in your post?

The results of your tournament do not make Brawl more balanced/competitive. It might mean Brawl with items on is more balanced then Brawl without items (although it was still just one tournament with no big names so it doesn't matter). I got first place in a local Melee tournament with Link, it had 25 people in it including the top 10 players in NH. Link is top tier, my one small tournament says so, and it was even using the proper format. If my tournament didn't prove anything neither did yours.

This post may sound rude, but you saying Brawl is balanced because of one tournament with items on is crazy talk.
 

Jack Kieser

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@Skler: Whoa, whoa, whoa... when did I say that items made Brawl more balanced? I don't think I've said anything of the sort. I was saying that Snake and Metaknight don't dominate every single tournament with impunity. If anything, items would help both of them (Metaknight is quick and agile, and could probably beat you to the item, and Snake's already good camping game gets exponentially better because he has access to more things to throw). I really don't think that they are as infallible as people make them out to be, items or not. So, please don't try to put words in my mouth or take me out of context. I said NOTHING of what you insinuated in your post.
 

flyinfilipino

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Who said I wanted to prove anything in my own defense? I just wanted to point out that Brawl and Melee are both great games, and that ignoring someone else's opinion because it is different than yours is a little immature. All I know is, each game has specific pros and cons, and whichever you prefer shouldn't be the basis for an online war. I was just trying to point out that, (while I do think people should at least try Brawl) people shouldn't ignore other opinions only because they don't follow exactly what they say.

(By the way, nice ending line EPF!)
That's nice, but you missed the part where everyone explained that what that person said has been repeated almost verbatim at least 1000x here.
 

Fletch

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People who would attend an item tournament wouldn't complain about items. Why would they go to a tournament with items on if they were going to complain about them?

Items also change the balance of the game, smash with items is entirely different from smash without items. There would be two completely different tier lists for item play and no item play, so saying Brawl is balanced because of one item tournament is just silly. Melee with items on has different balance then Melee without items, the tiers change (faster characters and characters without projectiles move up) and the gaps between tiers decrease (because of the randomness, there's a chance of anybody getting lucky and winning due to item spawns).

What I'm trying to say is the tier list for item play would be entirely different then the one for no item play. Also way to yield the most balanced and fruitful item tournament ever, you just got first place in an event nobody else entered. Why even mention that in your post?

The results of your tournament do not make Brawl more balanced/competitive. It might mean Brawl with items on is more balanced then Brawl without items (although it was still just one tournament with no big names so it doesn't matter). I got first place in a local Melee tournament with Link, it had 25 people in it including the top 10 players in NH. Link is top tier, my one small tournament says so, and it was even using the proper format. If my tournament didn't prove anything neither did yours.

This post may sound rude, but you saying Brawl is balanced because of one tournament with items on is crazy talk.
Thank you for saving me from having to type that out.

@Skler: Whoa, whoa, whoa... when did I say that items made Brawl more balanced? I don't think I've said anything of the sort. I was saying that Snake and Metaknight don't dominate every single tournament with impunity. If anything, items would help both of them (Metaknight is quick and agile, and could probably beat you to the item, and Snake's already good camping game gets exponentially better because he has access to more things to throw). I really don't think that they are as infallible as people make them out to be, items or not. So, please don't try to put words in my mouth or take me out of context. I said NOTHING of what you insinuated in your post.
Snake and Metaknight place far and away better than other characters, take a look at results. Of course it isn't 100%, but they are clearly better characters than the rest of the cast right now. Even if items help them (I really think they would drastically hurt Snake especially), they simply make the game more random than if they are not turned on, and those results are irrelevant anyways because we are talking about balance in standard tournament play.
 

Jack Kieser

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@fletch71011: He may have saved you from typing it out, but that doesn't change the fact that his response had nothing to do with what I was trying to say.

And I'm not denying that they are doing well right now, but people (knowledgeable veteran Smashers, btw) are saying that Snake and Meta are infallible, and that just isn't true. Better, probably. God tier unstoppable? Hardly.
 

Skler

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@Jack

Saying Snake and MK don't dominate is saying Brawl is more balanced then everyone else gives it credit for. You used an item tournament as proof of this. Saying two characters aren't much better then the rest of the cast is arguing that Brawl is balanced, just because you didn't say "brawl is more balanced" doesn't mean you weren't trying to prove it's (more) balanced.

You even just said Snake and MK aren't dominant. You're arguing balance right now, and I argued against it. I'm really just trying to explain that an item tournament isn't proof of anything because nobody else uses them. If you brought up a tournament where Snake and MK didn't make up most of the top 5 then it would be proof that Snake and MK aren't that dominant (assuming good snake/MK players went to the tournament).

Items don't help snake, snake is big and already has a great item. Giving other characters projectiles weakens his advantage of camping with grenades until he can camp with ftilts.

Edit: I was beaten to the punch.
 

Jack Kieser

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Seattle, WA
Ok, I'm NOT SAYING THAT THEY AREN'T DOMINATING. Stop that. It's getting on my nerves. I'm saying that they aren't as unstoppable as people are making them out to be. They are good, yes, and I never said they weren't dominating, but they are nowhere near godly. It's not a matter of balance, or tournament results, it's a matter of people constantly using hyperbole.
 
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