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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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Corigames

Smash Hero
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I answered you, if you are going to be immature and not answer me, then it is obvious that my questioning of your education is not unfounded.

"or how much I know about Smash?"

Yes. This is the best place to learn how to play smash. If you just joined here, then you don't know as much as other people. If you joined today and you are insulting people about what they are talking about as if you know as much as someone who has been here a while, then I think everyone has the right to criticize you for your posting ethics. Yeah, read the title under your name and learn your place.

"Do you think this is the only place to talk about Smash?"

Do you not? You want to go to brawlisall or whatever the name of that site is? Do you want to go to gamefaqs and post there? Event hough there is a lot of spam here and rehashed debates, there are always hidden meanings in them. There are no, "Type you favorite characters name with your nose!" threads. We aren't dumb. If you want to not get better, not play serious, not learn, or anything, then go ahead and leave. It's not like the destruction of your account will phase me or anyone else.

As long as you are here, try to learn. Don't argue in discussions you aren't even in. you are new here, you are suppose to be sitting back and learning.

New people >_>
 

xXZeroXx

Smash Cadet
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LOL, I love your answers.
I saw something in your post wich I though was directly made for bovineblitzkrieg.
We aren't dumb. If you want to not get better, not play serious, not learn, or anything, then go ahead and leave
I really love this sentence, REALLY. It just fit in what I think about bovine, EXACTLY the same. Now, again, you say I don't answer your post, but I did. But I didn't see any answer to my post. I just see some "I'm BA compared to you, you are just a noob" comments in your post like this:
Yeah, read the title under your name and learn your place.
And you still talk about EDUCATION? REALLY?, who the hell do you think you are? Even if you were Ken you would have no RIGHT to answer someone like that. Did I told you to shut up your nonsense? NO, then just answer to a PERSON, not to a stupid title given out by how many posts you wrote and not wich doesn't defines me wether I'm good or bad in Smash.

Since I started to write you managed to talk ONLY about my registration day and the title. Is that the only thing to watch out of my messages, the LEFT part of the window?.

I knew this place long time ago, I just decided not to join to forums where people talked English (yes, you know I'm from Spain, if you know some geography you may know what language we talk here) and I didn't dominate it (although I still manage to make typos and some grammar mistakes).

There are forums here too to talk about Smash, yes. But of course, they are not as big as this, so, you'll take it as a fact of how nooby am I, right?
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
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I don't have anything against you, zero. You seem intelligent enough. However, I think you may have misunderstood what bovine was saying, or why he didn't expand on it.

bovineblitzkrieg said:
They don't get enough discussion because they're only borderline useful, if that.

We aren't learning techs because there aren't any useful techs. Why bother to learn semi-useful techs when you can just shield camp and infinite chainthrow?
First off, it's important to realize what this was in reference to. The person said that we needed new techs, but weren't finding any, and made a remark about how "new techs aren't getting enough discussion."

The first paragraph responds to the "new techs aren't getting enough discussion" comment, and for the most part, it's true. Many "techs" in brawl aren't that useful or game changing. Sure, characters can use them, and they will benefit slightly from them, but they don't change the way games are played significantly.

The second paragraph could have probably been phrased better. Basically, as has been stated throughout this topic, people have been searching out new techs in brawl en masse, but the core physics of the game are a huge obstacle that just cannot be overcome by new advanced techs. Sakurai intentionally made the game simpler, and we've probably already found the majority of techs in the game at this point. The problem is, that brawl's game physics encourage an overly defensive style of play, which doesn't require much technical prowess, at least in terms of different techs being applied. Camping takes a basic understanding of timing and spacing, and due to being so superior to offensive play, techs that arise still aren't useful enough to overcome this imbalance. Most techs that have been found out offer a little bit more to the game (although some really are game changing, ie. snake's mortar slide), but the fact still remains that you don't need them to win, because camping is so effective, and doesn't really require that you learn them.

I'm sorry that you construed this as complaining, but when you're trying to explain a flaw in the game, it's hard for it to sound any other way. The reason he didn't elaborate greatly, as has already been stated, is that that he didn't really need to. This thread has mentioned these concepts many many times over, and he simply gave the other person the reader's digest version. Had that person come back to argue the point, someone (whether it be bovine or someone else doesn't matter) could have given a more in depth argument as to why techs aren't being discussed/found and used.
 

xXZeroXx

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Well, leafgreen, I'm glad you explained it deeply. Now I understand (a little) Bovine's point of view, although I don't share it.

I still see more experience is needed in this game to be better than others. I think we even need more mind games that what Melee had (it was fast enough to not even think about enemies space).

Talking about Brawl techniques, seems like every new discover stills doesn't change the diffrence (the balance you were tlaking about) between pros and newbies. Refering to that, I had to say that the first time I played Brawl (and even some days after) I played like if I didn't know anything about Smash Bros, not because I wanted it to be like that but because the game forced me to be bad. So I think that's the problem here (and everywhere), we still don't know how to play SSBB. We have to get used to the fact that those considered advanced techniques are NOT here again. But it seems for some players that made the game no competitive and even casual.

I just wanted to point out that the game can be even more competitive than Melee thanks to ATs not brought back. Seems pretty stupid comments like "whatever you do won't work, because then you'll encounter MK or Snake", like if they abandoned the game just because they were beaten by some OP characters...
 

arrowhead

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I still see more experience is needed in this game to be better than others. I think we even need more mind games that what Melee had (it was fast enough to not even think about enemies space).
no. mindgames are just more important in brawl than in melee because of the lack of techs, but the techs in melee allow for more options for mindgames

we still don't know how to play SSBB.
yes we do. camp.

We have to get used to the fact that those considered advanced techniques are NOT here again. But it seems for some players that made the game no competitive and even casual.
you should have done some research before making false claims. advanced techs have little to do with it. the physics is what makes the game less competitive.

I just wanted to point out that the game can be even more competitive than Melee thanks to ATs not brought back. Seems pretty stupid comments like "whatever you do won't work, because then you'll encounter MK or Snake", like if they abandoned the game just because they were beaten by some OP characters...
this sounds like you just pulled it out of your ***.
 

Smooth Criminal

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I just wanted to point out that the game can be even more competitive than Melee thanks to ATs not brought back.
Wait for it...


arrowhead said:
you should have done some research before making false claims. advanced techs have little to do with it. the physics is what makes the game less competitive.
Without waxing too much intelligence, allow me to make a quick (nerdy) analogy to solidify arrowhead's comment.

I'm sure you guys remember the very first Lord of the Rings movie, right? Y'know, the one scene were Bilbo invites Gandalf into his little Hobbit home for some tea and biscuits? Well, imagine this just for a minute. Put yourself in Gandalf's shoes while he was standing inside of the Hobbit house. Mother****er was grazing the ceiling with the back of his head the whole **** time, barely able to get around. Imagine, if you will, that Gandalf is an extension of yourself and is the player (you) sitting in front of the Wii playing Brawl. Now think of the stifling Hobbit house as Brawl and its mechanics.

Suppose in this scenario that Bilbo asks Gandalf (you, the player) to perform a simple action like jumping. Well, you try to jump and you succeed in doing so, but you realize that you succeed in bashing the back of your ****ing head against the ceiling. This is highly uncomfortable and causes (obvious) pain. The Hobbit house wasn't designed for you in mind; it was designed for all of the other little guys that run around the Shire.

And so it is with Brawl. Elements like tripping, lack of hitstun, and auto-sweetspotting are just a few of the many things Sakurai and Company implemented to keep Brawl's threshold of advanced play really, really low. It is the proverbial ceiling that Gandalf will keep banging his head off of, regardless of how hard he tries to push the game.

I say this: Brawl was worth the fifty bucks I paid for it. But is it as deep, as robust, and as competitive as Melee?

No.

Smooth Criminal
 

shal

Smash Apprentice
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you have to think about it tho, yes it is worth your money but common any game can be achieved by working hard, and thats why the pros are still on top. Only some of the game mechanics have been changed but do you really need to use it so much? The only thing i found very gay was tripping and even with that your all pissy but if it doesn't happen to you your glad as hell.
 

Zankoku

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Actually, I still miss the hitstun, especially since it's been discovered you can air-dodge at practically ANY time now, instead of having to wait for hitstun to end.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Actually, I still miss the hitstun, especially since it's been discovered you can air-dodge at practically ANY time now, instead of having to wait for hitstun to end.
That is my BIGGEST issue with Brawl. I'm dead serious. I would hold the game in higher esteem if it weren't for that little bit.

Smooth Criminal
 

Fletch

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Actually, I still miss the hitstun, especially since it's been discovered you can air-dodge at practically ANY time now, instead of having to wait for hitstun to end.
Ya, I love how most the new members say that the game can be deep without ATs, and never address this issue whatsoever, which is the biggest hindrance to Brawl being a good tournament game.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
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Wait for it...




Without waxing too much intelligence, allow me to make a quick (nerdy) analogy to solidify arrowhead's comment.

I'm sure you guys remember the very first Lord of the Rings movie, right? Y'know, the one scene were Bilbo invites Gandalf into his little Hobbit home for some tea and biscuits? Well, imagine this just for a minute. Put yourself in Gandalf's shoes while he was standing inside of the Hobbit house. Mother****er was grazing the ceiling with the back of his head the whole **** time, barely able to get around. Imagine, if you will, that Gandalf is an extension of yourself and is the player (you) sitting in front of the Wii playing Brawl. Now think of the stifling Hobbit house as Brawl and its mechanics.

Suppose in this scenario that Bilbo asks Gandalf (you, the player) to perform a simple action like jumping. Well, you try to jump and you succeed in doing so, but you realize that you succeed in bashing the back of your ****ing head against the ceiling. This is highly uncomfortable and causes (obvious) pain. The Hobbit house wasn't designed for you in mind; it was designed for all of the other little guys that run around the Shire.

And so it is with Brawl. Elements like tripping, lack of hitstun, and auto-sweetspotting are just a few of the many things Sakurai and Company implemented to keep Brawl's threshold of advanced play really, really low. It is the proverbial ceiling that Gandalf will keep banging his head off of, regardless of how hard he tries to push the game.

I say this: Brawl was worth the fifty bucks I paid for it. But is it as deep, as robust, and as competitive as Melee?

No.

Smooth Criminal
I think I just nerdgasmed.

But in all seriousness, it's a myriad of things that ruins Brawl for me. No hitstun...slower gameplay...Cort...
 

bovineblitzkrieg

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Zero, you should have read the thread. Also, I couldn't understand what you said because your sentence structure and choice of words were poor... you should have said something like "with that mindset going in you're not likely to find anything", not "my mood won't pull it out". My mood isn't the thing looking for the techs, it's my mind. And I figured that you couldn't be saying the SAME THING that's been said by every noob in this thread, could you?

Well leafgreen did a good job of explaining the gist of the argument to you. I would've been more harsh, but props to him for his patience. And my answer to the original post was quite clear, if you're not a noob (or you READ THE THREAD). I gave good reasons, maybe you're the one with the reading comprehension problem. Also corey already ripped you for being a noob (it's obvious, and not because of your registration date), so I don't really have to do that anymore either. He also answered your question as to why what I said makes sense, but you chose to ignore it. Btw, we can't just "make mindgames" for Brawl, as you suggest (when you said that we need more mindgames), we're limited by the physics engine. Mindgames requires options to allow you to use your creativity, and there simply aren't that many viable options.

I find it hilarious that you think the comment about not getting better and not playing seriously applies to me... who are you to question me? How many tourneys have you been in buddy? Did you even play Melee? Obviously you don't know what it takes for a game to have a competitive scene if you think Brawl can be more competitive than Melee, and it's laughable that you don't understand the comments about MK and Snake.

It's not a bad game if you don't care about the outcomes, but horrible if you do. I personally play to win, and this game, thus far, boils down to two or three characters and possibly some specific counterpicks... that's lame. Especially when you consider all the other flaws in the game. Easy infinites, slow gameplay, no hitlag, no offense, overpowered shield, shallow learning curve, spam happiness, gimped edgegame, few options, limited movement, REPETITION, TRIPPING, ridiculous sweetspots, multi/whenever airdodges, and generally annoying tactics beings superior = not a fun game for a competitive mindset.

Did I elaborate for you enough Zero? Or are you so upset that we all think you're a noob that you can't get over it and just react emotionally?

The cows rest their case (all up in yo' face).


edit: Smooth that was a sick comparison.
 

JayBee

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...most of which become useless when up against a good Snake or MK.

you could say the same comment on a Melee Fox or Marth so what's the deal.


Lemme say a few things that I've felt about Brawl for a while and this is mostly opinion:
I know that Brawls Mechanincs were altered in a manner that in the short time we had it, caters to the camping game. But In the short time I had it, I feel that the game has become more poke-oriented and Projectile oriented as well. 2 of the three best characters (Snake, D3) have high priority pokes and strong projectiles. Toon Link, another strong character, and even Link can rely on thier signature specials more than they could in Melee, cause you could never get away with it for more than two seconds. I feel that the game was made to force players to use all the moves a char has. If you think about it, from a moveset perspective, the character selection overall has improved from what I feel was a much more narrow selection of characters in Melee.

When I say "narrow selection of characters in Melee" I am saying that even though it is true that it may take less technical skill to reach a level of competent Smash, because the characters overall (with a few exceptions, OMG Ganon you suck) have improved, you have Marth, Snake, D3, MK, Diddy, Sonic, Bowser (you could almost never choose a Bowser and seriously expect to go far as your main in Melee btw) and few others that will do very well, where as in Melee, if you were not a Marth, Fox, Falco, or Shiek, you were so at a disadvantage you had to be crazy better just to compensate and give you a semi-decent chance.

I also want to say that although many people are tooting the technical superiority of Melee, Keep in mind that the majority of AT in Melee were movement oriented, and most of the time, the time to master these techniques were basically used just so you can juke someone into a grab attempt. Marth, Fox, Shiek, Captain Falco, and IC's in Melee relied on the same thing as a major part of thier game. Grabbing. Especially the Captain, who if he doesn't grab for an entire match, his chances of winning decrese drastically. How is that cool with you? He's even worse now. Why? because the movement AT are gone. Also , due to those same movements, a good Melee user at the highest level need only to land a few knowdowns, and no matter who fast or effective are you at moving, at that point, you are at the complete mercy of the guy who threw or knocked you down. Oh, yeah, you can DI. and? you get no realistic opportunity to save yourself out side of DI. and that's it. and don't say that it's the same in all fighting games because they all at least have some form of counter move or at least a reversal like the Shouryuken or a wakeup move/super.

The way I see it, we may need to readjust the way we follow up and continue attacks. I mean, the dude DI's right after you attack him, but what's to stop you from anticipating the dodge and following up accordingly? If a player refuses to change the style of course they'll be upset that they can't kill you 0% to death on one mistake. I am a bit confused though, on how it is less competetive for the advanced player if they have to work harder to kill an opponent. Less advanced technically, i can see that clearly, but to make a game sound so uncompetetive as to imply that a random person can pick up brawl and beat on or compete with an "advanced" smasher seems a bit extreme and quite frankly, you may not have been as good as you thought you were.


Despite the differences, I still enjoy and regulary play Brawl, and I except the differences and adjust as best I can. I play Both Melee and Brawl and its not like I am some random Brawl noob who just signed up March 2008 to say meaningless things; I've been here awhile. But when I see such hate on a game that apparently the majority of the people who don't like it just wanna waveshine and the crap outta someone endlessly (a generalization, but you know what I mean) but they can't really say that it's a terrible game in good concience, Then, what the hell?

And I'm so sorry that "Sakurai hates us," but sometimes I wonder if some of the people on this forum put a new meaning to the word, "overreacting."
 

Aesir

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you could say the same comment on a Melee Fox or Marth so what's the deal.
you could but it would be very inaccurate.

Marth and Fox, all had very good match ups but they also had some odd match ups, match ups that were just a toss up at times.

for instance since I'm not a Fox main so I can't really say, Marth vs Sheik, I can say this with confidence that Marth is at a disadvantage vs sheik, it's just not as big of a disadvantage as some would think.

There are good amount of characters that do alright vs marth for instance.

Fox
CF
Sheik
Link (to an extent.)

Those are just the ones that stick out in my mind.

To say that picking fox or marth = auto win (not sure if thats what you're implying but thats how I read it.) is pretty inaccurate.
 

NES n00b

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Also, there are larger skill gaps in Melee. So being crazy better than another person is more common than Brawl. So being able to beat a Sheik with Link is more realistic since the Link player could be much better than the Sheik ann/or is really good about the matchup while the Sheik is green in that area. Ness vs Marth is just like grab and press Z. Anyone could do it.

Very sad.
 

leafgreen386

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Sorry these aren't exactly in order of your post. I kinda responded to each in whatever order I thought of a response in.

I also want to say that although many people are tooting the technical superiority of Melee, Keep in mind that the majority of AT in Melee were movement oriented, and most of the time, the time to master these techniques were basically used just so you can juke someone into a grab attempt. Marth, Fox, Shiek, Captain Falco, and IC's in Melee relied on the same thing as a major part of thier game. Grabbing. Especially the Captain, who if he doesn't grab for an entire match, his chances of winning decrese drastically. How is that cool with you? He's even worse now. Why? because the movement AT are gone. Also , due to those same movements, a good Melee user at the highest level need only to land a few knowdowns, and no matter who fast or effective are you at moving, at that point, you are at the complete mercy of the guy who threw or knocked you down. Oh, yeah, you can DI. and? you get no realistic opportunity to save yourself out side of DI. and that's it. and don't say that it's the same in all fighting games because they all at least have some form of counter move or at least a reversal like the Shouryuken or a wakeup move/super.
The technical superiority of melee isn't what we miss. I don't care if someone can just pick up the game and know how to use the techs in days. What I do care about is the ability to have options, and actually have ways to outsmart the opponent besides "walking forward menacingly." Movement options are what allowed varied mind games. It doesn't matter if you know how to dashdance or wavedash if you can't use them to trick your opponent. It's the application of these techs that matters. The problem is there is no way to apply techs like these in brawl, because they don't exist. By restricting our movement options, we've lost a high degree of control over our characters, not just for getting a grab, but for getting anything.

Especially the Captain, who if he doesn't grab for an entire match, his chances of winning decrese drastically. How is that cool with you? He's even worse now. Why? because the movement AT are gone.
I'd like to emphasize this point, which ironically supports my argument more than your own. Those movement techs are what allowed any character to be played well, provided you could out think your opponent. And why does the fact that he really wanted a grab offend you so much, anyway? Every character in both games need something in order to win. Even if a pit gets you up to 200% with arrows, if he can't land a melee move on you, he won't be able kill you. Every character needs to land a certain move in order to perform well, and if falcon needed to grab to combo, what makes it so different than any other character... from either game?

The fact that you can't 0-death people isn't the problem, either. The fact that you can't get any consecutive hits against a good player is. You can literally air dodge at any time in this game. Even right after being launched by an attack, before their lag even finishes. You can get out of almost any follow up between not only smart airdodging, but also hitting them out of their attack. This is the fundamental problem, and the argument has been made time after time again. Brawl favors the defensive player, and discourages follow ups.

Another thing... with good DI you can get out of pretty much any "big" combo. If you don't, you messed up, and deserved to be 0-death'd. A 0-death never results from "one mistake." It's quite often a series of mistakes that allows the 0-death to happen.


Lemme say a few things that I've felt about Brawl for a while and this is mostly opinion:
I know that Brawls Mechanincs were altered in a manner that in the short time we had it, caters to the camping game. But In the short time I had it, I feel that the game has become more poke-oriented and Projectile oriented as well. 2 of the three best characters (Snake, D3) have high priority pokes and strong projectiles. Toon Link, another strong character, and even Link can rely on thier signature specials more than they could in Melee, cause you could never get away with it for more than two seconds. I feel that the game was made to force players to use all the moves a char has. If you think about it, from a moveset perspective, the character selection overall has improved from what I feel was a much more narrow selection of characters in Melee.
So spamming the same couple moves to rack up damage while keeping the foe away with a couple other moves and eventually killing with one of a couple moves is considered using a wide variety of moves? That's news to me. Although it is clear that they WANTED you to use a variety of moves by the stale moves system, in actuality, it hasn't done anything but restrict our move usage. In melee, if you had an opening to use fox's usmash, you could use it, even if there was no way it would kill them, and it would bring your foe that much closer to getting killed. In brawl, if you use fox's usmash slightly early, it actually takes longer for you to kill them, as now you have to use other moves to refresh your usmash, which of course is your main killing move. Usmash is hardly a spammable move, but you're forced to use it even less often than you normally would be able to, narrowing your option set. The stale moves system in brawl reduces your options at any given time, at least in a practical sense.

When I say "narrow selection of characters in Melee" I am saying that even though it is true that it may take less technical skill to reach a level of competent Smash, because the characters overall (with a few exceptions, OMG Ganon you suck) have improved, you have Marth, Snake, D3, MK, Diddy, Sonic, Bowser (you could almost never choose a Bowser and seriously expect to go far as your main in Melee btw) and few others that will do very well, where as in Melee, if you were not a Marth, Fox, Falco, or Shiek, you were so at a disadvantage you had to be crazy better just to compensate and give you a semi-decent chance.
The fact that bowser was bad in melee and is good in brawl is irrelevant. If pichu was in brawl and was somehow god tier, while everyone else sucked, would that make the game more balanced? No, it wouldn't. Just because a character gets buffed from one game to the next doesn't mean a thing as far as balance is concerned.

Also, in brawl, if you're not a metaknight or snake, you're probably not going to win tournies. How is this so much more balanced than melee, where you had to play fox, falco, marth, or sheik to have a good chance at winning tournies? If you take out all the unbalancing characters, of course you can make a game look balanced. But that just isn't how it works. People are going to play the best, and if the best are way better than everyone else, then no matter how balanced the rest of the game is, the game is not truly balanced.
 

NoVaLombardia

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@ xXZeroXx's jibba jabba
You make me laugh, not because of your post counts or join date, but because you haven't said one useful thing (like many others) in this thread.

You have either attacked other posts for no reason or say whats been said already over again (without reading the OP again probably)


Let's go over some things from the OP.
xXZeroXx said:
I just wanted to point out that the game can be even more competitive than Melee thanks to ATs not brought back.
xXZeroXx said:
We have to get used to the fact that those considered advanced techniques are NOT here again.
Quoted from OP:
Things Scar is NOT saying that people consistently read somehow

-Melee players should consistently win in Brawl as much as they did in Melee
-Advanced techs make Melee deep
-I hate Brawl
-*whine whine whine*

Compare those two above. And to comment on that 2nd quote above this quote from the OP; everyone knows and everyone is used to the fact that the ATs aren't there.


And now for something completely different:
xXZeroXx said:
Maybe you are the one who didn't read the first post, where said not to complain but to give GOOD REASONS against one or other game?
They don't get enough discussion because they're only borderline useful, if that.

We aren't learning techs because there aren't any useful techs. Why bother to learn semi-useful techs when you can just shield camp and infinite chainthrow?


You're Responses to statements such as those underlined above:
xXZeroXx said:
So, what's the purpose of this answer?
xXZeroXx said:
I'm sure there are pretty useful techniques in Brawl, but your mood is not going to pull them out for sure.
xXZeroXx said:
I said that your mood is not going to pull out techinques, WTH don't you understand there? Is it that hard to understand? OK, I'll explain it specially for you, it will be easy don't worry: If you play a game like "This sux, I wanna play melee, Brawl BAAAA" then you won't main any character and I'm sure you WON'T discover anything useful
You didn't give a single good reason why, you just use a scapegoat of more ATs being yet to be discovered and eventually some other people will find a useful one. In otherwords, you're saying that Brawl needs more time, which we have already gone over time and time again, that is not the issue we are discussing. Not only that, we've already gone over that ATs aren't the major aspect that add to a game's deepness.

What's funny is that most of the metagame that most people on the boards have come to accept and already know about isn't absorbing through your skull. You constantly retaliate about people giving up and making the game unfun, yet you yourself haven't given any solid facts about why, or let alone have made any effort in breaking the game.

It is like you are in denial that most of the game has been figured out, and can't accept the simpleness involved in Brawl's tournament play.

Lurking does wonders, btw.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
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Messages
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jeeze, those are some essays there, but i guess your point is somewhat valid...
You "guess" our point is "somewhat valid?" Ok then. And what has your point ever been?

Your most recent posts in this topic:
waiting and standing is a tough strategy to beat apparently : )
we are limiting ourselves, that's a HUGE discomfort it's like eating a juicy burger half speed at ALL TIMES when yur ooberdooper ungry!
cactuar's gonna beat the new 'BEST IN THE WORLD' if he shows up
doing things out of shield is advantageous especially if you've got game&watch with a bucket filled, the opponent will get hit by it sooner or later, that's the way it is

also clai, it doesn't mean you are a noob, just that you are a noob in melee
eternal darkness was amazing, if any of you haven't played it, you really ought to
so there IS a possibility that brawl will have TRUE depth?
no one's gonna patch brawl
Man, you sure are a great contributer to this topic.

gg spammer
 

xXZeroXx

Smash Cadet
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Messages
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You make me laugh, not because of your post counts or join date, but because you haven't said one useful thing (like many others) in this thread.

You have either attacked other posts for no reason or say whats been said already over again (without reading the OP again probably)


Let's go over some things from the OP.



Quoted from OP:
Things Scar is NOT saying that people consistently read somehow

-Melee players should consistently win in Brawl as much as they did in Melee
-Advanced techs make Melee deep
-I hate Brawl
-*whine whine whine*

Compare those two above. And to comment on that 2nd quote above this quote from the OP; everyone knows and everyone is used to the fact that the ATs aren't there.
I know everyone knows AT's aren't there, but I really doubt people are used to it, seriously...


And now for something completely different:


They don't get enough discussion because they're only borderline useful, if that.

We aren't learning techs because there aren't any useful techs. Why bother to learn semi-useful techs when you can just shield camp and infinite chainthrow?


You're Responses to statements such as those underlined above:




You didn't give a single good reason why, you just use a scapegoat of more ATs being yet to be discovered and eventually some other people will find a useful one. In otherwords, you're saying that Brawl needs more time, which we have already gone over time and time again, that is not the issue we are discussing. Not only that, we've already gone over that ATs aren't the major aspect that add to a game's deepness.

What's funny is that most of the metagame that most people on the boards have come to accept and already know about isn't absorbing through your skull. You constantly retaliate about people giving up and making the game unfun, yet you yourself haven't given any solid facts about why, or let alone have made any effort in breaking the game.

It is like you are in denial that most of the game has been figured out, and can't accept the simpleness involved in Brawl's tournament play.

Lurking does wonders, btw.

How about that:

I still see more experience is needed in this game to be better than others. I think we even need more mind games that what Melee had (it was fast enough to not even think about enemies space).

Talking about Brawl techniques, seems like every new discover stills doesn't change the diffrence (the balance you were tlaking about) between pros and newbies. Refering to that, I had to say that the first time I played Brawl (and even some days after) I played like if I didn't know anything about Smash Bros, not because I wanted it to be like that but because the game forced me to be bad. So I think that's the problem here (and everywhere), we still don't know how to play SSBB. We have to get used to the fact that those considered advanced techniques are NOT here again. But it seems for some players that made the game no competitive and even casual.

I just wanted to point out that the game can be even more competitive than Melee thanks to ATs not brought back. Seems pretty stupid comments like "whatever you do won't work, because then you'll encounter MK or Snake", like if they abandoned the game just because they were beaten by some OP characters...
Still you may find it pretty useless, but sure it's "something".

Yet you say that's not what you are talking about, but I was answering to leafgreen... And it was in TOPIC of the post he sent.

And yes, Brawl needs more time. NOBODY was a pro in Melee in the firsts months, whatever you say. Do you really think people will play just like now in tournaments (LOL, if that can be named brawl tournaments...) in...4 years?.

It is like you are in denial that most of the game has been figured out, and can't accept the simpleness involved in Brawl's tournament play.
So that's all? Don't you think that's a pessimistic way of seeing Brawl?
 

xXZeroXx

Smash Cadet
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Messages
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Zero, you should have read the thread. Also, I couldn't understand what you said because your sentence structure and choice of words were poor... you should have said something like "with that mindset going in you're not likely to find anything", not "my mood won't pull it out". My mood isn't the thing looking for the techs, it's my mind. And I figured that you couldn't be saying the SAME THING that's been said by every noob in this thread, could you?
Now thatI see two post saying the same, I wonder: Everyone who's defending Brawl (with one reason or another) is a noob? Just because I don't think the same way you do? What if I hate Melee AT's and I see a real fighting game in Brawl, does it makes me a noob instantly?
Ah, and sorry for the choice of words, I didn't realise it.

Well leafgreen did a good job of explaining the gist of the argument to you. I would've been more harsh, but props to him for his patience. And my answer to the original post was quite clear, if you're not a noob (or you READ THE THREAD). I gave good reasons, maybe you're the one with the reading comprehension problem. Also corey already ripped you for being a noob (it's obvious, and not because of your registration date)
A noob why? I really wanna see your proofs about that.


so I don't really have to do that anymore either. He also answered your question as to why what I said makes sense, but you chose to ignore it. Btw, we can't just "make mindgames" for Brawl, as you suggest (when you said that we need more mindgames), we're limited by the physics engine. Mindgames requires options to allow you to use your creativity, and there simply aren't that many viable options.
And, again, why cannot you be creative in Brawl, because your enemie can air dodge while you are still laggin your last attack? From outside, it seems pretty childish...

I find it hilarious that you think the comment about not getting better and not playing seriously applies to me... who are you to question me? How many tourneys have you been in buddy? Did you even play Melee? Obviously you don't know what it takes for a game to have a competitive scene if you think Brawl can be more competitive than Melee, and it's laughable that you don't understand the comments about MK and Snake.
It applies to you in the post I quoted (the first I quoted from you), where you said you can just do chainthrow and something more I don't remember, where you answered ironically about things we can do in Brawl. Where pretty much seems you abandoned all oportunity to improve the player winning chances. Yes, I played Melee, since 2002. I went to some tournaments, but I'm sorry I couldn't go to US to play your SUPER IMPORTANT-ONLY ONES WORTH tournaments. And I understand comments about MK and Snake, it's you who cannot see a way to beat them...

It's not a bad game if you don't care about the outcomes, but horrible if you do. I personally play to win, and this game, thus far, boils down to two or three characters and possibly some specific counterpicks... that's lame
Love it, how many there were in Melee, 4, 5 characters for tourneys? Do anyone played with Bowser or Mewtwo?

Especially when you consider all the other flaws in the game. Easy infinites, slow gameplay, no hitlag, no offense, overpowered shield, shallow learning curve, spam happiness, gimped edgegame, few options, limited movement, REPETITION, TRIPPING, ridiculous sweetspots, multi/whenever airdodges, and generally annoying tactics beings superior = not a fun game for a competitive mindset.

Did I elaborate for you enough Zero? Or are you so upset that we all think you're a noob that you can't get over it and just react emotionally?
You elaborated a harsh answer to me, not much more tbh.
 

Zankoku

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Now thatI see two post saying the same, I wonder: Everyone who's defending Brawl (with one reason or another) is a noob? Just because I don't think the same way you do? What if I hate Melee AT's and I see a real fighting game in Brawl, does it makes me a noob instantly?
Ah, and sorry for the choice of words, I didn't realise it.
Hating Melee AT's doesn't make you a noob, but it's not like Melee AT's were what made Melee a great game.

And, again, why cannot you be creative in Brawl, because your enemie can air dodge while you are still laggin your last attack? From outside, it seems pretty childish...
Because your opponent can do ANYTHING including an air-dodge. Your opponent will always have the time advantage because he can do something before you can reach him.

Love it, how many there were in Melee, 4, 5 characters for tourneys? Do anyone played with Bowser or Mewtwo?
Yes and yes, actually. How about you? Do you see anyone in Brawl going far with Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Yoshi, or Pokemon Trainer?
 

NoVaLombardia

Smash Journeyman
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xXZeroXx said:
So that's all? Don't you think that's a pessimistic way of seeing Brawl?
Based on what we were given, the people have made countless discoveries on semi-useful techniques which have no real use in the tournament scene, save for RARing.

And to your answer that Brawl needs more time before we can discuss this intelligently? No, it doesn't, and the OP explains in well enough detail why. You keep commenting on people's post as if they don't read the OP, but neither do you.

Pessimistic? Absolutely not. Realistic? Definitely.

Sakurai has INTENTIONALLY made the game very shallow in order to prevent people breaking the game. Because of which, we have a larger advantage gap in the tier list where characters such as falcon and most of the low tiers, if not the mid-tiers as well, have no chance in tournament play whatsoever.

He gave us lemons in Melee, and we made exquisite lemonade.
Knowing this, he purposely gives us oranges for Brawl while we try to make lemonade out of it.

There are 10 times the amount of people on the boards now than there were back then for Melee, and the number is still growing to this very day. On a mathmatical sense, one would think Brawl would be broken in 10 times as fast, no?

Just because it is a different game, doesn't mean it takes any longer to learn how to play anyway. You take previous knowledge from previous games and use it in the new game, minus the ATs. Any potential ATs that are discovered in a game's mechanics are then adopted to the player's style in accordance with the previous styles of play.

Here's and example: CS 1.6 to Source... Or any patches to the game at all that changed the gameplay slightly.
Different aiming system, different power on the weapons, etc. But the basics still stayed the same. Don't be close range against a shotgun, watch out for AWPs, walking makes you unable to be heard, knowing safe distances before map chokepoints start up pressure, headshots do more damage, etc. Any new ATs that were discovered in the game were adopted by the players as a bonus to the basic style of play.

Another example: WoW 40-man raids to 25-man raids
Arrival of paladins to horde or shamans to alliance, creating new raiding styles. All the basics still stayed the same. Spread out for chaining attacks. Avoid this, avoid that, warriors tank this. Oh look, new talents create whole new sub-classes that are useful in raids that weren't previously (aka shadowpriests, druid tanks, paladins tanks, warlock tanks, etc). The very first raids were considered hard, but now even the new ones are considered so easy, because the skill level of the whole community constantly increases. But WoW is too easy anyway, so that was probably a bad example. Nonetheless, it is still getting the point across.

I could point out many more examples. But the point was, even if there are sequels to the game and the styles of play differ from each other, but as long as the basic mechanics still exist from one version of the game to another, the collective skill of the community still grows stronger. Assuming you could put a value in for skill level: Just because you have a 50-skill in Melee doesn't mean you go down to 0 in SSBB. You may falter down to 45, but that quickly is made up after getting used to the new system, and you continue to grow.

Not pessimistic at all, just realistic.

You can't make lemonade with oranges.
 

thumbswayup

Smash Master
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wars not make one great
Wait for it...




Without waxing too much intelligence, allow me to make a quick (nerdy) analogy to solidify arrowhead's comment.

I'm sure you guys remember the very first Lord of the Rings movie, right? Y'know, the one scene were Bilbo invites Gandalf into his little Hobbit home for some tea and biscuits? Well, imagine this just for a minute. Put yourself in Gandalf's shoes while he was standing inside of the Hobbit house. Mother****er was grazing the ceiling with the back of his head the whole **** time, barely able to get around. Imagine, if you will, that Gandalf is an extension of yourself and is the player (you) sitting in front of the Wii playing Brawl. Now think of the stifling Hobbit house as Brawl and its mechanics.

Suppose in this scenario that Bilbo asks Gandalf (you, the player) to perform a simple action like jumping. Well, you try to jump and you succeed in doing so, but you realize that you succeed in bashing the back of your ****ing head against the ceiling. This is highly uncomfortable and causes (obvious) pain. The Hobbit house wasn't designed for you in mind; it was designed for all of the other little guys that run around the Shire.

And so it is with Brawl. Elements like tripping, lack of hitstun, and auto-sweetspotting are just a few of the many things Sakurai and Company implemented to keep Brawl's threshold of advanced play really, really low. It is the proverbial ceiling that Gandalf will keep banging his head off of, regardless of how hard he tries to push the game.

I say this: Brawl was worth the fifty bucks I paid for it. But is it as deep, as robust, and as competitive as Melee?

No.

Smooth Criminal
LMAO Smooth, what a great analogy.
 

NoVaLombardia

Smash Journeyman
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Love it, how many there were in Melee, 4, 5 characters for tourneys? Do anyone played with Bowser or Mewtwo?
Let's take a look shall we?

Quoted from Eggm for EPIC TRUTH

Here's a list from a larger Brawl Tournament
Eggm said:
Brawl has like. Snake and MK. Then extraordinary DDD's/DK's may have a chance as well.

1: Cort ($435.60) (Snake)
2: PC Chris ($237.60) (Snake)
3: Nuro ($118.80) (Snake)
4: Jinx (Metaknight)
5: Solid Jake (Snake)
5: Darc (Snake)

1: Chillindude829 (D3, Snake)
2: Forte (Metaknight)
3: Azen Zagenite (ROB)
4: LoZR (Wario)
5: Kirbstir (Metaknight)
5: NC-Echo (olimar)
7: Candy (wolf)
7: Mulligan (snake fox)
9: K-9 (wolf)
9: Meep (marth)
9: Gonzo (kirby, ROB)
9: g-reg (snake wario)

These were both huge recent brawl tournaments with a high level of competition. Lets look at the chars in the last few big competition melee tournaments.

1. Mango - Jigglypuff
2. M2k - Marth
3. PC Chris - Fox
4. Cort - Peach
5: Chu - IC"s
5: Vidjo - Peach
7: Azen - Marth/fox
7: Darkrain - Falcon
9: Hax - Falcon
9: Forward - Falco
9: HugS - Samus

1: HugS - Samus
2: Ka Master - Luigi
3: Zhu - Falco
4: SilentSpectre - Falcon
5: DEHF - Not sure LOL
5: Mango - Jigglypuff
7: DSF - Sheik
7: Falcomist - Falco
9: BoA - Marth
9: Gimpyfish62 - Bowser
Take a good look at that list.

And yes Smooth Criminal, that was as smooth as it comes.
 

bovineblitzkrieg

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Love it, how many there were in Melee, 4, 5 characters for tourneys? Do anyone played with Bowser or Mewtwo?
Actually, yes, I do. I play a mean Mewtwo who's not scared of anyone but spacies.

And you've never seen a Bowser counterpick against fox? Ever see a sick pika, a great ganon, a luigi, ICs, how bout even a mario or a game & watch?

It's certainly possible for more characters to do well, MUCH more so than in Brawl. AND, even if it was completely limited to the 4 or 5 "top" characters, 4 or 5 is much better than 2 or 3.
 

FalconPunch

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Brawl is gay, but in live in DC
^Yea. I'm starting to think we may never see those famous people like Bum, Neo, Germ, Ka-Master, Renth etc. doing well with non-top tier characters in Brawl. I honestly don't think we'll ever see an amazing CF or Yoshi.
 

xXZeroXx

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Then, to put things clear, will you guys play Brawl from now on? I mean, Brawl it's soooo bad that you won't play it anymore?.

Bovine, there were a Bowser in the 9th position, but, still, it doesn't mean he will ever be in the top 3. And it was as an answer to your 2 or 3 top characters in Brawl. There will be always best characters in a game. But, as in Melee, if you like, for example, Donkey Kong, why won't you control it? Because it's harder to win? Then, there's only one thing you can do, play smarter.
 

NoVaLombardia

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Then, to put things clear, will you guys play Brawl from now on? I mean, Brawl it's soooo bad that you won't play it anymore?.
Scar said:
Most people who are "anti-Brawl" play it and have fun with it.

Most people who are "anti-Brawl" and good at Melee are also good at Brawl.

No one who is "anti-Brawl" is telling you not to play the game.
Again, didn't read the OP

All those apply to me, except for teh middle one,
I BLOW BALLS at melee, but im good at Brawl, however i like Melee like 10927318924186x times better.
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

Smash Lord
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Slowly starting to enjoy my mothertongue again. :)
Wait for it...




Without waxing too much intelligence, allow me to make a quick (nerdy) analogy to solidify arrowhead's comment.

I'm sure you guys remember the very first Lord of the Rings movie, right? Y'know, the one scene were Bilbo invites Gandalf into his little Hobbit home for some tea and biscuits? Well, imagine this just for a minute. Put yourself in Gandalf's shoes while he was standing inside of the Hobbit house. Mother****er was grazing the ceiling with the back of his head the whole **** time, barely able to get around. Imagine, if you will, that Gandalf is an extension of yourself and is the player (you) sitting in front of the Wii playing Brawl. Now think of the stifling Hobbit house as Brawl and its mechanics.

Suppose in this scenario that Bilbo asks Gandalf (you, the player) to perform a simple action like jumping. Well, you try to jump and you succeed in doing so, but you realize that you succeed in bashing the back of your ****ing head against the ceiling. This is highly uncomfortable and causes (obvious) pain. The Hobbit house wasn't designed for you in mind; it was designed for all of the other little guys that run around the Shire.

And so it is with Brawl. Elements like tripping, lack of hitstun, and auto-sweetspotting are just a few of the many things Sakurai and Company implemented to keep Brawl's threshold of advanced play really, really low. It is the proverbial ceiling that Gandalf will keep banging his head off of, regardless of how hard he tries to push the game.

I say this: Brawl was worth the fifty bucks I paid for it. But is it as deep, as robust, and as competitive as Melee?

No.

Smooth Criminal
OMFG, I love you so much. LotR is my life and soul, that analogy is tooooooo good.
 

xXZeroXx

Smash Cadet
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Messages
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Location
Europe, Germany
Now I remember you talking about numbers. You said something like there were like 10 times more people "testing" Brawl since it was released in the forums. Now, there are 6 million copies sold around the world (and it has to be released in Europe yet), only 115,979 are in this forum. Even if all of us thinks Brawl has no competitiveness as Melee had, it would be less than 3% overall (though it's still too much for a forum). Now, should Sakurai care about that minimal percent? Wich means,:what is more important, to ask to petitions of that minimal percent or release a game wich can be both played by casual and hardcore? I don't really know if I explained it ok.

And, one more thing, you are always saying OP, OP, OP, OP, I READ IT THE FIRST TIME I WROTE IN THIS THREAD. So yes, I know the average opinion of Brawl "complainers", BUT, it doesn't apply for all, as you said, you are not in the 2nd statement, so it's better to ask.
 
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