Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Dark Sonic]

You realize that he could've easily pleased that 3% just by leaving in the stuff from melee (which was actually in the demo btw) and leaving in hitstun in general. He would've, in fact, made a lot more money. Here's why.

Casual players will always by a game when it's hyped up. And there's not much more hype than at the initial release of a game. However, what happens after that? Who is it that keeps a game running strong 7 years later? The competative fanbase, that's who! People see those random videos on youtube, or hear about this one guy that won a big tournament, or get beaten by this one great player at school, and suddenly they're interested in this game that's already really old. So in the long run, Nintendo actually would make more money if they bothered to pay attention to that 3% that you are talking about. Right now they are just running on the mega hype that brawl got and the large number of Wiis that had already been sold.

It's also obvious that you don't know melee very well, or you'd realize the flaw in your statement "or release a game which can be both played by casual and hardcore?" That's exactly what melee was! And yet they decided to take the "hardcore" part out for no other reason than to let the lesser skilled players win more. Do you not see the problem with that logic?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

He's getting at that LOTR is amazing .

They're also filming the Hobbit, in case you didn't know. I think it's scheduled to be released 2010. Pretty pimp.

 

[thumbswayup]

This is very true. I didn't enter the melee competitive scene until early 2007 for a game that was 6 years old at the time. I entered because my friends and I randomly decided to play Melee one boring summer day in 2006. It was exhilarating (even with us not knowing ANYTHING about the game).

Eventually we discovered vids on youtube of ken's marth and isai's falcon. We became hooked. We played more and more, and finally attended a smashfest in jan 07 where we STILL didn't L-cancel or wavedash. It was still mad fun, despite almost always getting four stocked.

I began watching every vid of melee I could find, and practicing every combo I could. Many, many months later I finally could execute much of what I was practicing. I started wavedashing and L-canceling consistently, even comboing my opponent. There is no greater feeling when you see yourself doing things you thought impossible months before.. That's something I always say, and something Brawl will never provide.

I was the most hopeless Melee player you could find. I thought I would never be able to wavedash. I now do it seemlessly. Not only that, but there's a whole new level to the game after you master L-cancel and wavedash and that's comboing. You have to be very good to consistently combo, especially 0-death ones. Everytime I play it I do something new, or pull off something faster. Melee never ceases giving me this feeling when I play. There is always something new to learn in Melee.

Then there's Brawl. I'm already very good at Brawl, without really even trying. This is because the game is so dumbed down and insanely simple, it takes literally minutes to learn the "Advanced Techniques" of this game. I could do Snake's mortar slide on my third try and I don't even use Snake. Glide tossing with Diddy took me 5 mintues to learn. Everything in this game in maddeningly easy and it drives me nuts.

I wish everday that I had known about competitive Melee earlier.

 

[thumbswayup]

They're also filming the Hobbit, in case you didn't know. I think it's scheduled to be released 2010. Pretty pimp.

Actually they're filming two movies for the Hobbit. The sequel will come out a year after the first just like LOTR did. I can't wait for either, although I'll be very mad if it isn't Jackson directing. I think I read somewhere he isn't doing it (I could be wrong).

 

[Demon Kirby]

OMFG, I love you so much. LotR is my life and soul, that analogy is tooooooo good.

Same >_>

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4516336#post4516336

Spoiler

Except it isn't really my favorite series of books

I think I read somewhere he isn't doing it (I could be wrong).

Please be wrong.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Then, to put things clear, will you guys play Brawl from now on? I mean, Brawl it's soooo bad that you won't play it anymore?.

Bovine, there were a Bowser in the 9th position, but, still, it doesn't mean he will ever be in the top 3. And it was as an answer to your 2 or 3 top characters in Brawl. There will be always best characters in a game. But, as in Melee, if you like, for example, Donkey Kong, why won't you control it? Because it's harder to win? Then, there's only one thing you can do, play smarter.

Actually I'm pretty good with DK too, I spent about two months without playing any other character but him. Twas fun, and he's better and quicker than you'd think. GREAT edgegame, great juggler. I generally play him against Marths and for fun. I also play Pichu quite often, btw, and he's not that bad either.

I don't quite understand what you mean "control it"... you mean just be good and win consistently? That's what I'm assuming.

Bowser probably won't be in the top three, but more than half the cast of Melee could be. I don't think that counters the point about 2-3 characters being good in Brawl, because there's a bigger divide between the great and not so great characters in Brawl than in Melee. As you said, you need to play smarter with lesser characters... which you can do in Melee but there's not a lot you can do in Brawl... due to the aforementioned limitations.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I was the most hopeless Melee player you could find. I thought I would never be able to wavedash. I now do it seemlessly. Not only that, but there's a whole new level to the game after you master L-cancel and wavedash and that's comboing. You have to be very good to consistently combo, especially 0-death ones. Everytime I play it I do something new, or pull off something faster. Melee never ceases giving me this feeling when I play. There is always something new to learn in Melee.

So true... it's like being blind and suddenly being granted the ability to see.

 

[xXZeroXx]

Actually I'm pretty good with DK too, I spent about two months without playing any other character but him. Twas fun, and he's better and quicker than you'd think. GREAT edgegame, great juggler. I generally play him against Marths and for fun. I also play Pichu quite often, btw, and he's not that bad either.

I don't quite understand what you mean "control it"... you mean just be good and win consistently? That's what I'm assuming.

Bowser probably won't be in the top three, but more than half the cast of Melee could be. I don't think that counters the point about 2-3 characters being good in Brawl, because there's a bigger divide between the great and not so great characters in Brawl than in Melee. As you said, you need to play smarter with lesser characters... which you can do in Melee but there's not a lot you can do in Brawl... due to the aforementioned limitations.

Yes, I meant that with control it. I just don't believe there's only really three good characters in Brawl. I mean, that tourney was one of the first after the release, does make sense to think everyone will from now on play Snake and MK, just because of that?. Anyway, you didn't answered one question xDD.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

@thumbswayup

i picked up melee about 2 months before brawl came out

and i even saw vids of brawl's gameplay demos at conventions and such, before i knew all the specifics. Just watching the demos made me think, "oh this doesn't look tournament worthy."

I still suck at melee, but i love it. I'm getting mildly technical at it, but i still blow at getting in the first hit, and reading DI.

I come from a background of FPS and RPGs, those are where my real strengths are at. Seeing how this is my first fighting game i really got hardcore into i shouldn't be upset that i'd not be doing so well, but still.

If someone can come from a history of one type of games and instantly be switched over to fighting games and a game that's been out for 7 years on a freakin GameCube, its gotta be really deep and well made for competitive play (even though that wasn't the intention).

@zero

I'm pretty sure you said that about 2 times before this post. The thing about "not believing there's only 3 good characters in Brawl." Why? How? Prove it! You haven't explained why or how at all yet.

 

[thumbswayup]

Keep practicing Nova, you'll get there soon. It can be frustrating, but it's never boring. I still have much to learn as well, and I'll continue playing Melee because I love it so much.

The moment I got into competitive Melee, I pointed out to everyone that Brawl would suck, because how could it possibly live up to the greatness of its predecessor? 99% of people I told this to disagreed with me. I even remember Fonz saying to me, "Brawl looks amazing", the day before pound 3. How I hate that I was right all this time. I wish Brawl had never come out (or at least didn't suck so much).

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Yes, I meant that with control it. I just don't believe there's only really three good characters in Brawl. I mean, that tourney was one of the first after the release, does make sense to think everyone will from now on play Snake and MK, just because of that?. Anyway, you didn't answered one question xDD.

Oh yeah, I kinda missed that one.

I'll play Brawl on occasion, but not all that much. For me, it's just not that fun. It's like knowing how to fly an F-22 in an intense dogfight but being limited to flying a commercial airliner... I just want to do more! I want more action, more excitement, more options, more speed... more fun...

I don't get that rising feeling in the pit of my stomach from an intense Brawl match, and it'll never make me sweat or even just shout out "OHHHHHHH SICK"... so basically, to answer your question, no I won't be playing Brawl very much.

 

[LP4Life666]

While I do not consider myself an advocate of either Melee or Brawl's level of competitiveness, I do believe that each game has it's own strengths that it does better than the other. When I first picked up Melee, I believed that the game was solely for party play and overlooked the true deepness behind the combat system (though back then, however, Wavedashing and more mature advanced techniques were still being discovered and mastered). However, after being mercilessly slaughtered by a select few, many of whom are still modern day rivals, I knew that I was horribly wrong about the game. That's when I realized that Smash Bros. was not inferior to other fighting games (such as Soul Calibur or Virtua Fighter), but simply different in game mechanics. I feel that way about Melee and Brawl because it's not that one is inferior to the other, but different. Based on my personal experience, each of the two Smash games cater to their own strengths.

On one hand, Brawl is the more diverse of the two. I've challenged many people on 1v1 matches and have not fought the same character twice in a row. Everyone uses a different fighter and finds a way to easily compete with my Snake. No one person with the same level of skill has completely failed to compete with me. However, Brawl's advanced techniques, as many of you already argued, is lacking in comparison to Melee's and is more accessible to even the most inexperienced of Smashers. Therefore, one could argue that Melee is more competitive because of the learning curve in it's advanced maneuvers.

So would that make Brawl's level of competitive play inferior to that of Melee's? In my humble opinion, absolutely not. In Brawl, any one person can pick any character and be able to compete (assuming they are on the same level, of course). In fact, I believe that Brawl's lack in advanced maneuvers have even leveled the playing field for more players and more characters. I do not know the general consensus on this, but I am absolutely sick and tired of tournament/higher level play consisting of Marth, Fox, and Falco. In Brawl, we are no longer subjected to the same three, not to mention boring, high-tier characters. Therefore, one could argue that Brawl, while being less competitive in nature due to it's easily executed advanced techniques, is superior to Melee because of it's wider range of viable characters.

So if we were to rip each other's heads off over which Smash game is more competitive, we first must distinguish what each game does something better than the other. I did read Scar's disclaimer about "It's not Melee 2.0, you can't compare the two games", but it is foolish to argue to the superiority of one game without discussing each individual games' strength's first. Again, this is my personal experience and I do not expect anyone to have the same experience as I have had.

Thanks for readin' ^^.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

Thanks for readin' ^^.

Thanks for not reading anything previously already discussed.

Later' ^^.

 

[netch!]

Thanks for not reading anything previously already discussed.

Later' ^^.

he can't voice his opinion?

and sif bother reading >200 pages sifting good posts from bad

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Thanks for not reading anything previously already discussed.

Later' ^^.

Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black...

 

[NoVaLombardia]

my bad i meant disregarding

but i didn't hate on his opinion, go ahead, im more worried about the higher balance of a tier list in Brawl compared to Melee

that's what he disregarded

but that belongs in Yuna's balance thread now doesn't it?

when i participate in debates, i toss away opinions, disregard them and focus on the known facts that have collaborated over the times.

Fact - lack of hitstun and the floatiness of all characters create a weak push and pull punishment game

Fact - the attacker almost always has the disadvantage

Fact - the unbalance of brawl is heavily weighed upon the defensive aspect

Myth / Opinion - Brawl has a higher variety of competitive characters

Myth / Opinion - Melee only had Fox Falco and Marth in competitive play

Unless proved otherwise, my view stays the same about the myths/opinions, thus turning them into facts.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

he can't voice his opinion?

and sif bother reading >200 pages sifting good posts from bad

All he had to do was read the last two pages, not the whole thread.

 

[LP4Life666]

"my bad i meant disregarding

but i didn't hate on his opinion, go ahead, im more worried about the higher balance of a tier list in Brawl compared to Melee

that's what he disregarded

but that belongs in Yuna's balance thread now doesn't it?"

Constructive. Bro you've posted 456 times, you should know by now how these boards get after a lengthy discussion. Occasionally a person jumps in and doesn't always read the other 239 pages worth of threads. So if you have something to say, dont be a ****ing prick and tell me where my post belongs. We already have administrators moving posts around.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

All he had to do was read the last two pages, not the whole thread.

or at least read the highlighted posts at the bottom of the OP

@LPforLIFE

i didn't mean to sound insulting (i guess its just my writing style), but i was actually referring to my statement about balance should be moved to Yuna's thread, and only that paragraph when you compared the two in terms of balance.

also i posted a little too quick, i made an edit to that post.

 

[xXZeroXx]

I'm with LP4Life666. That's exactly what I think (now you asked why I defend that there are more than 3 top characters). In his post is what I think.

Anyway, bovine, you said you'll stick with Melee. Why? It won't do anything good, at least, you won't go to important Melee tournaments anymore. So, what's the point on it?.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I'm with LP4Life666. That's exactly what I think (now you asked why I defend that there are more than 3 top characters). In his post is what I think.

Anyway, bovine, you said you'll stick with Melee. Why? It won't do anything good, at least, you won't go to important Melee tournaments anymore. So, what's the point on it?.

Yeah it'll do lots of good. First, and most importantly, I'll have fun.

Second, Melee tourneys are still alive in some places, and I figure once the Brawl hype wears down there'll be a resurgence in Melee. I honestly don't think Brawl will receive an ounce of the respect that Melee had on the tourney circuit, it just doesn't deserve it. It'd be a shame if Brawl kills the Smash scene.

If it does, then oh well, I suppose it was fun while it lasted. If I'm not having fun, it's not worth getting good at. I'm not a huge fan of traditional fighters and loved how the Smash series mixed it up with %s and stage construction and such, so I'll just stop.

And then I'll curse Sakurai some more. And then move on and play starcraft 2 for my competitive fix (or original starcraft if starcraft 2 is analogous to Brawl). Whenever I get a chance I'll get some Melee in.

 

[LP4Life666]

"Myth / Opinion - Brawl has a higher variety of competitive characters

Myth / Opinion - Melee only had Fox Falco and Marth in competitive play"

I apologize for misinterpreting your initial post, but sometimes when you post something it doesnt always get interpreted the way you intended. Anyway, all is forgiven.

On a side note, I completely agree that my post is not based on actual fact, but merely my OWN opinion and my OWN experience. I even emphasized this on two separate occasions. So basically you can either agree with my opinion or not.

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

Hmm ........as I remember it,

Melee never needed a defense like Brawl currently has. People played the game, not looking for all the techs but rather having fun in finding new ways to compete.

Brawl on the other hand garners a huge defense, however is relatively indefensibile. Given time the game is far more likely to stagnate then advance, could the same have been said for melee ?

Think where all the effort is going. FAR MORE into these sorts of threads !




Also, if you haven't mastered all tech in melee.....then there's no reason to master any tech in brawl.
>>>>>>>>NO JOHNSSSSSS

Pissy little Pussys trying to Pry the life from Melee. How cute.............but seriously back off and continue your eternal slavedom with brawl, i.e. cunnilingus. Have fun sucking !

 

[Koga]

my bad i meant disregarding

but i didn't hate on his opinion, go ahead, im more worried about the higher balance of a tier list in Brawl compared to Melee

that's what he disregarded

but that belongs in Yuna's balance thread now doesn't it?

when i participate in debates, i toss away opinions, disregard them and focus on the known facts that have collaborated over the times.

Fact - lack of hitstun and the floatiness of all characters create a weak push and pull punishment game

Weak? says you. its just fine for me, i prefer a hit for hit game over a"ooo, i got a hit on you now i combo for days and you loose a stock.

that sounds like your opinion, you lose

Fact - the attacker almost always has the disadvantage

true almost always, it becomes more balanced when you use projectiles offensively and space your character properly in the grab happy matchups. but again, some people like it this way, which is fine. Some people like a more offensive game, does that make them right?

Fact - the unbalance of brawl is heavily weighed upon the defensive aspect

Maybe if you only have good defensive players, with all the tournies and games i've played i have yet to run into this problem. But its ok, your expireinces are more valid than mine./sarcasam

Myth / Opinion - Brawl has a higher variety of competitive characters

to be fair, it really only was Fox/falco/marth that won tournies that mattered in melee. Brawl does have more viable characters than that. Even the hailed Snake and MK have imperfect matchups vs alot of characters. as well as far more characters being viable to acctually win a tournament with.

Myth / Opinion - Melee only had Fox Falco and Marth in competitive play

Go look at pro tournies from 2006-2007 and see what players won and what characters they used:

M2K: Marth/Fox
PC Chris: Falco/fox
Ken: Marth/Fox
Azen: Marth

oh yeah, there were tons of characters in the serious levels of play.

Unless proved otherwise, my view stays the same about the myths/opinions, thus turning them into facts.

ITT people who were more sucessful in melee have more valid opinions. Even though opinions are completely personal and you can never have a more valid opinion.


If you don't like melee go to the melee boards, don't waste board space bloviating your opinions as though they are facts.

Brawls different, i like how its different.

@curious thoughts bear.

Pry the life from melee? yeah cause those boards are teeming with vibrant discussion!


the reason we have to defend brawl is because most of the opponents of brawl are leaders in our community and have influence over the community, they can acctually effect the scene. If it was just some normal posters than no one would care that much, but its the Back roomers and mods that oppose even respecting brawl and thats why its dangerous for our community.

With melee's failing scene and all the community leaders bashing brawl, we could have a disaterous future for smash, all because some people think that there expireince makes their opinions more valid.

 

[Dark Sonic]

to be fair, it really only was Fox/falco/marth that won tournies that mattered in melee. Brawl does have more viable characters than that. Even the hailed Snake and MK have imperfect matchups vs alot of characters. as well as far more characters being viable to acctually win a tournament with.

Mango won Pound 3 as Jigglypuff. Samus, Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon, and Peach have also all placed really high in tournaments.

Go look at pro tournies from 2006-2007 and see what players won and what characters they used:

M2K: Marth/Fox
PC Chris: Falco/fox
Ken: Marth/Fox
Azen: Marth

Go look at pro brawl tournaments and see what characters are winning.
Snake and Metaknight. So technically, melee had more character diversity than brawl, despite having less characters. Go figure.

Weak? says you. its just fine for me, i prefer a hit for hit game over a"ooo, i got a hit on you now i combo for days and you loose a stock.

The problem is that it's only a hit by hit system after you break through their defenses. After you do all that work to get around their safe moves (such as projectile spams, shield camping, ect.) then your reward is that you now get to engage in a trade of hits with your opponent. This makes the defensive system overpowered.

true almost always, it becomes more balanced when you use projectiles offensively and space your character properly in the grab happy matchups. but again, some people like it this way, which is fine.

So your counter to playing against defensive opponents is to play even more defensive. Too bad that not all characters can do this right. And shield grabbing is the least of our worries. Grabs suck. The problem is when shield hit stun and shield drop lag are so low that they can actually smash you when they shield an aerial. Once again, the defense is overpowered. Of course you like brawl better, because it specifically caters to your prefered style above all others. That's an imbalanced game engine.

Some people like a more offensive game, does that make them right?

And some people like picking their own style and still having a chance of winning in tournaments. To bad the game won't let them do that.

Maybe if you only have good defensive players, with all the tournies and games i've played i have yet to run into this problem. But its ok, your expireinces are more valid than mine./sarcasam

Or maybe dropping a shield in less than 5 frames and having about as much shield stun really is overpowered? And wake up. There really are opinions that are more valid than others. A physics proffesor's opinion in the field of physics does carry more weight than the average person. A person that's been playing competative smash for 7 years does have a more valid opinion than yours.

the reason we have to defend brawl is because most of the opponents of brawl are leaders in our community and have influence over the community, they can acctually effect the scene. If it was just some normal posters than no one would care that much, but its the Back roomers and mods that oppose even respecting brawl and thats why its dangerous for our community.

I wonder why the people that have been playing more games competatively for much longer than any of us would have any gripes with brawl. Hmm....I wonder why they keep making these comparisons between our community and other gaming communitites. Maybe because it's happened before. It happened with Tekken, they realized Tekken 4 sucked balls, they went back to Tekken 3, and then moved on to Tekken 5 later. It happened with Soul Calibur, they put their faith in 3, it turned out to be crap, and the community died. It's not like this is anything new, or like our community is special.

 

[Pink Reaper]

To everyone who says Melee is SOOOO unbalanced and that Pro's only used top tiers, I give you, these vids:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EUrFSf190PU Ken Vs. Chu
http://youtube.com/watch?v=V-6Gxhes7lU&feature=related Chu Vs. Azen
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7K2v41rh9oE&feature=related Dire Vs. M2K
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mIn_75tOzVI Isai Vs. Bum

I'd link more but now Im too busy watching Bum vids >_> Also, these matches are all the FINALS of different tournaments, including MLG.

Edit: Lol, we have a winner http://youtube.com/watch?v=T1BJcdrKAbk

 

[LOL_Master]

those vids are old, but i guess it kinda backs up the argument about only using top tiers, the thing is...they'll beat people that aren't pros with most of the chars and they'll **** noobs with ALL the chars

 

[Pink Reaper]

Yeah, but I figured if I didn't use at least semi-old vids I'd get the whole "Those people don't play as much anymore so it doesn't count" thing I got about 100 pages back.

 

[Aesir]

Lol koga is funny, who cares about 06/07? seriously that was when the meta game was going through a shift, that was the time when m2k was beginning to **** and everyone was like "WHAT?" lol


The fact remains that theres more tourney viable characters in melee then there are in brawl, which is really sad to say the least. Because Brawl is a new a game, so character gaps shouldn't be as apparent now, but they are.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

koga is also funny because he pretty much is trying to prove actual facts, false.

as well as not reading a few parts from the OP, and repeating things that have already been discussed and dealt with and not moving on to a different topic.

Also, this was said before already, but even if there weren't more than fox falco marth and sheik. Guess what? 4 chars > 2 chars (MK and Snake). So yeah.

The fact and myth points i listed (which aren't even scratching the actual list) have all been discussed before, and im just bringing it back closer to the ending pages in the thread so people don't have to try to sift through posts. Basically im constantly reminding people of things already discussed and dealt with.

BTW Pink Reaper, i watched that Bum vid like 10 times, and Chu's pichu vid was epic win.

 

[Fletch]

Wow, I had never seen that match of Chu's Pichu before beating Plairnkk's Sheik... seriously, what the hell, he even SDed and beat Sheik with Pichu, and Plairnkk is an awesome Sheik... crazy.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Thats KDJ dude, not Chu/

 

[sgt. fuzz]

Ok, who cares which is a better game. There aren't going to be many major melee tourney's at all, so you can sit in you basement with your two best buds and play melee forever. Good for you. Brawl, however, has nothing to do but grow and there are tons of tourney's out there now. If you don't like it, just don't play it. You don't have to make everyone feel bad about liking a game. If you want to continue to play smash competitively, you have to play brawl.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Georgia's Greatest Melee tournament and FAST 1 say hello.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

Ok, who cares which is a better game. There aren't going to be many major melee tourney's at all, so you can sit in you basement with your two best buds and play melee forever. Good for you. Brawl, however, has nothing to do but grow and there are tons of tourney's out there now. If you don't like it, just don't play it. You don't have to make everyone feel bad about liking a game. If you want to continue to play smash competitively, you have to play brawl.

again, doesn't read much in the forums...

I believe Georgia's Melee Tournament has over 100 pre-registered people? And keep in mind that's only pre-registration. And i think im underestimating by a large number.

Let's see what else... Smashtality IV coming up? Oh and lets not for get the Tunes Tourney this saturday. And thats all on the east coast. Imagine in other places?

 

[Plairnkk]

Wow, I had never seen that match of Chu's Pichu before beating Plairnkk's Sheik... seriously, what the hell, he even SDed and beat Sheik with Pichu, and Plairnkk is an awesome Sheik... crazy.

No, it's chu.

But look at the date the vid was posted. I started playing in March 06... I had only been playing like 6 months lol, the only char chu beats me with now, or in the past like year is icies. LOL

 

[Scar]

Yeah, there are tons of Melee tournaments, and I'd also disagree with the quote that "Brawl has nothing to do but grow." It's growing alright, but nowhere good or at all impressive.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Oh it was chu? Coulda sworn that was KDJ but whatever.....NO JOHNS PLANK

Edit: Scar, why are you not on aim telling me how amazing my Falcon is right now?

 

[Plairnkk]

i dont need johns, ill just flaunt the wad of $400 cash chu has given me in various mms over the years

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ok, who cares which is a better game. There aren't going to be many major melee tourney's at all, so you can sit in you basement with your two best buds and play melee forever. Good for you. Brawl, however, has nothing to do but grow and there are tons of tourney's out there now. If you don't like it, just don't play it. You don't have to make everyone feel bad about liking a game. If you want to continue to play smash competitively, you have to play brawl.

Please take a gander at my signature and know just how much of a ****** you are.

>.>;

And besides, we're not trying to make people feel bad for liking a video game. Some members of the community believe that Brawl just isn't on the same page as Melee, competitively-speaking. Are you trying to make US feel guilty for expressing our views?

AND SCAR, I want a hot dog match with you at the GA tourney. GA's worst Sheik versus your Pink Falcon. Winners gets a hot dog.

Edit: Over 150 people pre-regged for the GA tourney ALONE, Fuzzy. We got people coming all the way from Canada, California, Washington (state), and Connecticut.

Melee is not going anywhere anytime soon.

Smooth Criminal