Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Rhubarbo]

Well this is what i think. Since Brawl has only been out 2-3 months total. And melee...About 7 years...
Now compare the 2. Melee, In my choice is more compettive for some odd reason, Brawl is not so far behind melee. It will catch up as you know. Give it 1-10 months or acople years and itll be more compettive then melee. Also, It may be because of more characters? More stages? Or just something that makes it less compettive.

Yes, because in a few months the physics of the game will change! Look, the reason many people prefer Brawl over Melee is because they played Melee casually. By casually, I mean never got really good at it. So, transitioning to Brawl meant nothing for you, it was the same thing. However, for those of us that did become good, it feels like we're limited to playing like noobs in Brawl.

Either way, Brawl will dominate the tournamanet scene, and I guess that's okay. Brawl is a very good game, and I can certainly adapt to a simpler game.

 

[LOL_Master]

we are limiting ourselves, that's a HUGE discomfort it's like eating a juicy burger half speed at ALL TIMES when yur ooberdooper ungry!

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

@ Olink for saying Brawl is a enhanced verison of Melee.

No, never, sorry, GG

 

[Cactuar]

Well this is what i think. Since Brawl has only been out 2-3 months total. And melee...About 7 years...
Now compare the 2. Melee, In my choice is more compettive for some odd reason, Brawl is not so far behind melee. It will catch up as you know. Give it 1-10 months or acople years and itll be more compettive then melee. Also, It may be because of more characters? More stages? Or just something that makes it less compettive. And ALSO!!!

Brawl and melee are completly diferrent games. (not to much but you get the idea)
As SSB with melee, Melee is an enhanced version of SSB as with Brawl is a enhanced version of melee(You can say it is some. Or something) Well thats sorta my opion of the smash series.

It may be something but there might be 100's of reasons why melee is more compettive, Or their may only be 1 reason. We Just have to find what makes melee more comppetive. I think its just because its been 7 years since melee has been out. And we just arent fully converted to brawl from melee(Dunno why i said that) But yea. It may because we played melee alot more.(Thats for some) Or something we dont know.

This post is incredibly poorly worded and lacks a definitive point.

We have already covered that the topic is not dependent on the amount of time either game has been out. You are repeating useless information that others have already stated and we have already disproved or struck down as being useless.

Melee is a more competitive game because it has an incredibly well balanced push and pull vs punishment game. It is fast paced, engaging the individual's reflexes and forcing them to think quickly in an intense situation. Melee can work a person into an adrenaline rush. Brawl is so slow and boring that even in a close tournament match, I have never felt anything even close to that feeling. Brawl is not fun to play competitively and it is terrible from a spectator's point of view because of its slow pace and lack of balance in punishment.

Edit: Sorry about sounding somewhat insulting. Not my intention at all. Please try and make future posts a bit more solid.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Cactuar its alright to voice your thoughts and all but to call Brawl boring and slow and dull and many other things it just too far.

 

[Cactuar]

Xzax, you are not my peer in skill level or analysis ability. It is not your place to make that kind of statement towards me.

Brawl is boring and slow and dull ^^^when compared to melee^^^. To an individual who has not experienced the prior game and is not used to the much more intuitive mechanics and far more complex punishment game, they will not find Brawl as boring or slow, but to most veteran players of the Smash series, it is. I am not going to far because I am only stating my expert opinion on the matter in a direct comparison with Melee. There is no line to cross in calling Brawl boring. I don't hate Brawl, it just isn't entertaining in any way to me, being a veteran of the Smash scene.

 

[DarkDragoon]

>.> Brawl has even managed to bore the Non-vets.
We would play Melee pretty consistently everyday after school, at the Gaming Club, that is.
We were exited for Brawl, so when I brought it in, we were like "YEAAA!"
Then, after 4 or 5 days, everyone just wanted to play Melee again.

I mean, I'm still hearing from some of them about how Roy is better than Marth, who, after I trounce them, decide to settle with "Well, they're pretty much equal."

Maybe it was because the matches are slower, or because nothing was really that interesting in terms of what just happened on screen, but these guys are the scrubbiest of the scrubs, so basic things like combos and sweet kills and not camping an entire 4 player FFA match appeals to them. This was Sakurai's intended audience, so why is it that they are not amused either?!

/Maybe/ Its because I've been turning one item a day off on them, and keeping only Neutral stages on random, while punching the fool that always chooses Corneria, slowly brainwashing them all into competitive smash. Maybe its because they enjoy being able to do neat things like throws followed by aerials, or attacking without fear of being hit between attacks, or not get chain grabbed across the stage by DeDeDe who only has to running grab forward to keep it going.

It could be one thing, it could be any number of things. All I know is that now when ever someone mentions Brawl in there, there is usually a chorus of sighs and glares at the person suggesting we play it.
-DD

 

[chansen]

Xzax, you are not my peer in skill level or analysis ability. It is not your place to make that kind of statement towards me.

Look at the balls on this guy.

Brawl is for kids.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Chasen go on the AllisBrawl chat room i dare you. www.allisbrawl.com/

 

[DOCTORSTUPID]

hm questionable comments

 

[Corigames]

To all non-SWF smashers

Why would someone need to go to a lesser site to continue an already worthless conversation/argument?

If you have something to say, say it here. Or, if you were trying to get him to talk to other people from other sites, let me instead:

Your site isn't as good as this one. There may be a lot of spam, but there are plenty of pros, experts, analysts, video makers, new people, old people, hardcore melee, brawl, and 64 fans, and we aren't afraid to grit our teeth. We are the ultimate smash site. If there is one amongst us who partakes in several sites, he is not truly amongst us and will be spat out. Your site is not as good as ours. Your site is not comparable to ours. Join here or don't play. End of discussion.

If you feel like it, post this link to whatever forum, crappy news site, or pathetic gaming discussion you feel like --- http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4500149&postcount=3491

 

[RDK]

Chasen go on the AllisBrawl chat room i dare you. www.allisbrawl.com/

Wow. Who let you into the Debate Hall?

And calling Brawl boring and competitive isn't crossing the line, because it IS boring and repetitive. Look at it from the standpoint of bringing each game to its full potential. When played to its fullest, Melee is, for all intents and purposes, a true competitive test of the participants. If (and when) Brawl becomes played to its fullest, it becomes a camp-fest. It becomes about who can projectile spam the best.

 

[Jinki]

Look at the balls on this guy.

Brawl is for kids.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

If (and when) Brawl becomes played to its fullest, it becomes a camp-fest. It becomes about who can projectile spam the best.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2iof9C2Zoho

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JtK_sj-ut1M

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7xDR-ELKhIo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=f53aeimv8I0

 

[Jinki]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2iof9C2Zoho

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JtK_sj-ut1M

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7xDR-ELKhIo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=f53aeimv8I0

I don't understand the point you are trying to make in citing a few cases that involve players who are known for being campy in Melee. The issue in Brawl is that a wide majority of the matches come down to camping. That you had to take matches from so many different sets only hurts your "argument".

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I didn't know I was arguing anything >_>

For all you know, I could've been trying to make the point that campy Melee matches are still entertaining. Think before you post.

It's still the dumbest thing I've ever heard though, the only camping I see in Brawl is done by Pit, Falco, or ROB.

 

[Cort]

I stand in front of people and wait a lot in Brawl until I can either safely approach or punish them

I stand in front of people a lot in Melee and pretend to approach them a lot, but it's all disguised in dash dancing, wavedashing, randomly float cancelling and not hitting anything, and... throwing turnips sometimes. And then I wait for a safe approach to come up or punish people for approaching me.

 

[Zankoku]

For all you know, I could've been trying to make the point that campy Melee matches are still entertaining. Think before you post.

From what I remember, you like contradicting people. And that's about it. It reminds me of someone, but I can't really remember who.

 

[Jinki]

In relation to what you quoted, the line of logic that you used is completely false and impossible. "Think before you post." Nothing about it had anything to do with it being entertaining or not and you are only inserting additional elements to attempt to defend yourself.

Much can be said without saying anything.

 

[Clai]

Ah just to add, I wasn't saying that fun had nothing to do with it, I was responding to his argument that he didnt want the mental stress that melee tended to cause because practice was required. I was trying to say that practice is important because people compete to be rewarded for the work they put in, so they are willing to put the time in to master their skills.

I never said this mental stress was caused by the fact that I have to practice in order to get good at Melee. I love Melee and would continue to practice it I still had my group of friends to play Melee with (we all play Brawl now, which is why I am now trying to enter the Brawl competitive scene). The stress and frustration I'm referring to comes from the tournaments, when I'm playing people that I know I am capable of beating if I play the game right, but then for some reason my technical skill and mindset is completely off and I get three-stocked by people I thought I had a chance of beating. I get clobbered by pros at these tourneys as well, and I don't mind it, I actually enjoy it, knowing that this is how it feels being on the other end of a match with a professional. It's the matches that I know I have a chance of winning, and still get clobbered because I can't do anything right, that's when I start kicking myself and wondering, "why bother?"

On another note, I make the notion that we change this thread title to, "Melee will be more competitive than Brawl, and if you think this is false, state your reasoning so that Cactaur can own you thoroughly and undeniably."

 

[RDK]

I stand in front of people and wait a lot in Brawl until I can either safely approach or punish them

I stand in front of people a lot in Melee and pretend to approach them a lot, but it's all disguised in dash dancing, wavedashing, randomly float cancelling and not hitting anything, and... throwing turnips sometimes. And then I wait for a safe approach to come up or punish people for approaching me.

Standing around with Snake and waiting for someone to come within range of his F-tilt is not my idea of an exciting match.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

From what I remember, you like contradicting people. And that's about it.

.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2iof9C2Zoho

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JtK_sj-ut1M

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7xDR-ELKhIo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=f53aeimv8I0

I watched that Mango vs. Mew2King match in person and it was actually pretty amazing.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Standing around with Snake and waiting for someone to come within range of his F-tilt is not my idea of an exciting match.

>.> Don't get him wrong, he does slowly walk towards you, while power shielding anything you send his way.

<.< if you go towards him you're getting F/UTilted or Jab Combo'd. Sometimes you're grabbed. He'll still prevent most of your attacks from landing.

=_= The worst part of the style of play is how frustrating you can get hearing every *DING* of the perfect shield, which makes it really tempting to attack.
@_@ Don't give in to the temptation!
-DD

 

[LOL_Master]

waiting and standing is a tough strategy to beat apparently : )

 

[Falconv1.0]

I believe Melee is more skill oriented, but I wouldn't really say it's more competitive. Either way, I have almsot zero opinions on this, my only problem being that we are always find little techniques but they dont get enough discussion.

We need moar tech but we aren't learning more, wtf is going on?

I wonder how we'll be looking back at this by the end of the year.

 

[manhunter098]

Brawl definitely isnt as competative as Melee. But I still think that it can become a very competative game. Overall though I like Brawl better, if only for the wider range of character choices.

 

[RDK]

Brawl definitely isnt as competative as Melee. But I still think that it can become a very competative game. Overall though I like Brawl better, if only for the wider range of character choices.

...most of which become useless when up against a good Snake or MK.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I believe Melee is more skill oriented, but I wouldn't really say it's more competitive. Either way, I have almsot zero opinions on this, my only problem being that we are always find little techniques but they dont get enough discussion.

We need moar tech but we aren't learning more, wtf is going on?

They don't get enough discussion because they're only borderline useful, if that.

We aren't learning techs because there aren't any useful techs. Why bother to learn semi-useful techs when you can just shield camp and infinite chainthrow?

 

[xXZeroXx]

It pretty much seems that the thread tunred into a Brawl-complaing thread, just look at this:
"Why bother to learn semi-useful techs when you can just shield camp and infinite chainthrow?"

Where's the smart reason here saying Melee is better than Brawl? Is just an ironic statement. I'm sure there are pretty useful techniques in Brawl, but your mood is not going to pull them out for sure.

 

[chansen]

...most of which become useless when up against a good Snake or MK.

QFT.

We just have to wait. Patience is a virtue, and we gotta wait til someone finds something that might have a chance at redeeming brawl. Otherwise we still got melee (and it works a lot faster too!)

 

[dj_pwn1423]

-May 18: Futile beats DSF at UCLA finals using Wario. DSF mains snake.
-May 19: Gimpyfish says brawl is not that bad.

lol >_>

I dont really have anything more useful to add to the discussion right now, other than my opinion.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Snake and MK aren't hard to beat. Just don't be a pansy, actually fight them lol

Wario is good vs Snake

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

It pretty much seems that the thread tunred into a Brawl-complaing thread, just look at this:
"Why bother to learn semi-useful techs when you can just shield camp and infinite chainthrow?"

Where's the smart reason here saying Melee is better than Brawl? Is just an ironic statement. I'm sure there are pretty useful techniques in Brawl, but your mood is not going to pull them out for sure.

What does that mean? I don't understand you.

And I don't understand what my mood has to do with "pulling out" techniques... my mood is such due to the gameplay physics and what Smash has degenerated to.


Oh, is that my noob alarm going off?

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Snake and MK aren't hard to beat. Just don't be a pansy, actually fight them lol

Wario is good vs Snake

he only wins because he can outcamp snake by throwing tires. camping is the way to go >_>

nvm the other things, they are useless against him. -_-

 

[Jam Stunna]

I stand in front of people and wait a lot in Brawl until I can either safely approach or punish them

I stand in front of people a lot in Melee and pretend to approach them a lot, but it's all disguised in dash dancing, wavedashing, randomly float cancelling and not hitting anything, and... throwing turnips sometimes. And then I wait for a safe approach to come up or punish people for approaching me.

At least it looks more interesting in Melee.

Everything said negatively about Brawl is all true, but I've found a reason to play it: I love D3 and he's not in Melee. So despite it being inferior to Melee in every way, I've found something I really like about it. Maybe you guys can find something you like?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I like that I have to relearn lots of stuff. And that Kriby doesn't suck. And meta knight.

I like lots of minor stuff about Brawl.

 

[xXZeroXx]

Maybe you are the one who didn't read the first post, where said not to complain but to give GOOD REASONS against one or other game? Maybe you don't understand because you didn't read my post too?. I said that your mood is not going to pull out techinques, WTH don't you understand there? Is it that hard to understand? OK, I'll explain it specially for you, it will be easy don't worry: If you play a game like "This sux, I wanna play melee, Brawl BAAAA" then you won't main any character and I'm sure you WON'T discover anything useful, if every player would play like you seem to do I'm sure we wouldn't know anything about Link's combos and Ice Climber throw chain, why? Because you open your mouth just to complain without ANY REASON. Now, in your second post (of wich I've seen so far) you add that:

What does that mean? I don't understand you.

And I don't understand what my mood has to do with "pulling out" techniques... my mood is such due to the gameplay physics and what Smash has degenerated to.

WOO, now you say something "useful" about why you don't like Brawl, but, that appeared as an aswer to my post.
If you still don't understand what I'm saying, feel free to ask, I'll be glad to anwer you.

 

[Corigames]

Well, May 2008 guy, let me tell you. Did you read any of the other 3516 posts in this thread that aren't you? Did you? Did you not find enough evidence to support the claim that, when you are camping, you have a definite, definite, advantage over the other person? Projectiles and defensive play are naturally used because the way the mechanics of the game lead you to do that. It's hard to punish people and hard for you to combo them. If you hit someone, you are more likely to get hit back than anything. It's only reasonable to not want to approach and, instead, hit and run or spam.

If you have the inablilty to make inferences about what someone is saying, then you must be a on a grade level that doesn't understand context and how to make educated guesses off of it. We were talking about how camping gives people an advantage, he was just posting to say he agrees with that. There was no need to go into depth over it. There was no need to write a thesis about the camping in Brawl. It was simple and effective.

Why should you learn 10,000 different crappy techniques that are hard to pull of, punishable, and accomplish little when there is an easy, safe, and strog technique a lot of characters can do called camping?

 

[xXZeroXx]

But, it has nothing to do about what YOU guys were talking about but the asnwer he gave here:

Originally Posted by Falconv1.0
I believe Melee is more skill oriented, but I wouldn't really say it's more competitive. Either way, I have almsot zero opinions on this, my only problem being that we are always find little techniques but they dont get enough discussion.

We need moar tech but we aren't learning more, wtf is going on?

They don't get enough discussion because they're only borderline useful, if that.

We aren't learning techs because there aren't any useful techs. Why bother to learn semi-useful techs when you can just shield camp and infinite chainthrow?

So, what's the purpose of this answer?
And what about I joined today? Has it anything to do about how I write in forums or how much I know about Smash? Or even about how many posts I've seen in this forum before I decided to join? Do you think this is the only place to talk about Smash?

Now, please, now you mentioned something about education, was that post directed to you? Then, why don't you let him answer?