Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Endless Nightmares]

You guys are bad at Melee. That's fine too, you may even be "good" at Melee on a large, broad spectrum. But when compared to the top level of play, if you aren't thinking, you aren't that good.

The game isn't limited, your skill level isn't high enough to take advantage of all the game has to offer. I think that's probably one of my favorite parts of Melee.

lol thanks for the cheap shots at my skill.

I said Melee felt more limited. I used that word for a reason. I know Brawl is more limited, it's just that game has completely skewed and hampered my Melee game so much that I will never be able to play it the same or look at it the same again. Just like how I could never go back to 64 after Melee, but this time the effects are massively more prevalent. I can't even put into words how ****ed up my Melee game is now, I didn't even understand what was going on anymore. I knew everything was wrong when I picked G&W, the character I used to pull off my favorite combos with, and I couldn't stop spamming SH bair. When I got hit off the stage I would hit R to slow down my momentum (even after dozens of Melee matches this was a habit I couldn't break) and I would die, it was so terrible ugh

 

[Brookman]

So you suck at melee now...whatever.

 

[Scar]

56k I wasn't trying to take a shot at you, I'm just stating fact. If you feel that you can just blindly rush your opponent and win, you're either playing against bad people or you are bad at the game yourself.

 

[Smilez]

Scar, I'm curious to find out what you feel about Heavy brawl. Have you tried it at all? I agree w/ most of the points made in the Original post. I personally found Heavy Brawl to be more competitive than the standards physics. That said it does not come close to the competitiveness of Melee.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You know 56k, you DID say Brawl has now made you bad at melee, so while Scar's post may not have been true earlier, it is now. Also, don't worry, your melee skills will probably come back if you just play it a bit more. I remember it took a day or two before my melee skills got back and I stoped Short hopping hammers with Kirby.

 

[Papapaint]

lol thanks for the cheap shots at my skill.

I said Melee felt more limited. I used that word for a reason. I know Brawl is more limited, it's just that game has completely skewed and hampered my Melee game so much that I will never be able to play it the same or look at it the same again. Just like how I could never go back to 64 after Melee, but this time the effects are massively more prevalent. I can't even put into words how ****ed up my Melee game is now, I didn't even understand what was going on anymore. I knew everything was wrong when I picked G&W, the character I used to pull off my favorite combos with, and I couldn't stop spamming SH bair. When I got hit off the stage I would hit R to slow down my momentum (even after dozens of Melee matches this was a habit I couldn't break) and I would die, it was so terrible ugh

I do that all the **** time now. It sucks when I'm playing falco in melee.

"Oh, I've just been hit. It's cool, I'll just airdodohgoddammit****piss****."

Takes me a few hours to stop doing those ******* things.

I also try "hugging" all the **** time too. Usually just kind of results in WTF moments.

 

[sgt. fuzz]

Honestly though, Melee tourneys are going to dissapear and Brawl tourneys are going to increase over time. If you want to be a pro, learn to make Brawl as competitive as possible. Sure melee is more suited for tournament play, but what's the point of playing an old game that you CAN'T play competitively because there are no competitions.

 

[Brookman]

I admit, when I play fox in melee now I up b very close to the edge and call out "auto-sweet spot" when I go by it.

 

[RPK]

BRAWL = STREET FIGHTER 3RD STRIKE
BRAWL = STREET FIGHTER3RD STRIKE

POWER SHIELDING = PARRYING
POWER SHIELDING = PARRYING

Street Fighter 3rd Strike is hella slow but Parrying adds depth to the game
Brawl is hella slow but Powershield, will hopfully, add more depth to the game

Coincidence? I think not....

 

[Papapaint]

I admit, when I play fox in melee now I up b very close to the edge and call out "auto-sweet spot" when I go by it.

I try to auto-sweetspot with marth all the **** time. I'm shocked when I just go past the edge and get fsmashed.

 

[Fletch]

I admit, when I play fox in melee now I up b very close to the edge and call out "auto-sweet spot" when I go by it.

This made me laugh pretty hard.

BRAWL = STREET FIGHTER 3RD STRIKE
BRAWL = STREET FIGHTER3RD STRIKE

POWER SHIELDING = PARRYING
POWER SHIELDING = PARRYING

Street Fighter 3rd Strike is hella slow but Parrying adds depth to the game
Brawl is hella slow but Powershield, will hopfully, add more depth to the game

Coincidence? I think not....

Except that power-shielding was made way easier and only makes it easier for the defender and thus helps camping.

 

[BlackPanther]

Power shielding is easier O_o? I haven't been able to do one yet although I haven't picked up the game since I said I was gonna go back to Melee =/.

 

[Fletch]

Power shielding is easier O_o? I haven't been able to do one yet although I haven't picked up the game since I said I was gonna go back to Melee =/.

Ya, I powershield about half the time now where I could never consistently do it in Melee.

 

[Papapaint]

Ya, I powershield about half the time now where I could never consistently do it in Melee.

Same here, and usually by accident. I just see someone coming, go "OHSHI" and shield. I hear *ka-ping! and then deliver a firm backhand.

 

[RPK]

This made me laugh pretty hard.



Except that power-shielding was made way easier and only makes it easier for the defender and thus helps camping.

Well of course it was made easier...Yes because we all want to do powershielding when we only have 2-3 frames to do so...Its kind of obvious why they made it easier...

 

[D20]

Power-shielding doesn't reflect projectiles anymore.

 

[RPK]

Still doesnt change the fact that you can react instantaneously and do ANYTHING right out of a powershield ._.

EDIT:
Plus, you hold your ground if you do a powershield and you dont get pushed back at all.

 

[Zink]

Still doesnt change the fact that you can react instantaneously and do ANYTHING right out of a powershield ._.

which begs the question, why ever approach?
like, look at lucario. He has a good trick where he can sh airdodge nair and be almost unhittable, but why risk it when you can just spam aura sphere? wolf has crossup nair and lagless bair, but why bother when you can just spam blaster? lucas has big scary hitboxes, but who cares when he can just wavebounce PK Fire the whole match? Why should ICs ever want to do anything at all except spam ice blocks and perfect shield -> lethal grab combo every approach in the game? Is there any motivation, really, for Pika to use his airs and nasty dsmash when he can just toss out shocks and thunder whenever he wants? Olimar has **** everything, but then again you can just run around and press side-b until you win when a purple hits your opponent at 375%.
that's depth?

 

[RPK]

Im just stating that powershield is, in my opinion, Brawl's saving grace...Characters are too floaty to combo, its too hard to edge guard considering how easy it is to get back to the ledge. The game was practically stripped of its advanced techs and, despite it only being out for a small amount of time, we have hardly found anything new...But whatever...

 

[Papapaint]

Im just stating that powershield is, in my opinion, Brawl's saving grace...Characters are too floaty to combo, its too hard to edge guard considering how easy it is to get back to the ledge. The game was practically stripped of its advanced techs and, despite it only being out for a small amount of time, we have hardly found anything new...But whatever...

Check out the Heavy Brawl thread.

 

[Zink]

seems kinda pointless to change the game so much. if we won't play with Brawl's standard engine, why not play Melee?

 

[Papapaint]

seems kinda pointless to change the game so much. if we won't play with Brawl's standard engine, why not play Melee?

Many competitive games do it.

Also, it's really not that big of a stretch from, say, turning off items and banning stages. Or playing stock instead of time.

 

[Zink]

Many competitive games do it.

Also, it's really not that big of a stretch from, say, turning off items and banning stages. Or playing stock instead of time.

name a fighters that do.

items and stages are balance issues, stock over time is a win condition issue. neither affect how the game itself works.

 

[DD151]

which begs the question, why ever approach?

this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but begging the question is a form of logical fallacy, not actually "bringing up the question." google it if you want.

just a pet peeve =X

 

[Zink]

this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but begging the question is a form of logical fallacy, not actually "bringing up the question." google it if you want.

just a pet peeve =X

yeah, I remembered that about .75 seconds after posting, and didn't feel like editing. I also left an s on the end of "fighter" above. Bad day?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Brawl is a very campetitive game, there's no denying it.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

I deny it. People PLAY it competitively, but the game itself hardly enough depth to BE competitive. I thought this argument was done and over with.

 

[choknater]

rofl good one 56k

anyways i just wish people would give concrete examples on the camping thing

defensive options this, no way to approach that

concrete examples people! toon link is approachable! so is pit! what is wrong with camping? sheesh, the two hardest characters i've had trouble with approaching were zelda and snake, and even then i could still approach them AND win the match.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Sorry I didn't make my pun a little more obvious >_>

EDIT: yay someone got it <3

 

[Zink]

rofl good one 56k

anyways i just wish people would give concrete examples on the camping thing

defensive options this, no way to approach that

concrete examples people! toon link is approachable! so is pit! what is wrong with camping? sheesh, the two hardest characters i've had trouble with approaching were zelda and snake, and even then i could still approach them AND win the match.

pretty much any attack that can be used to approach is easily blocked->countered.

 

[RDK]

Brawl is a very campetitive game, there's no denying it.

LOL, best post in the thread.

concrete examples people! toon link is approachable! so is pit! what is wrong with camping? sheesh, the two hardest characters i've had trouble with approaching were zelda and snake, and even then i could still approach them AND win the match.

The fact of the matter is unless you play someone like Snake and sit around shielding, waiting until someone pounds on your shield so you can f-tilt them into an oblivion, you're going to have a hard time approaching. Even now, the best approaches are a flying grab or to just shield when you race towards the opponent instead of attacking in hopes he doens't shield too.

Campers have the obvious advantage. If you want an example, look at Pit or Falco.

 

[Egret]

competetive
campetetive
camp eteive
camp etaivy
camp etaivy
camp heavy


it's all the same in the end, guess brawl's competetive afterall


edit: 2:30 AM here

 

[LOL_Master]

video games, video games, video games. games. GAMES.

 

[SynikaL]

I love the constant comparison of Brawl to other fighting games when Smashboards in general does not know sh*t about other fighting games.


-Kye

 

[Shai Hulud]

Smash games aren't even really fighting games. They have more in common with platformers. Melee is just a very fast platformer where players have very high degrees of control over their characters. It's fundamentally different from the more restricted and realistic engines of fighting games.

 

[Zink]

I love the constant comparison of Brawl to other fighting games when Smashboards in general does not know sh*t about other fighting games.


-Kye

yet oddly enough, the SRK community seems to be more engaged in an angry battle about the Evo rules, instead of doing something constructive like, for instance, predicting the appearance of pokemon. Which an SWF user is doing. A March 08 one, indeed. Has SRK even found anything past boost smashing yet?

 

[SynikaL]

yet oddly enough, the SRK community seems to be more engaged in an angry battle about the Evo rules, instead of doing something constructive like, for instance, predicting the appearance of pokemon. Which an SWF user is doing. A March 08 one, indeed. Has SRK even found anything past boost smashing yet?

I don't even browse their forums anymore: I consider SRK to be a cesspool of human thought. That community is so wrapped up in the idea that they can be better than us at our own game, it's unlikely they'll contribute much of anything to the development of Brawl.


-Syn

 

[RDK]

I don't even browse their forums anymore: I consider SRK to be a cesspool of human thought. That community is so wrapped up in the idea that they can be better than us at our own game, it's unlikely they'll contribute much of anything to the development of Brawl.


-Syn

The fact that they don't know **** about their own game disturbs me too.

Can't wait until the new SF comes out so that the same thing that happened to SWF happens to them. They're gonna **** themselves when they realize how bad SF4 is.

 

[Scar]

Scar, I'm curious to find out what you feel about Heavy brawl. Have you tried it at all? I agree w/ most of the points made in the Original post. I personally found Heavy Brawl to be more competitive than the standards physics. That said it does not come close to the competitiveness of Melee.

I tried it, I mean it felt more like Melee but Brawl is not Melee, there are certain ways you can use Brawl's physics either way, I really dislike heavy Brawl, though, because it's nearly impossible to attack people offstage without dying. I love aggressive edgeguarding, I guess that would have to be sacrificed, but who knows.

I think if you could turn autosweetspotting off, Brawl would be far more competitive. After that, we'd turn L-Cancelling on, and after that, we'd be able to turn tripping off.

 

[Brookman]

I think if you could turn autosweetspotting off, Brawl would be far more competitive. After that, we'd turn L-Cancelling on, and after that, we'd be able to turn tripping off.

Allow me to translate:
\
I think if you could turn autosweetspotting the wii off, and play rock, paper, scissors but call it Brawl, it would be far more competitive. After that, we'd turn L-Cancelling on, and after that, we'd be able to turn tripping off the gamecube on and continue playing a skill intensive game.