Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I seriously think you are a troll that just posts "pwned!" every time coreygames says something in response to others. I have not been 'pwned' in any way, it's just a disagreement.

Nah I'm no troll. Though I do see how that gets annoying, I'll stop. It's just that I read the post he's responding to, thought to my self "no that's bull****! because of this and this and this", then I read ahead of that post to make sure I'm not gonna just repeat what other people have said... and corey has already said basically everything there is to say to defeat the argument. Quite soundly, I might add.

Anyways, Scar your post is a great breakdown of "high level" Brawl play. The metagame won't advance, because anyone who tries to "mix it up" will get wrecked by obnoxious spam strategies.

And whoever said that Melee's ATs allow you to be "less perfect" and "save you" from spacing errors... that's just ign'ant. The ATs also allow your opponent to make more precise predictions and punish you for smaller mistakes. Because you have such fine control over your character's movement and spacing, the amount of skill, attention to detail, and precision required is much higher... if you're not up to snuff with your ATs, spacing, mindgames, and prediction abilties, your opponent will just simply wreck you. ATs don't make it the game easier... how did you ever come to that conclusion?

In Brawl you just have to worry about spacing and prediction and that ridiculous amount of DI... and of course remember to stop trying to be creative. Thus why I can't stand Brawl. I like my fighting games to require dynamic thinking.

 

[SiegKnight]

Short hop marths Side B in front of an enemy to gain momentum slightly and approach while not invoking the wrath of their projectiles. Use his disjointed hitbox to deflect ****, airdodge while on the move and also use counter.

From the aereal side b you can follow up with more side b chains if they try to **** with it, or even an f air, which at low percents can guarantee a combo into a d smash if you're wise. You may also use the first hit of an nair to get a guaranteed grab, which with Ness and Lucas spells a neutral grab infinite.

 

[LOL_Master]

koga.*******.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You know what entertains me? That there seems to be a mental paradigm shift going on here at SWF now. 'Pro-Melee' players, many of whom used to gripe at scrubs for their actions, are now themselves complaining about 'gay' strategies and 'cheap' techniques, while many of the 'pro-Brawl' players, the people who were considered scrubby before, are now the ones saying 'man up, deal with it, put up or shut up.' That amuses me to no end.

 

[SiegKnight]

Spoiler

jack you're kinda smart but I wish you'd talk about the actual game

no offense to you

I actually think alot of you are ****ing useless and should be restricted to talking about the game, tactics, strategies, frame data theories and NOTHING ELSE EVER

actually forget it, it won't go anywhere.

so who's up for teaching me basic spacing and technical knowhow in melee? I'm bored of brawl for now today even though I love it. I'm curious on melee.

 

[Clai]

Nah I'm no troll. Though I do see how that gets annoying, I'll stop. It's just that I read the post he's responding to, thought to my self "no that's bull****! because of this and this and this", then I read ahead of that post to make sure I'm not gonna just repeat what other people have said... and corey has already said basically everything there is to say to defeat the argument. Quite soundly, I might add.

Anyways, Scar your post is a great breakdown of "high level" Brawl play. The metagame won't advance, because anyone who tries to "mix it up" will get wrecked by obnoxious spam strategies.

And whoever said that Melee's ATs allow you to be "less perfect" and "save you" from spacing errors... that's just ign'ant. The ATs also allow your opponent to make more precise predictions and punish you for smaller mistakes. Because you have such fine control over your character's movement and spacing, the amount of skill, attention to detail, and precision required is much higher... if you're not up to snuff with your ATs, spacing, mindgames, and prediction abilties, your opponent will just simply wreck you. ATs don't make it the game easier... how did you ever come to that conclusion?

In Brawl you just have to worry about spacing and prediction and that ridiculous amount of DI... and of course remember to stop trying to be creative. Thus why I can't stand Brawl. I like my fighting games to require dynamic thinking.

There will be a day when dynamic thinking is required to win in Brawl and we grow up from this spamfest. In the mean time, I will try to be creative and find new ways to beat spammers. I need to go to a tournament. Where are all them Long Islanders at?

I think I'm going to stop comparing Brawl to Melee, as this is the most convincing thing yet. Brawl is never going to be Melee, Brawl will never reach the same intensity as Melee. Brawl will never have the deep playing of Melee. All I wonder is why we all consider Melee to be this fantastic, high-speed, incredibly deep game when we look at Brawl which is slower and doesn't have wavedashing and we all go "OMG! IT'S A SPAMFEST! WE DON'T HAVE TO THINK IN BRAWL ANYMORE! USE THE BOOST TO GET THROUGH!!!!!!" I find Brawl to be a much more relaxing style then Melee because of this slower gameplay. Hopefully, once I find something in Long Island, I can say that I have more fun using creative strategies in a Brawl tournament than blasting my fingers to no avail in Melee tournaments.

Blitzkrieg, if'd you'd like to say "owned!" now, you may do so.

Scar, if everything you said is true, then I am crying on the inside. Going to a tournament and spaming lazors and fsmashes to win? That's not like you at all. And what the heck is stage scarring?

 

[Cactuar]

Sieg, regardless of what you can do with Marth in Brawl, I can do it better. You wanting to "show" Scar anything with that character is pointless. I have done both sides of the spectrum as far as aggressive vs defensive playstyles go and being aggressive in a competitive environment is just a far inferior strategy to camping.

That being said, the only strategy that needs to be used with Marth is camp sideb spam until you have an opportunity to fsmash, upsmash, or upb the opponent. I did this the entire tournament and lost 0 matches doing so. The game is dumb. Simple as that.

Edit:
@Clai:

The only even remotely thought provoking element in Brawl is predicting airdodges, as that is the largest element of the new "combo" game. Unfortunately, this is still a failure because the majority of characters can attack and miss an airdodged character, then attack again in time to punish the person for airdodge to avoid that attack, assuming the punishing player is not ********. There is no real further evolution for this game. Sorry if that sounds depressing, but it is really just a party game. This is not a game for people who wish to prove their skill vs another person at high level. It is not meant to be thought provoking in any way and the designer has said, not in those exact words, that the elements implemented are in place specifically to remove competitive mindset, and that it is meant to be a light-hearted non-serious game.

 

[SiegKnight]

UGhhh~ NO BOOST, NO BOOST, ARE YOU TOO INSANE?!

edit -

And sh cactuar. I'm a man that believes what he sees with his own eyes only. I don't care about your status and I'm not even a US smasher. I'm waiting for UKs first organized Brawl tournament and then I'll see if the campers piss me off enough, its a high level one supposedly too.

'I CAN DO IT BETTER LULZ' - Great way to assume my mental processing power off the bat. I play games five times more technical than any Smash ever will be, often handfuls of them at uber, uber top level in the same month. Not saying I'm hands down better than you at Brawl, but hell no if I'm letting you get away with that blind assumption.

You can fly over and fight me face to face, or if you have a fibre optic connection face me on wifi, but you're not getting away with blind assumptions. Use actual logic to contradict why my strategy wouldn't work against someone who only lasers and fsmashes. If I make him switch up his camping, thats my only goal. I don't want to particularly show him anything anyway, just wouldn't mind giving him a varied and exciting match to enjoy since he obviously hates brawl.

It was a move out of empathy, not e-***** servicing, as hard as that is for smash boards to comprehend.

 

[Cactuar]

'I CAN DO IT BETTER LULZ' - Great way to assume my mental processing power off the bat. I play games five times more technical than any Smash ever will be, often handfuls of them at uber, uber top level in the same month. Not saying I'm hands down better than you at Brawl, but hell no if I'm letting you get away with that blind assumption.

It's not an assumption of your "processing power". Your experience, from a technical standpoint, in other games does not apply, especially in brawl. Mindset does carry over, but trying to compare your (relevant) smash experience and ability to mine would be pointless. Before you try to bring mental ability into this conversation, you might want to find out about what kind of player I am.

Calling it a blind assumption is incorrect. I have based it from the manner of your posts and how you described your "strategy". If you attempted to sideb over me at any point in time, you would be punished. You have stated that you would use an aggressive strategy. That is where you fail.

Also, what an absurd statement "fly over and face me or prove it online". What is the point in even saying something like that?

 

[SiegKnight]

you have stated you'd use three moves, all of which are totally jump in counterable in reaction by being smart enough

the side b can be followed with ****loads of other side b variations and after the first hit, it takes me downward, the first takes me upward.

trust me when I say its weird and ****s up the way the opponent deals with you, as its not a normal jump height, and yet you can follow it up with counter. Your only option is... F smashing on reaction, but not really, as the hit tends to stroke tall characters.

Marth can play very aggressively if you're not fighting 8 year old meta knight users in small, worthless tournaments, as can meta knight and a handful of others.

I'm not saying I don't have a defensive outlook on the game overall, but I fight aggressively within that defensive outlook. I option powershield alot and approach slowly. I am of course restricted to being less crazy and raunchy than a melee player can be with the mvc sized ******** cheese, but I'm still aggressive within that perimitre, if that makes sense.

And no, sorry, you can't judge me based on internet posts. I already told you how you can convince me; logic or playing me face to face. How does side b camping and 2/3 of his smashes = you win? Theres ****loads of stuff that get around that, any ranged special especially certain projectiles too.

 

[Fugue]

Scar, if everything you said is true, then I am crying on the inside. Going to a tournament and spaming lazors and fsmashes to win? That's not like you at all. And what the heck is stage scarring?

To be fair, we mostly sucked in comparison, I think.
If it's what I think it is, Stage Scarring is grabbing the ledge, dropping down, then instantly using Wolf's side B to warp through the floor and appear on the ledge. It's really just another way onto the ledge. It's nothing amazing (except for the way it violates physics), just another way back up onto the stage.

 

[SiegKnight]

And the point is obvious. Stop editing your posts repeatedly to try and make them look more douchefied and elitist, you're already doing a great job of that. The point is, you're using blanket arguments and statements as opposed to proving my strategies wrong entirely. Blanket arguments suck, and make you look like an idiot. In other words, I think you're an idiot. Smash skill does not compensate for the habit of using blanket statements and for the lack of intelligence. Intelligence however can figure ways around strategies and better ways to look at the game, ways to approach and tech trap people, and just enjoy it more; assuming you... Gasp, actually like it, god forbid.

If you beat me in a game face to face, it'd prove that you're right in the event you aren't able to use words to your advantage and prove me wrong, which, when Yuna and others who've verified me as intelligent anyway have done so, I have totally accepted.

I played with the starter of the UK melee scene proper, who hosted the first tournament in 2003. He said my playstyles pretty good, and that I have the right mindset for the game what with my creativity. Melee, that is. But the game we were playing was Brawl, and he also likes that game.

Blanket arguments like 'the game is just crap' and 'I can do it better' - I won't listen to them. Use your brain and prove it piece by piece, puzzle part by puzzle part.

 

[Cactuar]

you have stated you'd use three moves, all of which are totally jump in counterable in reaction by being smart enough

the side b can be followed with ****loads of other side b variations and after the first hit, it takes me downward, the first takes me upward.

trust me when I say its weird and ****s up the way the opponent deals with you, as its not a normal jump height, and yet you can follow it up with counter. Your only option is... F smashing on reaction, but not really, as the hit tends to stroke tall characters.

Marth can play very aggressively if you're not fighting 8 year old meta knight users in small, worthless tournaments, as can meta knight and a handful of others.

I'm not saying I don't have a defensive outlook on the game overall, but I fight aggressively within that defensive outlook. I option powershield alot and approach slowly. I am of course restricted to being less crazy and raunchy than a melee player can be with the mvc sized ******** cheese, but I'm still aggressive within that perimitre, if that makes sense.

And no, sorry, you can't judge me based on internet posts. I already told you how you can convince me; logic or playing me face to face. How does side b camping and 2/3 of his smashes = you win? Theres ****loads of stuff that get around that, any ranged special especially certain projectiles too.

If you side b my shield from above, you are going to get upsmashed/upb'd. Counter does not come out fast enough after sideb to avoid this. If you pass by overhead, you are going to get punished with random aerial. When you start to learn that your strategy is ineffective and jump in and do anything else, you are going to start leaving yourself vulnerable to shield grabs or other punishments due to hesitation. If you start spacing an aerial at my shield, you are going to get punished with fb combos the instant you land because of the lack of shield stun and the quick recovery upon release of shield in this game. If you roll/dodge in response to this in an attempt to escape, you are going to get punished with a fb combo, or given that you choose the incorrect option and roll behind me or to the edge given the situation, you will be upb'd or fsmashed.

Your "jump in counter" statement is false, as all of my strategies are based on reaction to an opponent using a specific move to trigger my own reaction. You would succeed only in being punished for attempting to counter. Again, you should really ask Scar or any player really about what kind of player I am.

As for aggressive camping, if that is what you are trying to refer to, I'm sure any player (Scar) would be happy (maybe not happy) to explain my style in melee.

 

[HugS]

I lost to a player who tornadoed, over B'd, and up B'd as metaknight. No other moves were involved. I lost to him twice.

I 2-0'd every other player in the tournament who didn't boil down his strategy down to three moves. This same player also had an average placing of 17th-25th in tournaments before he decided to pick up metaknight and use 3 moves. He placed fifth place at this tournament, convincingly.

Just another case study for you all.

 

[SiegKnight]

that sounds more convincing, thanks using logic. You could've done that from the start and saved me a headache.

I'll bear that in mind. I don't like, leap in into danger like a moron as if it was even remotely like what I see in melee vids. I just... Yes, camp aggressively. The game is limited to defensive options and has far less offensively, so I generally play vs better players in the UK so far using that setup. Its far from using just using a laser and 3-4 moves.

What if I used jump in AD? Airdodge cancels out and allows immediate movement once you hit the ground, meaning I could shield, grab, shieldgrab setup, get a powershield in, spotdodge, or, heck, attack.

Then?

 

[Koga]

There is no real further evolution for this game.

THat is speculation and your opinion. You lose.


@Mr. Hugs:

I'm curious, What character did you use and how did you try to avoid those same three moves over and over again?

@siege knight.


Yes, that seems to be something I'm pondering too. For all the say of the defensive options in the game, no one seems to talk about the fact that the attacking player has equal access to the defensive options that the defenssive player has except the offensive player is on the attack and gets the advantage of getting the read on his opponent. No one engages in this discussion.

 

[SiegKnight]

Koga. You're using a blanket statement and also showing your stubbornness. Stop debating points against the game that they've brought up that're true and bring in speculation of things that melee didn't totally trump brawl in, or go play the ****ing game and advance it enough for it to become something less annoying if there is room there for it.

rather than constantly posting in an anti brawl thread go actually bloody help the game out, I don't think posting useless points and untrue crap on the internet in a place adverse to the game entirely is going to help our cause. god you almost put me off the thing. Don't compare its offensive options to melee you tool, its a reactive game, and 99% different to melee.

 

[Cactuar]

that sounds more convincing, thanks using logic. You could've done that from the start and saved me a headache.

I'll bear that in mind. I don't like, leap in into danger like a moron as if it was even remotely like what I see in melee vids. I just... Yes, camp aggressively. The game is limited to defensive options and has far less offensively, so I generally play vs better players in the UK so far using that setup. Its far from using just using a laser and 3-4 moves.

What if I used jump in AD? Airdodge cancels out and allows immediate movement once you hit the ground, meaning I could shield, grab, shieldgrab setup, get a powershield in, spotdodge, or, heck, attack.

Then?

The problem with jump in airdodge is that it is easy to predict the landing area and that because I play a heavy reaction game, it will get you shieldgrabbed if you land in front or upb/upsmashed if you land behind. Despite you being able to move instantly on landing, the shield grab hitbox remains out for a pretty wide margin of time and you would only be coming out of invincibility frames and coming into a grab. Same applies for the upsmash. Upb has somewhat more specific timing, but it isn't that difficult.

THat is speculation and your opinion. You lose.


@Mr. Hugs:

I'm curious, What character did you use and how did you try to avoid those same three moves over and over again?

I never claimed it to be anything other than my opinion. Maybe if you spent less time desperately looking for a reason to post and make yourself look like an *** and more time creating solid arguments you would be more than what you are now, which is a nobody.

 

[HugS]

THat is speculation and your opinion. You lose.


@Mr. Hugs:

I'm curious, What character did you use and how did you try to avoid those same three moves over and over again?

@siege knight.


Yes, that seems to be something I'm pondering too. For all the say of the defensive options in the game, no one seems to talk about the fact that the attacking player has equal access to the defensive options that the defenssive player has except the offensive player is on the attack and gets the advantage of getting the read on his opponent. No one engages in this discussion.

I main ROB and the only way to get around tornado set ups is to laser through it. Unfortunately the laser comes out slow and loses strength quickly. I found that the end of the nair could hit him out of it. I don't know if it's because of the way the end of my nair hits, or because the tornado is easier to hit after it's been out for a bit. I do know you can hit the top of the tornado, but this is a tough task for a rob, and for any character vs a competent metaknight.

Either way, I realized after the match that the only reason I had come close to winning was because my opponent sucked. Had this strategy been employed by a player closer to my skill level, there's no way in hell I, nor any non snake user, could have taken a round.

 

[SiegKnight]

even if you immediately buffer in a spot dodge? I assume theres a small narrow window of vulnerability. I would try to mix it up with varied falling times and weird directions to make it so its hard to tell what side I'll come by, but all in all it can't be absolute.

hm... o.o ****, that **** is a hard one.

Well, I am actually very interested in this game ignoring the campy ****. Because, I really like games of defence and prediction. It excites me, and I would like it if this game does develop defensively. I don't think anyone into melee will like that, its not fast enough or interesting for them in terms of pure excitement... but you know.

What about if I followed up my short hopped side b with another side b immediately after and messed up timing with withdrawing it and then using it again? its very peculiar and allows for mixups since a shield grab or any smash would be interupted on windup by side b 2.

I could stop the combo at weird times to airdodge, though that might be too laggy.

I'm really not sure, I'm willing to do all I can to stop the gameplay degenerating totally though, as I want this game to succeed, for what it is too.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Yes, that seems to be something I'm pondering too. For all the say of the defensive options in the game, no one seems to talk about the fact that the attacking player has equal access to the defensive options that the defenssive player has except the offensive player is on the attack and gets the advantage of getting the read on his opponent. No one engages in this discussion.

The problem with being aggressive, even in a defensive manner as you suggest, is simply that the attacking player is in a weaker position. Just by attacking, you're defining limitations on your possibe next moves, giving up the advantage. The opponent can just sit there and shield and have a vast array of options, many of which will come out and hit you before your attack even ends. If your goal is to predict their reaction, chances are you're going to fail... you have to play a (educated perhaps) guessing game while your opponent can just react to what he sees... Plus with few ways to approach, you'll very quickly become predictable.

Do you mean hitbox camping? I wouldn't call that "aggressive"...

 

[Cactuar]

even if you immediately buffer in a spot dodge? I assume theres a small narrow window of vulnerability. I would try to mix it up with varied falling times and weird directions to make it so its hard to tell what side I'll come by, but all in all it can't be absolute.

hm... o.o ****, that **** is a hard one.

Well, I am actually very interested in this game ignoring the campy ****. Because, I really like games of defence and prediction. It excites me, and I would like it if this game does develop defensively. I don't think anyone into melee will like that, its not fast enough or interesting for them in terms of pure excitement... but you know.

What about if I followed up my short hopped side b with another side b immediately after and messed up timing with withdrawing it and then using it again? its very peculiar and allows for mixups since a shield grab or any smash would be interupted on windup by side b 2.

I could stop the combo at weird times to airdodge, though that might be too laggy.

I'm really not sure, I'm willing to do all I can to stop the gameplay degenerating totally though, as I want this game to succeed, for what it is too.

In watching your approach, I only predict where you are landing after you have already airdodge, and to keep the window of invulnerability small enough that you keep it until the point you land, you won't be giving yourself a lot of room for change in landing. You do not have time to spotdodge after landing and avoid the grab hitbox, as you will be vulnerable for several frames, regardless of how close you are to being frame perfect upon landing into spotdodge.

As far as you mixing up the side b, if you pause that long, you are going to pass overhead and the following side b's will likely not connect. If I were in that situation, double jumping out would likely be my answer as attacking shields is incredibly unsafe. The second sideb in the situation you described would have you in position almost directly over the character, and at most would trade hits with an upsmash, which is disadvantageous for you. Upb would get you regardless as that move is broken with it's first frame invincibility and knockback.

A good player will also have much better shield grab timing. While shielding, with good timing, you can shield grab between the side b hits.

Honestly, I do play aggressive Marth in friendly matches (I generally will lose in friendlies). The best options for being aggressive as a Marth player in the shield situation is to do an extremely late fair onto a person's shield expecting them to go for the shield grab and immediately upb. Because of upb's first frame invulnerability, you will always hit through a grab and the knockback is enough to keep you from being punished. Once they start hesitation in attempting to shield grab your fair to upb, you can simply land into shield grab, or if they start rolling out or dodging, you can land and wait (I generally dash behind and wait), or switch your fair into a shieldbreaker.

There are a large number of options in the game. The problem is that almost all of them can be covered by 2-3 responses from the defensive player regardless of how well you can mix up your offensive game.

I specialize in countering situations and overall analysis of player vs player mindset and reaction. It is extremely unrealistic for other players to think about the game on this level. I get upset about the game because of how many of the options that I run through, I could easily counter with another character. My mindset has shown me enough aspects about brawl for me to be frustrated with it in that, while I can spend so much time working on offensive tactics, I can counter all of that with a few seconds of thought devoted towards defensive strategy. The only saving factor in this is that not everyone has the same reaction speed that I do and that I usually do not share strategies with people.

 

[Dark Sonic]

even if you immediately buffer in a spot dodge? I assume theres a small narrow window of vulnerability

You missed the part where he said "you'd come out of invincibility and into a grab." As in, the grab is overlapping the end of your invincibility frames. There is 100% nothing you can do about it. Upsmash works the same as it lasts a while. Only up B would require any kind of precise timing, but Cactuar is more than capable of that.

of vulnerability. I would try to mix it up with varied falling times and weird directions to make it so its hard to tell what side I'll come by, but all in all it can't be absolute.

No amount of varied falling times would save you here, as he's simply reacting to you falling, not anticipating your fall. As soon as you get close to the ground while doing an airdodge he will start the up smash or grab. Thee upsmash will hit regarless of which side you land on if you're close, and if you're out of upsmash range in front of him he will just grab (as you'd have no possiblity of landing behind him at that range), and if you land behind him and out of the up smash range (not sure how that would work out) then he will let go of his shield, turn around, and do pretty much anything he wants as long as the hitbox stays out for a little while.

What about if I followed up my short hopped side b with another side b immediately after and messed up timing with withdrawing it and then using it again?

Umm... he'd hit you after the first side B dude. You're forgettting that Marth actually has vertical range. F-smash, up tilt, up smash, fair, ect. He won't let you do the second side B, and if you airdodge he'll just fastfall and do whatever he wants to do from there. It's really not that hard. Marth is actually a very hard character to approach against, which is why people have to camp him so much.

its very peculiar and allows for mixups since a shield grab or any smash would be interupted on windup by side b 2.

No it wouldn't, because the attack would connect right after the invincibility from your airdodge ends (which is when you land btw). As in, the hitbox comes out during your invincibility, and stays out long enough to connect right when the invincibility goes away. It's the same thing as hitting people out of spotdodges.

I could stop the combo at weird times to airdodge, though that might be too laggy.

It is too laggy. You haven't really tested these theories have you? Marth's side B actually has a lot of ending lag, or at least much more than enough to make it unsafe if you miss or it's blocked.

Just wanted to point this stuff out. If you're going to play theory fighter, at least learn the moves' statistics first.

 

[Koga]

I main ROB and the only way to get around tornado set ups is to laser through it. Unfortunately the laser comes out slow and loses strength quickly. I found that the end of the nair could hit him out of it. I don't know if it's because of the way the end of my nair hits, or because the tornado is easier to hit after it's been out for a bit. I do know you can hit the top of the tornado, but this is a tough task for a rob, and for any character vs a competent metaknight.

Either way, I realized after the match that the only reason I had come close to winning was because my opponent sucked. Had this strategy been employed by a player closer to my skill level, there's no way in hell I, nor any non snake user, could have taken a round.

Well, I personally never try to get around a tornadoe i just aviod it and try to punish ending lag.

If they want to spam tornadoe, then they have to approach you with it, i found that ledgstalls work great for this in that if they try to attack you off the edge with tornadoe they die. That's just my thoughts though


@Cactuar

I Felt like you were stating your opinion as it was irrefutable fact. So i called it.

 

[Cactuar]

@Cactuar

I Felt like you were stating your opinion as it was irrefutable fact. So i called it.

Realistically, some people's opinions are much closer to being fact than others given the nature of expert opinion vs opinion, and I would come under that category of expert on this subject.

You do not have the right to call anything unless you provide an argument against what my statement is. Only saying that something I said wasn't fact doesn't prove that I am wrong in any way. You fail.

 

[HugS]

Cactuar is Elitist.

He's my kind of people.

 

[Sensei]

Let me first introduce myself to people who do not know or heard of me. I'm have been an avid competitive Smash player for about 2 years (though I'm kinda retired now). I started playing SSB64 and Melee on a competitive level around the same time. I've learned many techniques and strategies along the way and played and received advice from pros such as Isai and Mew2King. I became an expert in the two games and entered in many tournaments (winning numerous or placing relatively high in most of them that had good players).

Then Brawl came around. I was so excited to play it and have a fresh start to become competitive in new game. I entered the Gamestop tournament for brawl on launch day. I managed to win, though only due to people randomly suiciding and did not have a clue to play the game while I received like 10 min of brawl play time on my crew's modified wii the day before LOL. Anyways, so I began to train and try to find a way to become professional player. What shocked me were the lack of combos and, worst of all, no l canceling! This truly upset me because now the learning curve and depth was drastically reduced. Not to mention all the movements that helped you psych our your opponents like wavedashing and influencing the direction the airdodge were removed. Shield stun was practically non existent and allowed shield grabbing to become an incredibly good strategy and created an incentive to not approach, but to spam projectiles or camping. Now include randomness such as tripping and you have a game that would absurd to be considered "competitive".

Imagine a hypothetical addition to basketball that when a player goes for a slam dunk, randomly, an 18 wheeler plows him. Wow! This version of basketball is so fresh and exciting and makes it fair for everyone. LOL. This is a comedic comparison, but point still remains.

After I discovered all this, Brawl seemed to lack any competitiveness that the previous smash games have. So now I just play brawl as a party game and have fun with it, but not as a competitive game such as melee or ssb64.

I have no problem people playing this game or not, even at a competitive level. What upsets me is that people ignore that fact that melee and ssb64 had so much more depth and strategies, that brawl is weak in comparison in term of professional tournament play. This has probably been covered a thousand times before by Scar, Cactuar or others. Unless something groundbreaking and innovate occurs in brawl that allows it to become more competitive and deep (which is next to nil), then Brawl will still remain as a "party game".

 

[Gimpyfish62]

cactuar's got this.

 

[SiegKnight]

You missed the part where he said "you'd come out of invincibility and into a grab." As in, the grab is overlapping the end of your invincibility frames. There is 100% nothing you can do about it. Upsmash works the same as it lasts a while. Only up B would require any kind of precise timing, but Cactuar is more than capable of that.
No amount of varied falling times would save you here, as he's simply reacting to you falling, not anticipating your fall. As soon as you get close to the ground while doing an airdodge he will start the up smash or grab. Thee upsmash will hit regarless of which side you land on if you're close, and if you're out of upsmash range in front of him he will just grab (as you'd have no possiblity of landing behind him at that range), and if you land behind him and out of the up smash range (not sure how that would work out) then he will let go of his shield, turn around, and do pretty much anything he wants as long as the hitbox stays out for a little while.
Umm... he'd hit you after the first side B dude. You're forgettting that Marth actually has vertical range. F-smash, up tilt, up smash, fair, ect. He won't let you do the second side B, and if you airdodge he'll just fastfall and do whatever he wants to do from there. It's really not that hard. Marth is actually a very hard character to approach against, which is why people have to camp him so much.
No it wouldn't, because the attack would connect right after the invincibility from your airdodge ends (which is when you land btw). As in, the hitbox comes out during your invincibility, and stays out long enough to connect right when the invincibility goes away. It's the same thing as hitting people out of spotdodges.

It is too laggy. You haven't really tested these theories have you? Marth's side B actually has a lot of ending lag, or at least much more than enough to make it unsafe if you miss or it's blocked.

Just wanted to point this stuff out. If you're going to play theory fighter, at least learn the moves' statistics first.

I've tested them out vs many characters one by one, Marth is just a very rare mirror for me. He's not too popular in UK, its alllll about Snake here.

ps koga stfu, if someone has an opinion you don't agree with, prove it wrong or state your own views. If you have nothing objective to bring against it after that, then they're right, and you listen to it.

In watching your approach, I only predict where you are landing after you have already airdodge, and to keep the window of invulnerability small enough that you keep it until the point you land, you won't be giving yourself a lot of room for change in landing. You do not have time to spotdodge after landing and avoid the grab hitbox, as you will be vulnerable for several frames, regardless of how close you are to being frame perfect upon landing into spotdodge.

As far as you mixing up the side b, if you pause that long, you are going to pass overhead and the following side b's will likely not connect. If I were in that situation, double jumping out would likely be my answer as attacking shields is incredibly unsafe. The second sideb in the situation you described would have you in position almost directly over the character, and at most would trade hits with an upsmash, which is disadvantageous for you. Upb would get you regardless as that move is broken with it's first frame invincibility and knockback.

A good player will also have much better shield grab timing. While shielding, with good timing, you can shield grab between the side b hits.

Honestly, I do play aggressive Marth in friendly matches (I generally will lose in friendlies). The best options for being aggressive as a Marth player in the shield situation is to do an extremely late fair onto a person's shield expecting them to go for the shield grab and immediately upb. Because of upb's first frame invulnerability, you will always hit through a grab and the knockback is enough to keep you from being punished. Once they start hesitation in attempting to shield grab your fair to upb, you can simply land into shield grab, or if they start rolling out or dodging, you can land and wait (I generally dash behind and wait), or switch your fair into a shieldbreaker.

There are a large number of options in the game. The problem is that almost all of them can be covered by 2-3 responses from the defensive player regardless of how well you can mix up your offensive game.

I specialize in countering situations and overall analysis of player vs player mindset and reaction. It is extremely unrealistic for other players to think about the game on this level. I get upset about the game because of how many of the options that I run through, I could easily counter with another character. My mindset has shown me enough aspects about brawl for me to be frustrated with it in that, while I can spend so much time working on offensive tactics, I can counter all of that with a few seconds of thought devoted towards defensive strategy. The only saving factor in this is that not everyone has the same reaction speed that I do and that I usually do not share strategies with people.

Understood. Yes, that 50/50 with the up b is genious actually, and a great way to punish a defensive player if you guess them well. Especially when you consider that air combos are little to none if you're predictive of their movements, they can't really punish you too much for the failed up b. Uhm, well, I guess its a huge opening they get; won't exactly lead to a combo though anytime soon.

I don't think its too unrealistic to think on that level. I'm not trying to just become good enough to beat people with dull reactions and crap strategies, I want to be good enough to be considered overall solid. Whether that'd make me a great player or not, I don't really care, but I consider the game on a literal frame by frame basis.

Its true the game sounds ridicolously defensive when put in this light, but I also really like defensive gameplay and stuff focused on reading your opponent. It amuses me, and I've always liked the slow and well thought out fighters over the ridicolously fast and combo happy ones. Not that they aren't exciting or technical.

Its really that bad of a situation though? Even if you play it in an aggressive way while still remaining on the defense and mindfull of brawls framework having no way to be completely wild, theres no way for it to be fulfilling in a defensive way?

I'm curious. Also? I'm not neccesarily debating with you by this point as much as I'm conversing and want to know, just so you understand I'm not delusional and still arguing Brawl is great - its just a game I like. By this point I understand your logic and pretty much agree with it. I just want to enjoy this game in the far future as much as I have been up to this point, and still develop it with everyone else willing to play seriously. (seems to be a healthy influx of members)

Its really that unpotent and plain out awful? Maybe its bad as a Smash game compared to the others, but not even good as a fighter considering its at least making us consider all these options due to how messed up it is?

 

[Scar]

Cactuar is Elitist.

He's my kind of people.

I know, right?

cactuar's got this.

True.

Also good **** Sensei. I lul'd at your basketball analogy. Other than that I'd just like to agree with everything Cactuar has said, he really is correct, and as far as HugS's story about the b-spamming Metaknight, that's by far the best strategy with him and I have experienced the game and see very clearly that it's all about spamming your best moves intelligently.

Melee has more depth than that.

 

[SiegKnight]

cactuars the only one thats came close to convincing me brawls a bad game so far because he's actually mindful of all the options that exist in it, takes the time to explain them properly and how a few very reactive defensive options can still beat them all

it doesn't change my opinion in the end because I like the ammount of options in the game even if alot of them are useless, I guess I like a broken *** game, even though its fun as a videogame as its core despite its competetive lack of gameplay balance. Though I love the game, I can accept it fully when someone says Brawl competetively fails on alot of levels in comparison to a better game, bearing all that stuff he stated in mind.

Its still a great game to me, but its also one of them badly designed ones where the majority of options that're strategically deep show when you're not actually playing to win, which is sad and disheartening. I can accept the view that Melee is a better game from that standpoint.

 

[Scar]

cactuars the only one thats came close to convincing me brawls a bad game so far because he's actually mindful of all the options that exist in it, takes the time to explain them properly and how a few very reactive defensive options can still beat them all

it doesn't change my opinion in the end because I like the ammount of options in the game even if alot of them are useless, I guess I like a broken *** game, even though its fun as a videogame as its core despite its competetive lack of gameplay balance.

This whole quote is funny to me. This is exactly why no one else takes the time to talk to people, too. First of all, specific conditions must be satisfied. The player needs to be really smart and really good at both games. Cactuar is one of the only people who satisfy even that condition, as many players are really good at both but can't explain (or don't understand) why the things they do work.

After that, the player has to have about 3 hours on their hands completely free. They also need to be extremely patient since they will invariably have to repeat the same points multiple times.

Finally, after the conversation, their efforts were largely fruitless because, as you so eloquently put it, you "like the ammount of options in the game even if alot of them are useless." Anyone else who has been through this, myself included, loses most if not all motivation to proceed defending their points.

 

[SiegKnight]

I don't know; Brawls the new thing to play and I doubt it'll last very long to me. Broken fighting games become a passing habit, and I play it more casually than competetive. Thats an opinion, not a defiance of the facts. I don't put myself alongside people like Koga as I wasn't debating with him as much as I was conversing.

If I pick up Melee, if its as good as you so state it as, I'd likely get hooked if the scene actually remains alight.

Whether brawl keeps me hooked as it is in the current moment, thats up to if the game miracolously develops well or not. If its physically impossible as it seems to be at the current moment, I'll pretty much get bored of it before long. If I don't? Its opinion.

I don't see why I have to like melee more for me to be considered not annoying, or why its so much patience for him to explain all this; he seemed to be pretty self indulgant in his strategies, he even said he usually doesn't have to explain them to people. I'm allowed to like Brawl more. Smash has plenty going for it outside of competetive play too, and I'm also a general gamer as heavily as I am a competetive player.

I have 6 other games to learn and 2 of which I'm already a tetsujin and thus at the top of in, at least in play level. No one I know has particularly beaten me in a serious match at one of them in months and months, as a tetsujin/ironmans duty is generally not to lose under their proclamation of a win streak. I already have my competetive fighters.

I've admitted I can see why Melee is a better competetive game even if I don't really like it. I'm going to play brawl competetively for a ton of time because... I want to and because I **** well can. If it degenerates, I'll probably not bother. Thats a subjective view, not a backup to my argument. I can play it non competetively but still mildly seriously, in the way cactuar applies aggression to his marth in friendlies even if it doesn't work best. Thats where the strategy that is usually 'useless' becomes fun and mildly usable. I like brawl to **** around on, though in a serious sort of way. I'll still play it to win in tournies, though if it degens I'll keep it to myself.

I already conceded that Brawl is a worse game objectively as a 1 v 1 neutral fighter a while back due to that. Haven't I basically conceded to what you're trying to convey? Are you that blind and bullheaded?

 

[LOL_Master]

it's just really hard to convince people who suck at melee hardcore to realize melee is just better

 

[Gimpyfish62]

wow brawl is really dumb lol i'm at a tournament right now, i've never seen such gay playstyles before in my life

 

[Aesir]

I only play brawl because I find snake and lucario incredibly fun. I refuse to enter brawl tourneys though..>_> I have better things to spend my 15 dollars on, like I dunno cancer or something.

Virtually everything cactuar has said is true, I really try to be aggressive but it never works it seems you get better results by just rolling and fsmashing. Funny thats how scrubs generally play.

 

[Cactuar]

@Sieg: Yeah, I noticed several posts back that your tone in argument had shifted from combative to conversational, so I also shifted mine. I do make every attempt to legitimately discuss the pros and cons of the game and how the actual systems work at this point in time and how they will work in the future.

The way Scar has put it as far as the two qualities a player needs to be able to contribute this way to these discussions is unfortunately very true, and even more unfortunate is the lack of players who fulfill those requirements to the extent that I do.

I completely understand where you are coming from as far as keeping it a friendly non-competitive game. The issue in that is that I have no interest in non-competitive games for the most part as I consider my time somewhat valuable. Sure, if I am hanging out with friends and they happen to be playing, I will join in. I just have no expectation to really be interested in investing money when the odds of seeing a return on that is largely randomized and diluted because of mechanisms in the game, purposefully inserted to spread the odds of winning out so that low level players would have more "fun".

Bottom Line: Sakurai ****ed up. The smash community (64 and melee, you brawl-babies are too new to understand) has worked its *** off to be recognized as a fighting game when every other fighter community has defined us otherwise for a most of our timeline. We finally achieved that status and at least some recognition, only for it to be destroyed because the designer wants low level players to be able to compete with better people without having to work for that ability.

I find this incredibly disrespectful to anyone who has played any of the games on a serious level, blatantly ignoring that we have worked for something so that he can please people who will only play it on a non-competitive level, all so that they won't be butt-hurt over getting 3 stocked online because they can't keep up.

As you all know, this is going to happen anyway. All it has done is create an unnecessary tension in legitimate good players because we hate seeing ourselves get punished for doing something that should not be punishable. Not to mention the ******** movesets of some of the characters only further promoting a playstyle that is boring while playing and borderline painful to watch from a spectators POV.

What future does a game like this have? Considering the mentality of most people in the world (everyone is livestock; sheep desperately seeking out something to cling to and follow blindly), I would not be surprised if Brawl had some early success for tournaments, but I cannot imagine a group of people following this game and being as devoted as the real smash community has been to the games that paved the way for smash to be considered a fighting game. Brawl is a game that does not deserve the intelligence and talent of the high caliber individuals/players that have populated Smash's following throughout the life of 64 and melee.

 

[Teczer0]

Cactus is awesome.

 

[Aesir]

Cactuar you should be a writer.

 

[Skler]

Cactuar should be my husband.