Sakurai doesn't deserve the bashing he gets for brawl.

[Stratford]

I still love him.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

u mad? Melee players don't even care about brawl anymore. We don't get mad off the fact that brawl sucks compared to melee, I mean, of couse we were disappointed, but thats not the reason. The reason is because since a sequel to our game came out our game gets automatically pronounced dead or outdated by scrubs. And the fact that scrubs confuse "better" and "new", brawl is new, not better. And lastly we get angered that brawl takes away from our community. Out of every 20 noobs that want to be a competitive smasher how many do you think will pick melee over brawl? Not many since brawl is new, easier, and has more characters which covers the fact that it's not better.

I personly don't hate sakurai, I hate brawl. Maybe on the next ssb sakurai will get lucky again and make a deep fighter.

You just read my ****ing mind. Casual gamers are stupid. As long as something looks cool the game is gonna sell. More characters, story mode, good graphics, and final smashes are noob heaven no matter how the physics engine works.

Congrats, you just earned a spot on my Bulletin Board material for my sig. Your post was that truthy. :bigthumbu

Now, why exactly haven't the brass put this one in the slammer, Iunno.

 

[Exceladon City]

Ask Atomsk if he appreciates tripping for losing him hundreds of dollars,

Spoiler

Psssst....I bet the answer is no

Here's some irony. Atomsk mains Dedede, who is voiced by Sakurai himself, who put tripping in this game.

 

[Dsull]

my only issue with Sunshine was the controls and lack of level uniqueness. A lot of the levels were slight variations of the last, not many if any tweaks other than the landscape being Turn Left Here instead of Go Right Here.
Controls pissed me off more tho. i still played it cuz itwas a fun idea, just unfinished. When Jr took your water gun holy crap the controls took a **** on you, and i thought they were bad before lol.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Congrats, you just earned a spot on my Bulletin Board material for my sig. Your post was that truthy. :bigthumbu

Now, why exactly haven't the brass put this one in the slammer, Iunno.

I did good?

 

[Big-Cat]

I knew you were going to rear your head into this. It was just a matter of time.

Remember, the game is not designed for any of you. Brawl is designed as a 4vs game and stages and items go into the balancing process. To us who played this way (which is most Smash fans), Melee was flat out broken. Too many characters ***** while a lot sucked. Brawl got it right and the characters are overall, better balanced.

Every time you go into a thread about the oh so despised competitive community and Smash in the competitive environment, you mention this. Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? I'd be one thing if the game worked like this only, but it doesn't. We have several different modes which include turning off items, and stages are solely up to whoever is playing. Other fighters do not have this *debatable* luxury expanded on as Smash. For the most part, the only options they have are character costumes, number of rounds, time limit, handicap, and in some games weapon or something similar. I wish the other communities would understand this.

And I still cannot understand how you say items and stages are involved in the balancing process yet you have mentioned in the past that it's deemed irrelevant or some other stupid ****. You don't know as much as you think you do, and none of us know any more than you do.

Just quit trying to push people into thinking one way of playing is wrong. Every time I see it, you act more and more of a scrub.

The competitive community creates the broken game. If the game is balanced with all these elements in mind, it will only make sense that the game will change when elements are removed and rules skewed. The Metagame played in the competitive community is not the metagame that was designed for Brawl, so no one would have know who would be good in this environment, and neither would they care.

Funny how you say this, yet metagame refers to what happens outside of the game, in our case, thanks to the players. Again, regarding balance, it makes sense to think that removing elements of the game screws with the balance, but I'm sure it's a different thing when said elements can removed since there is no right or wrong way to play Smash in terms of rulesets and that does not include things where beginners don't want to pull stuff off on others or themselves when they deem it "cheap."

I read that thread at SRK the other day. The first quote just sums up what is natural for people to do: Expect the sequel to be the same as before, but better,. However, that's more often than not not well received because it's not different enough.

However, I will agree that this community is more or less the laughing stock amongst fighting game fans.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

I did good?

You did good, son.

My sig has a section called "Bulletin Board Material" filled with things that are definitely worth repeating.

On point: Something tells me this topic has already been made before...

 

[ETWIST51294]

YAY!!! I DID GOOD FOR ONCE!!!

I think this thread is still open because no one is flaming each other. Well, except the post above yours. lol

 

[BEES]

Remember, the game is not designed for any of you. Brawl is designed as a 4vs game and stages and items go into the balancing process. To us who played this way (which is most Smash fans), Melee was flat out broken. Too many characters ***** while a lot sucked. Brawl got it right and the characters are overall, better balanced.

Yes it is. The game is designed for a variety of playstyles. They have an option to turn items off FOR A REASON. The reason is that many people like playing 1v1 no items on balanced stages. It's wrongheaded to think that 90% of people who picked up a copy of Smash Bros just wanted a party game. Melee made the franchise popular because of the people who liked playing it semi-seriously.

Yeah, semi-serious players. The real fanbase behind Smash Bros. They won't go to real tournaments, they won't learn to l-cancel or wavedash reliably, but they'll play like tourney players do. They'll master the basic elements of the game, the mindgames, and maybe go to dorm tournaments or other smaller events. For every competitive player, there have to be at least 10 of these, and they're not happy with some of the things in Brawl. None of them liked tripping. None of them liked the lack of combos.

And the balance is no better in Brawl. It is literally no better than it was in Melee. I don't know where you get this opinion from, but it's objectively wrong. Arguably the balance is worse. Brawl has 1 god tier character with no counters and a bunch of high tiers with their own 90-10 matchups. There is less to distinguish between the skill levels of different players, so it is harder to fight a hard counter and win in Brawl than it is in Melee.

 

[superyoshi888]

You just read my ****ing mind. Casual gamers are stupid. As long as something looks cool the game is gonna sell. More characters, story mode, good graphics, and final smashes are noob heaven no matter how the physics engine works.

....And this is where I draw the line.

Let me say something: WE ALL WERE CASUAL GAMERS AT ONE POINT IN OUR LIVES! Now, I too was this way for a while. I didn't really become hardcore(that term is a load of ****) until I was in middle school.

When I was younger, I played SSB64 and had the time of my life. Now, when Melee came out, I started playing it more. Why? Was it the better graphics? More characters(may have affected it)? Adventure Mode? No. It was because it was a great game, and I could see that the first time I picked up the Gamecube controller on that fateful day in Wal-Mart.

Also, anyone who bashes Sakurai for what he did to Brawl needs to go play Kirby's Adventure. Quality doesn't depend on some god foresaken hit stun, even if it does make the game "more fun" for you guys.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I didn't give a crap when I was a noob. If it was new I thought it was better. Simple as that. I know a **** load of casual players and all of them are stubborn and they think anything thats new is better.

 

[SmashChu]

Link. Too lazy. :V

@SmashChu: Why is Brawl+ so stupid? We don't like the game, so we aren't playing it; we're playing it the way we want to. That simple.

For the reasons it says. Play Brawl as Brawl. Not as Melee 2.0. The whole point is to try and make it competitive rather then shutting up and playing Brawl. Street Fighter 3 has the same complaints as Brwl does but never was there a hack to make SF3 like it's predecessor.

****ing LOL @ your whole post. you've gotta be joking if you think most smash fans are gonna notice ANY sort of balance issue. their stupidity and ignorance is what started the whole "tiers don't exist" bull****. they just go into vs mode turn on items and play on temple. brawl is just as bad as melee is when it comes to balance even when you account for items and stupid stages. just try to tell me that sheik vs ganon is a fair matchup in any situation or that links final smash brings him up to meta knights level.

the game wasn't made with any sense of balance in mind which is why we have **** like grab releases, planking, momentum canceling, tripping, and all the other stupid **** that was put into brawl.

Occma's razor.The simplest answer is the best.

Everyone understands that Smash is different with things like items, FS, lots of stages and with 4 players. People complain that "tier don't exist." They are hostile towards the competitive community. Don't you think that maybe their game is different, not that they are stupid.

Sorry, but Brawl is balanced, as much as you'd think otherwise. For people like me, who play with items and 4 players, it's balanced. For you, it's broken. The onl;y way to make it balance is to hack it and look like little kids or to play the way it was designed.

Competitive Brawl is broken because of the bottle neck. Did any of you notice how you turn almost everything off? And did any of you think "If I turn this off, how will it effect the game?" I guess not.

I knew you were going to rear your head into this. It was just a matter of time.

Every time you go into a thread about the oh so despised competitive community and Smash in the competitive environment, you mention this. Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? I'd be one thing if the game worked like this only, but it doesn't. We have several different modes which include turning off items, and stages are solely up to whoever is playing. Other fighters do not have this *debatable* luxury expanded on as Smash. For the most part, the only options they have are character costumes, number of rounds, time limit, handicap, and in some games weapon or something similar. I wish the other communities would understand this.

For your assumption to be right, it would me that things like items, final smashes, the stages, and the four player nature, were not part of the balance which is illogical. If they are part of the game, they would also be part of the game's balance. You'd have to try and proce why they would not be part of the balance. It only make sense to think the game is designed as a 4 player game because that's how everyone sees it.

And I still cannot understand how you say items and stages are involved in the balancing process yet you have mentioned in the past that it's deemed irrelevant or some other stupid ****. You don't know as much as you think you do, and none of us know any more than you do.

Just quit trying to push people into thinking one way of playing is wrong. Every time I see it, you act more and more of a scrub.

Bolded sentence makes no sense.
The truth of the matter is that as long as the bottle neck exist, the game is be a mess. Sakurai didn't make it a mess. If he was so bad at making games, then why was Melee "amazing?"
Occma's razor.

I hate the word scrub because it just describes someone who is not you. The Smash community hates the competitive community because the competitive community thinks they are stupid and are scrubs. I'm glad that Sakurai doesn't care about you.

Funny how you say this, yet metagame refers to what happens outside of the game, in our case, thanks to the players. Again, regarding balance, it makes sense to think that removing elements of the game screws with the balance, but I'm sure it's a different thing when said elements can removed since there is no right or wrong way to play Smash in terms of rulesets and that does not include things where beginners don't want to pull stuff off on others or themselves when they deem it "cheap."

First, well, perhaps I'm using Metagame wrong then.

Understand though that while some elements can be turn on or off, competitive Brawl turns almost all of them off. Let's look at them individually.

Items: None
Final Smashes: None
Stages: Only about 50% of them (at most) are available. Most of the time, it's a handful of them.
Players: Reduced from four to two

It's also the rules and strategies. The game is suppose to go to sudden death when the stock is tied, but competitive Smash ignores this and goes who the player with the least amount of damage. This gives characters like Meta-Knight (and Fox in Melee) a distinct advantage, which may be nulled or dulled if the game was allowed to proceed as such. Also, strategies like planking can change the game's balance which may not have been seen by the developers (which is a common trait in fighting games). So, it's a lot of things.

I read that thread at SRK the other day. The first quote just sums up what is natural for people to do: Expect the sequel to be the same as before, but better,. However, that's more often than not not well received because it's not different enough.

Of course, Brawl was different enough.

SF4 had complaints as well because it removed parries. That why the person said Brawl+ is dumb. Everyone complains about a new game because it's either not the same or different, so just play it.

Yes it is. The game is designed for a variety of playstyles. They have an option to turn items off FOR A REASON. The reason is that many people like playing 1v1 no items on balanced stages. It's wrongheaded to think that 90% of people who picked up a copy of Smash Bros just wanted a party game. Melee made the franchise popular because of the people who liked playing it semi-seriously.

From my experience, most people pick it up as a good multiplayer game and play it as a 4vs game, not a 1v1 fighter. Smash's competitive community has always been small, both relatively and absolutely. This is why the game is balanced more for 4vs kind of play.

Yeah, semi-serious players. The real fanbase behind Smash Bros. They won't go to real tournaments, they won't learn to l-cancel or wavedash reliably, but they'll play like tourney players do. They'll master the basic elements of the game, the mindgames, and maybe go to dorm tournaments or other smaller events. For every competitive player, there have to be at least 10 of these, and they're not happy with some of the things in Brawl. None of them liked tripping. None of them liked the lack of combos.

lol NOPE. Most people do not play like that. Most small tournaments even make the game 4vs. If most players play 1v1, why is the game not focused as a 1v1 fighter. It's always seen as a 4 player game and that's what Smash identifies wit.

And the balance is no better in Brawl. It is literally no better than it was in Melee. I don't know where you get this opinion from, but it's objectively wrong. Arguably the balance is worse. Brawl has 1 god tier character with no counters and a bunch of high tiers with their own 90-10 matchups. There is less to distinguish between the skill levels of different players, so it is harder to fight a hard counter and win in Brawl than it is in Melee.

Put on Final Smashes and watch the tier list go bonkers. Also, why is Ike and Marth appear more then Meta-Knight online?

It's no surprise that most of you don't know anything about the community outside of here. We play the game as a 4 player game, with every stage, and items (on or off). Competitive Smash is restrictive while normal Smash is holistic.

 

[bobson]

Competitive smashers are a minority of the consumer base playing a game the way it wasn't meant to be played. Complaining about Brawl having uncompetitive elements is and has always been a worthless endeavor that only makes you look like a fool.

 

[n88]

A) Why people find the need to flame each other over which video game is better is beyond me. It's an opinion. People are allowed to have opinions.
B) Sakurai does take a bit too much bashing; he was not the only guy to work on the game.
C) Citing Brawl as the worst game ever because it's not created for competitives is a bad idea. Listen to bobson.
D) But it's still okay to bash Sakurai for tripping.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Sakurai get's just enough Bashing Because of one word....

Tripping there I said it.

 

[Big-Cat]

B) Sakurai does take a bit too much bashing; he was not the only guy to work on the game.

Technically, he was.

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/article.php?id=5437

After talking to Sakurai for over an hour, one thing is very clear: he uses the word 'I' a lot. In an age where games are made by hundreds of people though, as opposed to the old days of lone programmers in their bedrooms, surely he doesn't make all the decisions by himself? "I decide what goes in the game; nobody else." Oh, right. "But when it comes to the characters," he continues, "there's a degree of balance to getting it right. The popularity of the character is important, for instance, as is the consideration of whether the character has a unique ability that only he, she or it can bring to the game."

By saying this very line, he made himself the single target of hate. If he never said that, people would've put the hate on all the people involved in general.

 

[n88]

@Kuma

No, I think people would have directed the hate at him anyway, although he may have justified it by saying that. But when I say he isn't the only person to work on the game, I mean that I've heard him blamed for ridiculous things like, for instance, trophy descriptions. I seriously doubt that Sakurai wrote the trophy descriptions.

 

[PKNintendo]

My problem with Sakurai is the fact that he didn't even remotely try to balance the game. Why can't he be like the guys at valve or other games that get patches. He's stubborn and unmoving an some gameplay idea's are just plain retared.

He's also really biased when it comes to character design.

 

[EPsilon933]

Did Sakurai make a new version of barlw that has tripping removed, character balance, less stage hazardy stages, less overpowered campiness, depth, letc? Because if he did, he should deserve a thumbs up for his apology.

Oh, wait, the guys that made Brawl+ did that, not Sakurai. Those guys deserve a thumbs up.

 

[bobson]

My problem with Sakurai is the fact that he didn't even remotely try to balance the game.

Spoken like a man who has never designed anything in his life.

 

[@tomic]

Clearly Sakurai's sole intent with this game was to piss people off and make them rage at each other.

Somewhere out there he is reading this thread and laughing his *** off.

 

[superyoshi888]

My problem with Sakurai is the fact that he didn't even remotely try to balance the game. Why can't he be like the guys at valve or other games that get patches. He's stubborn and unmoving an some gameplay idea's are just plain retared.

Do you even understand how a Wii disc works? It is impossible to patch a game not designed to do so. Hell....I think it is impossible to patch a Wii disc period.

The only likely way this could be done would be to set up a channel like the HBC, download the latest changes, and then run the disc from that channel. Nintendo will never do this, even for Brawl. I know MKWii had a dedicated channel, but that was merely for online rankings IIRC.

In short, it isn't Sakurai's fault that Brawl can't be patched. It's just one of the many issues the Wii has. It's a shame too, cause a channel like that with downloads for stages in NSMBW would be pretty dang awesome.

 

[Alphatron]

OK then. enjoy brawl. You guys get bashed by every other fighting game out there, why should I add on...

...You guys? Don't you mean WE guys? As in the entirety of the smash bros. community?


I honestly didn't mean for this thread to devolve into flames or anything. I just didn't see why Sakurai should recieve so much hate. Indeed, his intentions for brawl were silly and he made some really stupid decisions. However, that's one game and he may have learned from his mistakes by the time he makes his next game.

 

[tirkaro]

Eh, this topic is devolving into flames anyway, so why not.

For the reasons it says. Play Brawl as Brawl. Not as Melee 2.0. The whole point is to try and make it competitive rather then shutting up and playing Brawl. Street Fighter 3 has the same complaints as Brwl does but never was there a hack to make SF3 like it's predecessor.

Congratulations: you managed to make a post so stupid, you've forced me to crawl out of the woodwork of lurking. That's a real feat right there.

I've noticed all your objections with brawl+ have only amounted to, "This isn't the way it was meant to be played."
Tell me, can you give me any real reasons as to why brawl+=bad? The only complaints I've ever seen for it was that hacking games to be more competitive has never been done before. That's it. Is there a reason why hacking it makes them "childish," besides the fact that the Steet Fighter community didn't do it? No, there isn't. All this amounts to is some "moral choice," since you apparently think there are morals applied to a cold, hard piece of software created by a multi billion dollar company for no reason other than to make money.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are actually, y'know, having fun playing Brawl+. The one with gameplay that's actually enjoyable to us. Apparently, a game is automatically evil if it wasn't made without the consent of a big professional company.

Oh, and I was actually wrong for a bit there. This whole "hacking a game to make it different" thing has been done before. And do you know what was born from it? Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, and DoTA just to name a few.

Occma's razor.The simplest answer is the best.

His name's Occam.

Everyone understands that Smash is different with things like items, FS, lots of stages and with 4 players. People complain that "tier don't exist." They are hostile towards the competitive community. Don't you think that maybe their game is different, not that they are stupid.

Sorry, but Brawl is balanced, as much as you'd think otherwise. For people like me, who play with items and 4 players, it's balanced. For you, it's broken. The onl;y way to make it balance is to hack it and look like little kids or to play the way it was designed.

No spit.
If you took the entire cast of Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX (The most broken fighting game I can dare to think of) and add it a bunch of random events such as Stage Hazards and Random Items, and made the whole game 4 player FFA, it would obviously be balanced as the game no longer relies on skill anymore. Luck and good ol' fashioned Bull****tery would be the major deciding factor of every match, no matter how much "balance" is put into a game. EVO 08 is a PRIME example of this.

Competitive Brawl is broken because of the bottle neck. Did any of you notice how you turn almost everything off? And did any of you think "If I turn this off, how will it effect the game?" I guess not.

Yes. The game now actually depends on skill. Your point?

For your assumption to be right, it would me that things like items, final smashes, the stages, and the four player nature, were not part of the balance which is illogical. If they are part of the game, they would also be part of the game's balance. You'd have to try and proce why they would not be part of the balance. It only make sense to think the game is designed as a 4 player game because that's how everyone sees it.

WHAT

Okay, at least your other statements had at least some level of opinions behind it. This statement is just flat out wrong.
First off, Items and the like were never meant to be part of the game's balance. There is literally nothing besides your thoughts of yours that support this as fact.
Shortly after Brawl's NA release, Nintendo held a tournament that was 1v1 with items on. The reasoning for the items was simply because so that the newbie players would stand a ghost of a chance against more experienced players. That's all. They're just there to add an aiding factor of Randomness and bull****tery. It's simply there for the n00bs, and the n00bs only, who put this game on the same level as Mario Party. As much as Sakurai did a poor job of it, he at least attempted to balance out the characters for serious players, and that's all the proof you need that whatever amount of Balance was put in was meant for 1v1 with no items, and that's all. There's really no reason to balance out something that's dependent on luck.

Bolded sentence makes no sense.
The truth of the matter is that as long as the bottle neck exist, the game is be a mess. Sakurai didn't make it a mess. If he was so bad at making games, then why was Melee "amazing?"

As said before, Melee was amazing by fluke. Sakurai isn't good at making fighting games.

Occma's razor.

William of Occam is unamused by your mispellings.

I hate the word scrub because it just describes someone who is not you. The Smash community hates the competitive community because the competitive community thinks they are stupid and are scrubs. I'm glad that Sakurai doesn't care about you.

wat.
Scrubs are not people different from competitives. A scrub is someone who can't accept anything, and makes up their own set of morals in their head. Someone saying, "SMASH SHOULD ONLY BE PLAYED WITH ITEMS ON RUMBLE FALLS/TEMPLE/75m, SINCE PLAYING 1v1 ON FD MAKES YOU A TOURNEY***" is a scrub. Someone saying "ADVANCED TECHNIQUES SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE I CAN'T DO THEM" is a scrub. And you, saying "MAKING THE GAME MORE FUN VIA HACKING, PLAYING 1v1, AND TURNING OFF ITEMS ISN'T RIGHT" makes you a big, All-the-floors-in-Hyrule cleaning SCRUB.

It's also the rules and strategies. The game is suppose to go to sudden death when the stock is tied, but competitive Smash ignores this and goes who the player with the least amount of damage. This gives characters like Meta-Knight (and Fox in Melee) a distinct advantage, which may be nulled or dulled if the game was allowed to proceed as such.

Poor game design pretty much forced this.
After a while in Sudden Death, Bob-ombs start to rain down randomly upon the stage. This one factor is just way to random, even more so than items to an extent. The very deciding factor of the game is pretty much put on "who is lucky enough not to get hit by a bob-omb." But you probably already know that. I just wanted to point that out because, just like I said before, Brawl Metagame relies on skill. Replace that skill with randomness, and balance is thrown out the window. There would be no reason for any sort of balance for a completely random game. That's just common sense.

Of course, Brawl was different enough.

SF4 had complaints as well because it removed parries. That why the person said Brawl+ is dumb. Everyone complains about a new game because it's either not the same or different, so just play it.

You're missing one crucial factor though:
Unlike Sakurai/Nintendo, Capcom actually cares about it's fans beyond their money. That's why Capcom released Second Impact and Third Strike. That's why Capcom is making Super Street Fighter 4. That's why ArcSys made Continuum Shift.
But anything like that for Brawl? Nope. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Basically, the fans decided to do what Nintendo is too stingy to care about, and make their own 3rd Strike/Continuum Shift/Super. There's literally no difference, except Brawl+ is unauthorized. That's all.

Oh, and this was being done with PC games for years. The only reason why some idiots are hostile towards B+ is because such a thing has never been done before with console games. And it would have probably been done earlier if there was a system as easy to hack as the Wii before.

From my experience, most people pick it up as a good multiplayer game and play it as a 4vs game, not a 1v1 fighter. Smash's competitive community has always been small, both relatively and absolutely. This is why the game is balanced more for 4vs kind of play.


lol NOPE. Most people do not play like that. Most small tournaments even make the game 4vs. If most players play 1v1, why is the game not focused as a 1v1 fighter. It's always seen as a 4 player game and that's what Smash identifies wit.

Please point me to these people, because I can't find them anywhere.
No really. The only people I can see playing like the way you describe are the typical CASUAAAAAAAAL families shown in those Wii commercials. Pretty much every one of my friends who play this game are complete casual***s to the 3rd power, and none of them play 4v with Items on. Especially not with items. NOBODY I know likes playing with items in Brawl. And for a good reason. The items in Brawl are completely broken, even for a completely random hazard. I mean, while the past items are pretty bullspit, the Brawl items are just so random and over-the-top, they pretty much suck all the fun away from the fight.

Same goes with stages. Even my own FAMILY hates stages like 75m, Mario Bros, Flat Zone 2, and Rumble Falls. I honestly can't find a single casual*** who likes all the stages in Brawl. Even THEY think they're too bull-infested to have any fun with.

But as for just 4v FFA on a normal stage with no items, well....it's not tournament standard, but it's still pretty competitive. At least there's no random spit going on everywhere. But that's mostly because most FFAs devolve into 2v2 matches anyway, so yeah.

So really, I'm exactly denying the fact that people like you exist....but if you do, I can't find you anywhere. Though personally, I think you just play this way just to spite Competitive players, and nothing else.

Also, why is Ike and Marth appear more then Meta-Knight online?

Because With Anyone sucks and there's no point to developing a metagame for it.
Also, Ken is spammed on SF4 online, even though he's low tier.

It's no surprise that most of you don't know anything about the community outside of here. We play the game as a 4 player game, with every stage, and items (on or off). Competitive Smash is restrictive while normal Smash is holistic.

For the record, is there any place where you casualites hang out on the interwebs? Because even GameFaqs is pretty competitive, so I'm stumped.


And you know what's sad? Despite the fact that I spend a good chunk of my afternoon posting this message just to disagree with someone, I bet Sakurai is out there, looking at these threads, and saying

 

[superyoshi888]

IIRC, this game was originally supposed to be more like Melee in terms of mechanics. Sakurai and his team changed that to make it more "casual friendly." If anything, you guys should be hating on the Wii for bringing this mindset to your sacred gameplay.

 

[theunabletable]

Does anybody bash Miyamoto for Adventure of Link

I applaud Miyamoto for Adventue of Link, actually. The only game in the series that took the series in a COMPLETELY different direction.

Even if it didn't work out so well, I think it was great of him to try something new, unlike games like Twilight Princess.

The only games that were even close to as different as AoL were MM and maybe LA (I guess now I should say ST; because it does add a lot of new things to the series).

 

[JOE!]

My problem with Sakurai is the fact that he didn't even remotely try to balance the game.

You do realize what a challenge it is to balance a game with 40ish (counting PT pokemon, Zelda + Shiek) characters, and about the same number of stages to be played on? (i doubt any of the developers new any of the stages besides the obvious FD, BF, etc wouldnt be banned outright for play)

especially if his claim is true that Sakurai himself was the life-blood of Brawl, that is one dude in control of determining balance between...lesse:

39 chars x 39 chars = 1521 x 40 stages = 60,840 possible things to consider balance wise (hell, for all we know he could have thought MK was fine, in that some stages were bad for him during testing). In another note, as I think someone mentioned: multiply the 60,840 by 1521 again to see how many options there are when it comes to 4-player.

thats alot of variables to go over, not just "oh, how well does ganon do vs Shiek on a neutral stage?"

bringing that up, nobody on the dev team propably had any inkling of how the metagame for smash would turn out amongst the competitive players. Sure, they propably knew that some characters would be better than others, but they also may have figured stage choice or the fact some people are better vs other characters than others to balance it out. They had no clue as to what the game would turn into, I mean did they think pika would ruin the Spacies?

Speaking of, DDD's CG was actually put in on purpose to help him rack damage. If you think about it, if he didnt have that grab range, how threatening of a character would he be? Same goes to other characters like say, the Ice Climbers. They were aware of the Melee tiers, and must have known about Chaingrabs for the IC's. However, ever consider Tripping may have been implemented to help the victims of Chaingrabs? It could have been seen slearly in develpoment that DDD's CG may have been good, but he can trip during it can the opponent can turn the tables. Or that nana could trip and screw over a player's work, and stopping an infinite (however, the ICs have excellent traction to help out players who try to CG..)

eh, my 2 cents

He's also really biased when it comes to character design.

again, he most likley had little to no idea how everythign would turn out due to the whole web of possibilities i mentioned above. Sure, he could have made MK a little less well-rounded in terms of damage racking and killing potential, among other things, but at the same time, he's beatable, aint he?

 

[SmashChu]

@tirkaro: i really wish i could reply to you, but I have no time. What an awful post.

First, your dumb to think that items didn't play a part in the game's balance. Of course they did. They are part of the game, and being good with items is on of the character's strength or weaknesses. There is no sound reason to think otherwise besides you are biased against them. Obviously, you are. If you knew items (and you don't) you'd see the balance first hand, in how characters swing their weapons and how items effect them. There is depth, and this is why CPU beat your pressious Ken.

Also, Brawl+ is stupid. Play Melee instead. Like the comment said, play SF Alpha 3 was played as Alpha 3, SF3 was played as SF3, and SF4 is played as SF4. They play the games for what they are, not complaining because what you want them to be. Marvel vs Capcom is more broken then Brawl could ever be and there is no hack or attempt to ban anyone or any of that. Yet people love that game and play it in all it's broken glory. So, tell me why you all are so dead set on making a different game. This is why everyone thinks you're little kids.

I speak on behalf of all the other Smash fans, because I am one. I'm the one you guys spit on and call a scrub because I like things like items, and am not biased towards them. So, naturally, I love to see things like Sakurai with Brawl and 4chan raiding you 4 times.

 

[Big-Cat]

First, your dumb to think that items didn't play a part in the game's balance. Of course they did. They are part of the game, and being good with items is on of the character's strength or weaknesses. There is no sound reason to think otherwise besides you are biased against them. Obviously, you are. If you knew items (and you don't) you'd see the balance first hand, in how characters swing their weapons and how items effect them. There is depth, and this is why CPU beat your pressious Ken.

Then explain all the broken items, the random outcomes on Pokeballs, ATs, and smartbombs, and just the general serendipity of what items pop up and where.

Also, Brawl+ is stupid. Play Melee instead. Like the comment said, play SF Alpha 3 was played as Alpha 3, SF3 was played as SF3, and SF4 is played as SF4. They play the games for what they are, not complaining because what you want them to be. Marvel vs Capcom is more broken then Brawl could ever be and there is no hack or attempt to ban anyone or any of that. Yet people love that game and play it in all it's broken glory. So, tell me why you all are so dead set on making a different game. This is why everyone thinks you're little kids.

I said this earlier, but I guess I'll have to say it again: Smash has the luxury of having way more options than most fighters allow. The largest of these is items which affects the gameplay completely when you have them on or off. The competitive community believes that competitions should be based on skills with the characters, not with items or stage hazards.

I speak on behalf of all the other Smash fans, because I am one. I'm the one you guys spit on and call a scrub because I like things like items, and am not biased towards them. So, naturally, I love to see things like Sakurai with Brawl and 4chan raiding you 4 times.

Don't think of yourself so high and mighty. We, or at least I, call you a scrub because you are forcing a gameplay setup on others. It has nothing to do with items. Here's a funny thing, I have noticed a tendency for people to whine about a loss because their opponent got to X broken item. I suppose these people are scrubs as well?

One last thing: I love how you bring up Street Fighter's competitive rules since they're the default, yet you believe that the series is doomed for other reasons.

Like I've said before, Smash is successful in part because the competitive community is ignored. While they don't actively want a harder game, the things they want will indirectly make the game harder. This is why I say Street Fighter is domed because to make a more assessable SF would bring hostility from the competitive players. Smash has not reached that point, so it is a good thing. of course, in Smash, it would work in reverse. The lower end players would be hostile if the game became to hard and competitively focused.

Logically speaking, Smash shouldn't try to borrow anything from them because it makes more money than SF so Sakurai was right to give us multiple options.

 

[Kuraudo]

One of the main reasons why I'm not behind Brawl+ competitively is because unlike Melee & the official Brawl before it, realistically there's too many people that play the actual version of Brawl, that a transition to Brawl+ in big national tournaments like Pound, WHOBO, and the like, is unlikely. And in the end, not worth pursuing in hopes that the game will take off some day and become just as big as Melee and the original Brawl.

Simple as that, from my perspective.

That being said, Brawl+ was hella fun. If it ever did take off and become as big as the original Brawl in the tourney scene, I'd main Charizard and only Charizard. I support and wish the people behind Brawl+ and trying to make it work, the best of luck.

... Ugh. Too much tl;dr in this thread about topics that are stupid enough anyway. Not even gonna bother. lol

 

[bobson]

Then explain all the broken items, the random outcomes on Pokeballs, ATs, and smartbombs, and just the general serendipity of what items pop up and where.

What, exactly, do you want him to explain? That's what items do. In a chaotic atmosphere where stuff like that is showing up all the time, inherent character strengths are less emphasized and there's less chance to abuse them. Ganondorf has a higher chance of winning a match in a free-for-all with items on than a 1v1 with no items in the same way that 12 has a higher chance of being chosen by a random number generator than a number generator that's highly weighted toward other numbers.

 

[Kitamerby]

stuff

Holy hell. That is the most adorable signature I have seen in awhile. Which game are those sprites from?


On a side note, when I feel like just mucking around with friends, there really is no problem with items and a 4 player FFA. Problems only arise when you're actually trying to accomplish something, (which is why Mario Kart Wii is such a ***** to unlock **** in) or when there is actual money on the line.

...At least we don't have Blue Shells. (Thank God. ;-

 

[Kuraudo]

@ Kitamerby

I think you're thinking of Hamtaro. Those cute little critters.

 

[Big-Cat]

What, exactly, do you want him to explain? That's what items do. In a chaotic atmosphere where stuff like that is showing up all the time, inherent character strengths are less emphasized and there's less chance to abuse them. Ganondorf has a higher chance of winning a match in a free-for-all with items on than a 1v1 with no items in the same way that 12 has a higher chance of being chosen by a random number generator than a number generator that's highly weighted toward other numbers.

How do you go about balancing characters with items in mind when a lot of them are broken or are subject to serendipity?

So let me get this straight, you say that items are supposed to balance out the flaws in the character? So by this logic, we should just go ahead and throw out the balance of the characters themselves out of the window. Why not just have everyone play like Mario then while we're at it? This isn't a party game, it's a fighting game at its core.

What the heck are you saying here about random number generators? It's not random if the generator leans towards a select group of numbers. It's random in a fair sense if all the numbers have an equal chance of being generated.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

@OP: I don't really see why it matters, since people will be blaming Sakurai whether he deserves it or not.

 

[BEES]

lol NOPE. Most people do not play like that. Most small tournaments even make the game 4vs. If most players play 1v1, why is the game not focused as a 1v1 fighter. It's always seen as a 4 player game and that's what Smash identifies wit.

This is your opinion. I have my own opinion regarding this matter, and I don't think we can do anything other than offer anecdotal evidence. Competitive Smash can be a 4 player game, and it can be played with items on. It can even be played on all stages. Generally semi-serious players ban items, and ban the most random stages. However, it's quite possible to play the game to enjoy the fighting engine while utilizing items and non-legal stages. I do that plenty of times.

Remember, for every person that goes to tournaments there are at least 10 that play the game the same way, but with no intention of joining the competitive scene. These people are the reason Brawl sold so well. They universally hate tripping, and wish the characters and final smashes were more balanced and fight outcomes were less random. I've spent a lot of time with these people. Some of them can't stand the competitive crowd. They find aspects of the community very obnoxious. At the same time they've still gone back to Melee or hacked their wii to run Brawl+ because they got bored of regular Brawl and wanted a faster game with better balance and more offense.

The only people that know about Brawl+ tend to post on Smashboards or AllisBrawl, but Smashboards and other forums are not a competitive-players-only club. This is a public forum; everyone is welcome here. There are tons of lurkers who never go to tournaments that read this forum obsessively.

Put on Final Smashes and watch the tier list go bonkers. Also, why is Ike and Marth appear more then Meta-Knight online?

It's no surprise that most of you don't know anything about the community outside of here. We play the game as a 4 player game, with every stage, and items (on or off). Competitive Smash is restrictive while normal Smash is holistic.

Final Smashes and Items (all items, not just competitive items) only alleviate the effects of tiers inasmuch as they make the outcome of the fight more random.

 

[n88]

Also, Brawl+ is stupid. Play Melee instead.

Brawl+ is not Melee. It's not even close to being Melee.

 

[Revven]

One thing that really bothers me about Sakurai is that despite all the delays this game had, there's still a chunk of messed up moves, animations, mechanics, and so forth that you start to wonder why the game was delayed so much yet it's still full of all of these horrible things that hurt the characters competitively? I'll give some examples here:

Ganondorf's Fair will often miss when you SHFFL it, it also cannot be AC'd in a full hop or even DJ iirc. The errors are especially shown in two of the new applications Smashers have access to thanks to hacking, BrawlBox and Project Smash Attacks. Ganon's Fair is completely messed up in both animation and how it was programmed in PSA. In PSA, it apparently doesn't have the correct type of timer for it to AC and the animation is so messed up that because it's missing some things that that's why it misses when you SHFFL it or it never really hits anyway.

Then there's Toon Link's Fsmash, the first hit was programmed incorrectly, yet again. Either it was intentional or it wasn't (I'm looking at the former because it's not supposed to be like Link's where only one of the hits will hit, both are supposed to connect together). As with TL's Dsmash, that was ANOTHER thing PSA brought to light as to what the problem was (I've forgotten what it was but, if VietGeek saw this thread he could explain it for me I'm sure). And no, TL's Dsmash problem isn't a glitch, it's literally something Sakurai and his team failed to test properly and fix.

Let's not forget that most Uthrows in this game are generally terrible, this is because they have Weight Dependent knockback, two character's Uthrows who have this (one of them that was previously useful in Melee) have this and those two that I remember off the top of my head are DDD's Uthrow and DK's Utoss (of course almost everyone's Uthrow shares this same thing I just can't be bothered to list it). There's also a lot of throws in this game that have the EXACT same KB values as each other as well as the angles being exactly the same. They all typically share the 169 (361 in decimal) hexadecimal angle, which basically as the more damage you have and the higher the knockback, the angle increases and it also allows the move to have a chance of tripping (except throws) which is why moves like Ganon's Dair trip.

Just the way even some of MK's moves are programmed in PSA makes me kind of rage inside because he didn't bother to really test how potent the tornado is. Obv. it would be pretty hard for him to test but, anyone who has played this game once and fights MK and they do 'nado and when you can't get out by holding up or SDI'ing properly, that's already a problem.

Marth's Fsmash tipper being unSDIable while is both good or bad (depends on perspective) is still showing Sakurai's closed mindedness to some kind of "balance". He's not really consistent with anything in fact.

Captain Falcon's Nair (not many people know this) acts just as Ganondorf's did in Melee. Yep, horrible 2 frame hitboxes (might be off a bit with that).

There's probably some other moves I am forgetting that had some serious problems but, I'm not quite sure what they are right now. If you look at every character's .PAC with Project Smash Attacks, you will just faint at how many moves in this game have the 169 angle, it's just ridiculous, and shows how in part Sakurai and his team may have been quite lazy with developing characters. And you will also faint at how the KBG/BKB for a lot moves are in this game, MANY of them have roughly the same KB or have terrible KB settings and that's why they're such bad moves to use in the first place.

What am I getting at with this post? Well, people hate on Sakurai because even though he delayed the game so many times it still feels horribly rushed and half *****. It's completely evident with Project Smash Attacks and the other game modes, we even have a computer program to make stage builder stages without as many restrictions as the game's own stage builder has!

It's just... a mix of overhyped and rushed feeling that makes people hate on Sakurai (and tripping), myself included.

 

[Kitamerby]

@ Kitamerby

I think you're thinking of Hamtaro. Those cute little critters.

Yeah, but I don't remember any Hamtaro games with sprites as large as those. Maybe they had a DS game I haven't heard about. I should check The Spriter's Resource, if it's still up.

 

[tirkaro]

@tirkaro: i really wish i could reply to you, but I have no time. What an awful post.

Didn't you just reply to me?

First, your dumb to think that items didn't play a part in the game's balance. Of course they did. They are part of the game, and being good with items is on of the character's strength or weaknesses. There is no sound reason to think otherwise besides you are biased against them. Obviously, you are. If you knew items (and you don't) you'd see the balance first hand, in how characters swing their weapons and how items effect them. There is depth, and this is why CPU beat your pressious Ken.

I have no idea where you're getting at.

If an item spawns near you, it spawns near you. It doesn't matter if you're using Metaknight against Ganon. If a Smart bomb/Pokemon/Assist trophy spawns right near Ganon, he's getting it, no matter what. I know items well enough, I've been forced to plod through Classic mode plenty of times, and I can't count the amount of bullcrap KOs I've gotten simply because a Smart Bomb spawned close to the opponent.

And your argument is....some characters swing the Home Run Bat/Beam sword differently? Seriously, I have no idea what point you're trying to prove your point with, other than the fact that you seem to believe there's some sort of convoluted "balance" to a completely random factor. Just face it: the only sort of "balance" there is for items is to provide a handicap for n00bs. Add a dominating factor of Randomness, and everyone's balanced. I guess I can give you that.
I suppose the point you're trying to make is that there's some sort of technique to using/throwing items. Problem is, that's only one, tiny factor in comparison to the HUGE factor: items are random. That is all.

Also, Brawl+ is stupid. Play Melee instead. Like the comment said, play SF Alpha 3 was played as Alpha 3, SF3 was played as SF3, and SF4 is played as SF4. They play the games for what they are, not complaining because what you want them to be. Marvel vs Capcom is more broken then Brawl could ever be and there is no hack or attempt to ban anyone or any of that. Yet people love that game and play it in all it's broken glory. So, tell me why you all are so dead set on making a different game. This is why everyone thinks you're little kids.

tl;dr: you pretty much proved my point. You only hate B+ because it hasn't been done before. You give absolutely no reason beyond that point. Exactly. Good day. Also,

Brawl+ is not Melee. It's not even close to being Melee.

I speak on behalf of all the other Smash fans, because I am one. I'm the one you guys spit on and call a scrub because I like things like items, and am not biased towards them.

We don't spit in your face because you like items. We spit in your face because you act like a whiny little prick.

So, naturally, I love to see things like Sakurai with Brawl and 4chan raiding you 4 times.

4chan never raided us since 2007. Also, I've played a lot of people on /v/ using Brawl's horrible online. None of them used items. Seriously, even though you claim you item-using, 4v FFA playing casuals are the majority, you sure seem to be a minority.