Sakurai doesn't deserve the bashing he gets for brawl.

[Meru.]

I agree with Falco400. Some moves are just... stupid.

 

[superyoshi888]

tirkaro....you know you can smash DI out of a Smart Bomb explosion, right?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Unfortunately pure veterans thought that way before the game came out. It's dumb thinking because it was all part of Sakurai's plan. He knew the game would be anticipated by everyone so he made the demo which had l-canceling and what not but then evened things out to support the casual audience. The casuals were giving more money than us and Brawl was perfect to get Ninty a ton a money.

Sakurai wanted everyone to enjoy the game to some extent and 4 the most part he succeeded. It's also dumb that people thought Sakurai would take a purely competitive game (not intented) and improve strictly on that.

 

[theunabletable]

Also, Brawl+ is stupid. Play Melee instead. Like the comment said, play SF Alpha 3 was played as Alpha 3, SF3 was played as SF3, and SF4 is played as SF4. They play the games for what they are, not complaining because what you want them to be. Marvel vs Capcom is more broken then Brawl could ever be and there is no hack or attempt to ban anyone or any of that. Yet people love that game and play it in all it's broken glory. So, tell me why you all are so dead set on making a different game. This is why everyone thinks you're little kids.

You've yet to say what is ACTUALLY wrong with playing a hacked game. Just because other communities are willing to play their game without changes, doesn't mean we HAVE to.

Maybe someone prefers a more balanced game.

I don't personally play Brawl+, but that probably has more to do with all of SoCal despising it. They're completely different games, and you should treat them as such.

He knew the game would be anticipated by everyone so he made the demo which had l-canceling and what not but then evened things out to support the casual audience.

Wait the demo had L-cancelling?!

What are all the differences between the final game and the demo?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You've yet to say what is ACTUALLY wrong with playing a hacked game. Just because other communities are willing to play their game without changes, doesn't mean we HAVE to.

Maybe someone prefers a more balanced game.

I don't personally play Brawl+, but that probably has more to do with all of SoCal despising it. They're completely different games, and you should treat them as such. Wait the demo had L-cancelling?!

What are all the differences between the final game and the demo?

Theoretically the overal hack is still worst than Melee. It's better competitive wise but people still prefer Melee more than the hack.

 

[theunabletable]

^And that's fine. You can have a preference.

But elitists should just stop bashing other people's games and play their own if they love it so much.

If you dislike their game, don't talk about it; because it doesn't affect you in anyway.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I agree with everything that guy said.

But there is one thing that you wrote thats kind irking me. How is melee unbalanced when we STILL don't know who the best character is? M2K thinks its puff now and lots of people think its falco, some still thinks its fox, sheik, or marth. no one knows.. The low tiers under ylink do suck though...

What?

That doesn't matter. There's a massive difference in metagame value between Pichu, Kirby, Yoshi, Mew2, Roy, Bowser, etc compared to the spacies, Jiggs, Marth, Falcon and Sheik.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Sakurai wanted everyone to enjoy the game to some extent and 4 the most part he succeeded. It's also dumb that people thought Sakurai would take a purely competitive game (not intented) and improve strictly on that.

How exactly is melee purely competitive? You can't have Item FFAs on Temple in Melee or something?

This is the problem. Melee was a great casual game, but also a great competitive one. Sakurai wanted to make the game non competitive, despite the past game working wonders for both casual and competitive.

Smash by it's very nature, smash (including Melee and 64) is casual. Who doesn't like being bowser fighting against your friends ganondorf? The games inherently fulfill casual players needs, leaving room for him to work on competitive.

Lets be honest, there are literally 100 times the amount of casual smashers that have never heard or gone to smashboards as there are competitive players. They don't really notice that you can just grab the ledge for eight minutes, that the best way to win is to spam and run out the clock, That D3 can randomly infinite like 8 characters, That MK is strictly better than the cast, That a million other things. They spend their time having fun with the game. There is nothing wrong with this. The problem is that they could do this in Melee too, but in brawl, competitive is much more degenerate, and the games mechanics don't work very well when you dig even a little.

This is the problem. He ha proven that he is capable of making a game that both groups like, yet he chose to exclude and attack a single one in favor of the other. Yes, there are more casual players than competitive ones, but why would you make 90% of the community happy, and 10% mad, when you could make 100% happy?

He deserves every bit of hate he gets for his ignorance and stupidity.

 

[Veril]

Brawl is absolutely riddled with flaws that just kill the fun of it, even in casual play. The saving grace of this game is that we can hack it.

Casual players aren't dumb. They can and do recognize the horrible reality of this game. I've watched it happen with so many people who just realize how shallow the game is. I'd rather play melee with pokeballs on high, on temple, with a bunch of casual players than endure the campfest that is vBrawl.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Hello Veril. Been A while.

Veril is correct. The problem with B+ is that not everyone will hack their wiis.

Really? I know a bunch of people who weren't aware of most of it's flaws until I pointed them out.

 

[.Marik]

This is going to be a long post. Here goes.

Brawl is in my opinion, even more unbalanced in terms of viability. In Melee, skilled players could at least implement AT's into their core gameplay to help establish techniques and such.

Brawl is inheritently cheap, broken, call it what you want. Low Tiers never had a chance, especially with tournament- infested, dominant hard-counters such as MetaKnight, King Dedede, Snake, Marth.

In Melee, some characters sucked. It's impossible to perfectly program a completely balanced game. But, the mechanics weren't as flawed, allowing more options and strategies to be formed.

Have you ever been camped and been unable to do anything about it? ChainGrabbed excessively? Had 100-0 matchups? Not in Melee, at least. Brawl promotes camping and defensive playstyles, Melee preferred offensive ones because of hitstun and combos.

But, many of you aren't understading something. Sakurai had a job to do, and that was selling copies of Brawl and making money, not to appeal to your individual needs. He has bills to pay, a family to look after, stuff like that. Do you think he intentionally tried to displease an entire gaming community? No, there were some flaws he never had the time to correct or improve, some programmed mechanics never worked out or smoothed.

I love both games. I play Brawl competitively, and I stopped playing Melee so I could practice Brawl and climb the rankings in my scene, which has been happening. I miss Melee, and I'm now playing it again, just need a bit more experience and time to hone my skills.

I'd like to see you program a game with 36 characters and various elements affecting the gameplay, some things which weren't discovered or realized during testing.

Brawl is different, stop comparing it to Melee. It was targeted at casual gamers, as was the entire Wii franchise because of financial gain.

Again, I like both. I'd rather excel at both than whine and complain and start drama on SmashBoards.

Each to their own. Why can't people just accept that mentality?

 

[Veril]

Hello Veril. Been A while.

Veril is correct. The problem with B+ is that not everyone will hack their wiis.

It only takes one player in an area with a hacked wii to get people to switch over.

Even if people don't like B+ ;_; there's still BBrawl and an enormous amount of codes that are just cool for casual play. Really, everyone who plays brawl, casually or competitively, has something to gain by hacking their wii.


Brawl is a smash game. It will be unfavorably compared to melee forever. Brawl could have been so much better, and it would have sold just as well. You think adding tripping had any positive effect on Nintendo's bottom line? No. Brawl sold as well as it did because it was part of an amazingly successful franchise that at its core is really appealing (Jigglypuff fighting Robots in Space!). There was no excuse for what Sakurai and co did to this game.

 

[Alphatron]

You don't need to hack your wii to play it anymore though. Smashstack.

 

[NatP]

Have you ever been camped and been unable to do anything about it? ChainGrabbed excessively? Had 100-0 matchups? Not in Melee, at least. Brawl promotes camping and defensive playstyles, Melee preferred offensive ones because of hitstun and combos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k I agree with your entire post but I just want to show that melee can be just as "defensive" as brawl.

 

[Veril]

The defensive options in Brawl are insanely good compared to offensive options.... blahblah melee tech argument that I don't need to reiterate.

Extremely defensive, campy play is arguably the most viable strategy in Brawl. Watch grand finals matches in both games and you can really see how different the ratio of defense:offense is between them. This is the core feature of Brawl's s****yness.

 

[.Marik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k I agree with your entire post but I just want to show that melee can be just as "defensive" as brawl.

That was an interesting match. I'm not denying that Melee incorporates defensive playstyles.

There are differences, however. Camping and planking in Melee can be punished more effectively with smart decisions, and it generally takes more skill in regards to spacing and playing "safe."

 

[ETWIST51294]

Melee can be played offensively and defensively. Just more people prefer offensively over defensively because it's more fun. Also, some characters require you to play offensively or defensively. Falcon and Falco are examples of offense and Samus and Peach are examples of defense. Melee is literally in between of 64 and brawl in terms of gameplay.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Dude, when someone tries to make a game uncompetitive because he wants to cater to a wider audience ($$$$) then he'll obviously get **** from the competitive fanbase .

 

[.Marik]

They exist in both games, but certain engines reward and promote certain playstyles.

Melee is at least more diverse in that particular aspect.

@ Stabbedbyanipple: I'm not denying that, but I don't think he intentionally tried to sabotage the competitive aspect of Brawl, but rather, tried adding some mods and features casual players would find more enjoyable.

However, the Wii is a casual console, and it explains the programming path Sakurai made with Brawl.

Yes, it sucks, but he had a professional job to do, and that's to program and sell games so Nintendo can make loads of money.

It's a competitive business, sometimes certain marketing steps must be made so they can remain on top and make a considerable profit.

 

[Big-Cat]

Dude, when someone tries to make a game uncompetitive because he wants to cater to a wider audience ($$$$) then he'll obviously get **** from the competitive fanbase .

This is why I hate the Lowest Common Denominator approach to marketing. You're basically screwing over the people that made your product popular in the first place; case in point, changing the Sci-Fi Channel to Syfy. It's a lot better to have a wider demographic appeal in certain aspects than to go with the LCD approach.

 

[.Marik]

This is why I hate the Lowest Common Denominator approach to marketing. You're basically screwing over the people that made your product popular in the first place; case in point, changing the Sci-Fi Channel to Syfy.

I completely agree.

 

[NatP]

Man I wish there was some way we could communicate with Sakurai. I want to say how he'd react. Would he be surprised? Would he say that was what he wanted? Because I don't understand how someone who made such great characters that are mostly balanced make other chars such as meta and ganon. It doesn't make any sense. :/

 

[bobson]

How do you go about balancing characters with items in mind when a lot of them are broken or are subject to serendipity?

That's the point. In a 1v1 with items off, Metaknight can permanently lock Ganondorf off and never allow him to land a hit, because there's nothing factoring into it besides character strengths, which Ganon lacks. In a free-for-all with four players, someone might hit Metaknight for Ganon and it doesn't matter. With items on, Ganon can charge ahead and a smart bomb can spawn while Metaknight's driving him off and Ganon gets a free advantage. Items, in addition to stages like Flat Zone 2 and the nature of free-for-alls, randomize the results somewhat, and as a result all characters have a much more equal chance of winning than they would when the game is stripped down to "competitive" aspects only.

This isn't a party game, it's a fighting game at its core.

You see, this is where you are wrong. Smash is and has always been a party game first and foremost. We play it like a fighting game. We are the minority. They have absolutely no reason to put extra effort into satisfying us and only us when everyone else is going to buy it so they can invite a bunch of friends over and have a blast with Pokeballs on high.

 

[theunabletable]

That's the point. In a 1v1 with items off, Metaknight can permanently lock Ganondorf off and never allow him to land a hit, because there's nothing factoring into it besides character strengths, which Ganon lacks. In a free-for-all with four players, someone might hit Metaknight for Ganon and it doesn't matter. With items on, Ganon can charge ahead and a smart bomb can spawn while Metaknight's driving him off and Ganon gets a free advantage. Items, in addition to stages like Flat Zone 2 and the nature of free-for-alls, randomize the results somewhat, and as a result all characters have a much more equal chance of winning than they would when the game is stripped down to "competitive" aspects only.

With thousands of dollars on the line, you don't want to lose by some lucky *** capsule hitting you and exploding.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's the point. In a 1v1 with items off, Metaknight can permanently lock Ganondorf off and never allow him to land a hit, because there's nothing factoring into it besides character strengths, which Ganon lacks. In a free-for-all with four players, someone might hit Metaknight for Ganon and it doesn't matter. With items on, Ganon can charge ahead and a smart bomb can spawn while Metaknight's driving him off and Ganon gets a free advantage. Items, in addition to stages like Flat Zone 2 and the nature of free-for-alls, randomize the results somewhat, and as a result all characters have a much more equal chance of winning than they would when the game is stripped down to "competitive" aspects only.

Please tell me you seriously aren't thinking this. There's no way. What if the roles were reversed? Would that be balanced to you?

You see, this is where you are wrong. Smash is and has always been a party game first and foremost. We play it like a fighting game. We are the minority. They have absolutely no reason to put extra effort into satisfying us and only us when everyone else is going to buy it so they can invite a bunch of friends over and have a blast with Pokeballs on high.

That's funny, Nintendo themselves have said Smash is a fighting game several times, yet you say it's a party game. And who said that they should satisfy only us? Personally, I want something like Melee where casual and competitive players had a blast playing the game. Note, this doesn't mean I want SSB4 to be Melee 2.0. I want it to surpass all its predecessors in every way possible.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

That's funny, Nintendo themselves have said Smash is a fighting game several times, yet you say it's a party game.

Nintendo, or Sakurai? In an interview? Who was this interview with?

And who said that they should satisfy only us? Personally, I want something like Melee where casual and competitive players had a blast playing the game.

That would be satisfying us. The thing is, he doesn't need to satisfy us at all to make money, which is essentially why he makes game. Which is why people dislike Brawl. They feel that made it solely for casual players.

Note, this doesn't mean I want SSB4 to be Melee 2.0. I want it to surpass all its predecessors in every way possible.

I'm pretty sure everyone who plays Smash wants this.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Skip post since Internet forced a double post w/ the same info.

Sorry mods.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

How exactly is melee purely competitive? You can't have Item FFAs on Temple in Melee or something?

This is the problem. Melee was a great casual game, but also a great competitive one. Sakurai wanted to make the game non competitive, despite the past game working wonders for both casual and competitive.

Smash by it's very nature, smash (including Melee and 64) is casual. Who doesn't like being bowser fighting against your friends ganondorf? The games inherently fulfill casual players needs, leaving room for him to work on competitive.

Lets be honest, there are literally 100 times the amount of casual smashers that have never heard or gone to smashboards as there are competitive players. They don't really notice that you can just grab the ledge for eight minutes, that the best way to win is to spam and run out the clock, That D3 can randomly infinite like 8 characters, That MK is strictly better than the cast, That a million other things. They spend their time having fun with the game. There is nothing wrong with this. The problem is that they could do this in Melee too, but in brawl, competitive is much more degenerate, and the games mechanics don't work very well when you dig even a little.

This is the problem. He ha proven that he is capable of making a game that both groups like, yet he chose to exclude and attack a single one in favor of the other. Yes, there are more casual players than competitive ones, but why would you make 90% of the community happy, and 10% mad, when you could make 100% happy?

He deserves every bit of hate he gets for his ignorance and stupidity.

I apologize but Brawl makes a much better casual game, so the casual side of Melee doesn't matter at all anymore. If you don't attend tournies but you still prefer Melee than Brawl then either you're poor and dumb, or you just aren't a casual gamer.

THIS is the problem. Melee is only played (for the most part) for it's competitive value. I'm sure some hobos still fiddle w/ their gamecubes even though the Wii is only $149 at Gamestop, but before Brawl came out, most people who played Melee casually either moved on from the outdated game (DO NOT BE SCRUBBY AND BE AFFENDED BY THAT. IT IS A GOOD GAME NO MATTER HOW OLD IT IS), or simply stop playing games in general.

And is the best character in the game but his metagame is not that much better than the other top tiers. He has been beaten constantly by top players and the community as a WHOLE doesn't even know the matchup. D3's infinite only makes 2 of the 8 characters unviable. Planking is beaten all the time.

Deep down we all enjoyed Brawl when we first played it. That's all that mattered 'cause our $50 was spent, with only a SMALL fraction of the consumers returning the game. I'm sick of arguments like this. Sakurai is a decent developer and the stupidity and ignorance is turned around. I honestly don't see anything wrong w/ Melee that would drift you away from it if you really like fighting games. W/ that being said there's no excuse to hate on something that doesn't need to be dealt w/.

Spoiler

Scrubs.

This won't get a lock for a long time for some reason, so ima get some sleep and come back tomorrow.

 

[Big-Cat]

Nintendo, or Sakurai? In an interview? Who was this interview with?

Brawl: http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/KnFMt3BjmYvIGiGjIfIXqkuretT-KLyA
The Nintendo channel also calls it a fighting game. Strangely enough, the Dojo is the only place I've seen that calls it something different: Action. Most websites also consider it to be a fighting game.

That would be satisfying us. The thing is, he doesn't need to satisfy us at all to make money, which is essentially why he makes game. Which is why people dislike Brawl. They feel that made it solely for casual players.

With this in mind, it's amazing what people will do for money. This goes back to that Lowest Common Denominator remark I made earlier.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Brawl: http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/KnFMt3BjmYvIGiGjIfIXqkuretT-KLyA
The Nintendo channel also calls it a fighting game. Strangely enough, the Dojo is the only place I've seen that calls it something different: Action. Most websites also consider it to be a fighting game.

I'm not talking about classifications like that. It's considered a fighting game on there because the characters fight. I was referring to what Sakurai classified it as personally, not what a bunch of random websites say.

EDIT: Also, that website doesn't even have a "party" category for games.

So the closest thing to that would be it being called an "action" game on the Dojo, I guess.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not talking about classifications like that. It's considered a fighting game on there because the characters fight. I was referring to what Sakurai classified it as personally, not what a bunch of random websites say.

EDIT: Also, that website doesn't even have a "party" category for games.

So the closest thing to that would be it being called an "action" game on the Dojo, I guess.

I was getting ready to edit my post with this:

http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol7_page1.jsp

Sakurai explicitly refers to Smash as a fighting game several times.

Maybe this will satisfy you. At most, Smash is an unorthodox fighter.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Alright.

Still, the fact that there are items and goofy stages just makes it like less and less of a true fighting game. But to delve into that argument will just enrage more people for no reason, so forget I said it.

Sakurai's silly.

 

[bobson]

Please tell me you seriously aren't thinking this. There's no way. What if the roles were reversed? Would that be balanced to you?

I didn't say it's magically balanced, Ganon is still an abysmal character with or without items. But the fact that you can win because the wind blew in your direction regardless of character means you have a much better chance of winning in all-Brawl with a garbage tier character than in competitive Brawl. It doesn't matter that Ganon sucks with four players running around and items spawning every few seconds while the stage is tossing everybody around with chairs and sausages.

That's funny, Nintendo themselves have said Smash is a fighting game several times, yet you say it's a party game.

It's a party game with fighting mechanics. "Fighting game" most easily fits the classification in layman's terms.
Show me one other "fighting game" where the default mode is four player timed free-for-alls on crazy stages with randomly-spawning items that change the game.

And who said that they should satisfy only us? Personally, I want something like Melee where casual and competitive players had a blast playing the game. Note, this doesn't mean I want SSB4 to be Melee 2.0. I want it to surpass all its predecessors in every way possible.

That's what everyone wants, but it takes a lot of work to make it that way and the very small consumer base that makes up the competitive community is not worth taking the large amount of extra effort it takes to swing that. Melee had a lot of competitive value by happy chance.

With thousands of dollars on the line, you don't want to lose by some lucky *** capsule hitting you and exploding.

That's why it wasn't made for you to play it with thousands of dollars on the line.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

It only takes one player in an area with a hacked wii to get people to switch over.

Even if people don't like B+ ;_; there's still BBrawl and an enormous amount of codes that are just cool for casual play. Really, everyone who plays brawl, casually or competitively, has something to gain by hacking their wii.


Brawl is a smash game. It will be unfavorably compared to melee forever. Brawl could have been so much better, and it would have sold just as well. You think adding tripping had any positive effect on Nintendo's bottom line? No. Brawl sold as well as it did because it was part of an amazingly successful franchise that at its core is really appealing (Jigglypuff fighting Robots in Space!). There was no excuse for what Sakurai and co did to this game.

I agree that you only really need one person to play it, but you need multiple to make a tourney out of it, as people can't really practice without it.

IDk why people won't hack their wii's anyways. I can't stand not having BootMii. Stupid wiimotes.

And I thought I basically said the same things you did. My point is that it serves nothing to alienate a part of your base when it was totally unwarranted.

Dude, when someone tries to make a game uncompetitive because he wants to cater to a wider audience ($$$$) then he'll obviously get **** from the competitive fanbase .

See my first post. He could have appealed to both, but didn't.

I apologize but Brawl makes a much better casual game, so the casual side of Melee doesn't matter at all anymore. If you don't attend tournies but you still prefer Melee than Brawl then either you're poor and dumb, or you just aren't a casual gamer.

Obviously brawl makes a better casual game. But you are misunderstanding me. When it was initially created, brawl did not exist, and yet it was both a good casual and competitive game

It therefore doesn't matter now. He proved that he was capable of making a game that appealed to both, yet only chose to appeal to a single one. It is inexcusable.

THIS is the problem. Melee is only played (for the most part) for it's competitive value. I'm sure some hobos still fiddle w/ their gamecubes even though the Wii is only $149 at Gamestop, but before Brawl came out, most people who played Melee casually either moved on from the outdated game (DO NOT BE SCRUBBY AND BE AFFENDED BY THAT. IT IS A GOOD GAME NO MATTER HOW OLD IT IS), or simply stop playing games in general.

See above. Current doesn't matter, he was capable of appeasing both bases, yet did not for no reason.

And is the best character in the game but his metagame is not that much better than the other top tiers. He has been beaten constantly by top players and the community as a WHOLE doesn't even know the matchup. D3's infinite only makes 2 of the 8 characters unviable. Planking is beaten all the time.

This is irrelevant. I'm not going to get into a majorly off topic debate, but if half of a community hates something so much, it's pretty obvious that regardless of it being banworthy or not, it is bad game design.

Deep down we all enjoyed Brawl when we first played it. That's all that mattered 'cause our $50 was spent, with only a SMALL fraction of the consumers returning the game. I'm sick of arguments like this. Sakurai is a decent developer and the stupidity and ignorance is turned around. I honestly don't see anything wrong w/ Melee that would drift you away from it if you really like fighting games. W/ that being said there's no excuse to hate on something that doesn't need to be dealt w/.

Spoiler

Scrubs.

Maybe we all did enjoy brawl at first, but more and more of the community is disliking the game, even the ones that continue to play it. This is almost entirely untrue with the other smash games.

I repeat, Brawl is considered a highly flawed game even buy many of the people who actually dedicate their time to playing it. Therefore this debate is in fact valid, because, as I keep saying, Sakurai was capable of pleasing his entire base, but chose not to simply because he doesn't like a part of it's mentality. Simple bull****.

 

[The Real Gamer]

This thread is funny. You guys think that Sakurai REALLY cares about competitive smash and yet he's probably swimming in cash from SSBB sales.

We make up the minority guys.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

See my first post. He could have appealed to both, but didn't.

He could have made it the best game ever created and balanced it almost perfectly.

What's your point?

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Alright.

Still, the fact that there are items and goofy stages just makes it like less and less of a true fighting game. But to delve into that argument will just enrage more people for no reason, so forget I said it.

I was just about to jump all over that, until I saw the latter part.

It's a party game with fighting mechanics. "Fighting game" most easily fits the classification in layman's terms.
Show me one other "fighting game" where the default mode is four player timed free-for-alls on crazy stages with randomly-spawning items that change the game.

Luckily for me, the same stupidity is coming out of your mouth. Let me clarify.

Mechanics do not determine or classify the genre of a game. It never did. We would be calling a game like Mega Man a shooter instead of a platformer if that was the case, which is wrong. Objectives are what defines a genre--due to Smash's inherent objectives, it's a fighting game. Albeit not a traditional fighter due to said mechanics, a fighting game nonetheless. But this should be obvious. Even Capcom realizes this.

To call Smash anything but a fighting game is wrong.

That's what everyone wants, but it takes a lot of work to make it that way and the very small consumer base that makes up the competitive community is not worth taking the large amount of extra effort it takes to swing that. Melee had a lot of competitive value by happy chance.

You're exaggerating the amount of effort needed to reach that goal. Melee did it, by happenchance, but it did it, with relatively little effort in comparison to Brawl. The developers could've took the precedent Melee set and expand from there, like they did with SSB, adjusting what needed to be adjusted and so forth. But they didn't.

Kinda reminds me of that one Sonic article where developers believe they can't appeal to all gamers--totally oblivious that they did before--so they're sticking with the younger audience. Funny how Mario is able to do it, why can't Sonic, or in relation to this topic, why couldn't Brawl?

 

[NatP]

The sad part, is that if sakurai were to make another SSB game, he'd do the exact same thing with the exact same problems. And I mean, who could blame him. Because even though we all know we're right and that brawl has many flaws, it still sold AMAZINGLY well. So in Sakurai's mind, he made a really good game. Which is sad to me. :/

 

[Tarmogoyf]

He could have made it the best game ever created and balanced it almost perfectly.

What's your point?

Did you actually read my first post? I explained that he had already shown that he is capable of appealing to both groups, yet did not. Therefore, he deserves the hate he gets for brawl because he simply chose to make the game with no regard for part of it's base. I'm not saying "blah blah hypothetical perfect game" I'm saying that he could have appeased both, like with melee, yet did not. Why?

It's negligent and insulting.

Oh, and also, from a a logical standpoint, yes everyone would have bought brawl regardless, because of all the hype and success of the previous two games, so no money worries if he screws up? Yes, but a lot of people will not jump on SSB4, unlike brawl, because he hurt part of his base. So it was stupid for him in the long term.

 

[superyoshi888]

This is pointless to even discuss even more. No matter who is right, people will still bash the man that doesn't deserve it.

If the Wii was more like the 360 or PS3, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Simple as that. Nintendo's "casual attitude(I still think that term is a load of bull, but it works here)" has polluted just about every 1st and 2nd party game that will be released outside of Super Mario and LoZ games.