Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
From what I've seen, the first and second party games (minus Pokemon to a certain extent) have gotten away from the whole casual thing for the most part. I mean, we haven't seen Metroid casualized or other series. Also, we got Punch-Out! and Sin and Punishment back which only appeal to the core gamers. It's the Wii series and Touch Generations stuff that appeal to the casual players.
That's what I'm thinking. The only way they could casualize the series is to make it kid friendly. Nintendo's worked for this series to be taken seriously and they aren't going to put it in vain.
This is the sad, sad truth. The competitive communities are like an expendable fraction of the market: they can make due with losing our loyalties if they gain new ones, or retain the majority of them. What the majority wants is to have fun by going to crazy stages and using crazy items to see if Snake is better than Mario, and what we want is a different kind of fun.
That isn't what I meant at all.
I actually don't. You could consider me a casual Metroid player. That would be a huge turn off if it became Metroid Gaiden. Sure, I don't want an easy game by any means. But one that is frustratingly difficult? No.
That's where different difficulties come into play. Easy, normal, hard, IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
He did actually hint it to be better than Melee, and we (as the competitive community) view "better" as "deeper". Maybe Sakurai just visualized a game where people laughed and joked around all day long in 4-player battle royales with all items on while winning the minigames in WarioWare, which WOULD apply to the majority of people who were expecting the next installment in the Smash Bros series. We, the competitive community, visualized a game where we would be practicing for days on end on how to perfect our characters, seeing matches where we would be on the edge of our seats everytime someone pulled off an inhuman feat (like some Melee stuff), and have the Melee pros stay as Brawl pros by passing the skill from the previous game to the next one (like SF's sequel, SF4).
You're assuming that melee wasn't just full of exploitable bugs. Only a couple of things from Melee that players used were meant to make it competitive. I believe Sakurais logic was more making Brawl NOT deep, but something anyone would be able to pick up and start playing(Given they'd still suck since there's still a learning curve). Adding tripping was going too far.
Melee wasn't about exploiting bugs. Wavedash is the exploitation of the game's physics when you think about it (airdodging sends you in the trajectory you desire. Depending on your character's traction, landing in a diagonal positions should have had the same effect it has: send you sliding until you stop), and L-Cancelling just can't be a bug (you diminish your landing frames with the push of a button, and only words on aerial A-moves... It's not super specific, it seems like it was intentional, and I'd bet money to say it WAS intentional). Those two things were the basis of all the advanced movement in Melee, and also sparked the competitive Melee environment as we know it. Those things were needed in order to create Melee's "deep" gameplay, and they were removed in Brawl, leaving us with literally nothing when we started to take Brawl seriously. Sakurai also changed the characters from what they were, instead of leaving them how they were, I mean... What's the point in nerfing all of Brawl's bottom tier'd characters? I seriously think that Brawl could've been all that we wanted, if only Sakurai payed mind to the gamers' needs...
I'm going to laugh so hard right now because thanks to hanging out with friends for all these years that have Dreamcasts, I know of ONE game series that is exactly that!
Hell, I want to meet the man just because he created Kirby.
Wow, you never post anything logical. Why do you play a game you don't like? True hypocricy. The online is nasty but I still have fun playing on it. Time and time again you should've been told 'bout Ninty's marketing strategy. $$$.
^Sir, have a cookie.
I play the game I don;t like because I can win money locally on a constant basis, and I like the community?
Because we're the minority. Why should he care about us?
BECAUSE HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT US!
Nintendo's strategy has involved expanding the audience by introducing nongamers and new gamers to pick up and play games. Note, most of these games in mind for these people have not been the core franchises that existed prior to Touch Generations. These games are mostly to break in first time gamers before they go into the hardcore stuff that defines gaming.
http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol2_page1.jsp
He could have cared about us both. I understand that he doesn't, thus why I consider him an *******. He didn't even have to do anything! He could have just moved the melee mechanics over to brawl, yet he totally re-designed it.Because we're the minority. Why should he care about us?
Sakurai wants dat cash money.
BECAUSE HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT US!
Why spend more money and time making the game for a group of people he DOESN'T CARE ABOUT?
Honestly, would you do that in his position?
I understand where you are coming from, but but there was no reason to do what he did. He could have kept the basics from Melee and have had a much better competitive game, but he didn't. He went out of his way to hurt the competitive crowd, and didn't truly benefit the casual crowd doing so.Wii sells better 'cause Ninty gets more income from supporting the casual audience. Keep that in mind at least.
For sure the casual community is bigger than us, so plenty of people would still buy SSB4. Losing 'bout 1000 consumers is not that big of a deal when you still have over 1000000 (garunteed the number of people who bought Brawl is larger than this).
100% was not mandatory for Sakurai to make the estimated income. This is Ninty's marketing technique: least amount effort as possible for massive income. Sakurai was associated w/ this technique even though he spent 3 years on this game. Right when Brawl was announced and up for reservals the game was already selling like hotcakes. Even though Melee is better (competitive wise) I am thankful that Sakurai didn't hype us up then give us a game that's absolutely unacceptable in every way. Ofcourse, though, he had to put in value cause the income would be MUCH less.
You have every right to hate Sakurai, but he also has the right to believe you don't exist as long as casual crowd provides the most income. Sorry 'bout takin` long to reply, I was @ a tourney match.
No he didn't. Not at all.
.
Unless everyone who attended E3 was lying, and his interview stating that he thinks that brawl shouldn't be a competitive game are lying, then no, I didn't blow it out of proportion. He actually went back and removed things the competitive community liked.
it's called first impressions. there are videos of the e4all demo still out there on youtube that show people attacking/airdoding immediately after being hit. this shows that the game they played already lacked hitstun. the demo was floaty, lacked hitstun, and had auto-snap recoveries. the game mechanics were set in stone for the most part.
After rereading that article, I have to say that I would not want Smash near him again. Had the fluke that was Melee never happened, things would be very different. Despite his intentions, once the game reaches the players, it doesn't mean anything as to what he intended. Unfortunately, Sakurai doesn't seem to realize this and he should be capitalizing on this in the best way possible; not trying to turn Smash into a fighting game where random tripping is seriously considered a form of balancing instead of the winner play because of pure skill.
Looking at it again, they are more narrow minded than anything else.
Your best bet would be a Power Stone revival. I'm not saying Capcom would stray from traditional 2D(since they defined it), but they already have a Smash-esque series. Of course, they could bring its mechanics and gameplay back in the next vs. Capcom game.
So, you put two options down.
This is what I said, and thus my problem. I can cater to both, but doesn't. I can only hope that others will listen to me and not buy SSB4 unless it isn't the trash that brawl is.
Here's the funny thing. You keep Smash as it is and it will be less popular because it's the same **** thing every time. There's a reason why people don't like it when a sequel is the same as its predecessor.
Care to tell me what this "decline" was. Ten bucks that there's more to this than added features that scared newbies away like people having less interest in fighting games. Another thing to note is that SFIII took away all the iconic characters from SFII except for Ryu, Ken, Akuma, and Chun-Li.
Yet this was around the time when fighting games were in a rut and were perceived as button mashers.
Yet BlazBlue is supposed to be an easier version of Guilty Gear. I'm willing to bet that people simply didn't have an interest in the game, and it was not because it was a competitive game. It's like expecting a US audience to fall in love with the anime style 2D graphics since we only seem to like 2D if it's retro or realistic 3D graphics.
Can't really comment on this one.
Again, I think it's a lack of interest. Look at it this way. Fighting games were rather popular back in the early 90's. Now, FPS games seem to be the flavor of the decade. It's all a matter of what's the trend in gaming. At one point, gamers will flock to another genre and I think Music might be the next one.
Projection. You can't call me closed minded when Toise and I have explained to you in depth why you are wrong and when the evidence stares you in the face, and you put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALA i'M NOT LISTENING."
Melee was very similar to Brawl, and less competitive by the communities standards. It sold more then Melee. You only assume it will be different because how I say Smash should be is similar to how it is now. There are many ways to make a game different then just gameplay. Look at mario Kart Wii vs Mario Kart DS.
Just like you said, Melee was a fluke. To make Smash competitive would mean adding in features to make the game harder, but would add more depth. Like Wavedashing, this only increases the skill gap, and makes it easier for lower tier players to give up. With onlne, it because easier for players to give up as they will feel inferior, loss their interest, and find a product that will fill their needs and be easy to jump into. Videogames are very steep in competition, from other games, other entertainment mediums and even disinterest. So, you always have to keep the low tier guys from getting out.
Smash came out when fighting games were gone. New Super Mario Bros Wii is successful despite the fall of 2D platformers. So no, people do not buy games for genre alone. It shows you have no idea why people buy games.
What? People would not buy a game because it was too easy. There only way it would be too easy is if the game became easy to the point of boring, and none of the vs games are. Heck, you also go at it again assuming people buy based on genre. Fun fact: Original gaming HAD NO GENRES. You point is nulled because people didn't buy games because of a genre as most genres were being created. And every genre failed (out of the ones that did) due to some reason. 2D Space Shooters became bullet hells, forcing low tier players out (see a pattern yet). Platformers died as people just stopped making them, but NSMBW was able to come out of a time when 2D platformers were in a rut. See this atricle to see what I mean.
Blazblue is a flop all around. There is no doubt about it. Guilty Gear is also a flop. "But you said people buy games that are easy." Easier doesn't mean easy. It means less difficult then it's predecessor. The games are still to hard to be assessable to low tier players.
Again, New Super Mario Bros Wii came out of a time when platformers were all but dead. How come a fighting games hasn't does this. Smash has come the closest to this out of any fighting game, and still outsells all the other games.
Did you consider the edge that smash has over most fighting games? Smash came out after all of the characters had been well established and popular. Thereby, introducing enemies and other random characters is easy to do because Smash had already built the reputation of Nintendo's ultimate fighter. The Soul Calibur isn't that much different being a mash up of familiar characters. Being that most people buy the game for the characters and nostalgic elements, it is of no surprise to me that the best selling fighting game belongs to a company with the best reputation. Meanwhile, games like Tekken and Street fighter had to build their reputation from scratch (yet they are still popular.). Imagine what Smash would be like if Sakurai had established his product without Nintendo's All Stars? As was his original intent.
Sakurai can't cater both the casual and competitive scene? Ever heard of Melee?
He didnt try to cater competitive needs there, it was just a mistake that happened to work out perfectly for competitors.Sakurai can't cater both the casual and competitive scene? Ever heard of Melee?
Whether he intended or not is irrelevant. Like I said earlier, he should've capitalized on this while still appealing to the casuals at the same time like he ended up with Melee. Considering that he has Melee as a base for this balance, it's not THAT difficult. The hardest part, aside from balancing the roster and not involving serendipity from the game itself, would be to include mechanics (and possibly simplifying others) that are easy to learn, but you're on your own to tap the potential of the mechanics.
That's irrelevant. It still shows his ability to cater for both casuals and competitors...
