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S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

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Magus420

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sorry, your explanation was really long so I had to reread it several times and I still couldnt quite understand. Probably since I never played the game you compared it too so I still had no idea what it did in that game.

Your last post was very short, concise and clear so it makes sense now.
I apologize if that seemed a bit harsh as I know you included that part at the end. It's more because people seem to fixate completely on the cost aspect of it having grown used to the "LOL less lag for free everytime" version that offers no real depth to speak of in its actual usage beyond what becomes possible with the reduction in lag itself, and overlook the fact that it's including normal l-cancel speed already (and all the new options created with it), but with an extra option of an even more potent version of the s-cancel but with a tradeoff to balance it and the additional skill needed to use it most effectively.
 

zxeon

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I don't like the idea of cutting everyone's lag in half automatically because how is that different from "brawl on steroids"? We could put them both in L-cancel and Perf-Cancel.
 

Stratocaster

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Is there any real proof of this? Because it really doesn't look that way to me, although I don't actually have the game to be able to test it myself.

In the clip on the left the 2nd attack is powershielded, but the only thing that appears to happen to it strength-wise is that it doesn't take any damage from that hit. It doesn't look like it restored any of its power, and definitely doesn't look like it replenished fully when you compare it to the undamaged shield in the clip to the right.
Sorry, I only played brawl near the beginning of its life span before I got tired of it a when no AT's came to speed the game up or make it exciting, I just played melee (because I find it more fun), so that misconception came from an earlier notion that has since been disproved.

I think its funny that you are proposing a huge change to brawl, that has never been in any smash game before, and yet you don't even own the thing... ironic, but hey its still a good idea. It may not be too hard to make, we NEED to find a willing hacker or all of our discussion is useless. I want to try PS/ Magus/M-canceling on the field now. It may leave characters like... pikachu, sonic, or maybe toon link, or any other characters with relatively already low landing lag with barely any benefit in comparison to snake, DDD, and bowser. Of course most characters have at least 1 aerial with higher landing lag (sonic and TL's dairs), and besides halfing already fast lag may make them juuust fast enough to do that combo they couldn't do before...

it just needs to be field tested right now...
 

kupo15

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I apologize if that seemed a bit harsh as I know you included that part at the end. It's more because people seem to fixate completely on the cost aspect of it having grown used to the "LOL less lag for free everytime" version that offers no real depth to speak of in its actual usage beyond what becomes possible with the reduction in lag itself, and overlook the fact that it's including normal l-cancel speed already (and all the new options created with it), but with an extra option of an even more potent version of the s-cancel but with a tradeoff to balance it and the additional skill needed to use it most effectively.
Ah np. That seems like a cool idea...But I dont like lag being automatically cut without the possibility of the user messing up so if you wanna try it, I think you need an additional input for it. (you may have mentioned that before)

I can see how this might work with hitstun:
If you hit them with an attack that would allow them to normally escape your combo because of the reduced lag, you can sacrifice your shield to follow up with the needed attack due to no landing lag.
 

Magus420

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The skill of execution aspect is already included in performing the ps-cancel, and also adds skill in being able to use it effectively. Going through the trouble of adding in a second option for input that isn't even an option anyway, and doesn't add any meaningful depth to the game at all is pretty unnecessary imo.
 

K1T3

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It gives people something to do. I get bored otherwise.
I don't know how many times I've lost a stock on melee because I was just shuffling around all over the place when they respawn.... but I can't just sit there and do nothing... it's so boring...
 

Ojanya

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If hitstun is added, I'd say go with L-canceling. But for some reason, it seems like S-canceling would be faster/more aggressive at the moment when we are still without it. I wouldn't really want to play the game without hitstun, anyway though... It's still basically impossible to combo.
 

Ojanya

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Why are people so attached to their unnecessary button press? @_@
Okay, here's my opinion on this:


Adding that "Unnecessary" button press adds more room for error. Why is this good? Because it requires the better player to get it EVERY time. Not only does it make the game more techincal, but it takes more time to master, adding depth to the game. So I don't really think it's so "unnecessary."
 

zxeon

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Okay, here's my opinion on this:


Adding that "Unnecessary" button press adds more room for error. Why is this good? Because it requires the better player to get it EVERY time. Not only does it make the game more techincal, but it takes more time to master, adding depth to the game. So I don't really think it's so "unnecessary."
That's why.
 

Wind Owl

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I guess I get why you would want it for L-canceling but my problems are 1) not every character has to L-cancel in Brawl+. It becomes less about "the better player" and more about "the laggy character." 2) Adding an additional button press just to "have something to do" seems absolutely absurd to me. What would the press even be?
 

kupo15

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Why are people so attached to their unnecessary button press? @_@
comboing shouldnt be easy and if you miss an l cancel you lose the combo. Comboing shouldnt be something you take for granted and by making everything auto cancel, thats what your doing and you are taking some skill away from comboing.

I guess I get why you would want it for L-canceling but my problems are 1) not every character has to L-cancel in Brawl+. It becomes less about "the better player" and more about "the laggy character." 2) Adding an additional button press just to "have something to do" seems absolutely absurd to me. What would the press even be?
I understand, but that isnt our problem. Its sakurias fault. Not all characters have complete auto canceled aerials. All I can think of is samus which means there are aerials that characters have to l cancel. Not only that but I believe l canceling cuts the auto canceled in half also.

If you are worried about one player doing more work than the next, then
1. Its no different than a low tier having to work harder than an upper tier. They picked it and they have to accept it
2. This could be why we should bring back z canceling. That way everyone has a reason to z cancel since everyone will benefit from zero lag no matter what.
 

Magus420

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Adding that "Unnecessary" button press adds more room for error. Why is this good? Because it requires the better player to get it EVERY time. Not only does it make the game more techincal, but it takes more time to master, adding depth to the game. So I don't really think it's so "unnecessary."
...and beyond the point where good players are able to get it 95-99% of the time anyway and up to the very best of players? Exactly, it offers next to nothing for depth and becomes no more than a superfluous button press for people that need to press lots of buttons and can't find other ways to get their fix in the game. Should we also make it so you need to tap the B button rapidly while holding A to charge smashes? That too provides another outlet for pressing extra buttons while also adding nothing at all meaningful to the game.

Also, in the rare instances someone does miss the cancel for the normal half lag who actually gets punished for it? It certainly wouldn't be MK and other fast characters that get little out of it anyway.

The fact that analog input on the L/R buttons doesn't even work like it did to do it in Melee and you need to press it down completely for it to register constantly makes it even worse of an idea imo.
 

infernovia

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Okay, here's my opinion on this:


Adding that "Unnecessary" button press adds more room for error. Why is this good? Because it requires the better player to get it EVERY time. Not only does it make the game more techincal, but it takes more time to master, adding depth to the game. So I don't really think it's so "unnecessary."
The "Better player" defined by button pressing? Pfft.
 

kupo15

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No, its by precise button pressing. There is room for error because your not 100% sure if they will dodge or get hit because the timing for both is different. Also, since this game really slows down sometimes, thats a third timing. And jumping to ledges plus the hit/no hit timings will add more timing problems that take skill.

Did you read my post 3 above you?
 

Makkun

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After reading Magus's post, I remembered about having to press L/R all the way down in order for the cancel to work... this REALLY turns me off to having to press a button now. ._.
 

Ojanya

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...and beyond the point where good players are able to get it 95-99% of the time anyway and up to the very best of players? Exactly, it offers next to nothing for depth and becomes no more than a superfluous button press for people that need to press lots of buttons and can't find other ways to get their fix in the game. Should we also make it so you need to tap the B button rapidly while holding A to charge smashes? That too provides another outlet for pressing extra buttons while also adding nothing at all meaningful to the game.

Also, in the rare instances someone does miss the cancel for the normal half lag who actually gets punished for it? It certainly wouldn't be MK and other fast characters that get little out of it anyway.

The fact that analog input on the L/R buttons doesn't even work like it did to do it in Melee and you need to press it down completely for it to register constantly makes it even worse of an idea imo.

I still don't see anything but good it left in. It takes more skill to play a character consistantly that way. If MK doesn't gain much from it, then that's one character. But it would certainly make a difference in the rest of the cast. If they picked a character that's easily punished, that's their fault. That's how tiers are developed.


Sorry, but inputting the l-cancels wasn't at all a meaningful test of skill in comboing.

"Wow, Darkrain's combos are sick. His l-cancels are too good!"
No, but it's more impressive WITH l-cancels. It would be a lot easier to shuffle a bunch of u-airs without l-canceling in a combo like that. I think Yuna had a good post on this somewhere...


Anyway, going to bed for now.
 

kupo15

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I know how to l cancel and Im still missing the l cancel in brawl. i think the timing for it in brawl is good because its more challenging.

Is anyone going to respond to my posts?
 

K1T3

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...and beyond the point where good players are able to get it 95-99% of the time anyway and up to the very best of players? Exactly, it offers next to nothing for depth and becomes no more than a superfluous button press for people that need to press lots of buttons and can't find other ways to get their fix in the game. Should we also make it so you need to tap the B button rapidly while holding A to charge smashes? That too provides another outlet for pressing extra buttons while also adding nothing at all meaningful to the game.

Also, in the rare instances someone does miss the cancel for the normal half lag who actually gets punished for it? It certainly wouldn't be MK and other fast characters that get little out of it anyway.

The fact that analog input on the L/R buttons doesn't even work like it did to do it in Melee and you need to press it down completely for it to register constantly makes it even worse of an idea imo.
The key is they only get it 95-99% of the time. When they miss it does matter a great deal, that's when they get punished for it. Also you have to consider that to keep a combo going it normally takes a perfect L cancel for every single hit and missing even one of those ruins it and a lot of times allows the opponent to retaliate. I could be playing Caveman for instance (I havn't traveled much) and he will still mess up his L cancels fairly regularly and not be able to combo me across the stage to my death like he would have been able to had he L canceled perfectly every time. Whereas when I play someone with better tech skill that doesn't miss their L cancel almost ever, they can get ridiculous combos on me across the stage or to my death and link things that I didn't even know could be linked. People should be rewarded for the insane amount of time and effort they put in in acheiving that level of tech skill. Also, very very few people ever did get to that super amazing level where they almost never ever messed up and this was over the course of what 7-8 yrs? As you get good you learn to see and capitalize on that one instance where your opponent messes up, but you desire to take that away from the game. Really L canceling does add quite a layer of depth to the game, dumbing it down is just.... wrong.

I should also point out that the current (balance of lack thereof) of the game is created with each move having it's set amount of lag. Yes there are many laggy moves and some that don't seem to have lag at all (kirby, samus, most nairs, etc) but if you look at those moves that have lag they tend deal more damage and knockback than those without. Now I'm all for having L-canceling in the game but to give it away for free is just trying to mess things up. Some complain that well those characters with hardly any lag already wouldn't get much of a benifit from L-canceling so why should we have to make them push a button for it, but that's what balances it...

As for fast characters not getting punished for missing L cancels, did you not play melee? Shiek, Marth, Fox all had very little lag to start with, as little as MetaKnight. Yes they could **** without L canceling and yeah it made them a lot better. But any and all of them would get serverly punished if they should ever miss, if they didn't then they were probably playing against a scrub. I could understand you saying that if you were opposed to L canceling completely... but not really as it was L canceling that allowed the other characters to still be playable and competative against them. But you aren't opposed to Lcanceling you want to autogive it to all characters, and the characters that would benifit the most from that are the ones that are already too good and have just that tiny bit of lag holding thim back, like MetaKnight.

If anything you should be argueing to keep L-canceling and simply make the timing more difficult.

Edit: You denounced what I said before but it's true that L-canceling is just fun. Jumping around the stage doing a bunch of cool stuff because you put in the practice to actually be able to pull it off adds a layer of fun and interest in the game for me. I could pick kirby in brawl and jump around and spam attacks as quickly as possible but this would do nothing for me. I would be utterly bored as all I'm doing is pushing jump and a C stick in a direction. There is nothing even remotely complex in this.
If you understand anything about human motivation and interest people like doing things that offer a little bit of a challenge to them (if a task is either too easy, or too hard people won't want to do it). Tasks with a moderate amount of difficutly are what keep people engaged. When people have to do something that they find boring and easy they will go out of their way to try to make it more difficult to challenge themselves and keep interest.
 

kupo15

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The key is they only get it 95-99% of the time. stuff

If anything you should be argueing to keep L-canceling and simply make the timing more difficult.
QFT. I think the timing of l canceling right now is tougher since it is further from the ground. That combined with the slowing down of impacts and depending on where you hit them, if they will dodge so the expected slow down wont happen and etc makes it hard and worth learning.

I like what you said, "giving l canceling away for free is wrong"
esp since l canceling in this game is harder than the other two.

I think between the two of us, we have a good argument, I hope ppl respond to them soon to see what they will say. :)
 

Magus420

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Did you not play Brawl? The lag on a non l-canceled fast aerial in Melee is not comparable to the lag on fast aerials in Brawl.

I think the timing of l canceling right now is tougher since it is further from the ground.
If PW made it just like he said he did, I don't see why the timing would be any sooner than before. Sure that's not because you now need to press the button in all the way everytime for it to register? It sounds like it is.
 

K1T3

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QFT. I think the timing of l canceling right now is tougher since it is further from the ground. That combined with the slowing down of impacts and depending on where you hit them, if they will dodge so the expected slow down wont happen and etc makes it hard and worth learning.

I like what you said, "giving l canceling away for free is wrong"
esp since l canceling in this game is harder than the other two.

I think between the two of us, we have a good argument, I hope ppl troll them soon to see what they will say. :)
Woops, just read your posts, seems I repeated a lot of the stuff you already said, sorry about that.

Did you not play Brawl? The lag on a non l-canceled fast aerial in Melee is not comparable to the lag on fast aerials in Brawl.

If PW made it just like he said he did, I don't see why the timing would be different. Sure that's not because you now need to press the button in all the way everytime for it to register? It sounds like it.
Yep played it, and what top or high tier character in brawl could you be refering to? Most of them have more lag than the top and high tier character in melee.
I know it's not MK as his lag is certainly no less than Marth's or sheiks is pre Lcancel (though their dairs do lag more).

Any aerial MK does to close to an enemy they can always get off a shield grab before he can respond. His moves do lag, though it is small.

Sure there are characters like Kirby and Samus that have almost no lag but it's not like it matters, they don't own 99% of the rest of the cast.
 

kupo15

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The fact that analog input on the L/R buttons doesn't even work like it did to do it in Melee and you need to press it down completely for it to register constantly makes it even worse of an idea imo.
Thats why I like nunchuck lol.

If PW made it just like he said he did, I don't see why the timing would be any sooner than before. Sure that's not because you now need to press the button in all the way everytime for it to register? It sounds like it is.
idk since I use the nunchuck.

Edit: You denounced what I said before but it's true that L-canceling is just fun. Jumping around the stage doing a bunch of cool stuff because you put in the practice to actually be able to pull it off adds a layer of fun and interest in the game for me. I could pick kirby in brawl and jump around and spam attacks as quickly as possible but this would do nothing for me. I would be utterly bored as all I'm doing is pushing jump and a C stick in a direction. There is nothing even remotely complex in this.
Wow everyone is editing there posts and I miss them. lol. I agree. Having the game auto cancel moves like Ganons Bair without anywork is boring. Now SHFFLing Ganon bairs across the stage takes some skill and practice. One missed cancel and you are exposed or you mess up your combo.

No, that's just not true. MOST OF THE CAST AUTO-CANCELS THEIR AERIALS.
Only a select few have to L-cancel their aerials.
Not all moves are auto canceled which means most characters still require you to l cancel

Points that still need to be addressed.

No, its by precise button pressing. There is room for error because your not 100% sure if they will dodge or get hit because the timing for both is different. Also, since this game really slows down sometimes, thats a third timing. And jumping to ledges plus the hit/no hit timings will add more timing problems that take skill.
QFT. I think the timing of l canceling right now is tougher since it is further from the ground. That combined with the slowing down of impacts and depending on where you hit them, if they will dodge so the expected slow down wont happen and etc makes it hard and worth learning.

I like what you said, "giving l canceling away for free is wrong"
Why are people so attached to their unnecessary button press? @_@
comboing shouldnt be easy and if you miss an l cancel you lose the combo. Comboing shouldnt be something you take for granted and by making everything auto cancel, thats what your doing. You are taking some skill away from comboing.

I guess I get why you would want it for L-canceling but my problems are 1) not every character has to L-cancel in Brawl+. It becomes less about "the better player" and more about "the laggy character." 2) Adding an additional button press just to "have something to do" seems absolutely absurd to me. What would the press even be?
I understand, but that isnt our problem. Its sakurias fault. Not all characters have complete auto canceled aerials. All I can think of is samus which means there are aerials that characters have to l cancel. Not only that but I believe l canceling cuts the auto canceled in half also.

If you are worried about one player doing more work than the next, then
1. Its no different than a low tier having to work harder than an upper tier. They picked it and they have to accept it
2. This could be why we should bring back z canceling. That way everyone has a reason to z cancel since everyone will benefit from zero lag no matter what.
[/quote]
 

#HBC | Mac

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hmmm I'm neutral in the issue whether the L canceling part of M-canceling should have a button input or not. Tech skill is part of the game, and the idea that adding an unnecessary button input to do something makes sense, but say for example melee, would you want anyone to be able to double shine consistently or float cancel peaches aerials perfectly, barely leaving the ground. If you think that the added input, that makes L canceling harder to do, is unnecessary, do you also think that other techs should be dumbed down to be easier. as someone said before, i think it adds the feeling that you actually worked to get better at this game by being to shffl or wavedash perfectly.

Did the above paragraph even make sense...


on another note, if we did have two different inputs for the L and PS canceling part of M-Canceling. What would they be?
Maybe you have to hit L or R for L canceling and you have to hit both to PS cancel. I dunno, having to different inputs for both seems to complicate things.

But I could careless either way.
 

err

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[ edit : i suck at timing the l-cancels. the digital click takes some getting used to, coming direct from melee ]
 

Ojanya

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No, that's just not true. MOST OF THE CAST AUTO-CANCELS THEIR AERIALS.

Only a select few have to L-cancel their aerials.
Maybe on the way up. You can't fast fall them and cancel lag as soon as they hit the ground, though. For example, if I take D3 and use Fair while short hopping, it will auto cancel, but if I use it on the way down, he'll have landing lag.
 

Revven

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Maybe on the way up. You can't fast fall them and cancel lag as soon as they hit the ground, though. For example, if I take D3 and use Fair while short hopping, it will auto cancel, but if I use it on the way down, he'll have landing lag.
Plus, it's some times better to fastfall autocanceled attacks when you want to connect them into a combo or hit someone shorter than you. The only autcanceled moves I can think of that shouldn't be fastfalled are Ganondorf's Dair and Wolf's Fair. DDD definitely sometimes needs his Fair to be FF'd in order to connect, L-Canceling would help that and alleviate the lag problem by a decent amount.
 

infernovia

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No, its by precise button pressing. There is room for error because your not 100% sure if they will dodge or get hit because the timing for both is different. Also, since this game really slows down sometimes, thats a third timing. And jumping to ledges plus the hit/no hit timings will add more timing problems that take skill.

Did you read my post 3 above you?
Err? The point is that you are going to have to l - cancel all your aerials, no matter if you hit them or not, and thats simply a grinding chore to get your fingers mechanically memorizing l cancelling. Its not a "l cancel if you hit, don't if you don't" type thing. At the end its just an additional button to press while jumping.

I do get what you are saying, its a kind of "hard fun", enjoyment when something you worked hard for pays off. But after it becomes muscle memory, its just another additional thing to do. I am way happier with Magus's idea because not only can you make it tough to cancel (for hardcore people), you also have to have way more knowledge than the opponent (knowing which situation works for cancelling and which ones do not) and it lends itself to a variety in playstyle (by allowing moves to vary in ending lag).
Edit: And, actually, I think I like the damage yourself idea. like 7/8% damage each cancel.. this allows for aggressive players to cancel all their moves while not getting handicapped to the extreme while some might save it up for super kill combos.
 

zxeon

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It's just like Soul Caliber's Impacts. You might as well do them its better than just blocking the attack. Every game has 'em. It's all just a question of timing. If you are good enough you can pull it off if you are not you can't.
 

kupo15

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Err? The point is that you are going to have to l - cancel all your aerials, no matter if you hit them or not, and thats simply a grinding chore to get your fingers mechanically memorizing l cancelling. Its not a "l cancel if you hit, don't if you don't" type thing. At the end its just an additional button to press while jumping.
while that is correct, that is not the point. You misunderstood me. Im saying even once you have the timing down, there are a LOT of factors that Brawl has over the first two games that make l canceling harder than before. Besides the different timing which is further from the ground (harder to judge (I am a nunchuck user which means when I press the button, it happens so idk about GCC)) you have huge lag from the certain strong moves and depending on the situation, timing can be hard. I dont feel like repeating myself so please re read my posts a little more carefully.

It's just like Soul Caliber's Impacts. You might as well do them its better than just blocking the attack. Every game has 'em. It's all just a question of timing. If you are good enough you can pull it off if you are not you can't.
I agree. Good example.
 

Magus420

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It's just like Soul Caliber's Impacts. You might as well do them its better than just blocking the attack. Every game has 'em. It's all just a question of timing. If you are good enough you can pull it off if you are not you can't.
I don't play the game, but doesn't that require you to time the guard itself? In other words, in exchange for the greater reward of peforming it correctly, you are slightly more at risk than simply holding block early since if the guard is timed late you get hit. L-canceling on the other hand is just a greater reward offered at zero risk to the player for using it, and is superior to not attempting it in 100% of all cases regardless of whether it's even successful.

If "Every game has 'em", it should be easy to name at least a dozen other respectable fighting games and their intentional game mechanics that offer great reward for absolutely zero risk, right?

L/Z-canceling in Melee/64 don't count btw as it is the design being questioned =P
 

Dan_X

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Thanks mods for re-opening my thread!!

I didn't realize this thread was re-opened until now, I was bummed when it initially was closed because I had so much to say. Also, I didn't think there was reason for this thread to be closed because it dealt with two specific aspects of Brawl+ that I didn't see a thread for. I'm impressed wit where this thread has gone, everyone is really doing a great job contributing! So thank you everyone for your thought! I started reading from page 4, and realized that there are 15 or so pages so I skipped to just posting this. With that said, would someone care to update me as to any other conclusions that have been met? Where has this discussion gone in those 10+ pages?

So let me clarify what I started to pick up earlier in the thread... if this is not where we stand now, please correct me. ;)

We are proposing a new code be written, rather, the L-canceling code be modified so that if you L-cancel as usual it will cut the landing animation in half. However, if you L-cancel at the last second you cut all of the landing lag but sacrifice a % of your shielding.

Again, perhaps I read it wrong in the beginning, I heard "power shielding" thrown around quite a bit and was a slight bit confused.

Thanks guys!
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
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Yes, guard for the GC is just B. Guard impact is left/right+B at the moment of impact. This will not hurt you and it stops your opponents combo. But they can also stop your counter combo with a guard impact so you can have a guard impact wars.

Regardless, performing l canceling in brawl is harder than before due to timing being further from the ground and the big slow down after hits. Please view the second half of my post 188 for reasons why manual l cancel should be there. If you have points against manual l cancel, please respond to them since no one said specifically why those points are bad reasons why we should have manual l cancel.
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
I don't play the game, but doesn't that require you to time the guard itself? In other words, in exchange for the greater reward of peforming it correctly, you are slightly more at risk than simply holding block early since if the guard is timed late you get hit. L-canceling on the other hand is just a greater reward offered at zero risk to the player for using it, and is superior to not attempting it in 100% of all cases regardless of whether it's even successful.

If "Every game has 'em", it should be easy to name at least a dozen other respectable fighting games and their intentional game mechanics that offer great reward for absolutely zero risk, right?

L/Z-canceling in Melee/64 don't count btw as it is the design being questioned =P
The point here isn't to make lists.
In smash the risk is already built in you get right and if you don't you leave yourself open or you lose your combo. Kind of like Impacts.
 
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