S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

[Banjodorf]

L-Canceling is my hot love.

And Diddy + L-canceling/wavedashing + bananas = ****-on-a-stick.

And L-canceling in Brawl makes Falcon semi good, so......

 

[MookieRah2]

I was merely pointing out how you were somewhat wrong. You made it seem like there is nothing you can do until the shield goes away and that is not true.

Yeah, when I said that I was in the mentality of talking about heavy hitters, in which case their fastest option out of shield tends to be a jab or a ground move.

Powershielding shuts down the projectile game and some characters rely on this.

Power shielding doesn't give Ganon or Ike a good, reliable approach. Power shielding simply gives Ike and Ganon the ability to shield projectiles without damage to their shield and without as much lag. This doesn't make it easier for Ike and Ganon to catch someone that is being campy.

The reason you don't see many Ikes and Ganon in brawl is because of lack of hitstun and lag canceling.

In other words, you are saying the lack of Ikes and Ganon is due to their lag. If Ike and Ganon had a reliable approach that wasn't laggy then the lag on their other moves wouldn't be a big deal. As it stands, Ike and Ganon have to really fight their way in to actually land a move on their opponents much harder than many other characters on the roster.

In the same token, there is more to speed than just running fast...we just dont look at speed the same way here

Yeah, and that is EXACTLY why I talked about ground speed, air speed, and the overall speed of their attacks -_-. I talked about all aspects of what makes a character fast or slow, I didn't just pick ground speed.

Flame choke>Jab/Dtilt is a true combo and the Dtilt sets up nicely for follow ups and he can also tech chase. You don't seem well educated in Ganons moves and what he is capable of.

You don't seem to understand that if your opponent simply held away the combo would have ended after the Jab cause of DI. Training mode combos don't mean much in a real match. Also, you don't seem to remember that I said that Ganon can only chain hits at low percent.

With S canceling, Ike can string together multiple Uairs. I didnt mention Dair spikes, I was referring to Dair bounces off of the ground which combos into anything. And you forget..hes Ike! He doesn't need that many well timed moves to get you off the stage. Hitstun helps greatly with his slow smashes

He can't string together uairs, not even at 0%. That is unless you are using more hitstun than 10%. He can only hit with one because the actual lag on uair is immense. You could get "non-legit" uair strings, but that is far from true comboing. Dair bouncing you off the ground would also have limited followups, and could only be performed at low percents as the dair has way to much knockback. Also, it doesn't matter how quick he gets you off the stage, his edgeguarding isn't the most effective, and you also don't tend to realize how much impact DI has, cause if I DI almost all of Ike's moves up I will be knocked high into the air, far outside the reach of Ike, and could simply fall back towards the stage.

Uthrow, Utilt, explosives

I very much doubt his explosives combo much. You will have to show that in action to convince me on that. Up throw probably isn't a legit combo (as most throws don't really set for anything up) and if it is, it is only possible at low percent. Utilt is in the same boat, because it is notorious for it's knockback.

Dthrow

Downthrow doesn't combo. It never has, and never will. It is a wake up game. If you are smart, you can be very successful with it, but nothing is guaranteed.

The point isnt about who can combo more. You make it sound that "low combos" make them worse when a 3 hit combo that sends you off the stage is just as effective as a 6 hit combo that accomplishes the same task.

Again, DI. Also, Ike, Ganon, DK, Bowser, Snake, and Charizard aren't known for their effective gimping. The only heavy hitter that has an exceptional edgeguard game is D3 with his bairs, but he could already take his opponents to the edge off of one grab anyway.

but I guess if both can hide their weakness well enough, this point is null.

They can't hide their weaknesses. They have slow aerials. If you pay attention, you can see them coming. Even if you don't have time to avoid it, you have plenty of time to DI. The only way to effectively use their slow moves is to use them wisely and bait their opponents into going on the offensive and landing their blow. That is basic smash though, and that is not an impervious tactic.

Now we are dealing with semantics and the "what ifs" which isn't good for either side. So this argument is also null.

So it's alright when you pull them out for yours, but when I retaliate the argument is null? If you didn't want to get into theory game (really iffy territory) then don't bring it to the forefront.

Dont use the word broken. S canceling makes characters more overpowered. I know he wasnt top tier because of his aerials which means when his aerials (other than the bair) are more usable, he will be an even better character

Using the word broken is to my discretion, and my point still stands that D3 would not likely be broken with S-canceling. Now, while D3 would be better with S-canceling, most other characters get more help from the S-canceling code than he does. This would lend me to believe that any perks D3 gains would be offset by the gains of other characters.

When you see an aerial coming, just shield grab it. Not even S canceling can stop the power of shield grabbing in this game and since the punishment for mistakes are higher, this sort of aggressive playstyle is still not as favorable.

This was true in melee as well. Space your aerials so you don't get shield grabbed. Shield grab is not a bad thing, as it just punishes a poor approach.

Now onto the kicker.
Wind Owl pointed out that all of your options from shield have lag. Jumping isn't instant, nor is spot dodging, rolling, or letting your shield down. There is lag there. It's really fast, but it's far from the speed that Kupo is talking about. Take into account human error and differing jump speeds, it's easy to see how this just seems way worse than it is on paper. In practice, it's nothing like what Kupo is arguing.

ANOTHER thing Wind Owl pointed out is that if you shield an aerial, you have the exact same options as the person on offense; however, more than likely you can retaliate before they do because hitboxes typically don't stay out or hit at the moment of landing.

Dropping it takes about as much time as the lag on the move would which means the only way to reasonably follow up is by jump cancelling it or roling :S.

That's why I use both auto l-cancel and S-cancel.

I'll just point out that from the time that I experimented with S-canceling, characters with multihit aerials without knockback (or fastfalling the move to bypass a last hit with knockback) can pretty much just grab their opponent before they can even do anything.

I'll test this today, as this seems like a legit problem.

 

[kupo15]

Yeah, when I said that I was in the mentality of talking about heavy hitters, in which case their fastest option out of shield tends to be a jab or a ground move.

I understand. I just wanted to point out that they could also jump away after the attack which is less lag then dropping your shield

Power shielding doesn't give Ganon or Ike a good, reliable approach. Power shielding simply gives Ike and Ganon the ability to shield projectiles without damage to their shield and without as much lag. This doesn't make it easier for Ike and Ganon to catch someone that is being campy.

Well this is a character weakness. But they can walk forward, PS, walk, PS and thats good for approaching. If this doesn't give them against camping prjoectiles, how does S canceling do better?

In other words, you are saying the lack of Ikes and Ganon is due to their lag. If Ike and Ganon had a reliable approach that wasn't laggy then the lag on their other moves wouldn't be a big deal. As it stands, Ike and Ganon have to really fight their way in to actually land a move on their opponents much harder than many other characters on the roster.

How come there are some points where you completely interpret it the wrong way to a point where it seems intentional? I said "lag canceling" which refers to both "s and l canceling" which means its the lag after the attack that hurts them the most. And about Ike and Ganon "fighting" for their hits, why would they use the moves with start up lag at times where it would be difficult to land them? They would use other faster moves like grabs and jabs tilts to lead into the slow start up moves. Your refuting this with more "what if" situations.

You don't seem to understand that if your opponent simply held away the combo would have ended after the Jab cause of DI. Training mode combos don't mean much in a real match. Also, you don't seem to remember that I said that Ganon can only chain hits at low percent.

The jab alone ends the combo. Period. But you said that flame choke didnt combo into anything when you can tech chase, jab or Dtilt. The dtilt may not work for all characters but the dtilt leads into many moves and the fact that he is almost guaranteed a Dtilt after a flame choke is really nice for his combo game. And you apparently didnt read where I stated in my videos that if you DI away, they won't happen "at that level of hitstun" The hitstun we have now is MORE than the vids which means it is possible WITH DI. This is the second time I have said this and you still ignore me -_-

He can't string together uairs, not even at 0%. That is unless you are using more hitstun than 10%. He can only hit with one because the actual lag on uair is immense.

S canceling removes ALL ending lag from this move and you are in hitstun long enough to compensate for the starting lag. People die quicker off the stage because you cant jump cancel the attack which brings you closer to the corners if you need to be or use aerials to slow your momentum down btw.

I very much doubt his explosives combo much. You will have to show that in action to convince me on that. Up throw probably isn't a legit combo (as most throws don't really set for anything up) and if it is, it is only possible at low percent. Utilt is in the same boat, because it is notorious for it's knockback.

Umm, Uthrow is equivalent to most ppls Dthrow which sets up to an Utilt. You forget that you the stale move system is very powerful which helps the high knockback attacks very much...

Downthrow doesn't combo. It never has, and never will. It is a wake up game. If you are smart, you can be very successful with it, but nothing is guaranteed.

Yea I know not in that sense of the word, but you can tech chase so it is "comboable." Its not like it leads to nothing

Again, DI. Also, Ike, Ganon, DK, Bowser, Snake, and Charizard aren't known for their effective gimping. The only heavy hitter that has an exceptional edgeguard game is D3 with his bairs, but he could already take his opponents to the edge off of one grab anyway.

Ok, I guess they always have their foes return without trying...got it -_-

They can't hide their weaknesses. They have slow aerials. If you pay attention, you can see them coming. Even if you don't have time to avoid it, you have plenty of time to DI. The only way to effectively use their slow moves is to use them wisely and bait their opponents into going on the offensive and landing their blow. That is basic smash though, and that is not an impervious tactic.

Slow start up. But S canceling removes the ending lag. You make it sound as if all slow start up moves are worthless.

So it's alright when you pull them out for yours, but when I retaliate the argument is null? If you didn't want to get into theory game (really iffy territory) then don't bring it to the forefront.

No. I you say they cant combo. Then I point out the moves that are combo friendly, and you point specifics as to why they don't work such as "anyone can see it coming a mile away" or some other lame reason as to why they don't work. And yea, if you can see slow moves from a mile away, why is it that Falcon in melee was able to charge Falcon Punch kills from literally, a mile away? Was it because he used that to hit an active foe who can do anything? No. He uses the quicker moves first to lead to his slower moves.

Using the word broken is to my discretion

I said don't use the word broken because Im not saying its "broken" rather, really overpowered which I feel is a difference. So your argument proving to me how S canceling doesnt break characters has no bearing on the debate if I agree with you. You should be proving to me why they are not "overpowered"

This was true in melee as well. Space your aerials so you don't get shield grabbed. Shield grab is not a bad thing, as it just punishes a poor approach.

Oh right, so you could shield grab Fox, kirby, jiggs and yoshi in the middle of the Dair.

Wind Owl pointed out that all of your options from shield have lag. Jumping isn't instant, nor is spot dodging, rolling, or letting your shield down. There is lag there. It's really fast, but it's far from the speed that Kupo is talking about. Take into account human error and differing jump speeds, it's easy to see how this just seems way worse than it is on paper. In practice, it's nothing like what Kupo is arguing.

It looks worse on paper because the shields are too powerful!!! so when we have shield stun, whats on paper is what will be reality.What part about the "shields being too powerful" is confusing? And human error, you don't need to be frame perfect when you can buffer them..


From what I have read, you have been refuting a LOT with "what if" situations

 

[Wind Owl]

If we have S-canceling we don't need shield stun and vice versa. They balance each other out pretty perfectly, except that you can't spotdodge (or wavedash backwards) to punish lag with S-canceling... which you wouldn't even need with Brawl shields.

You can't argue against S-canceling by saying that shields are too powerful if the two codes won't even coexist.

 

[kupo15]

If we have S-canceling we don't need shield stun and vice versa. They balance each other out pretty perfectly, except that you can't spotdodge (or wavedash backwards) to punish lag with S-canceling... which you wouldn't even need with Brawl shields.

You can't argue against S-canceling by saying that shields are too powerful if the two codes won't even coexist.

Well I think this is where this discussion went wrong. He is arguing that S canceling is not broken without shield stun, and Im arguing that S canceling is broken with shield stun.

 

[Wind Owl]

Yeah, exactly.

 

[kupo15]

In that case, Ill stop with this debate since I want the game to have shield stun and thats the game I care about.

 

[Wind Owl]

One thing I am concerned about is that jabs in this game are ridiculous. Imagine Sheik pillaring with SH Dair > SC > jab > SH Dair. Her jab comes out in 2 frames and completely beats out all shieldgrab attempts. Zamus can do the exact same thing (although her jab can actually be shieldgrabbed). Their Dairs actually land faster than their fastfalls. Or Bowser could Dair (which ***** shields already) and then immediately cancel into Up B out of shield to escape for free or pressure your shield further (then Fsmash your face off when your shield breaks )

All of those aerials I mentioned have considerable lag (Sheik/Zamus' Dairs have almost as much lag as Link's) so with L-canceling (auto or not) and shieldstun this wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[MookieRah2]

I'm going to say that I find it strange that you thought I was advocating S-canceling with shield stun Kupo. I specifically stated at least 3 times that I feel that adjusting shield stun is opening a very large can of worms. I was simply defending S-canceling as a viable method to increase your offensive options to match the defensive options. When and if someone codes a shield stun code I will check it out, but at the same time I think it is unneeded, as S-canceling is a very competitive method currently. Actually moreso than I previously thought, but I'll get to that in a second, because there are still a few things I want to cover from your post, as they aren't very factual.

How come there are some points where you completely interpret it the wrong way to a point where it seems intentional?

I don't. I read and re-read your posts. I double check before posting and make sure my argument is sound. If I misinterpret it then I apologize, but also, you should reread your posts and make sure that your message is clear as well.

I do question your interpretation of my posts. You didn't realize that I wasn't including shield stun in my debate. That leads me to believe that you are jumping the gun a bit with your posts. I used to do that too so I know how it is. No worries. Just realize that in a heated debate like this you should be sure you fully understand your opponents arguments so you are better able to defend your position.

But they can walk forward, PS, walk, PS and thats good for approaching. If this doesn't give them against camping projectiles, how does S canceling do better?

I don't think you are understanding what I mean by an approach. Power shielding doesn't give anyone an approach. It's true that by power shielding you can close the distance between you and the opponent, but that isn't what I mean.. An approach is an effective, safe, and reliable attack or strategy that is used to get inside, bait, or pressure your opponent. Ganon and Ike have very poor approaches because of their startup and ending lags on both their air and ground moves. They have a few decent poke moves (like ganon's dtilt) but that is far from an effective approach. With S-canceling, that all changes. By using their long reaching fairs they can space their aerials and apply pressure on their opponents relatively safely.

The hitstun we have now is MORE than the vids which means it is possible WITH DI.

The new hitstun is not so significant to allow ganon to pursue and opponent that DIed away from his powerful attacks. DI will break heavy hitter combos very early because of the sheer launching power of their moves. I don't understand how you could argue against that, because DI is very powerful in Brawl.

You make it sound as if all slow start up moves are worthless.

I didn't say they are worthless. I just was saying that they aren't perfect nor overly powerful. Use those moves wisely and you can do well, but even then a wiser opponent can break through it. It's just how things go when you trade speed for power. The silver lining is that heavy hitters don't need to land nearly as many blows to do the job as the rest of the cast.

Oh right, so you could shield grab Fox, kirby, jiggs and yoshi in the middle of the Dair.

I'm very glad you mentioned this. As per what Starscream posted, I took notice too, so I did extensive testing. So I'll transition into what this post is really about. Starscream was right about Fox's drill leading into a grab.

S-canceling allows you to circumvent the shield entirely and go straight into a grab. Grab canceling, if you will. Any aerial timed properly can be grab canceled.

This is a list of drill moves that make for an easy grab cancel:

Bowser - Dair
Dedede - Dair
Falco - Fair
Fox - Dair
G&W - Nair
Ice Climbers - Uair (only works on taller characters)
Jigglypuff - Dair
Kirby - Dair
Lucas - Nair (Possibly not perfect, as we are dealing with a tether grab. Needs more testing)
Mario - Dair
Ness - Fair
Olimar - Nair (Possibly not perfect, as we are dealing with a tether grab. Needs more testing)
Peach - Dair
Pika - Fair
Pit - Nair (Uair will work on taller characters as well)
Sonic - Fair
Squirtle - Dair
Wario - Dair
Zelda - Nair (Needs more testing)

This is not broken however.

Power shielding stops grab canceling in it's tracks, because it allows you to roll away in time. Also these drills require you to be right on top of your opponent, so it's not quite as bad as it sounds.

Every aerial that allows you to land the attack right before you hit the ground can grab cancel effectively. Almost every aerial from every character can do this. It's something that is a lot harder to set up, because it's not as easy as simply drilling to a grab. This requires excellent timing, spacing, and mindgaming to allow it to work and grant you a grab. This opens up a lot of offensive possibilities, and requires a lot of skill to pull off effectively. It can completely change the way Brawl is played, and honestly it is setting things up to be more skill based and require more thought and strategy.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

falco's fair is ***** dude. do some more testing.

 

[MookieRah2]

falco's fair is ***** dude. do some more testing.

Give me more information, cause right now that doesn't make any sense.

Falco's fair is an effective drill. Falco's fair can be S-canceled. Falco's fair can be grab canceled. That means the fair is still being performed on a shield up until landing, and then you go straight into a grab. It's not even hard to do. This holds true for every drill in the game.

 

[Wind Owl]

Did you try Uair with Samus and Nair with Zamus?

 

[MookieRah2]

I didn't try nair with Zamus. Forgot about that. Samus can't effectively grab cancel because her grab takes forever. I think Zamus would take too long as well, but I really don't know. I think that Olimar and Lucas could still technically do it cause their tethers are really quick, but like I said it needs more testing.

 

[Wind Owl]

What about Dair with Bowser?

Also, what do you think about my concerns with jabs that I listed above?

 

[Starscream]

Did you try a shorthopped nair with Snake? I know it's technically not a drill but the first 3 hits (which come out in a short hop) don't really have knockback and can do some big damage all the while leading into a grab.

 

[MookieRah2]

I forgot about dair with Bowser! I don't see how that wouldn't work, so yeah, it probably does.

Also, I didn't test the jab stuff, as I was testing well before I posted that information and didn't see it. If anything, those aerials could probably be used for grab canceling as well. I'm not sure, but I'm thinking it's also possible to roll out of the dair -> attempts. I'll try messing with it later today and see what happens.

@Starscream
Multihit moves have to be timed. Depending on how you like to time things it could be easier or harder. I personally had an easier time grab canceling multihits versus a single hit move, but my friend who was testing with me had an easier time with single hit moves. I made sure to test Meta's fair to see if that would work or not, and it wasn't ridiculous easy like the drill was.

 

[kupo15]

I don't. I read and re-read your posts. I double check before posting and make sure my argument is sound. If I misinterpret it then I apologize, but also, you should reread your posts and make sure that your message is clear as well.

I do question your interpretation of my posts. You didn't realize that I wasn't including shield stun in my debate. That leads me to believe that you are jumping the gun a bit with your posts. I used to do that too so I know how it is. No worries. Just realize that in a heated debate like this you should be sure you fully understand your opponents arguments so you are better able to defend your position.

I do reread my posts too see that they make perfect sense and they do to me. Ill admit that Im very inexperienced at debating and getting my point across so that others understand it well so I apologize.

I don't think you are understanding what I mean by an approach. Power shielding doesn't give anyone an approach. It's true that by power shielding you can close the distance between you and the opponent, but that isn't what I mean.. An approach is an effective, safe, and reliable attack or strategy that is used to get inside, bait, or pressure your opponent. Ganon and Ike have very poor approaches because of their startup and ending lags on both their air and ground moves. They have a few decent poke moves (like ganon's dtilt) but that is far from an effective approach. With S-canceling, that all changes. By using their long reaching fairs they can space their aerials and apply pressure on their opponents relatively safely.

I understand. I just interpreted approach a differently. I know that once ganon gets in range of you, his Flame choke can be good for starting things. But enough about specifics, we shall let the player deal with that problem ^_^

The new hitstun is not so significant to allow ganon to pursue and opponent that DIed away from his powerful attacks. DI will break heavy hitter combos very early because of the sheer launching power of their moves. I don't understand how you could argue against that, because DI is very powerful in Brawl.

I understand DI is very powerful but ganon can move quite fast with his flame choke. I argue because I know it works and if you have 20% hitstun, im sure the heavies can combo well, but 10% like you play they wont combo that well. I don't use 20% nor do I advocate it, I just used it for extremes.

I didn't say they are worthless. I just was saying that they aren't perfect nor overly powerful.

I said you make it sound as if they are worthless. So I give you the benefit of the doubt but saying that it comes across as if you say it is worthless.

I'm very glad you mentioned this. As per what Starscream posted, I took notice too, so I did extensive testing. So I'll transition into what this post is really about. Starscream was right about Fox's drill leading into a grab.

Nice but I was actually referring to melee and I thought I said "melee" in that line anyway. But since your not arguing with shield stun in the equation, nvm.

 

[MookieRah2]

I think a lot of our misunderstandings came from the discrepancy with all the codes available. If we ever debate again I'll start things off telling you the exact codes I'm using.

Also, knowing my agenda helps you understand my position as well. The Kishes are going to have their next FC feature Brawl+ and Melee, and they were wanting as many people to test things and as many opinions as possible on it. I wanted to see if you guys, since you have been testing it longer, had some valuable information about things, and you did. The whole grab canceling thing is pretty crazy, and I think it would put in another piece of that competitive puzzle that Brawl was missing.

Brawl+ is great as is, but I feel that it is still not as deep as Melee. The dynamics of S-canceling and grab canceling help a lot, more so than just increasing shield stun and auto cancel, but at the same time it could end up breaking the game, although I don't think that it will. Basically, we have until January to come up with a really good competitive Brawl+ setup for FC. I think the success or failure of this tournament will determine if there will ever be a large tournament following of Brawl+ or not. The Kishes are a ballsy group for launching such a large scale Brawl+ tournament this soon.

 

[kupo15]

I think a lot of our misunderstandings came from the discrepancy with all the codes available. If we ever debate again I'll start things off telling you the exact codes I'm using.

I agree. We should definitely do this next time.

I think brawl+ is lacking the shield pressure game to add more depth but we will have to see. Its hard to have credible debates based off of speculation about a code we don't even have...till next time! ^_^

 

[kangaroo]

Yoshi is ***ed with S-canceling. With bad oos options, the inability to jump out of shield, a shield that takes longer to go down, and one of the slowest grabs in the game, it's often better for him to not S-cancel an aerial. On the other hand, l-canceling (manual or auto), allows him to pull off some pretty cool combos.

 

[Magus420]

All the more reason to have PS-Canceling (M-Canceling =P) along with the half aerial lag code (auto l-cancel, lol)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Everything shield related basically screws up yoshi.

Unless it's reducing the time to bring up or end a shield.

 

[Starscream]

Which is why Mookie advocates using Auto L-cancel along with S-Canceling (since we don't have a shield stun code). Your Yoshi will never have to S-cancel and still have his lag halved. Whether this puts Yoshi at a disadvantage to the other characters that can S-cancel and grab cancel remains to be seen.

 

[D-idara]

Neither, tech skill for the sake of tech skill will always be a stupid thing that hurts games, only people that could ever support tech skill for the sake of tech skill are etilists that feel like they're superior because they can press L before they land. If L-Cancelling actually had a logical choice factor and there was some benefit to not doing it, then go ahead and keep it, but if it's a necessary button press to not be punished, then the landing lag of moves should just be reduced overall.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Wow, this thread for Brawl+ is from 2008! Time sure flies fast!

 

[Gatlin]

I don't understand how people even find these. Please don't bump 6 year old threads~