S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

[Dan_X]

S vs L vs Auto-L Cancels!!?!​

Disclaimer: The thoughts backing this OP are not entirely my own, they are largely an analysis of what people have been saying throughout the thread.

(note: OP re-written...)

Manual L-Cancel

Pros:
-Can potentially separate players as it's a learned skill, be it a mindless one.

-Performed correctly means that you've halved your aerials landing lag.

-Canceled landing lag is proportionate to the characters' original landing lag. As such, a faster character whose landing lag was 4 is now 2, and a Heavy character whose landing lag was 8 is now 4. This means that faster characters are still faster, and slower characters are still slower.

Cons:
-It's a button press that requires very specific timing, as such, it requires different timing with different characters, as their weight fluctuates. However, many characters don't actually need to use L-canceling as they have auto-cancels or lagless aerials already. So why add a tech that only certain characters have to master? It seems somewhat unfair, right?

-Using the L and R buttons, it's not as easy to pull off L-cancels as you have to press the button all the way down. Where as in Melee it was analog based, meaning you only had to press the button in a bit for it to execute the cancel. This may not seem like much of a difference, but it definitely makes L-Canceling in Brawl that much more unreasonable.

Auto L-Cancel

Pros:
-Instead of making sure you press a button to reduce lag, you can focus on the fight, as you don't have to mind canceling as it automatically happens.

-Playing Heavier characters is now much more balanced, as they become much more viable with halved landing lag.

-Fighting becomes more intense, as all aerials that have landing lag are cut in half respectively.

-Canceled landing lag is proportionate to the characters' original landing lag. As such, a faster character whose landing lag was 4 is now 2, and a Heavy character whose landing lag was 8 is now 4. This means that faster characters are still faster, and slower characters are still slower.

Cons:
-There is no technical skill needed. ("technical skill" being that o so difficult button press. /sarcasm)

S-Cancel

Pros:
-Can cancel all lag from any aerial by holding down L or R (shield) at any point during the landing process. The point at which the button is input does not actually matter, as one could perform a move such as Link's Dair (sword plant) and hold down L from the moment the move begins to the moment the sword touches the ground. It will cancel the second the character touches upon the ground.

-Faster gameplay.

Cons:
-Heavy characters become ridiculously good, as they can continuously spam their best aerials, without even a moment with which to punish them.

-Though it can speed up gameplay (or appear to) it actually makes the game ridiculously spammy.

-The game is no longer balanced as far as proportion is concerned. For example, with L-canceling the lag is cut in half for both fast and slow characters respective to their original lag duration. This means the fast are still faster and the slow are still slower. This is not the case with S-canceling as every character is now the same. This is incredibly unbalanced.

-Heavy characters become too good. The reason heavy characters have more landing lag on their aerials is because their attacks are generally more devastating upon impact. The longer lag duration balances them from faster characters who's aerials do far less damage / knockback. As such, it's undeniable that heavy characters are buffed wayy to much with S-canceling.

Arguments:

Some people would like to believe that manual L-Canceling creates more options. An option is something that you can chose to do. In this case, said argument is moot as in reality manual canceling does not yield any more options. Canceling is always the best option, every aerial that has lag should always canceled, there's no scenario where this isn't so. There's never a time when accepting landing lag, and not canceling it is viable, as you will get punished. This then lends to the idea that it's not really an option, but a necessity. It's something that one must do. In conclusion, why add a manual button press to something that must always be done, as it doesn't add options but necessity?

An argument for manual canceling would suggest that auto canceling removes technical skill. This can be argued, as it's seen differently by both sides, but it really doesn't add much. Sure people will mess up their timing and receive landing lag from time to time, thus there will be more time with which to punish them. Manual pressing lends to the fact that people can make mistakes, and the better of the two players will cancel more of their lag, more often, and would have a potential edge. In conclusion, I find this argument rather moot. One can still be punished even during cancel as it's not a full out cancel, it's just doubled in speed.

Conclusion:

By now, it's somewhat undeniable that L-canceling is better all around than S-canceling, especially in its new and improved state (auto L-canceling). L canceling is balanced, and still has some window of opportunity for punishment, which is important. In addition, L-canceling halves lag with respect to the original lag duration of any given character. This way there's still a line between heavy and light characters. Fast characters still cancel faster than that of slow characters, which is the way it should happen.

It all boils down to L-cancel vs Auto L-cancel. Though it may appear to add more "depth," or option to have cancels be executed via a button it actually doesn't. If it's always the best option to do something then it's not really an option at all. Auto cancel helps each character proportionately, and negates certain characters from having to master a "technique" that other characters don't have to worry about at all, as they don't have laggy aerials. Auto-canceling allows one to focus more on the fight then timing a button press, which makes a better fight. With that said, auto L-canceling is the way to go. If you defy this notion, at least give it a try, and play with it for a day or two.

Hacks?

If auto L-cancel is backed as the standard, a hack could be written that allows for lagless landing by pressing the shield button just before you touch the ground (like L-canceling with the effect of S-canceling). As a balance to this, making it an option not a necessity, it could reduce ones shield each time they execute this technique. As such, it'd be a potentially costly technique, that would be a more mindful one. Spamming this would result in little to no shield as such it'd likely break. This adds more depth as now the idea of canceling is an option.

In the end, this would have to be written then tested. As it stands now, the game is fine with just auto L-cancel. Though, if coders decided to go the extra mile and do something different, this could be a potential option.

Thanks...
Orca

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

L canceling if the timing is made less awkward and easier.

S-canceling because its SO FUN OMG

 

[alex3]

Why would you open a discussion with such a blatant bias? I say you remove it or simply rename your thread into why l-cancel is better than shield cancelling.

 

[Rebonack]

The main problem with L-canceling in Brawl is the utter lack of shield stun. Heavy characters are still going to get punished on blocked attacks quite easily. Sure there isn't as much skill involved, but I think making more attacks (and thereby characters) truly viable for use is much more important than the bragging rights gained by being able to input a command within a certain window of opportunity.

So I guess put me down for S-canceling.

 

[Dan_X]

Why would you open a discussion with such a blatant bias? I say you remove it or simply rename your thread into why l-cancel is better than shield cancelling.

It's not about bias. I'm pointing out sheer facts for the most part. Everything I say about both S and L canceling is true. I even stated that perhaps I went about it wrong, as such, what does everyone else think?

Have you tried both? Care to input?

 

[Frames]

ok first off why are there two different words for the same thing

the l in l-canceling stands for LAG not L trigger, in 64 it was z-canceling after the button so people get confused, but instead of s-cancel and l-cancel, why not just say "melee" or "64" s-cancel just sounds dumb to me lol

as far as which one is better, i would say melee l-canceling, cutting all of the frames is broken lol but half is ok i guess

 

[Magus420]

...both. lol

vv (from the other thread)

But in Brawl what we need is something that's difficult to do to seperate the players. What's the fun in practicing if you can't get better than people? If a newbie can be on the same level as someone that's been playing for years, then there's no reason to practice as it's pretty much impossible to get good since good doesn't exist.

This is why l-canceling needs to be there over s-canceling.

L-canceling is not at all difficult for good players though. A newbie practicing l-canceling will get better than other newbies that don't. A good player practicing l-canceling... doesn't improve at all because it's already expected and becomes 2nd nature so they almost never miss it. Who cares if it further separates newbies from good players? There are far more things that separate them than being able to time a button press everytime you land with an aerial. What should matter is how it separates good players from other good players, and it doesn't really do much at all in that regard.


What I don't like about l-canceling is that there is never any reason NOT to do it. There is no strategy at all in it, and all it is is an extra button that you need to press every single time. It's also not hard for good players to do and they almost never mess it up. It's just... there, and you need to do it everytime regardless of the situation.

If all it does is serve as a mindless button press that separates good players/newbies that can l-cancel from newbies that can't l-cancel... why even have it? Why not just have aerials have half the lag by default?


If you wanted it in there, but in such a way that it also separated the good players from even better players one option would be to make the timing more difficult...

...or better yet perhaps you could instead put some actual strategical value into its use, so it's more than just a button timing you need to do everytime without thinking. Maybe give aerials half lag by default, and also have the option of canceling ALL lag but with some kind of negative aspect, so that it would require some thought of when and when not to use it.

Perhaps have it be similar to the shield canceling code, except when you cancel your landing lag with it it goes into your powershield animation (probably more fitting of an instant cancel effect too) so you could also cancel it into an A or B attack. As a drawback maybe you take a few points of damage from the cancel or perhaps something else, that way you wouldn't want to do it unless the situation called for it and you think it'd be worth it. Also, maybe have it be input with Z or L/R+A instead of just L/R or another combination so it'd be less likely to happen by accident when you wanted to just shield after landing normally.[

 

[Dan_X]

The main problem with L-canceling in Brawl is the utter lack of shield stun. Heavy characters are still going to get punished on blocked attacks quite easily. Sure there isn't as much skill involved, but I think making more attacks (and thereby characters) truly viable for use is much more important than the bragging rights gained by being able to input a command within a certain window of opportunity.

So I guess put me down for S-canceling.

Hmm interesting, I didn't think of it that way. Thanks for the input!

I'm still not entirely sure which I'd rather back, S or L. Initially I liked S, as I thought it was so fun. My friend however likes L, and we talked about it.. my first post is basically what I've arrived at after we discussed it.

Still though... I just can't decide which to use. S-Canceling is so awesome.

 

[kupo15]

I 100% go with L canceling. The window really is not a big deal guys. Instead of in melee where you had to think about the lag from hitting someones shield only to react slightly later for the l cancel, in brawl, you have to think about just hitting the person in general since the game slows down. Its not that bad once you practice.

Also your method for S canceling is slightly wrong. Its easier than you described because all you have to do is hold the shield button and it will pop up always. No timing required at all!!!

I prefer skilled l cancel which shows the better player.

S canceling is too broken by how easy it is and its really spammy and also, you shouldnt be able to Knee>grab combo at higher percents lol.

.


What I don't like about l-canceling is that there is never any reason NOT to do it. There is no strategy at all in it, and all it is is an extra button that you need to press every single time. It's also not hard for good players to do and they almost never mess it up. It's just... there, and you need to do it everytime regardless of the situation.

If all it does is serve as a mindless button press that separates good players/newbies that can l-cancel from newbies that can't l-cancel... why even have it? Why not just have aerials have half the lag by default?

Esp in brawl with when the game pauses, you need to be keen to do time it right or else you will miss. The timing is a little different and the pause factor makes l canceling a little harder. So I wouldnt say its mindless button pressing. Quite on the contrary, S canceling allows for mindless spamming of aerials without skill. If you wanted to do that with l canceling you would need to l cancel every move and SFFLing takes skill and separates the good from the bad.

Even good players miss sometimes and when they do that, its a mistake that needs to be punished. There is no punishment with S canceling.

 

[Dan_X]

I 100% go with L canceling. The window really is not a big deal guys. Instead of in melee where you had to think about the lag from hitting someones shield only to react slightly later for the l cancel, in brawl, you have to think about just hitting the person in general since the game slows down. Its not that bad once you practice.

Also your method for S canceling is slightly wrong. Its easier than you described because all you have to do is hold the shield button and it will pop up always. No timing required at all!!!

I prefer skilled l cancel which shows the better player.

S canceling is too broken by how easy it is and its really spammy and also, you shouldnt be able to Knee>grab combo at higher percents lol.....

Even good players miss sometimes and when they do that, its a mistake that needs to be punished. There is no punishment with S canceling.

Yeah, I guess I didn't illustrate S-Canceling well. When I tested stuff today I realized that all you had to do was hold down the shield button and it would shield as soon as you touched the ground. For example, I used Shiek's down air into the ground and held the shield button the entire way... I instantly canceled the lag with no effort.

I couldn't agree more with your last line. S-canceling = no punishment. That's not a good thing.

 

[Magus420]

Esp in brawl with when the game pauses, you need to be keen to do time it right or else you will miss. The timing is a little different and the pause factor makes l canceling a little harder. So I wouldnt say its mindless button pressing. Quite on the contrary, S canceling allows for mindless spamming of aerials without skill. If you wanted to do that with l canceling you would need to l cancel every move and SFFLing takes skill and separates the good from the bad.

Even good players miss sometimes and when they do that, its a mistake that needs to be punished. There is no punishment with S canceling.

Read the rest of my post. I'm not in support of s-canceling. I'm suggesting turning l-canceling into something much more than just a 1-dimensional technique that is always the best choice in every situation and you never have any reason at all not to do it.

 

[kupo15]

I guess I didnt make myself clear and Im sorry. I didnt intend to say that you thought S canceling was better. I was using that as a reference because the activation of s cancel is what your proposing for l cancel (half lag)

With S cancel, all you have to do is hold the shield button down which means you never miss and never get punished. If you want l canceling to be auto instead of manual, then you basically are saying that you shouldnt have the opportunity to be punished.

Then I went on about SHFFLing because that requires skill due to pressing L at the right time. If you propose l canceling to auto, then SHFFLing becomes mindless because you can SH aerial spam without the risk of punishment.

 

[Magus420]

I guess I didnt make myself clear and Im sorry. I didnt intend to say that you thought S canceling was better. I was using that as a reference because the activation of s cancel is what your proposing for l cancel (half lag)

That's not at all what I'm suggesting. The l-cancel button timing aspect would still be used.

 

[kupo15]

If all it does is serve as a mindless button press that separates good players/newbies that can l-cancel from newbies that can't l-cancel... why even have it? Why not just have aerials have half the lag by default?.........

...or better yet perhaps you could instead put some actual strategical value into its use, so it's more than just a button timing you need to do everytime without thinking. Maybe give aerials half lag by default, and also have the option of canceling ALL lag but with some kind of negative aspect, so that it would require some thought of when and when not to use it.

This is where I got it from. But then again, I think I skimmed over the red without fully understanding it.(sorry again, I guess I should go to bed)'
I say why fix something thats not broken?

 

[Magus420]

I say why not make something better if it can be improved upon? =)

Why have a timed button press that takes some skill to do, but is always the best choice in every and all situations...

...when you could have a timed button press that takes some skill to do, but also requires some thought and skill of when and how to use it effectively, and even provides additional options and mixups for the player?

 

[kupo15]

idk. sounds interesting, but what would that new feature to the l cancel system be? It would have to be really creative since a lot of us like the current system. It works so well.

 

[Alopex]

S-cancelling has lag.

It has shield drop lag.
In some cases, this lag is more than the landing lag of some attacks.


L-cancelling halves all lag.

In some cases this ends up being less lag than S-cancelling.

To quote:

Ok, that's it... I'm going to go look for how long a shield drop is. I KNOW it was on these boards somewhere. But it is NOT zero frames like in SSB64. It's just a very fast, constant speed.

EDIT: I knew it was 9 frames! (Or, apparently, at least for Sheik it is. It can't vary by more than 2 frames among characters.)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178230
<3 Ankoku


Now, let's look at what this means. Link's Dair has (I'm making this up) something like 30 frames of lag. By S-canceling, it has 9 frames (≈30%) of lag. By L-canceling, it has 15 frames (50%) of lag.
Metaknight's Uair has 4 frames of lag (again, making this up, but it's probably true) L-canceling (or at least in Melee) caps at a minimum of 4 frames, so Metaknight would not lose or gain anything from L-canceling his Uair (100%), however with Phantom Wings' L-canceling he would STILL HALVE THE LAG, causing MK to land with a nearly nonexistent 2 frames (1/30th of a second, people!) of lag This is LESS THAN HIS NORMAL JUMP LAG. By S-canceling it, he GAINS 5 frames (225%) of lag. Do you guys see the difference now? @_@

With that:

L-cancelling makes some characters ridiculously overpowered since there is no cap like there was in Melee.

S-cancelling puts every character on the same page.
Characters with low landing lag will still have less landing lag than a character using S-cancelling. But at least the S-cancelling character won't be so vulnerable.

If we want a more balanced game, then S-cancelling is the way to go.


Just because L-cancelling requires more timing skills, this does not mean it is the ideal choice for gaming balance.
We shouldn't put "separating the skilled from the non-skilled" ahead of character balance if there is a viable compromise.
S-cancelling would be that compromise.

 

[Magus420]

idk. sounds interesting, but what would that new feature to the l cancel system be? It would have to be really creative since a lot of us like the current system. It works so well.

The default speed of aerials would be halved, since between good players with just regular l-canceling they would be at half lag 95-99% of the time in 100% of all situations anyway.

The actual l-cancel itself would instead cancel ALL lag similar to s-canceling, but instead of going into a regular shield, I was thinking maybe for it to put you into a powershield animation which also lets you do A or B attacks directly out of it (and would also be a pretty fitting instant cancel effect/animation imo).

As a trade off for this, however, perhaps you would take a few points of damage or something else (err suggested having it damage your shield significantly which I think would be a great idea to balance it) so that there would be situations where not l-canceling would be the better choice, otherwise you would just use it everytime without question like with normal l-canceling.


This would give you some interesting mixups and shield pressure options.


Like say you land an aerial on someone's shield that is normally unsafe on block. You would have the option of being able to cancel this immediately into another attack that could punish them if they tried to retaliate. It comes at some cost to you however so it's not always going to be the best choice, and so the defending player doesn't always know what you're going to do in that situation and how to respond.

However, in the case of regular l-canceling where in 100% of all situations you would go to l-cancel and get half lag (which in this case is still unsafe), they would know they can safely punish with ____. If it were just s-canceling they would know you would always 100% of the time cancel it into no lag which they can't punish on block, and would know to try to defend by ____.



It really benefits the slower characters the most which is good. Like if Ganon for example were to come down from above and d-air someone's shield, even with the lag reduced by half he could still probably be hit with something out of shield or maybe shieldgrabbed.

At a small cost to him though, he also has the option of canceling it directly into maybe a d-tilt to hit them if they try to punish it and perhaps follow it up or at least put them into a disadvantaged position. He could also cancel into an Up-B which is a grab (or regular grab if it didn't push them too far) and would get them if they instead continued to block expecting a canceled attack or waiting to see if he didn't cancel the d-air to possibly punish it more safely.

He could also choose not to cancel it so that by the time the defender, who respected his option of canceling into another attack that would have hit them first, waits to see if he didn't cancel it the Ganon player may be able to avoid punishment entirely or at least to a lesser degree.

 

[Wind Owl]

First of all, Orca, this is an A+ thread. I love it. Thank you for making this.

Second, while I do like Magus' idea I'm not sure a) how we would even manage to CREATE such a thing and b) whether I like the idea of taking damage for canceling a move. Ideally, it would be like Guilty Gear, where you have a "tension bar" (a meter that fills up over the course of the match and requires 50% 'tension' for any-time cancels and 25% for more precise cancels) that is separate from your life bar.

Magus brings up a very good point in that mandatory button presses are ridiculous. We've lived with it so long that we don't really question it anymore, but even though it allows competitive play to occur, keep in mind that the cancel was not DESIGNED as a cancel. It was designed so that you could shield quickly out of an aerial.. It was not meant to be used for offense. My point is, it was not designed with the idea that EVERY move would be canceled in high-level play, and so it is not necessarily a well-thought out or even good idea to have such a feature.

Combine this with the fact that in Brawl, very few aerials actually generate noticeable lag, and so only certain characters even NEED canceling. So if there IS this timed button press, it's not like every character is required to use it. Should slower characters inherently take more technical ability? In my opinion, no.

I will admit, I've been back and forth on this issue myself. When I first saw S-canceling, I was ecstatic about it. It was like Z-canceling but had the feel of "let's use Brawl's overpowered defense system against it," which to me is a really cool idea. Then, I tried the game with L-canceling and watched some videos of Ike with L-canceling and it just looks and feels smoother than S-canceling. But then Magus brought up the point which I hadn't thought about since I started playing Melee... Why should you have to time mandatory button presses? It's really very silly if you think about it. In Guilty Gear, ALL aerials autocancel on landing (the cancels I mentioned above allow you to cancel any move at any point as long as it hits). Maybe we should try THAT out. All aerials just completely autocancel without any button press. The valid point was made that in Brawl, there IS no shield stun on powershield and on regular shield the shielder slides so **** far you can't do anything to them anyway before they drop their shield.
So my vote is, simply put, neither. We should ask Phantom Wings to make a code (this would be pretty easy for him, I'm sure) to completely cancel out lag and see how that goes.

Magus, I know your point is not to make it easier but to reward both thought AND skill together, but I just don't see how we can do that, at least without a hacker that is willing to do so, and again, I'm not a fan of damage being the factor here.

S-cancelling has lag.
It has shield drop lag.
In some cases, this lag is more than the landing lag of some attacks.

L-cancelling halves all lag.
In some cases this ends up being less lag than S-cancelling.

I know I'm the one who made that point originally, but after thinking about it, there is actually NO lag if you choose to buffer a spot dodge or roll, and there are only two frames of lag if you want to simply shield. So I was right if the canceler wants to combo, but wrong if they want to defend. This idea that defense is faster (better) than offense is the major flaw with Old Brawl, so I revise my opinion and say that aerials just plain should not have landing lag.

 

[Revven]

So my vote is, simply put, neither. We should ask Phantom Wings to make a code (this would be pretty easy for him, I'm sure) to completely cancel out lag and see how that goes.

PW seems unwilling to create anything that deals with Melee in any way. I'm sure he'd see through our request as a way to make it more like Melee, thus, he won't do it.

 

[Wind Owl]

Ugh, all it requires it that he changes the lag to 0 and that he remove his timer system... I think if we begged him enough he would consider (let's not bug him about ANYTHING though unless we can reach something close to a consensus, though).

Fact is, though, we need a more willing hacker. ChiboSempai (who is a CompSci major) has said he could probably do it he had a Gecko, but that's $50 and it doesn't seem like he's willing to shell that out.

I'll talk to him some more about it; maybe I'll help pay for it or we can use some of the money from the upcoming Brawl+ tournament he's hosting.

 

[CT Chia]

without a doubt l canceling. sorry, but s canceling is far too eay. cancel out near 100% of lag with holding sheild throughout the entire aerial? no thx

 

[Dismojoe]

You make it sound like every pro hits every L-cancel every single time. If that were true, we would see people pulling off Tetsuya 0-90% combos every hit. Also, why shouldn't we make the player perform an extra mandatory button press that adds to the skill factor of the game considering this is a hack for competitive play?

You might respond with, all pros hit the L-cancel every time....but give me any pro video and I will point out several times where the player missed the L-cancel and they were punished.

 

[Wind Owl]

EDIT: Nevermind.

 

[Dan_X]

First of all, Orca, this is an A+ thread. I love it. Thank you for making this.

Second, while I do like Magus' idea I'm not sure a) how we would even manage to CREATE such a thing and b) whether I like the idea of taking damage for canceling a move. Ideally, it would be like Guilty Gear, where you have a "tension bar" (a meter that fills up over the course of the match and requires 50% 'tension' for any-time cancels and 25% for more precise cancels) that is separate from your life bar.

Magus brings up a very good point in that mandatory button presses are ridiculous. We've lived with it so long that we don't really question it anymore, but even though it allows competitive play to occur, keep in mind that the cancel was not DESIGNED as a cancel. It was designed so that you could shield quickly out of an aerial.. It was not meant to be used for offense. My point is, it was not designed with the idea that EVERY move would be canceled in high-level play, and so it is not necessarily a well-thought out or even good idea to have such a feature.

Combine this with the fact that in Brawl, very few aerials actually generate noticeable lag, and so only certain characters even NEED canceling. So if there IS this timed button press, it's not like every character is required to use it. Should slower characters inherently take more technical ability? In my opinion, no.

I will admit, I've been back and forth on this issue myself. When I first saw S-canceling, I was ecstatic about it. It was like Z-canceling but had the feel of "let's use Brawl's overpowered defense system against it," which to me is a really cool idea. Then, I tried the game with L-canceling and watched some videos of Ike with L-canceling and it just looks and feels smoother than S-canceling. But then Magus brought up the point which I hadn't thought about since I started playing Melee... Why should you have to time mandatory button presses? It's really very silly if you think about it. In Guilty Gear, ALL aerials autocancel on landing (the cancels I mentioned above allow you to cancel any move at any point as long as it hits). Maybe we should try THAT out. All aerials just completely autocancel without any button press. The valid point was made that in Brawl, there IS no shield stun on powershield and on regular shield the shielder slides so **** far you can't do anything to them anyway before they drop their shield.
So my vote is, simply put, neither. We should ask Phantom Wings to make a code (this would be pretty easy for him, I'm sure) to completely cancel out lag and see how that goes.

Magus, I know your point is not to make it easier but to reward both thought AND skill together, but I just don't see how we can do that, at least without a hacker that is willing to do so, and again, I'm not a fan of damage being the factor here.


I know I'm the one who made that point originally, but after thinking about it, there is actually NO lag if you choose to buffer a spot dodge or roll, and there are only two frames of lag if you want to simply shield. So I was right if the canceler wants to combo, but wrong if they want to defend. This idea that defense is faster (better) than offense is the major flaw with Old Brawl, so I revise my opinion and say that aerials just plain should not have landing lag.

Heh, no problem Owl, I suppose I should be thanking you first for you thread containing all of the competitive Brawl hacks, as that's where I got the codes from to try out this amazing stuff! So, with that, thank you! Excellent thread!

It's cool to see that I'm not the only one who is in a state of confusion as to which to back. Realistically, I think L-canceling is better, and I'm finally leaning more on the L-cancel side. I don't think that all aerial lag should auto-cancel... I honestly can't say why. I almost feel more gratified knowing that I at least caused the reduced lag thanks to even the simplest button press. Though, you brought up multiple good points... S-canceling flips defensive Brawl upside down, it's really quite intense. Now you have to be even quicker on your feet than ever before in Brawl. I do like that. As an addendum, you mentioned the fact that some characters, namely smaller, faster characters don't have noticeable aerial lag on most of their moves, so why include a technique that only the heavies truly have to master as it's almost unfair. It's interesting to think of it that way, and it's that thinking that makes me reconsider S-Canceling. It's really quite a fine line... I could go back and forth in my thought 29times and still change it again.

Basically, the reason I like to have to press a button to cancel the lag is the same reason that people who drive manuals drive manuals. They want to feel as though they are doing something, which is why they detest automatics, as it's lame. Everyone can drive an automatic, but not everyone can drive a manual, well in this case... I can't. lol.

Still, the reason I'm fond of L-Cancel is the sheer fact that it takes skill, and even the best player will always mess up. Even though it's a "required button press" one that all skilled players press without thinking, it's still one that can be ill-timed, otherwise messed up. It is this that allows one skilled player to punish another skilled player.

Hmm...

You make it sound like every pro hits every L-cancel every single time. If that were true, we would see people pulling off Tetsuya 0-90% combos every hit. Also, why shouldn't we make the player perform an extra mandatory button press that adds to the skill factor of the game considering this is a hack for competitive play?

You might respond with, all pros hit the L-cancel every time....but give me any pro video and I will point out several times where the player missed the L-cancel and they were punished.

Agreed. Again, in the end, I still feel that L-canceling is more the legit route... though, Owl's pointed out some things that have me churning in thought...

 

[MuBa]

You make it sound like every pro hits every L-cancel every single time. If that were true, we would see people pulling off Tetsuya 0-90% combos every hit. Also, why shouldn't we make the player perform an extra mandatory button press that adds to the skill factor of the game considering this is a hack for competitive play?

You might respond with, all pros hit the L-cancel every time....but give me any pro video and I will point out several times where the player missed the L-cancel and they were punished.

I can make your point stronger by saying that I've witnessed Mew2King missing several L-Cancels in his most recent tournament at Event 52.


Even though it's easier to perform an aerial with autocanceled lag, I still prefer a little skill in the game even if it's a push of one button. Think of it as having to press the space bar button every time you finish typing a word.

 

[Wind Owl]

OK, it looks like there's no getting around that button press in terms of popularity (I guess when it's been around for 9 years, it's hard not to get used to), so how do people feel about Z-canceling?

 

[err]

when i was playing w/ shield canceling, all i would do is tap Z on landing and i'd get my grab every time.

now.. did my opponent just suck? We didn't play long enough for him to try spot-dodging or rolling..

anyhow, i found the 64-style lag cancel (S-cancel) broke as ****


but.. Magus' idea is ****. i love it. maybe.. a "power-cancel" would eat a third of your shield ? so you get the 0-lag, but if you have to shield soon after (or even use another "power-cancel"), you have to worry about shield consumption.

though as an addendum, a "power-cancel" should never break your own shield.. just drop you to .. say 1% of total shield


god i might need to get the Gecko

 

[Wind Owl]

I love that idea! Shield depletion is perfect!

EDIT: How did I not even think of that? It's brilliantly elegant and makes perfect sense, not to mention sounds easy to hack. Amazing.

 

[JacobWins]

Shield Cancel is just here to hold us off until we get the old L-cancel back

For characters like Ganon, no lag whatsoever might be kinda brokenish

 

[SamuraiPanda]

There are way too many threads on hacking, and there are other threads you could use to discuss this exact thing.

 

[MuBa]

Well at least the thread's back open. Thanks!

 

[Wind Owl]

Like I said before; I think the "power-cancel" might be best in most situations; some players might not find the shield depletion as something hindering.

I say we make the code and test it. My buddies and I wouldn't mind testing the codes.


-Nox`

Well yeah, this is all going to need testing. But what if it COULD break shields? You lose a stock if you abuse it, basically.

It probably will, it sounds like a LOT would be written to the memory. Likely, it's going to probably use a ton of ASM, just like the SSBM Air Dodge code does, I don't expect such a code to be made anytime soon by anyone in this thread without a large understanding of ASM and how to hack the Wii in general.

Of course, there's also the possibility of asking Phantom Wings on how you would do it, I'm sure he wouldn't mind doing that as long as he wasn't doing it.

No. I foresee it being simple. All you would need to do is instead of the current L-cancel, instead of speeding up lag you just cancel into powershield animation and subtract 33 (or whatever) from your shield value, then for all landing lag, if L hasn't been timed properly, just half the lag. Not very different from what we have now at all.

Things like setting the animation and subtracting a value take up like one line each.

 

[Magus420]

Sounds good to me too. I only hope it doesn't take up too many lines of code.

It probably will, it sounds like a LOT would be written to the memory. Likely, it's going to probably use a ton of ASM, just like the SSBM Air Dodge code does, I don't expect such a code to be made anytime soon by anyone in this thread without a large understanding of ASM and how to hack the Wii in general.

Of course, there's also the possibility of asking Phantom Wings on how you would do it, I'm sure he wouldn't mind doing that as long as he wasn't doing it.

I imagine it wouldn't be much more code than the normal l-cancel code. Rather than have the timed button press that's already in the code run the half lag on the landing it instead puts you into the powershield animation when you land and does damage to your shield (the damage would be an added part), and the 2x speed landing lag animations that was also already in the coding plays by default. Also maybe change it to a less likely to be done on accident input than simply L/R, but that shouldn't really increase the code length either.

EDIT: Too slow xD

 

[pockyD]

instead of hacking in whatever-canceling, why not just hack it to directly reduce landing lag of moves?

l-canceling/z-canceling doesn't add any real depth to the game, because there's no benefit in choosing not to perform them; it's just an arbitrary technical barrier so that people who are "in the know" about the game can have an advantage over people who have not had the good fortune to stumble upon this site.

instead of having some button input to reduce lag, why not just reduce lag, period?

edit: my bad, i didn't even bother to read any posts after the first

i just came in here because i was curious about what "S-Canceling" was

i personally never really intend to play a hacked brawl anyway so i don't really care

good to know i'm on magus's side though; feels reassuring knowing for certain that i'm right

 

[Wind Owl]

lol Magus already wrote volumes on this, please read his posts

 

[BigRick]

instead of having some button input to reduce lag, why not just reduce lag, period?

yes, you could just find the variables that deal with auto-cancel frames and edit them

 

[MuBa]

Okay PockyD this has been bothering me for a long time...what is that music video on your signature from?

 

[kupo15]

oh good. Its reopened. Idk much about this new one. So basically is it like L canceling except your shield pops up and you lose some of your shield? Will you still have the problem of buffering spot dodges and such? Can someone link me with a vid of another fighting game that used this? im still a little confused.

 

[Stratocaster]

Between the current 2 choices, L-canceling is a better choice overall. One thing not everyone realizes about S-canceling is that you can press Z instead of R/L and you will grab instantly. Not to mention you can also buffer a roll or spot dodge. Having 4 new instant options after an aerial is overpowered. There would be no punishment for missed aerials. L-canceling is great because it makes everyone better but there is still more lag for stronger moves. A point was made that if Metaknights aerial was 4 frames then it would be only 2 frames, but that only seriously only a 2 frame drop. It'd be hard to react 2 frames faster anyway. (Can you buffer a Dsmash from aerial lag? That could be problematic.) Anyway, if link has 30 frames he loses 15 frames and gains a much more noticable increase in speed. So link would gain more than metaknight, but the powerful moves meant to have alot of lag still have lag. With S-canceling, snake, bowser, and ganon instantly move to the top, since they gain more, while some characters with really low landing lag gain alot less, since while they still have the 4 instant options: shield, dodge, roll, and grab, if their lag is lower or close to shield lag, then they don't gain the speed that say bowser does between doing a bair and a downsmash. Gah, thats a confusing thing to type, hope it makes sense.

The idea to half lag as part of the game is a possibility, but it takes out something you have to do, which makes it alot easier. I mean, everyone misses L-cancels sometimes, and besides its nicer to know your moving faster because you did it, not because it was hacked in the game. Either way though, it is technically hacked in either way. I'm ok with this idea, but I'd prefer melee-style L-canceling personally.

though I'm also open to the other "new" ideas of lag canceling

This is slightly off topic but still deals with hacking: have you all considered changing the gravity like the early days when people suggested heavy brawl? Well you can give the game any gravity value you want with the gravity modifier code. I set mine to 1.35, and I love it. It needs to be messed with to find the most ideal gravity.

Also, did you know there is a limit to how many codes you can use on ocarina? I tried to use all the "super" or "extreme" codes at once to make everyone super powerful (instant falcon punch is awesome!) when I turned them all on at once, with 1.35 gravity, wavedashing, no tripping, and l-canceling it said it couldn't load my codes. I thought you all should know that there are limits to this thing. We can't balance every character...

Last thing, what is the ultimate goal? is it to make Brawl as competitive as possible or to make it like Melee? Setting our goal here would really help as being like melee is quite a objective goal, while competitiveness asks the question "how much is too much"