S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

[Revven]

Also, did you know there is a limit to how many codes you can use on ocarina? I tried to use all the "super" or "extreme" codes at once to make everyone super powerful (instant falcon punch is awesome!) when I turned them all on at once, with 1.35 gravity, wavedashing, no tripping, and l-canceling it said it couldn't load my codes. I thought you all should know that there are limits to this thing. We can't balance every character...

Most of us know about the limit, it's 256 lines of code, Link made an updated code manager that shows how many lines of code you currently have stored in the .gct file you're going to make. You can get the updated code manager here.

 

[Eight 52]

I think the overall goal ks to create a game that is more similar to a melee sequel. In essence, it has a different physics system but generally the same mechanics. What is really needed to be done now is to figure our how much hitstun is needed within the game (Note that there was an idea about a set input time frame after each move) in order for it to be slightly better.

Hell, we're talking about L canceling draining your defense almost Guilty Gear esque to tension. I actually think that'd be an awesome idea.

 

[Stratocaster]

Most of us know about the limit, it's 256 lines of code, Link made an updated code manager that shows how many lines of code you currently have stored in the .gct file you're going to make. You can get the updated code manager here.

Thankyou, so is there anything that can be done about the limit or are we completely stuck with it? It seems to really limit how much we can do... but it may be fine. The SBR idea of balancing the characters seems ridiculous though considering that eventually they would hit a roof, but even that might be ok if they limited how many moves they changed to make a character better.

I think the overall goal ks to create a game that is more similar to a melee sequel. In essence, it has a different physics system but generally the same mechanics.

I think this is a pretty good goal statement personally, but do you all? Going by this it sounds like the traditional L-cancel is the best option, but some may interpret that differently.

 

[Eight 52]

I personally like the idea of lag cut in half unless you want to sacrifice your shield.

 

[kupo15]

We can't balance every character...

Last thing, what is the ultimate goal? is it to make Brawl as competitive as possible or to make it like Melee? Setting our goal here would really help as being like melee is quite a objective goal, while competitiveness asks the question "how much is too much"

That is good question. I believe that the goal of Brawl+ is to make it more competitive without changing the game. This means we should first start with bringing back the core mechanics of smash which are l canceling, no tripping, hitstun and no auto sweet spot(maybe). I do not feel that the current air dodge system should be tampered with yet which means no wavedashing. Its fine the way it is and esp since we are limited by the amount of codes we can do, I think we should stick to the 3/4 I mentioned and see how competitive it is before adding elements to attempt to further balance the game.

Why we dont need wavedashing and that air dodge system

Wavedashing is not a necessity to add depth to the gameplay. I know it will but it changes the game too much and its not needed. Look at 64 for example. No wavedashing at all yet it was very competitive. Now imagine brawl being a sequel to 64 where your defense is better which means a good fighting game.

IMO Brawl+ =/= Melee 2.0

 

[Someone7]

Between the current 2 choices, L-canceling is a better choice overall. One thing not everyone realizes about S-canceling is that you can press Z instead of R/L and you will grab instantly.

What's worse is that you can instantly jump out of a shield, so you can literally just hold down the shield button and do repeated shffls extremely fast. With characters that have disjointed hit-boxes in their aerials, it makes for an impenetrable wall of offense that you can not approach or punish in any fashion. And if they don't feel like jumping again, then can always instantly grab you.

Yeah, S-canceling is not something I would support as a "standardized" alternative.

 

[Alopex]

That is good question. I believe that the goal of Brawl+ is to make it more competitive without changing the game. This means we should first start with bringing back the core mechanics of smash which are l canceling, no tripping, hitstun and no auto sweet spot(maybe). I do not feel that the current air dodge system should be tampered with yet which means no wavedashing. Its fine the way it is and esp since we are limited by the amount of codes we can do, I think we should stick to the 3/4 I mentioned and see how competitive it is before adding elements to attempt to further balance the game.

Hitstun would drastically change the game. Don't take it so lightly - hitstun needs to be added very, very carefully. In the end though, adding it is probably necessary.

No tripping is obvious.

Leave the auto-sweetspot in. The auto-sweetspot is what allows so much more OOS aerial fights. The reduced fear of death allows people to get more creative when they're off the stage. I feel this aspect of the game should be preserved.

Wavedashing is up for debate. Wavedashing would go a loooooong way to stop defense from being to powerful, though. It would open up a lot more approaches and would make camping a lot harder.
If there's one thing that Brawl+ needs, it's a reduction in the effectiveness of camping. It's waaay too effective in Brawl, and it was never like that in Melee.

 

[kupo15]

I agree. But I think we should see how competitive brawl is without wavedashing first to see if it really is needed. All we need now is the hitstun code and I feel like I am saying this for the umpteenth time (lol) that hacking hitstun is EASY and you CANT mess it up!

The reason is brawl has a hitstun system. If you notice, after you get hit there is a "tumbling animation". anything before that is labeled hitstun. Brawl makes it possible to jump, AD and use A moves before the tumble. So, find a way to move the code responsible for those inputs when hit and move them to when you can use specials. Specials can only be done in tumble.

Its seems so easy and straight forward that if I had the knowledge of hacking and the tools, I would have already cracked the code.

 

[MBlaze]

Based off what l've read I'd say do L canceling instead, Shield cancel would be broken.

 

[GimR]

L-canceling is better,

With S-Canceling you can just hold shield down and buffer aerials.(Snake D-air = broken with this system)

Either way can you guys make it so the trigger doesn't have to be pressed all of the way down in order to L-cancel or S-cancel, I never pressed it all of the way down when I did it in Melee.

 

[Stratocaster]

Wavedashing is optional right now I'd say, it should be looked into more, some slower characters really benefit though and it gives them much more of a chance. Wavedashing with the Ice Climbers or G&W really brings back the characters melee metagames, giving them alot of speed they didn't originally have and much better approaches. The current wavedash is considerably longer than the original though, so it may be overpowered somewhat. Being helpless though after air dodging is VERY GOOD. It makes air dodging an actual decision instead of "slam R to get out of hitstun"

Someone7 pretty much summed up whats wrong with S-canceling ^^^

Hitstun is definately questionable, it'd be best if it could be put on some moves and not others, but that'd take too much coding and we only have 256 lines... metaknight + hitstun might be overpowered, but we'll see.

EDIT: oh and in reaction to the above post, can lightly pressing the trigger be registered? Then maybe we could add light shielding...

 

[Alopex]

I agree. But I think we should see how competitive brawl is without wavedashing first to see if it really is needed. All we need now is the hitstun code and I feel like I am saying this for the umpteenth time (lol) that hacking hitstun is EASY and you CANT mess it up!

The reason is brawl has a hitstun system. If you notice, after you get hit there is a "tumbling animation". anything before that is labeled hitstun. Brawl makes it possible to jump, AD and use A moves before the tumble. So, find a way to move the code responsible for those inputs when hit and move them to when you can use specials. Specials can only be done in tumble.

Its seems so easy and straight forward that if I had the knowledge of hacking and the tools, I would have already cracked the code.

It's not the code that worries me, it's the actual addition of hitstun to Brawl.

It's already been discussed how much more powerful MK would become if his lagless attacks also had hitstun.

Imagine if Pit's arrows had more hitstun than they currently do. After landing one on an OOS opponent, it would be easy to just use more arrows to send someone straight to their death. If they're in hitstun, they can't dodge the next incoming arrow, and then etc. This would be ridiculous.

These are the things I mean need to be carefully looked at.


EDIT:

Being helpless though after air dodging is VERY GOOD. It makes air dodging an actual decision instead of "slam R to get out of hitstun"

Be careful here. The current airdodge system is the only thing that makes things like Din's Fire tolerable. If dodging it puts you in helpless state, you're screwed against Zelda when you're OOS.

 

[HolyCrusader]

I think that L canceling would be a lot better the way it is. Sure it does not feel like Melee but once again Brawl is not Melee. Having a completely different, unique timing would require people to master it instead of being able to just hop over from Melee. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying that Brawl could have a different skill set than Melee. Also, I don't think hit stun should be added. Yes, it was ultimately the main factor for comboing in Melee but I think that if people were to Wavedash and L-Cancel by itself, Brawl would provide a faster gameplay. No there would not be any comboing of course, but the skills and techniques from Wavedashing and L-Canceling that would be applied could be sharpened into a different type of competitive play.

 

[Magus420]

L-canceling would be better than s-canceling, but power-canceling would be even better imo.

EDIT:

Be careful here. The current airdodge system is the only thing that makes things like Din's Fire tolerable. If dodging it puts you in helpless state, you're screwed against Zelda when you're OOS.

You can cancel out Din's fire with an aerial.

EDIT 2: Woops. Misread what you meant, lol.

 

[kupo15]

Hitstun is definately questionable, it'd be best if it could be put on some moves and not others, but that'd take too much coding and we only have 256 lines... metaknight + hitstun might be overpowered, but we'll see.

I already said coding is easy. Brawl has hitstun, we need to disable doing anything in it.

It's not the code that worries me, it's the actual addition of hitstun to Brawl.

It's already been discussed how much more powerful MK would become if his lagless attacks also had hitstun.

Imagine if Pit's arrows had more hitstun than they currently do. After landing one on an OOS opponent, it would be easy to just use more arrows to send someone straight to their death. If they're in hitstun, they can't dodge the next incoming arrow, and then etc. This would be ridiculous.

These are the things I mean need to be carefully looked at.

Well in that case, everyone will be 0-deathing everyone else like in 64, but the defense will be better so it will be harder. And I sense MK will be banned soon so it doesnt matter anyway. lol

About Pits arrows, that wont happen unless you are at like 200%. You dont go into that crazy twirl. If you notice, at normal playing percent, you just get flinched and dont go in hitstun.

Be careful here. The current airdodge system is the only thing that makes things like Din's Fire tolerable. If dodging it puts you in helpless state, you're screwed against Zelda when you're OOS.

These are reasons why melee air dodging does not work in brawl. The projectiles and some moves are too good in brawl to limit your air defense.

 

[Alopex]

You can cancel out Din's fire with an aerial.

EDIT 2: Woops. Misread what you meant, lol.

I don't think all aerials can do that.

And going further, no aerial can cancel out R.O.B's laser, which can be angled. That's another problem.

As kupo said: "The projectiles and some moves are too good in brawl to limit your air defense."

About Pits arrows, that wont happen unless you are at like 200%. You dont go into that crazy twirl. If you notice, at normal playing percent, you just get flinched and dont go in hitstun.

I know, that's why Pit's arrows are balanced now. But if you ADD hitstun to the arrows... then... that's when what I mentioned could start happening. Unless you're saying that hitstun would only be added to attacks that cause the tumble twirl.


EDIT: Lol, kupo, you keep quoting me with the Din's/airdodge thing, but with Stratocaster in the quote command. Strato WANTS Melee airdodge and WD. The quote was my counter to what he said. This is an ironic confusion.

 

[Magus420]

The aerial just needs to do within 10 damage of what Din's Fire deals and it will cancel it out.

Can R.O.B. continuously spam his laser on a recovering opponent though so they don't get any closer to the stage? I thought it needed to recharge a bit.

Instead of assuming them to be broken with the directional airdodge system, maybe it'd be best to instead allow time to show how overpowered and unavaoidable they may or may not be with it?

 

[HolyCrusader]

The aerial just needs to do within 10 damage of what Din's Fire deals and it will cancel it out.

Can R.O.B. continuously spam his laser on a recovering opponent though so they don't get any closer to the stage? I thought it needed to recharge a bit.

Instead of assuming them to be broken with the directional airdodge system, maybe it'd be best to instead allow time to show how overpowered and unavaoidable they may or may not be with it?

Pretty much any character with a projectile like R.O.B and D3 can harass the opponent. These attacks already have hitstun. If we were to add the Melee hitstun with these attacks...Well, the edgegame would be completely messed up.

 

[kupo15]

whoops sorry lol. I fixed it.

What Im saying is hitstun only affects you when you twirl (at high damage) or when you are put in the tumble animation. Since Pits arrows dont put you in the tumble animation till really high (like around 180% I believe. need to check) hitstun wont affect the arrows like you think it will. The property of the arrows wont change. The flinching you see now will attribute to SDI I believe.

However, if a Pit decides to charge his arrows, then you will get hitstun sooner. But the thing is, he would have to constantly charge his arrows to keep giving you hitstun and the hitstun from the first arrow isnt long enough to string multiple hitstunned arrows together before you are able to air dodge.

But if you limit your air options with the melee air dodge, you can get pegged like crazy.

Correct me if Im wrong about the hitstun stuff

EDIT::

Pretty much any character with a projectile like R.O.B and D3 can harass the opponent. These attacks already have hitstun. If we were to add the Melee hitstun with these attacks...Well, the edgegame would be completely messed up.

Thats why melee air dodge system does not work lol

 

[Magus420]

You have it backwards. On weak non-tumble hits you'd still get more hitstun, and since you can't do an early A attack or dodge on weak hits it would all be uncancelable hitstun that is added on them. On knockdown hits though the hitstun that would be added would matter much less since you could still cancel it with an aerial at around the same time as before anyway. This is all assuming the attack/dodge tumble hitstun cancel isn't removed however.

And like I already said, allow it to prove itself to not work over time instead of just going mostly off theory and very little exposure in real gameplay and experimenting of ways to deal with it.

 

[urdailywater]

I'm in favor of competitive gameplay and love tournaments,


but hey if it's makes it easier on me S-cancelling it is. My opponent will be using it too so what does it matter?

And besides, I main Toon Link. This means more of a challenge to me vs heavy opponents IF you want to put it that way.


S-Cancelling for the lulz.

 

[kupo15]

You have it backwards. On weak non-tumble hits you'd still get more hitstun, and since you can't do an early A attack or dodge on weak hits it would all be uncancelable hitstun that is added on them. On knockdown hits though the hitstun that would be added would matter much less since you could still cancel it with an aerial at around the same time as before anyway. This is all assuming the attack/dodge tumble hitstun cancel isn't removed however.

Do I have it backwards? So your saying that moves like pits arrows which flinch (non tumble hits) will still get a little bit of hitstun? This is the same as DDD Dthrow or Falco CG? Will this hitstun be a longer flinching, non tumble hitstun or will this convert you to the tumble quicker?

 

[nightelf56]

Why would you open a discussion with such a blatant bias? I say you remove it or simply rename your thread into why l-cancel is better than shield cancelling.

Yeah, it's not like your post was bias or anything.

 

[Magus420]

When you would tumble would depend on how strong the knockback is, not how long you are stunned. By increasing just the stun stuff like Falco's CG and Sheik's f-tilt lock would become more effective since you would stay in that flinch type stun for longer (you also can not DI this type of knockback like normal either).

 

[kupo15]

I was talking to Chibo and he mentioned this. That is why there has to be the proper DI that was in melee to fix this.

 

[Alopex]

I was talking to Chibo and he mentioned this. That is why there has to be the proper DI that was in melee to fix this.

That means you'd need a code that would make the Wii register C-stick being held, as opposed to registering when C-stick leaves neutral like it is now. This sounds like it would be a complicated code.

 

[kupo15]

Why cant you SDI? What makes the C stick Different than the regular stick? I just recently learned Double sticking in melee but I have no C stick on my wii mote

 

[Revven]

Thankyou, so is there anything that can be done about the limit or are we completely stuck with it? It seems to really limit how much we can do... but it may be fine. The SBR idea of balancing the characters seems ridiculous though considering that eventually they would hit a roof, but even that might be ok if they limited how many moves they changed to make a character better.y.

Nope, Link, the creator of WiiRD said so himself that there is no way to increase the limit. It's based off of the Wii's RAM, because the Wii's RAM is mostly taken up by what is loaded on screen, whatever is leftover is what we can mess with. Anything you try to overwrite is likely already loaded on screen and isn't wise to mess with. This limit is placed within the original software to hack, thus, it is not possible to change it due to the way the Wii was built and its RAM space.

 

[Magus420]

That means you'd need a code that would make the Wii register C-stick being held, as opposed to registering when C-stick leaves neutral like it is now. This sounds like it would be a complicated code.

That's not really the problem. The issue is that the game does not allow you to alter the trajectory of weak hits with DI and can only A/SDI them (or do nothing at all for weak throws like Falco's/Pikachu's CGs). You can do all 3 like in Melee on knockdown hits in Brawl though. By enabling regular DI on weak hits as well it'd allow you to escape many of the already existing and new CGs and single move spam combos that would come up by adding more hitstun.

 

[Ryuker]

When you would tumble would depend on how strong the knockback is, not how long you are stunned. By increasing just the stun stuff like Falco's CG and Sheik's f-tilt lock would become more effective since you would stay in that flinch type stun for longer (you also can not DI this type of knockback like normal either).

If we could somehow make the game allow you to tech during throw animations we could fix those since almost every infinite is inescapable due to the inability to tech during the throw animation. Dunno if that is possible though.

 

[pockyD]

what? why should all throws randomly be techable mid-throw?

 

[kupo15]

That's not really the problem. The issue is that the game does not allow you to alter the trajectory of weak hits with DI and can only A/SDI them (or do nothing at all for weak throws like Falco's/Pikachu's CGs). You can do all 3 like in Melee on knockdown hits in Brawl though. By enabling regular DI on weak hits as well it'd allow you to escape many of the already existing and new CGs and single move spam combos that would come up by adding more hitstun.

Sounds like a great solution. So in order to get hitstun, you would need two things (actually three):

Disable button inputs before the tumble
enable DI on weak hits
Increase the teching window to that of melee (idk what the window is in brawl but it seems short)

pockyD He means make it so you always go into the tumble after throws. in melee, Marth could do three CGs because it was untechable. But melee put you in the tumble after a certain point for all throws.

 

[MBlaze]

I think we should play around with the gravity instead of hitstun to fill the void so combos can be done, and the Melee air dodge should help that a bunch. And to the post above mine, I agree with that too.

 

[kupo15]

Gravity changes wont fix brawls problems. You will have what you have now....faster!!

I already said why melee air dodge doesnt work in Brawl, anyone disagree?

Originally Posted by Alopex
Be careful here. The current airdodge system is the only thing that makes things like Din's Fire tolerable. If dodging it puts you in helpless state, you're screwed against Zelda when you're OOS.

(These are reasons why melee air dodging does not work in brawl. The projectiles and some moves are too good in brawl to limit your air defense)
__________________

 

[Alopex]

There's a lot of constructive discussion here, and I am myself guilty of taking part of it, but..... aren't we diverging from the point of the thread?

If we're not careful, this thread could get locked again since it'll just become another hack thread, and we already have that main one.

Perhaps move the discussion there and keep this one about the S-cancelling vs L-cancelling vs inherent cancelling?

 

[Magus420]

Increasing the gravity isn't going to help when you can still dodge or use an aerial this early on knockdown hits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsF_zFKyvkY

If you remove that early interrupt in a tumble they would be unable to do that until the point they could also use B moves or jump which was after the knee had hit when the full duration of the stun passed.

 

[kupo15]

I agree. This should be in the other thread since we are not talking about lag canceling. Im still unsure about the newer proposed L canceling but I think we agreed that l cancel is better than s cancel

 

[Ryuker]

pockyD He means make it so you always go into the tumble after throws. in melee, Marth could do three CGs because it was untechable. But melee put you in the tumble after a certain point for all throws.

Didn't it put you in a tumble after you were disconnected from the thrower for a certain time. Hence you can tech the dthrow of falco and fox.

 

[kupo15]

If your talking about brawl...no. You just get that weird flinch motion while staying on your feet. This is why DDD can CG the majority of the cast but not MK, pika, falco...

 

[Ryuker]

No I meant melee.