S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

[kupo15]

Yes, in melee, all throws put you in the tumble position with some exceptions at low (0-10) perc. Marths Fthrow doesnt put you in tumble until 10%. Falcos Fthrow also doesnt put you to tumble until like 15% (idk the numb)

Brawl, DDD Dthrow never puts you in tumble and Falcos doesnt put you in tumble until like 100% even though you can DI at like 50. No tumble means no tech

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

can magus or someone make a thread explaining that adding hitstun wont do anything.cus its pissing me off seeing how many ppl say they want this added

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the only form of hitstun we need is to prevent attacks (not dodges) from occuring during the tumbling animation.

 

[Ignatius]

S cancel is waaaay too good.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

S cancel is not that safe, people can grab you you know

 

[Ignatius]

Yes, but that required you to be in grab range. Lawl disjointed hitboxes.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

if you dodge/block an aerial chances are you will be able to grab their shield when they land, with some exceptions of course (stupid ike), but its not that big deal for characters with good grab ranges like all PT's pokemon :D

 

[Ignatius]

If you honestly put yourself in so bad of a position you risk being grabbed, you can just insta dodge or roll*.

 

[infernovia]

...both. lol

vv (from the other thread)


L-canceling is not at all difficult for good players though. A newbie practicing l-canceling will get better than other newbies that don't. A good player practicing l-canceling... doesn't improve at all because it's already expected and becomes 2nd nature so they almost never miss it. Who cares if it further separates newbies from good players? There are far more things that separate them than being able to time a button press everytime you land with an aerial. What should matter is how it separates good players from other good players, and it doesn't really do much at all in that regard.


What I don't like about l-canceling is that there is never any reason NOT to do it. There is no strategy at all in it, and all it is is an extra button that you need to press every single time. It's also not hard for good players to do and they almost never mess it up. It's just... there, and you need to do it everytime regardless of the situation.

If all it does is serve as a mindless button press that separates good players/newbies that can l-cancel from newbies that can't l-cancel... why even have it? Why not just have aerials have half the lag by default?


If you wanted it in there, but in such a way that it also separated the good players from even better players one option would be to make the timing more difficult...

...or better yet perhaps you could instead put some actual strategical value into its use, so it's more than just a button timing you need to do everytime without thinking. Maybe give aerials half lag by default, and also have the option of canceling ALL lag but with some kind of negative aspect, so that it would require some thought of when and when not to use it.

Perhaps have it be similar to the shield canceling code, except when you cancel your landing lag with it it goes into your powershield animation (probably more fitting of an instant cancel effect too) so you could also cancel it into an A or B attack. As a drawback maybe you take a few points of damage from the cancel or perhaps something else, that way you wouldn't want to do it unless the situation called for it and you think it'd be worth it. Also, maybe have it be input with Z or L/R+A instead of just L/R or another combination so it'd be less likely to happen by accident when you wanted to just shield after landing normally.[

This guy speaks the truth. The concept will be difficult to implement. In SF IV, they made the parry mechanics a lot more complex where there were different levels of parrying. There is the standard parry, then there is a more counterable parry, then there is the unblockable parry. The unblockable parry is obviously the longest and can be interupted. This is obviously superior to the old press forward to parry because the attacker isn't in a pure disadvantage and improves mind reading.

I don't think damage is going to work that well honestly. I was thinking about standard lag between all aerials instead of halving so some aerials should be cancelled while others wouldn't, but I still don't think thats hitting it.

Edit: how about having all aerials autocancel but you can add invulnerability frames to it if you want. The downside is that you get sent to a helpless /whatever after airdodge animation. Or there is actual lag when you hit the ground. Or something like that.

 

[Magus420]

I don't think damage is going to work that well honestly. I was thinking about standard lag between all aerials instead of halving so some aerials should be cancelled while others wouldn't, but I still don't think thats hitting it.

It was later suggested that instead of damage the tradeoff could be a good amount of your shield being depleted when canceling the lag into a powershield, and I think it could work really well. I explained the idea a bit more in this post of how it could add some nice depth to the offensive game:

The default speed of aerials would be halved, since between good players with just regular l-canceling they would be at half lag 95-99% of the time in 100% of all situations anyway.

The actual l-cancel itself would instead cancel ALL lag similar to s-canceling, but instead of going into a regular shield, I was thinking maybe for it to put you into a powershield animation which also lets you do A or B attacks directly out of it (and would also be a pretty fitting instant cancel effect/animation imo).

As a trade off for this, however, perhaps you would take a few points of damage or something else (err suggested having it damage your shield significantly which I think would be a great idea to balance it) so that there would be situations where not l-canceling would be the better choice, otherwise you would just use it everytime without question like with normal l-canceling.


This would give you some interesting mixups and shield pressure options.


Like say you land an aerial on someone's shield that is normally unsafe on block. You would have the option of being able to cancel this immediately into another attack that could punish them if they tried to retaliate. It comes at some cost to you however so it's not always going to be the best choice, and so the defending player doesn't always know what you're going to do in that situation and how to respond.

However, in the case of regular l-canceling where in 100% of all situations you would go to l-cancel and get half lag (which in this case is still unsafe), they would know they can safely punish with ____. If it were just s-canceling they would know you would always 100% of the time cancel it into no lag which they can't punish on block, and would know to try to defend by ____.



It really benefits the slower characters the most which is good. Like if Ganon for example were to come down from above and d-air someone's shield, even with the lag reduced by half he could still probably be hit with something out of shield or maybe shieldgrabbed.

At a small cost to him though, he also has the option of canceling it directly into maybe a d-tilt to hit them if they try to punish it and perhaps follow it up or at least put them into a disadvantaged position. He could also cancel into an Up-B which is a grab (or regular grab if it didn't push them too far) and would get them if they instead continued to block expecting a canceled attack or waiting to see if he didn't cancel the d-air to possibly punish it more safely.

He could also choose not to cancel it so that by the time the defender, who respected his option of canceling into another attack that would have hit them first, waits to see if he didn't cancel it the Ganon player may be able to avoid punishment entirely or at least to a lesser degree.

 

[infernovia]

Completely missed the shielding thing. Thats an interesting idea. I also would really like it if you could shieldbreak your own shield by doing this.

 

[unwelc0med]

i'm playin melee for a while now so l cancelling. i'll probably play brawl in like a week or two

 

[FAILchion-]

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but with WaveDashing and S-Canceling activated, can Fox effectively WaveShine? And if so, can Wolf do it too? Thanks.

 

[infernovia]

Its incredibly difficult to jump cancel the shine. So no.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but with WaveDashing and S-Canceling activated, can Fox effectively WaveShine? And if so, can Wolf do it too? Thanks.

Well neither of them can jump out of their reflectors so I don't see how they would be able to.

 

[err]

Completely missed the shielding thing. Thats an interesting idea. I also would really like it if you could shieldbreak your own shield by doing this.

that's something we'd have to test.

some people feel like the benefits of a lag-free aerial game far outweigh a (nearly) depleted shield, and that one should incur further penalty (i.e. break one's own shield)


but really i think if your opponent can avoid your approach, he can pressure your (now weakened) shield as equally effectively as he had pressured your own..


[edit: on an unrelated note], taking damage is not enough for most people.. because the general conception would be "if i can take his stock from here, the damage is worth it."




obviously we need it running first, then we can worry about balance.

but auto-L-canceling + Power-canceling = win

 

[infernovia]

The only thing is that Brawl's shield auto fills if you can powershield.

Something to think about.

 

[err]

whoaa completely auto-fills?

that could lead to some unexpected results! thanks for the heads up!

 

[Grunt]

times like these I wish Brawl had a tension bar.

 

[err]

yeah remember when everyone was worried that final smashes relied on a tension gauge of some fashion? that thing would come in handy about now..

wait.. are there any items that measure some degree of intensity?

what about special stats, like longest drought? could we exploit something like that?

 

[5ive]

L cancelling requires more timing, and is more melee esque, while shield cancelling is too easy to execute and may make this game too broken.

 

[Grunt]

wait.. are there any items that measure some degree of intensity?

well,
MAYBE

something with stale attacks keeps track of how stale they are...
just throwing that out there.

 

[err]

hmm we'd need some function looking into how many attacks are landed in a given time period.

but then we're talking about a (presently) invisible tension gauge... we're exceeding our grasp here.

 

[Someone7]

S cancel is not that safe, people can grab you you know

No they can't. You can literally grab them even after they shield your aerial.

 

[Someone7]

Be careful here. The current airdodge system is the only thing that makes things like Din's Fire tolerable. If dodging it puts you in helpless state, you're screwed against Zelda when you're OOS.

(These are reasons why melee air dodging does not work in brawl. The projectiles and some moves are too good in brawl to limit your air defense)

It would just require you to do stuff like saving your double jump, fast falling better, and using your air dodge at the right time. This is hardly a problem compared to the benefits of ground based movement that are gained through the wavedash,

 

[kupo15]

problem is that zelda's dins fire is huge. Its hard to double jump away and avoid it without an air dodge let alone with only one. The problem I see with Melee AD is that projectiles are going to be more powerful than they already are. Ppl can just spam them to force an AD and then wait for you to slowly fall to the ground where you have even more lag upon landing.....and a charged Fsmash.

But we cant make a decision until the hitstun code is out and we tested it with both styles of AD. Its like when ppl (including me) thought S canceling was fine. But with further testing, it proves to be too broken and l canceling is better.

 

[Someone7]

Out of any projectiles, only Din's fire seems to me to be an issue (and possibly Pit's arrows), and even then only at high percentages. It will be more difficult, but not impossible, to deal with. You can cancel the attack with certain aerials, and you can jump out of the way, and you can fast fall to the ground, or fast fall below the ledge and do your jump and up-B recovery, and yes, you can still air dodge it. Zelda isn't the greatest character in the game anyway, and giving her more to do with Din's fire doesn't seem broken to me.

You don't land with any lag on the air dodge, not any more than simply jumping in the air without attacking causes, so your point about them waiting on the ground with a f-smash seems false.

As someone else once said, Brawl's AD system is part of the problem of Brawl. It makes the game more about defense than offense, and if removing it limits the defensive options in certain situations, so be it. You shouldn't be able to air dodge your way out of everything. Not only that, wavedashing opens up all kinds of movement possibilities for slow characters like Ike. I've played matches before where I literally spammed Ike's to death for the entire match with projectiles. You think this will be possible now that Ike's ground movement is 4x faster? No, the characters who are susceptible to spam now will be able to get around it much easier with the wavedash as a movement option.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

wavedashing isn't about movement, it's about the fact that you basically eliminate the need for spacing with all those sliding attacks

 

[Hylian]

I have tested both quite a bit and I find S-canceling to be more suitable for brawl. L-cancelling is nice, but I still feel that defensive options completly outweigh agressives ones. With S-cancelling it seems to have a nice balance.

 

[Magus420]

Considering that, what do you think about this proposed idea for powershield-canceling, Hylian?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5633295&postcount=90

It's somewhat of a hybrid of the 2, but unlike the regular s-cancel the instant ps-cancel goes into a powershield to allow more offensive options with it, but is balanced out by it draining your shield/defense so it wouldn't be something you just do everytime without any thought regardless of the situation like with a normal l-cancel or s-cancel.

 

[Someone7]

wavedashing isn't about movement, it's about the fact that you basically eliminate the need for spacing with all those sliding attacks

Have you played with wavedashing in Brawl yet? Many characters move around much, much faster with wavedashing. Yes, it most certainly is about movement for many characters.

 

[Starscream]

Have you played with wavedashing in Brawl yet? Many characters move around much, much faster with wavedashing. Yes, it most certainly is about movement for many characters.

It also makes your character look like a ******** spazz sliding around everywhere...
I'm not against wavedashing, it just looks dumb is all.

And I'd prefer L canceling if the timing is tweaked, right now it's just awkward.

 

[Hylian]

Considering that, what do you think about this proposed idea for powershield-canceling, Hylian?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5633295&postcount=90

It's somewhat of a hybrid of the 2, but unlike the regular s-cancel the instant ps-cancel goes into a powershield to allow more offensive options with it, but is balanced out by it draining your shield/defense so it wouldn't be something you just do everytime without any thought regardless of the situation like with a normal l-cancel or s-cancel.

Wow, that sounds interesting. I'm not one to hop on bandwagons though, so I would like to test it first . I personally didn't even really think hacked brawl was viable at all until I tested the crap out of it.

I really like the concept though.

 

[Wind Owl]

wait.. are there any items that measure some degree of intensity?

Dragoon parts XD

 

[Stratocaster]

I have tested both quite a bit and I find S-canceling to be more suitable for brawl. L-cancelling is nice, but I still feel that defensive options completly outweigh agressives ones. With S-cancelling it seems to have a nice balance.

Wow, I'm surprised to see Hylian supporting L-canceling, I almost thought we had almost closed the case a few posts back. You realize how how defensive it can make your offense? There is no punishment for missed aerials at all... if they try to attack you, after then you can shield, if they try to grab you, then you can buffer a spot dodge or a roll. (Attack then instantly roll backwards, that sounds pretty defensive) You can even grab them immediately out of it... it just seems like S-canceling is too easy and a bit overpowered. Though L-canceling alone doesn't seem like enough ALONE to rid us of the overpowered defensive options. I may have to test S-canceling again though, you might be able to pull off some chain grabs that incorperate aerials... hmm I need to try that.

Dragoon parts XD

This is an interesting idea... maybe how about everyone starts with all the dragoon parts, but the dragoon is disabled. For each dragoon part you get, you can do one "powershield cancel" and you get a new dragoon part for every 30 damage you deal. (If it regenerated by time, then that promotes camping, reward for doing damage means aggressiveness is rewarded, maybe even non-projectile damage only)
I don't exactly think we should use this. I'm just trying to come up with ideas/ spark discussion on the idea.

 

[LLDL]

the l-cancel and s-cancel r garbage. L-canceling in melee is all natural. End of discussion

 

[Wind Owl]

Oh, guys... We should stop talking about this because flame147548484246 says the discussion is over...

 

[OK'Ssuka?]

I just read what Magus420 had posted and think that it sounds, for the moment, like a great idea. My question, however, is how will this be code-able?

For reference, this is the post that I am referring to:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5633295&postcount=90

 

[Wind Owl]

Seems easy to code to me.

 

[PukeTShirt]

from what I'm hearing, without doing any testing, i really like the idea of the power-shield canceling, with a 33% shield reduction or maybe a a 20% reduction. PS canceling will be good for characters that wouldn't benefit from L-canceling as much, maybe we could have a nice combo of both? the heavy characters would get all the nice benefits of L-canceling while still having the PS-canceling available to them, while faster characters like MK who don't need L-canceling as much would have some ATs available to them too, but at a cost.


I'm loving the idea of being able to L-cancel gdorfs fair again, then once in a while, at low %'s, PS-canceling it into something else with the 0 lag from PS-canceling