Restricting Jigglypuff? (Serious topic)

[KirbyKaze]

You must be banned

<333

I *was* banned.

But then SWF needed me.

 

[unknown522]

Puff is ridiculously hard to play against because her movement + aerials = she can attack you while protecting herself = she's hard to punish without taking trading. She has huge room for error so if she messes up, she probably won't get punished very hard. She has an amazing punish game, you mess up, you probably will get punished very hard. She is relatively not too difficult to play, meaning execution is less of a problem at high stakes and players experience less fatigue when using her in long sets.

Essentially the only best solution is for us to just get better. We will learn to consistently have better spacing. We won't be greedy with our kills. We will learn to cc -> buffer roll away when Puff tries to shield pressure you. We will learn not to challenge her aerials directly and find an alternative approach to dealing damage to her. Jigglypuff will force players to have a higher standard of play. This is a good thing. People who play against a good Puff will probably be better players overall. We will develop a stronger mentali --- **** I GOT RESTED.

I give up.

hahahahahahahahahahaha.

It's pretty stupid, isn't it?

 

[ranmaru]

hahahahahahahahahahaha.

It's pretty stupid, isn't it?

Yeah, but he pretty much summed up the key points in HOW we can kill a puff.

Like I can spam pills and dairs against her. : ] (mostly pills for safety)

 

[BEES]

I just have to bring scissors and cut the puff player's controller cord. But what if they counter with a wavebird?

Help me smashboards....

 

[ranmaru]

Sure my good friend. Simply replace that person's batteries with the batteries you used for playing COD4 or L4D2 all night. Problem solved. Play a few extra nights (meaning extra pairs of batteries) just in case the person comes prepared/goes to the store to stock up.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I *was* banned.

But then SWF needed me.

LOL, I just thought your points expired. But wtf do I know.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The internet needed me.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I understand .

 

[omgwtfToph]

I sort of think we should spend more time talking about Darc.

Have you guys seen his hair?

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

A character is broken if you can pretty much just pick that character and auto-win.

Know who's hella good? Like, HELLA good? MAD ****ING GOOD? Darc. Darc is ridiculously ****ing good and is easily the 3rd best Puff after Mango and Hbox, and he got what, like 9th or 13th. To ban a character, that character has to be so good that it's unfair.

Jiggs isn't even widely acknowledged as the best character LOL. It's not that Jigglypuff is super good, it's that hbox and mango are super good. And mango doesn't even count anymore cuz he whooped on Hbox with Fox.

Just ban hungrybox if you want to make things fair LOL

(get it, because fair is the opposite of bair, and hbox = bair)

mmm, I wouldn't say that the character necessarily has to be easy to pick up, just easy enough where it actually makes a difference.

Also, Darc was one hit away from beating M2K. He missed a rest out of shield on a dash attack because he powershielded M2K's dash attack by accident and it threw off his timing a little LOL. I heard he was last hit from beating PP (?) too (not 100% sure about this). Don't be fooled by his placing, he always gets gypped somehow.

But yeah, I guess all this prove is that Darc is terribly anti-clutch LOOOL!

Ok but seriously, Puff is a really good character, but definitely not ban-worthy, not anytime soon.

 

[megapup]

nope. the argument is flawed anyway. OP is saying "jiggs uthrows you, and no matter what you do jigs has an option".... so does every character. the problem is you dont know which way they are going to DI, thats what mindgamez are all about. ps just get mango to take up another high tier full time and he can win with that

 

[SpaceFalcon]

2003 shiek was broken

2005+ fox was broken

2010 jiggs is broken

 

[Black Mantis]

ban metaknight

wait what

good stuff

 

[Strong Badam]

the current MBR ruleset already bans Metaknight. cmon guys.

 

[hungrybox]

what

10whats

 

[KAOSTAR]

what

10whats

MK is banned in the current mbr ruleset already.

 

[Strong Badam]

im pretty sure juan's post was in response to this thread as a whole, as "restrict jiggs (serious thread)" is an oxymoronic thread title.

 

[Black Mantis]

It can't get any worse than this (Or can it? No disrespect to Tero).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oqT2y4DRoo

 

[mastermoo420]

I'm sick of Tero's Jiggz vids and people linking to them. D:<

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think the real problem is that we banned MK.

MK was a hard Jiggs counter.

I think we need to strongly reconsider legalizing him for tournament play again.

 

[KishPrime]

TLDR; how the **** does Marth actually kill Puff without putting himself in danger of dying? She kills him at a steady pace (at least, I'm being generous and assuming Marth will never get rested, because if he does and goes down like that he's never coming back) with b-airs/edge guards compared to his erratic pace from constant gambles and guesses. This inefficiency on Marth's part makes me think it favours Puff/makes the Marth players go Fox.

Believe it or not, I don't necessarily disagree with much of your post, save for the fact you think for some reason Jigglypuffs approached Marth in 2006. Neo called my style air camping for crying out loud.

Nevertheless, I think that Marth does have range advantages on some of his moves, namely bair and nair, that can beat Jiggly's bair, and fair has low enough startup to be useful against an over-committed Jigglypuff. While grounded, I think that ftilt is useful, and utilt is an amazing move against Jigglypuff. You say Marth has to gamble, but I disagree that this is the case. I don't disagree that his followup opportunities are limited compared to Jigglypuff, which is why as the game has developed, the matchup has shifted. However, I still think he has advantages that can keep him even in the fight.

In the video that was posted, the Marth player way over-committed to many of his movements. He fell into the same traps I'd get Marths into, yes, in 2006. As soon as you get them full- and double-jumping, it's very easy to work around because of Jiggs' better aerial mobility. You can't control the spacing like you need to once you get that far off the ground. Marth has to stay very close to the ground against Jigglypuff and must space his disjointed moves much wider than in the video. Furthermore, utilt is an extremely valuable move for clearing out (and even killing) a close Jigglypuff, and I did not see that used often at all in circumstances where it would have worked. Marth utilt was one of my most feared moves as a Jigglypuff player. Finally, Marth has to milk the advantages he gets from platforms. Jigglypuff has her advantages with plats, but Marth can use them very well to cover blind spots too. Yes, it's limited how often you can use them because if you don't have a lead a patient Jiggs can force you out, but Marth can do the same thing in reverse if he gets a lead.

Look, I'm just brainstorming here, but I'm drawing on about 5 years of tournament experience and matches against the best Marths in the history of the game. Even if the matchup has shifted to favor Jigglypuff somewhat, I certainly think that Marth has more than people are giving him credit for. Whether that's enough to shift it back, I don't know. I personally think it’s a tough road, but it will be for any character.

Commenting on someone earlier, though, there’s no question the banning of short-ceiling stages has helped Jiggs tremendously. While many of those debates were going on, even though I opposed many of them I pointed that they would actually help my character tremendously.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Next big tourney I'll do better to demonstrate how to fight Puff.

A lot of good points have been made so I'm not really sure how to further the discussion right now.

 

[KAOSTAR]

im pretty sure juan's post was in response to this thread as a whole, as "restrict jiggs (serious thread)" is an oxymoronic thread title.

yea lol. Wtf. haha. nobody is gonna ban rest. Thats so dumb. We just gotta learn how to beat bair spam.

 

[Kanelol]

MK is banned in the current mbr ruleset already.

...



...


10....'s

 

[KAOSTAR]

Recommendations to Tournament Hosts

• Players are responsible for their own general welfare in regards to the tournament. In other words, players are responsible for:
  1. Being familiar with the rule set and stage list
  2. Entrance and venue fees
  3. Arriving on time
  4. Maintaining personal hygiene
  5. Controllers and Character Knowledge
  6. Minimizing Johns
• Sets are usually based on brackets which may be seeded at the Tournament Host's discretion. If your tournament is any other format, make a note to advertise it accordingly.
• Some kind of stalling prevention is highly recommended. Since a definition of stalling is too potentially ambiguous here, all instances of stalling are determined by the Tournament Host.
• Unnecessary delays in a set should be discouraged. This can occur before (not playing a match) or during (taking an unnecessary amount of time to counter pick) and after (not reporting) a set that has been called. The Tournament Host is recommended to keep tabs on set completion.
• No more than the previous match should be replayed in the event of a rule violation and it is recommended that any disputes be brought promptly and quickly to the Tournament Host's attention.
• When running a pool, the game count of each set in pool play should be recorded (i.e. whether the set was 2-0 or 2-1). Ranking in a pool is determined by the number of sets won. In case of a tie, the first tiebreaker is the win/loss ratio of the individual games, where the higher ratio wins. In the event of a tie in both set victories and match-up ratios, the player who won the set between the disputed players should advance.
• The semi-final and championship sets should be in at least best of 5 format.
• Wireless controllers should be discouraged or banned because of interference, unreliability (battery life), and time hindrance.
• The Tournament Host reserves the right at any time to make anyone leave the premises of the tournament.
• For all Melee tournaments, use of the character Metaknight is banned.

LAst line tweaked for emphasis.

 

[Pr0jecT]

Puff isn't broken at all.

Hungrybox is just THE HARDEST PUFF TO FIGHT. His style is the weirdest/hardest to counter.

He's not bad, he just hasn't developed the proper techskill at the level he plays at to really beat anyone with his secondarys.

With that said, Juan's Sheik could have made it to bracket at Apex. I'm still much more afraid of a good fox than a puff.

 

[rpgfighter]

Jigglypuff is the Marth of 2010.

Her 'metagame' is just a step above everyone elses, it will change in due time.

I definitely agree with this.

Just like Sheik and Marth. They all have had phases when they win a lot of tournaments.

I think Jiggs will be dominant for awhile but sooner or later I think people will figure out how to beat her out.

 

[Dart!]

I definitely agree with this.

Just like Sheik and Marth. They all have had phases when they win a lot of tournaments.

I think Jiggs will be dominant for awhile but sooner or later I think people will figure out how to beat her out.

i think the difference between those two and puff is the character design...imo alot more people enjoy watching sheik and or marth than they do puff because of

looks/appearance
moves
combos and ability to be combo
tech skill when using said character maybe?

 

[KishPrime]

No. Nobody liked watching Sheik and everyone complained about how she required no tech skill. SMYM1 finals were Sheik on Sheik dittos and the whole audience was grumbling and complaining the whole time.

 

[Dart!]

No. Nobody liked watching Sheik and everyone complained about how she required no tech skill. SMYM1 finals were Sheik on Sheik dittos and the whole audience was grumbling and complaining the whole time.

Wasn't around for that one...in fact i didn't even get into smash til SMYM9
i'm pretty young smash recordwise, but it doesn't seem like people complain about sheik as much. usually when i do i get flamed it so i thought people got over sheiks inherent gayness.

Floaty dittos are really stupid.

 

[The Star King]

Am I the ONLY one who doesn't hate Puff dittos? I would rather watch them than like half of Samus's matchups tbh.

 

[SDC]

Am I the ONLY one who doesn't hate Puff dittos? I would rather watch them than like half of Samus's matchups tbh.

I partly agree. I don't like dittos in general, but I don't really mind jiggz dittos too much because it's a battle of minds. It's whoever can outspace and outplay the opponent, but samus is just boring to watch, and annoying to play.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

puff can be tricked into going to high people. I do it sometime with pichu I jump straight over her to bait her to move up I up-B around puff so i'm under her and get an up-smash/control 1-4% for control/16% is a very nice trade. people may be able to trick her with m2 also if she stops going for the bait you can hit her other side/charge projectiles and etc. also I hope you understand i'm talking about jumping over at logical times like when she lands she can't move fast enough upwards.

maybe that could be the trap you full hop up and FF down to get below her.

 

[PB&J]

just stay under puff..wait for 2-3 bairs then attack and dont shield as much..

 

[omgwtfToph]

just stay under puff..wait for 2-3 bairs then attack and dont shield as much..

yea exactly

RUNNING UNDER puff is hella good too. a lot of people (m2k's fox notorious for this) like, get stuck in this loop of jumping around and trying to "climb over" jigglypuff when they get pressured, which is entirely the wrong idea

Also, Darc was one hit away from beating M2K. He missed a rest out of shield on a dash attack because he powershielded M2K's dash attack by accident and it threw off his timing a little LOL. I heard he was last hit from beating PP (?) too (not 100% sure about this). Don't be fooled by his placing, he always gets gypped somehow.

WHAAT are you serious? He got another phantom rest in an important teams set too (Forget who it was with, but I saw it on the live stream.

haha that blows D: poor guy

 

[Mew2King]

I 4 stocked Jman's Fox (again) and then Hax's falcon twice by just planking after getting a % lead the first night of Apex. She is broken if you plank, and broken in teams. In singles she is fine, but makes the game lame to me.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I 4 stocked Jman's Fox (again) and then Hax's falcon twice by just planking after getting a % lead the first night of Apex. She is broken if you plank, and broken in teams. In singles she is fine, but makes the game lame to me.

If you do come to Japan, I will MM your planking puff for $30.

 

[PB&J]

m2k- wasnt soft's fox beating your planking puff..nothing is better than softing son..nothing..lol

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

i dont see whats wrong with playing a puff

especially if you use fox

people struggle with puff to hahaha

me and pewpewu would switch controllers vs m2ks planking puff with falcon

when he'd plank id hit him and run then give the controller back to pewpewu haha

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

i dont see whats wrong with playing a puff

especially if you use fox

people struggle with puff to hahaha

me and pewpewu would switch controllers vs m2ks planking puff with falcon

when he'd plank id hit him and run then give the controller back to pewpewu haha

omg LOL. Is there a rule for switching controllers in teams? Say Mango and I are double Fox and I had two stocks high %, and Mango has one stock mid %, can we switch? LOOOOL