Restricting Jigglypuff? (Serious topic)

[Mew2King]

azen's just better <_<

but yeah guys, someone recorded mango vs hungrybox where Mango won 6-1 with Fox. Can somebody please find out who the person that recorded this was? this was at Apex2

 

[SDC]

azen's just better <_<

but yeah guys, someone recorded mango vs hungrybox where Mango won 6-1 with Fox. Can somebody please find out who the person that recorded this was? this was at Apex2

M2K is gonna pull 2 all-nighters studying those vids, memorizing the techs EXACTLY.

 

[KishPrime]

Clearly Azen is better, but he didn't just magically do better than other Marths. He had tactics, spacing, and timing that was superior, and thus was not under the same kind of pressure that other Marths felt. There no reason the tactics can't be duplicated, if someone with enough talent works hard enough at it. Caveman did really well with it too, because he played against Jigglypuff all the time since Zulu was his crewmate.

 

[Winston]

Stages with a ton of vertical movement are really bad for Jiggs. I never told anyone that during my playing days. One of my worst matches was against Rob& when he went Sheik on KJ64 and just jumped around the plats throwing needles and running away. I couldn't move vertical fast enough to keep up with Sheik. Seems to be that would still work, since Jiggs vertical climb speed hasn't changed. Falco/Fox should be able to abuse that as well.

People just need to think outside the box a bit. From my experiences against Azen, I'm still on board with Marth as a potential counter to Jiggly, even though I beat most other Marths.

doesn't this speak more about the stage KJ64 than about general strategies to fight Jigglypuff with?

 

[KishPrime]

doesn't this speak more about the stage KJ64 than about general strategies to fight Jigglypuff with?

I'd think it would work on other stages with a lot of vertical movement as well. I've played against players using the vertical game extremely well on Dreamland and Brinstar, believe it or not, as well. They're obviously not as effective because they don't have two high plats, but when someone can control that element of the game, it's one of the few times I ever felt extremely disadvantaged playing as Jigglypuff.

I personally don't like the stage KJ, but I don't think it's a stage that needs banning. Enough characters can do well there.

 

[Archangel]

Marth vs Jiggs in 2010+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QxWhd0nDf4&feature=sub

Something has got to be done about this

 

[Mahone]

Marth vs Jiggs in 2010+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QxWhd0nDf4&feature=sub

Something has got to be done about this

That marth looked like he wasnt trying, im pretty sure someone like you would do alot better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't get it. Let's nerf a character who general consensus says isn't the best character in the game? Why would we do that? Just because Hungrybox isn't as flashy or fun to watch as other players, just because you don't have to move your fingers as fast to play Puff, and just because some people construe rest as an "easy kill" doesn't mean there's any reason to nerf the character by banning the rest. Really I don't see your argument here, all you say is "OMG HBOX BEAT M2K AND LOOK HE PLAYS SO GAY THAT MEANS PUFF IS TOO GOOD AMIRITE". Unless you honestly believe that Jigglypuff is so far and away the best character in the game that she needs a nerf, which you'll be pretty hard-pressed to defend, I don't see the need for banning rest.

I have one word for this entire argument.

"Wobbling."

 

[ArstNeio]

I have one word for this entire argument.

"Wobbling."

Man, KirbyKaze, why are you so good at the game that is Smashboards?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually I'm Colbol hasn't given Hungrybox a chllenge in almost a year if I remember correctly. In fact the last time they played it was a **** 3-0 for Colbol.

Uh...Colin definitely won a couple of Wato's this year.

He has the problem of being very inconsistent, but he still manages to go almost even with Hbox, despite the kinds of placings he gets OoS. Florida just doesn't record as much so you don't get to see it (we have A LOT of tournaments and few actually get recorded).

 

[Europhoria]

Clearly Azen is better, but he didn't just magically do better than other Marths. He had tactics, spacing, and timing that was superior, and thus was not under the same kind of pressure that other Marths felt. There no reason the tactics can't be duplicated, if someone with enough talent works hard enough at it. Caveman did really well with it too, because he played against Jigglypuff all the time since Zulu was his crewmate.

It's not 06 anymore where Marth camps and Puff runs into the sword and takes literally hundreds of percent for no reason. Puff's side of the match up has come a long way lol

 

[KishPrime]

It's not 06 anymore where Marth camps and Puff runs into the sword and takes literally hundreds of percent for no reason. Puff's side of the match up has come a long way lol

More contribution, less ridiculousness, please.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I think there was only 1 puff in top 16 at Apex and only 2 at Pound 4. Since Genesis there hasn't been a single tournament where more than 2 puffs have done extremely well. It may get to the point where Jigs deserves to be banned but we haven't reached there yet.

Brawl has more than have of its top 16 as MK mains at probably every important tournament... why should we ban a character for just 2 puff players doing extremely well??? she'll go down in the tier list in due time... her metagame has just evolved more this past year or so ... more than any other character at least

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

This is how I see it puff takes care of sheiks I take care of puffs and then lose to a peach whihc is ***** by a marth who ***** by everyone esle as falcon taunts us all and wins. Distractions I've mastered them.

 

[Europhoria]

More contribution, less ridiculousness, please.

Assuming it's 06 where the Puffs run into a camping Marth anyways, sword range is irrelevant, a great many characters out range Puff with even more power/less lag then Marth (I don't mean super laggy forward smash, I mean like Sheik's b-air). Jigglypuff has no problem getting inside your range, no matter who you are. I think we can agree it's not a good way to anaylze the match up to say something like "use your sword and range, just never get hit". I think it comes down to how efficiently Puff kills Marth vs. how inefficiently he kills her.

Because of her unique mechanics whereby you can't really combo her or punish her mistakes for more then maybe 25%, but usually a lot less, she can make mistakes at a ratio of like 3:1 on yours; she might die off the side/top at like 90-100% if you get lucky (if you're not fox, for him it's earlier) but that's all 'single' hits. So that's maybe 7+ hits you need there assuming 13-15% a hit (average aerial) and assuming you can get the gamble right in the end with a f-smash (restable btw if you miss). It's almost like Brawl for her, you shouldn't approach but even if you do, you're not gonna get punished for more then 1 hit, maybe 2 anyways.

So you can try approaching and preventing her from setting up. Yeah try to approach for 15-25% but what if you mess up your approach or she calls you for what you're doing? Then you get *****, the bigger the payout you're going for the more likely you are to die if you mess up. Is it really worth it to have to gamble 15-25% damage repeatedly if you'll take a combo back for it? or a rest? You have to be right at least 6 times if you go for a big punish each time, more for something that'll do less %, but she only needs to get it right once or twice for you to die.

On the flip side, she's not gambling to kill you. Her game is so safe, especially since she can match your range in terms of how far from wherever she's standing she can throw a b-air out and land back where she was. It's just camping space back, weaving around your sword with b-air camping, shielding whatever you do to a free b-air while hoping you try to grab or f-smash or whatever. If you whiff a grab you die as Marth. She's just hoping for what Marth is; that the person sitting beside you will a mistake first so they can punish. Except she can get decent punishes. It's not just random single hits, she can keep following up and tech chase or combo.


TLDR; how the **** does Marth actually kill Puff without putting himself in danger of dying? She kills him at a steady pace (at least, I'm being generous and assuming Marth will never get rested, because if he does and goes down like that he's never coming back) with b-airs/edge guards compared to his erratic pace from constant gambles and guesses. This inefficiency on Marth's part makes me think it favours Puff/makes the Marth players go Fox.

 

[ranmaru]

It's like we have to HIT her without getting hit in the process, but that isn't easy to do. Luckily me as doc I have pills to spam, so I can spam from a bit of distance, and then attack with well spaced bairs or something. But what matters is just adding on percent and running away, not combo-ing her. **** combos. Guerilla tactics people.

But there is probably ALOT more needed to be done, that I may not know at my level of play. I hope I do learn more. : ]

 

[KirbyKaze]

What I dislike about the "dies at 60%" argument is that it often involves you needing a grab or similarly unsafe move and then the "Jiggs sucks" camp ignores that by using that move you put yourself at risk for Rest, which will kill you at pretty much any percent (11-15%+ depending on stage/character).

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually, the problem is that if Marth guesses wrong as many times as he guesses right, Marth will eventually lose because Jigg's bair is much better for setting up kills than Marth's fair. Marth HAS to gamble on landing random f-smashes to have any shot at winning, because the "slow and steady" route simply does not work.

 

[PB&J]

kage almsot beat some scrubby puff named hbox with ganon..lol

stop bringing brawl topics to the melee community

hbox is just good

CLOSE THIS THREAD..PLEAAAAAAASE

 

[ranmaru]

wow omg I just had some pb&j (goober; I like it mixed up because it feels more meshed in than actually spreading the pb and then squeezin the jelly from the bottle it doesn't feel TOGETHER) right now great timing. : ]

oh yeah Jiggs is fun. YOU KNOW WHAT. MK in brawl is fun too!

<3

 

[BEES]

Fun fact puffs ump isn't high enough to jump onto any platform in the game other than maybe FoDs. so puff must use at least 2 jumps to get up to the platform on KJ64 3 jumps. Puff is very slow at up n downs.

I'm amazed that no one gays puff enough. If only puff didn't counter sheik then the gay sheiks would take care of puff. So we need gay falcos and junk.

We have gay falcos that could potentially beat Hbox. There were 6 Falcos that made it into brackets at Apex. There were 17 Foxes though. 17. Half the people in brackets played Fox.

I think it's time to admit Fox really doesn't have an advantage. If we're saying people have to play AS GOOD AS Hbox to beat him, that is the very definition of EVEN STEVEN.

Furthermore, I think Marth needs to be re-explored as a character. I think he will turn out to be the real puff counter, and the proliferation of puff can be explained by Marth's disappearance from the face of the earth in recent years.

 

[Pi]

Protip:
Putting (serious topic) in the thread title does not in fact make it a serious topic

 

[Dart!]

jiggs sounds alot like makoto in SF3...she guesses right about 2-3 times, she wins. but...it ain't so easy for makoto as it is jiggs...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Man, KirbyKaze, why are you so good at the game that is Smashboards?

Because I'm broken.

 

[Deleted member]

Protip:
Putting (serious topic) in the thread title does not in fact make it a serious topic

Unfortunately from the looks of it, it in fact does make it in fact does make it a serious thread.

What are the proposed methods of restricting jigglypuff by the anti-puffers, and how can they be enforced?

 

[SDC]

Because I'm broken.

You must be banned

<333

 

[Crazy Cloud]

It would also help to balance Jiggly if the stage selection wasn't getting smaller and smaller each year. Take a look at the Apex Stage Legality List.


Counterpicks 1v1:
Kongo Jungle
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Pokemon Stadium


Now take a look at MLG's Stage Legality List


Counterpicks 1v1:
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Green Greens
Corneria
Brinstar
Mute City
Pokefloats
Kongo Jungle


In Apex's counterpicks, what stage is really bad for her to play on? In my opinion, it'd probably be Rainbow Cruise, and even then, it isn't so bad. In MLG's counterpicks, there's a couple she's bad at. Corneria, Green Greens, Jungle Japes.

I think that's one reason why Jiggly is becoming dominant.

 

[EPsilon933]

It would also help to balance Jiggly if the stage selection wasn't getting smaller and smaller each year. Take a look at the Apex Stage Legality List.


Counterpicks 1v1:
Kongo Jungle
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Pokemon Stadium


Now take a look at MLG's Stage Legality List


Counterpicks 1v1:
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Green Greens
Corneria
Brinstar
Mute City
Pokefloats
Kongo Jungle


In Apex's counterpicks, what stage is really bad for her to play on? In my opinion, it'd probably be Rainbow Cruise, and even then, it isn't so bad. In MLG's counterpicks, there's a couple she's bad at. Corneria, Green Greens, Jungle Japes.

I think that's one reason why Jiggly is becoming dominant.

I think it's just because people learned how to abuse this move

 

[Crazy Cloud]

I think it's just because people learned how to abuse this move

Just the bair?

 

[Kanelol]

ban metaknight

wait what

 

[EPsilon933]

Just the bair?

Resting is optional, but all you need is a bair. Did you know that Hungrybox used bair 115 times against ARmada in grand finals game 3, starting from the 5:30 mark. And that's of course not counting all the bairs before 5:30. I counted, and during the count, I told a guy near me to count bairs to make watching the last game more entertaining, including me looking away to tell him.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Puff is ridiculously hard to play against because her movement + aerials = she can attack you while protecting herself = she's hard to punish without taking trading. She has huge room for error so if she messes up, she probably won't get punished very hard. She has an amazing punish game, you mess up, you probably will get punished very hard. She is relatively not too difficult to play, meaning execution is less of a problem at high stakes and players experience less fatigue when using her in long sets.

Essentially the only best solution is for us to just get better. We will learn to consistently have better spacing. We won't be greedy with our kills. We will learn to cc -> buffer roll away when Puff tries to shield pressure you. We will learn not to challenge her aerials directly and find an alternative approach to dealing damage to her. Jigglypuff will force players to have a higher standard of play. This is a good thing. People who play against a good Puff will probably be better players overall. We will develop a stronger mentali --- **** I GOT RESTED.

I give up.

 

[JOE!]

ban metaknight

wait what

yeah, both games seem to have trouble with air-based round things with stupid attacks, no?


*looks at 64 pika*

****...

 

[EPsilon933]

yeah, both games seem to have trouble with air-based round things with stupid attacks, no?


*looks at 64 pika*

****...

Obviously, in order for floating balls to dominate, insanely good players need to use them. Isai uses everyone, so his Kirby doesn't count.

 

[Eggm]

Jungle japes is bad for jiggs?

 

[ranmaru]

Puff is ridiculously hard to play against because her movement + aerials = she can attack you while protecting herself = she's hard to punish without taking trading. She has huge room for error so if she messes up, she probably won't get punished very hard. She has an amazing punish game, you mess up, you probably will get punished very hard. She is relatively not too difficult to play, meaning execution is less of a problem at high stakes and players experience less fatigue when using her in long sets.

Essentially the only best solution is for us to just get better. We will learn to consistently have better spacing. We won't be greedy with our kills. We will learn to cc -> buffer roll away when Puff tries to shield pressure you. We will learn not to challenge her aerials directly and find an alternative approach to dealing damage to her. Jigglypuff will force players to have a higher standard of play. This is a good thing. People who play against a good Puff will probably be better players overall. We will develop a stronger mentali --- **** I GOT RESTED.

I give up.

Or we can all main jigglypuff as well. Just kidding.

Haha I like that. So you mean, playing jiggly puff would help our patience, our seriousness (how gay we decide to be against her [us evolving from a falcon punch happy falcon to a needle camping shiek *****]), and our MINDSETS?

I like that, I haven't thought of that. But man, is jigglypuff killing hard work. I wouldn't mind fighting her, to get better. : ]

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff is ridiculously hard to play against because her movement + aerials = she can attack you while protecting herself = she's hard to punish without taking trading. She has huge room for error so if she messes up, she probably won't get punished very hard. She has an amazing punish game, you mess up, you probably will get punished very hard. She is relatively not too difficult to play, meaning execution is less of a problem at high stakes and players experience less fatigue when using her in long sets.

Essentially the only best solution is for us to just get better. We will learn to consistently have better spacing. We won't be greedy with our kills. We will learn to cc -> buffer roll away when Puff tries to shield pressure you. We will learn not to challenge her aerials directly and find an alternative approach to dealing damage to her. Jigglypuff will force players to have a higher standard of play. This is a good thing. People who play against a good Puff will probably be better players overall. We will develop a stronger mentali --- **** I GOT RESTED.

I give up.

Zhu marry me in Canada.

Our babies will be gay and technical.

 

[Kanelol]

Our babies will be gay and technical.

I can respect this

 

[omgwtfToph]

A character is broken if you can pretty much just pick that character and auto-win.

Know who's hella good? Like, HELLA good? MAD ****ING GOOD? Darc. Darc is ridiculously ****ing good and is easily the 3rd best Puff after Mango and Hbox, and he got what, like 9th or 13th. To ban a character, that character has to be so good that it's unfair.

Jiggs isn't even widely acknowledged as the best character LOL. It's not that Jigglypuff is super good, it's that hbox and mango are super good. And mango doesn't even count anymore cuz he whooped on Hbox with Fox.

Just ban hungrybox if you want to make things fair LOL

(get it, because fair is the opposite of bair, and hbox = bair)

 

[ranmaru]

Nah we have to man up and come up with a strategy to beat Hbox. We just have to huddle up. All for one, one for all I say. Just kidding.