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Reexamining the possibilities of fighting Tornado

phi1ny3

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original thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10809188#post10809188


basically, you want to sdi towards the middle of the tornado (if you are on the left side you sdi right, if you are on the right side, you sdi left). remembering that the hitbox regenerates every 5 frames or so, you want to be the closest to where the hitbox begins, so then you have the most amount of time until the next hitbox appears. anyway, from there, most characters have enough time to airdodge through the nado, provided they get close enough to the centre. it definitely works with the ics, and i have got a grab out of this (pity nana never seems to follow you, but low % cgs are nice anyway). so i suppose in summary, i mash the joystick and cstick toward the centre of the nado, and mash 'r' to airdodge. you dont wanna jump cause you dont have enough time to airdodge after, and youd do too high up.
The idea is to be able to air dodge towards the ground afterward as opposed to having to use your second jump, thus giving a better position (not as important for Lucario as opposed to ICs because of dair mixups to help avoid getting knocked off, but still has potential to be incredibly useful esp. against top MKs and when you're worried of getting toppled off by a smash frame trap while landing after your jump)

You'll see DEHF use it a couple of times as falco, like here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4gshuxWUo#t=4m22s

but the example video shown in the original thread shows it more often.

Discuss.
 

-Mr. T-

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you could just sheild it. the tornado takes away like no shield at all.
 

phi1ny3

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???

depends on how good the MK is at using it. You'll see even top non-MK players getting hit by it at least 9 times a match. It doesn't take away much shield, but most moves by comparison aren't as safe, make as much reward for as little risk, and go in conjunction with lots of good pressure before (dair camping to whittle the shield) and after (anticipating the opponent's options with very little cooldown). It's definitely a move you have to watch out for when you're playing against smart MK playstyles.

It also has very good shield pressure properties, notice how nearly nobody is capable of punishing tornado oos until after, and that's if the MK messed up his pressure. two tornado sessions often = free shield poke usually.

I do agree though that rolling will help counteract shield loss, since the speed of it framewise allows you to do it the moment tornado's hitbox passes over your shield, and allows you to roll away often w/o punishment, but sometimes people don't have that chance, for that there's this (very useful at high percents where he's looking to chip your shield down while looking for you to slip ground and hit you with a kill move).
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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You guys could also DI towards the center, footstool and DAir :x. Or DI, then NAir, UAir, etc.

I mentioned not even a week ago to look at the MK hitbubbles thread in the MU thread. :p

MK's hitbubbles thread said:
 

culexus・wau

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not all the time will dair work vs nado.

it has a chance of being gay and clanking.
 

culexus・wau

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not all the time will we have an AS ready though.

or be in a position to hit them with an AS.


any MK using AS from a neutral position in this MU is lol.
 

BBQTV

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i always have an aura sphere ready just in case and even if you dont im sure a baby sphere is enough to get them out of nado
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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10% Aura Spheres are required to knock MK out of Nado.

Does anyone pay attention to my data? :/
 

tedward2000

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Lots of Numbers Mythy.
Which numbers lead to my next question, once you have reached the middle of the nado before the 5th tick, would you be able to DT?
(this is just speculation, terrible idea, but a question none the less.)
 

Kitamerby

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Lots of Numbers Mythy.
Which numbers lead to my next question, once you have reached the middle of the nado before the 5th tick, would you be able to DT?
(this is just speculation, terrible idea, but a question none the less.)
Double Team is frame 6. I HIGHLY doubt it.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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this. yesterday Nado ate my entire shield and broke it. I didnt think it could lol -_-
How is that possible? I thought a full Nado only omnommed like 2/3 of a shield max.

I don't want to start up a fight or anything, but some of the number data thingers are really important and at this point in time are crucial to moving Lucario's metagame forward.
 

Steam

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I might have just shielded something but it was pretty full and just barely broke it with like the last hitbox
 

RT

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If nado is about to break your shield, you should seriously just unshield and eat the last hit of nado rather than get hit by a fully charged fsmash and possibly die. Or roll away. Either way, MK still comes out the winner. :ohwell:
 

Shinja

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Well, the thing is you have little choice if your caught up in a nado. If MK is on the other side of the stage using tornado, I don't see us running right in there for kicks. Thats where something like AS comes in handy. But you can't use that if you're getting hit by nado up close. SDI is one of the few things you CAN do.

I know I use my shield a bit too much sometimes, so nado probably would break my shield, much like Steam accidentally did @_@
For the most part though....I just let myself get completely destroyed by it (but that could be because I suck!) and wait for the torture to end. But SDI...yeah...gotta work on that.
 

Col. Stauffenberg

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I don't want to start up a fight or anything, but some of the number data thingers are really important and at this point in time are crucial to moving Lucario's metagame forward.
It's funny how nobody who's actually going out there and accomplishing things with the character seems to think so, isn't it?

But hey, I'm sure the wifi player who went to his first tournament a month ago knows better.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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It's funny how nobody who's actually going out there and accomplishing things with the character seems to think so, isn't it?

But hey, I'm sure the wifi player who went to his first tournament a month ago knows better.
The more you know about a character the more you can do with that character, isn't that basic?

You and Zucco are the only ones who seem to have a problem with it.

Regardless, I'm still going to research Aura stuff, so its kinda useless to tell me its useless anyway.
 

Zucco

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You and Zucco are the only ones who seem to have a problem with it.
Actually, no. Stauffy and I are not the only ones. Im not about to drop names but ive talked to a few board members who also agree that alot of things you say are stupid and should be ignored.

*flys away*
 

culexus・wau

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I'mma be honest MTI some of the stuff you say is a LITTLE IFFY LOL.

Your data would be cooler if it had staleness based in :(

You're kinda annoying sometimes too.

I'm pretty tolerant, [I'm BARELY able to tolerate kita so yeah] but...
 

ksizl4life

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Actually, no. Stauffy and I are not the only ones. Im not about to drop names but ive talked to a few board members who also agree that alot of things you say are stupid and should be ignored.

*flys away*
I'm one of them.
 

culexus・wau

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I have tolerance.

I'm admitting that some of the things he says is sketchy though ["Don't tech G&W dthrow" wtf?]
 

phi1ny3

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I like MTI's work ethic, but I think it could be channeled into much more effective/productive means pertaining to the Lucario metagame. Technicality is something that comes later after you learn efficient player habits in this game, especially as a Lucario.

That's why I'm trying to make a couple of hot topics for Lucarios to understand their options and most effective tools in a scenario (for example, getting off the ledge is something a loooooot of Lucarios could work on, as is safe zoning/faking out).

For example, one of our more recent "AT's" If you want to call it that; broversal, has a lot of inherent flaws if you decide to use it for the sake of being "technically proficient" over the opponent. If you look at Trela's older videos where he'd do nothing BUT b-reversal tricks, you'll see how many times he'd get punished OVER AND OVER again by good players. Eventually, he learned the methodology behind it, and with it better habits in general, and is now as a whole a lot smarter in play than he used to be.

Basics, that's what nearly everyone needs to work on to get to the next level. Even something as borderline useful as frame knowledge is a very bad way to build your gameplay on, because you'll still have no idea how to deal with zoning. Even tech chases are a misnomer; they're more like "reaction chases", as I've learned. People who get a good handle of these can increase their options, limit their predictability, keep tools at their utmost use, handle MUs better as a whole, etc. the possibilities are endless.

This is a little of the reason I've kind of been on-and-off on SWF boards. I have looooots to improve on, and I have a lot of fun getting critique and going over movements and patterns that work.

tl;dr you can still be super flashy, but you notice the biggest contributions in modern brawl are reapplication and discovery of **** essentials (ie. DEHF's use of ftilt for a mixup/resetting tool). Develop the metagame of YOU
 

culexus・wau

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Kinda sums up what I wanted to say on MTI at least.

+ other goodies.

Trela if you namesearched this and read this please help me learn to BROVERSAL at Apex.

B-reversals are easy, BROVERSALS are hard.
 
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